Girlfriend needs "space" but "doesn't want to break up" - splitting?

[BurningPile]

My girlfriend (we are both 22) of 7 years isn't diagnosed with BPD but has many of the trademark symptoms. She has issues with favorite people, she has debilitating abandonment issues, she can be very hyper-sexual, mood switches very quickly, she splits, history of depression and self harm and anxiety, she has impulse control issues and she self sabotages, among other things. She has so many symptoms that for simplicity, I approach my life as if she is diagnosed because so much of what I read sounds just like her. She's been open with me about this and has confided in me a lot over our relationship. She usually doesn't direct any of the negative reactions at me very much and if she does, it's small and short lived. I know she doesn't mean anything by it and it's easy to dismiss and just try to support her through it.

She has issues wanting attention from older men. I've known about it, and it isn't sexual majority of the time. She's open with me. Most of her favorite people end up being men in their 50s. Her father wasn't around as a child and that has given her a lot of issues that she still deals with, especially with the drawing to older men. Anyway, about a year ago she got a new job and her manager ended up being a man in his mid 50s. She became really close with him, he became a favorite person. The thing is this guy is kind of a pervert, he hits on all the women he works with, especially the younger ones. He objectifies them. I was oblivious to how bad this was until my girlfriend told me she had met him outside of work when she went on a run just to talk. She didn't see this as an issue herself and openly told me, but I immediately saw this as overstepping boundaries and she felt very bad. We talked more and it turned out that he was EXTREMELY flirtatious with her at work, and she reciprocated. It seemed he even thought they had some type of affair going on and was confused when he found out I knew she had gone and saw him outside of work. They didn't do anything inappropriate physically but people knew they had this tension, and rumors about them having sex went around the store. My girlfriend showed a lot of remorse about this after talking to me about it and temporarily seemed to have more boundaries with him like not talking out of work and not being flirtatious back, and letting him know I knew and was uncomfortable. I truly believe she was remorseful and felt bad, but she still works with him every day, and is the assistant manager in a department with only 4 people, so it's him and her working one on one a lot. I've made it clear to her I felt very hurt and threatened by this and like I said, I do think she felt bad initially but it seemed to fade. Pretty soon, she was very standoffish about it and seemed to not be sympathetic to me at all. It really messed with me and my perception of myself when it happened, and I've been struggling with low self esteem since April. I'm sympathetic to her because I know she didn't mean to hurt me and I know it took a toll on her. She said he wasn't like a favorite person anymore after this happened, but it's hard to know for sure. Anyways, I've been struggling since April. She's seemed distant from me since then, and I'll admit the topic has come up multiple times because she would keep asking about seeing him after work. It would be somewhat work related, because it would be after they did inventory which was an odd shift from 2 to like 11 or so, and she paints it as if they're just going to debrief almost or celebrate for getting it done. The thing about it is that it's just the two of them, so that makes me uncomfortable after what happened. I tried to put my foot down and just tell her I wasn't okay with it, but she couldn't take that as an answer. It always turned into a huge thing about how I control everything she does, when really, I only was telling her this ONE thing I wasn't okay with, and for good reason. I told her over and over again too that I don't want her to leave her job or hate her boss. I want her to be happy at work and I'm glad she likes her job, but I just am not healed from what happened and seeing him outside of work is upsetting to me. It just kept coming up because she keeps trying to see him even after I've been so clear about not being comfortable and it created distance between us. Last time we talked I told her to just do it if she wanted, because I do trust her and don't think anything will happen, I just wish she would've respected how I felt and she never did... It started off as little fights and arguments about it every few weeks but in general, I've been depressed and have had no self esteem and inadvertently pushed her away. In hindsight, I think what I wanted was reassurance from her that I was enough still, but I didn't realize or communicate that.

Fast forward to 2 days ago, I have a breakdown. I've been wearing so thin and have felt so unsupported, she mentioned that she had to go to work to give something to her boss that another higher up had given to her to give to him that day and she forgot. I didn't like that and wished she didn't have to go in on her day off but she said she didn't care or mind. I was just so frustrated and just triggered by it, I went silent and didn't talk. She didn't pry, but I literally didn't talk at all and we sat in silence for hours. I felt miserable. All I wanted was to take back my reaction and be comforted by her, but I didn't say anything. Eventually I did breakdown and was sobbing, I think I had a panic attack. She responded coldly to me, and I told her I just wanted to hold her and she seemed inconvenienced almost. Just totally emotionally removed from me. I was shocked by this. I know it's not uncommon for her to get frustrated when I don't communicate well but I was being clear with her and telling her I was sorry I didn't talk, I wasn't mad, I just was feeling so sad about myself and I'm sorry that I was taking it out on her. She didn't really say anything and seemed like she was trying to rush my reaction almost and was just like "I don't know what you want me to do". So the next morning, I didn't feel right about that. She was so cold to me, it offended me. I wanted to talk to her about what I think I need and how I knew I needed to be more present for her. I texted her at first because she had previously asked if "we were okay", so I said I wasn't mad but wanted to talk, and that I needed help and support. It immediately felt very hostile and tense, and she said she was busy and couldn't talk anymore. I was hurt by that because I just told her I needed help and support and her reaction was to ignore me. Then she made more plans so she wouldn't be able to pick me up from work like she almost always does and I had to walk home, which wouldn't normally bother me but with all the context, it felt really cold and hurtful.

When she got home, we talked and I've just felt devastated since. I started by trying to tell her I know I've been distant and I haven't been there, and I want to be better. She just said she was "used to it". She seemed completely emotionless, and unwilling to even talk to me. The only emotion she showed seemed to be irritation. Admittedly, I was trying to get her to talk and she didn't seem like she wanted to I regret pushing her to but she said some of the most hurtful things I've ever heard. She told me she didn't know what she wanted, that she's felt more like just friends for the past year, that she "wants me in her life still", insinuating she doesn't know in what way. I personally don't think that's the truth. We very recently discussed our future in multiple ways, we were sexually active quite a bit just last month, we are in the process of getting a new car, stuff like that. I don't think she means it when she says it, or at least it's not true to that extent. I think she just feels distant, but is convincing herself that's the truth. If she's convinced it's the truth, I feel like it doesn't even matter if it is or not. She told me she was only happy at work and she was miserable every time she came home because I was here. She told me she felt like I wasn't attracted to her anymore, but also that I smother her. She said she's jealous of other couples but wouldn't explain why. She said we "have nothing in common". I feel completely blindsided. I know I've been having a hard time and haven't been as close lately but it wasn't anything that bad, I thought. I think she hadn't felt comfortable coming to me for the last few months and as a result, has a huge emotional build up and has now split, seeing me as the only issue in her life. She told me at first she didn't know if she wanted to be with me, but eventually did say she wanted to try, but it felt unconvincing and was said with little emotion. She said she's still attracted to me, still loves me, still wants me in her life, but was so cold and distant when she said everything, it's like she wasn't there. She wouldn't look at me. I asked her too why she wouldn't and she just said she "didn't know". She told me that there's nobody else in her life, and I believe her, but I just don't know what to do. I think she is distancing herself on purpose to protect herself, and she's convinced herself to give up on the relationship almost. She told me she wanted space just to go to the store for an hour, and I told her that was fine and that I'd get everything done at home so when she came back I'd be in bed and we don't have to talk. Prior to that I offered to find somewhere else to stay (we live together), but she said she didn't want that and that if I really needed to, I could go to a different room instead. She's not normally like this. I know she has her faults obviously but she doesn't turn on me like this. She stayed as far away from me as she could last night and didn't seem like she cried or anything. I could barely sleep. I got maybe 4 hours and haven't ate in over 48 hours now. I have no appetite.

I'm completely broken. I know I wasn't there for her but this feels like a huge reaction out of nowhere. I was going to her to tell her I wanted to be better and she seemed completely disinterested in me and was rejecting me to my face. She left for work this morning without saying anything. I work until 630, so I won't be seeing her until later. I just don't know what to do. I'm terrified she's going to break up with me, even though she said she didn't want to eventually. I am uncomfortable that it took her so long to say it. She got reactive when I asked if it was an abandonment thing and she was pushing me away, and accused me of "only liking her when she's sick", primarily because I sometimes get uncomfortable when she talked about work so much  (due to what happened), insinuating I don't want her to be happy at work. Which just isn't true. I'm afraid to mention anything about BPD to her right now even though she does believe she has it, because she's been saying she's doing perfectly fine, except for me. I think she's convinced herself I am the piece that doesn't fit and that I am the issue making her unhappy and that other than me, she is happy and well. I don't buy that because happy well people don't act cold and unfeeling like this. I think realistically what it actually is, is that I wasn't as supportive, so she has kept all her feelings inside and is now resentful towards me. How can I get her to open up again? I am giving her space. I intend to send her a message once she gets off of work that says I can sleep in a  different room tonight to give her the space she needs and that I am sorry for not being there, that I don't want to leave her, and that I'm here when she's ready. I want to highlight that I will give her the space she's asked for but I don't want to go either. I won't abandon her, but I also won't trap her. I'm going to wait to send it to her after she gets out of work because I don't want her to think I'm trying to ruin her day at work or something. I'm just so afraid of saying or doing something wrong right now. I love her more than anything and I feel terrible that I pushed her away, but I feel terrible too that she can say these awful things to me. I want to give her space but I'm scared that the space will make her feel better temporarily and she will convince herself I am the issue and leave me. Because of course it'll feel better briefly to be apart when we weren't getting along but i think the issue goes deeper than that and she's not realizing it.

It's not like her to be so cruel. It really isn't. I'm just riddled with anxiety and fear of doing the wrong thing. If she is splitting, how can I help her through that and how can I be supportive without being overbearing? Is giving space a bad idea? I don't want her to leave me. I don't think the relationship is done. She did explicitly say she didn't want to break up but I don't know. It's hard to trust somebody after what she said. I just feel absolutely empty right now and so anxious. This is when I need her the most, and I feel completely rejected. I'm terrified she's going to leave me. What can I do to make her see clearly or get on her good side? How can I support her from a  distance? Does this seem like splitting? I know she told me she doesn't want to separate and just needs space but it's so hard to trust anything after she said those other things. I just want to be the best I can be for her and I feel like since I failed in my time of need, she's completely boxing me out.if it is a split,'how can she snap out of it? How can I help her feel connected to me again?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cluster Beeline]

I feel nothing but empathy for you and your suffering--I have been in similar positions several times. You are only 22 and have so much life in front of you. And because of this I am going to be honest with you.

Your internal turmoil stems from a conflict between your unconscious mind which is perfectly aware that your girlfriend is cheating on you with this older man and your conscious mind which is attempting to rationalize away and suppress this extremely painful reality.

Your suffering is the cornerstone of a triangulation that your girlfriend has created with the older man. You are experiencing and expressing the pain she felt when her mother provoked whatever primal trauma that causes your girlfriend to suffer from BPD. When your girlfriend sees you in bed suffering, she is reliving her childhood trauma--but this time from a position of power. She is playing the mother role and you are playing your girlfriends suffering inner child. She is able to create this suffering through the engulfment of her father figure--the older man.

None of this is her fault, nor is she able to stop the process. She has a mental illness and cannot be "talked into" becoming normal. She suffered during childhood and has an obsessive drive to relive that experience. It will be with her for the rest of her life. You cannot shame her into stopping by expressing your emotional pain.

Expressing your suffering to her only reinforces the cycle and drives her closer to the old man. If you were to remove yourself from this triangulation, the reality of his exploitation of her will no longer be balanced by the thrill of your pain. Their relationship will soon fall apart.

There are three ways to end a triangulation. One is to remove yourself from the toxic dynamic and have no contact with the other two points of the triangle. Second is to remove any distance between you and the older man. This would mean encouraging her to have the relationship and to not be bothered by it. The third way is grey rock: to ignore the relationship and to give no emotional reinforcement back to her.

I'll leave it up to you to decide which of these strategies would work best for you.

[MimeticoPatetico]

Your situation is very similar to mine, except fast forward ten years, I married her, and we have two young children.

I believe you are experiencing a lot more than just splitting.  BPD is very complex. I recommend you read 'I Hate You, Don't Leave Me'. According to this book, she has you in a dungeon.

None of what she is doing is your fault. Do not blame yourself.  Even if you were a perfect partner, she would still have BPD and you would suffer her abuse.

You have a choice about whether you want to stay with her or not. She broke your trust, perhaps the most important aspect of any relationship.  To begin restoring trust, she has a lot of work to do. She must make things right, without anyone, especially you, telling her what to do. Even then, trust may never be fully restored. I recommend you create an exit plan.

Regardless which option you choose, I recommend you find a therapist for yourself, to examine codependency,  and also your PTSD from her cheating. 

Beware that BPD isn't limited to cheating. If you decide to stay with her, there are many other facets to what you may experience in your future relationship. BPD only goes into remission, it isn't cured and there aren't any pills to make it go away.  Research suggests some symptoms can be addressed with specific therapies, others are more persistent because we don't have a treatment for them yet.

Also think about your future. It is hard or impossible to make long term plans with a BPD person.  With a normal partner, in a strong relationship,  you should be able to set and achieve long term goals. You can't do this with a BPD partner because there is always a non-zero chance of relapse, and you don't know what she will be like in a year (or next month). This is confounded by the fact she is undiagnosed.  For success, she needs to become self aware, and really lean in to creating a strong identity for herself.

For partners of BPD, the odds are heavily stacked against us achieving success. Sorry this isn't encouraging. 

Definitely put yourself first, because you have already suffered great damage from this person.  Search for 'infidelity' on www.gottman.com. They have some blogs that you may identify with.

I wish you well.

[BunnyFace29]

I don't have advice because I'm in the exact same boat, only I'm only. Husband just turned 30, I'm 28. Been together 11 years and have an almost 4-year-old and he's been like this for almost 8 of our 11 years together. I didn't know what BPD was until recently, learned about it in college as a "primarily women's disorder" so didn't even consider it or how the symptoms may present in men.

There have been affairs as a form of self-sabotage and self-harm. Driving too fast, drinking too much. Joining the military, infantry division. Suicidal ideation. When everything is fine, he is my best friend. He is not a bad person, but he is a suffering person, and while I love him with all my heart and he has given me a beautiful little girl, I am aware of the cost. If he was Icarus and I was Daedalus I am tearing the hot wax from my own wings to give to him. I am letting my fingers blister and bubble to patch the feathers together as he rockets back and forth between the froth and the sky. It's not his fault, it's not mine either. But I'm choosing not to let go and I am living with what that means.

I don't think you've done something bad. I don't think you've done something wrong. I do think you both need therapy. She needs specific DBT therapy, as that can help address the BPD symptoms, or so I hear. You can just benefit from having someone to ground you, to talk to.

Good luck to you. Good luck to us both.

[Skip]

I believe there are a couple of things going on here.

1. Your GF is getting a lot of positive feedback from her boss, and like any employee, she is seeking it. The boss, however, is skating on the edge of inappropriateness. Your girlfriend may be feel at some level of not wanting to compromise her job standing by shutting him down and feels she can handle it. And she probably likes the attention. Of course, this is a risk situations.

2. You are very concerned about this (which is reasonable) and it is making you feel insecure (which is understandable) and you are reaching out for her to comfort you, which she did at first... But now she feels you are being needy and smothering her.

Does this seem like an accurate description of the situation?

If so, in the short term, and dealing with the cards that are dealt, I would completely drop the neediness. No silent treatment. Not lashing out. No crying. Show her the best you right now.

Hopefully, this cools the tension between the two of you. When it does, I would be tell her that any "outside of work" contact should include others. Either other workers or you.

Long term, you two need to have a conversation about commitment and how both of you avoid compromising situations. An important part of that is to loop each other into the "circle". For example, I have developed a close relationship with a women in our community because we are working together on a community project. I like her. She is also attractive and single. I have encouraged /facilitated her and my partner becoming friends. So much so that she will relay messages to me through my partner at times as if she and I are one. I'm a very loyal person, however, I have not naivety on how affairs innocently start.

Does this help?

[MimeticoPatetico]

If he was Icarus and I was Daedalus I am tearing the hot wax from my own wings to give to him. I am letting my fingers blister and bubble to patch the feathers together as he rockets back and forth between the froth and the sky. It's not his fault, it's not mine either. But I'm choosing not to let go and I am living with what that means.

This really hits. Great allegory - you have a way with words.  May all of us who choose not to let go, have success.

[BurningPile]

I believe there are a couple of things going on here.

1. Your GF is getting a lot of positive feedback from her boss, and like any employee, she is seeking it. The boss, however, is skating on the edge of inappropriateness. Your girlfriend may be feel at some level of not wanting to compromise her job standing by shutting him down and feels she can handle it. And she probably likes the attention. Of course, this is a risk situations.

2. You are very concerned about this (which is reasonable) and it is making you feel insecure (which is understandable) and you are reaching out for her to comfort you, which she did at first... But now she feels you are being needy and smothering her.

Does this seem like an accurate description of the situation?

If so, in the short term, and dealing with the cards that are dealt, I would completely drop the neediness. No silent treatment. Not lashing out. No crying. Show her the best you right now.

Hopefully, this cools the tension between the two of you. When it does, I would be tell her that any "outside of work" contact should include others. Either other workers or you.

Long term, you two need to have a conversation about commitment and how both of you avoid compromising situations. An important part of that is to loop each other into the "circle". For example, I have developed a close relationship with a women in our community because we are working together on a community project. I like her. She is also attractive and single. I have encouraged /facilitated her and my partner becoming friends. So much so that she will relay messages to me through my partner at times as if she and I are one. I'm a very loyal person, however, I have not naivety on how affairs innocently start.

Does this help?

That does sound accurate and does help. The only additional thing I have to say is that we've talked about it in depth before like when it first came to light, and she felt truly remorseful and guilty. She came to me about it for a little after that too, letting me know she didn't really feel as close to him after especially because he treated her not as well after she backed up and stopped being so responsive. It was good at first, but I just struggled with handling my end of it. I told her I understood it isn't easy to deal with that when it's your boss who is supposed to be acting professionally, especially when you have a mental disorder that  makes you extra vulnerable to people who abuse their power like that. She agreed initially but now I think she shuts me out and thinks I just hate the guy so everything I say is coming from a place of hatred.

That's a good idea to say i should go along with them, because her boss actually suggested that. I previously told her I don't know if I'd ever want to meet him because that's how I felt. However, my way of dealing with my feelings about it hasn't worked. I think meeting him actually is better than not. I'm nervous she won't want that though. I think she might like keeping that part of her life away from me now because she knows it upset me before. Will it come off as too confusing to her if all of a sudden I tell her I want to meet him? And how should I react if she says she doesn't want me to?

Since she asked for space, I've been not communicating with her unless she has reached out. She did yesterday but hasn't yet today, though she's been keeping busy hanging out with my sister. I don't know when she will come home or if today is the today she will want to talk. I'm terrified for what she has to say.

[Skip]

There are three ways to end a triangulation. One is to remove yourself from the toxic dynamic and have no contact with the other two points of the triangle. Second is to remove any distance between you and the older man. This would mean encouraging her to have the relationship and to not be bothered by it. The third way is grey rock: to ignore the relationship and to give no emotional reinforcement back to her.

Hi Cluster.

I wanted to comment on this a bit. When you say "triangulation" do you actually mean "love triangle"? These are very different psychology concepts.

Love triangle: My understand from reading the OP is that he doesn't believe they are in a relationship - rather she is idealizing him as the "bestest boss ever" and they spend a lot of work time together.

Triangulation: Is when two people are in conflict and rather than resolve it together, one seeks a third party to agree and support their side of the conflict. It is a common human dynamic. Everyone does it to some extent.

I'm not sure either of these are at play.  

The tools for handling triangulation are discussed here https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle  No contact and passive aggression (grey rock) are not on the list.  

[BurningPile]

Love triangle: My understand from reading the OP is that he doesn't believe they are in a relationship - rather she is idealizing him as the "bestest boss ever" and they spend a lot of work time together.

This is correct. She wants attention from him and that's really it. I just have a difficult time accepting it since he misread it previously and I feel like it threatened our relationship. I don't think it's really her fault or even that she's "cheating" as two people above said. She is seeking attention and validation from somebody, and that somebody just happens to not have good boundaries and is imo pretty perverted. She knows that though, and has made it apparent they aren't interacting like that. She even told him that I didn't like how he treated her. I think she just still is seeking that approval and validation, now more than ever because we haven't been as close. On top of that, he is leaving the store in about a year, so now I think she feels the weight and strain of him "abandoning" her soon.

[Skip]

Since she asked for space, I've been not communicating with her unless she has reached out. She did yesterday but hasn't yet today, though she's been keeping busy hanging out with my sister. I don't know when she will come home or if today is the today she will want to talk. I'm terrified for what she has to say.

Try to hang loose here and do not freak out if she comes back in a negative mindset. That will make things worse.

You might send her a very brief text, like Having a little space helps. Thanks. I'm sorry I have been difficult. I'm in a better place now.

Don't ask her any questions. Don't ask her how she feels. Don't ask her to come home. Don't do anything that can be interpreted as being needy.

When she come home, if she doesn't bring up talking, let it slide. If she does, just listen, listen and listen. Afterward.. tell her you want to think about what she is saying and tell her "let's pick this up tomorrow". Don't react.

Get in a fun mood as best you can. Cook up some good food. Have a glass of wine. Listen upbeat music.

Let's turn "burning pile" into a "phoenix rising from the ashes"

Be cool. Upbeat. Confident.

[BurningPile]

Try to hang loose here and do not freak out if she comes back in a negative mindset. That will make things worse.

Let's turn "burning pile" into a "phoenix rising from the ashes"

Be cool. Upbeat. Confident.

This is very helpful... I'm worried about spooking her but also don't want to let all the issues slide. I'm thinking we need to build up some general trust and comfort with one another before we address those things though.

Burning pile, to be fair, is a song! But I have also felt like one! It says "All my troubles on a burning pile
All lit up and I start to smile
If I catch fire then I'll change my aim
Throw my troubles at the world again" and also "all my troubles on a burning pile
All lit up and I start to smile
If I catch fire then I'll take my turn
To burn and burn and burn"

Which admittedly I've related to through this!

A slight concern though, could being too confident and relaxed possibly rub her the wrong way, as in she won't think that I've missed her or anything? I know with BPD, or suspected anyway, it can go back and forth with what the needs are and it changes a lot, so maybe if she's just feeling trapped right now, the solution she is looking for is me to be okay with that space. But when she comes backs me, (hoping she does more than anything (( ) she will want the reassurance to some degree again. Maybe by just being calm and letting her know affirmatively that I want to work things out will be enough to reassure her. But then again, I might be looking too far into the future here. I should focus on the now and what my next move is, not what the next 10 moves should be. 

[BurningPile]

This is very helpful... I'm worried about spooking her but also don't want to let all the issues slide. I'm thinking we need to build up some general trust and comfort with one another before we address those things though.

Burning pile, to be fair, is a song! But I have also felt like one! It says "All my troubles on a burning pile
All lit up and I start to smile
If I catch fire then I'll change my aim
Throw my troubles at the world again" and also "all my troubles on a burning pile
All lit up and I start to smile
If I catch fire then I'll take my turn
To burn and burn and burn"

Which admittedly I've related to through this!

A slight concern though, could being too confident and relaxed possibly rub her the wrong way, as in she won't think that I've missed her or anything? I know with BPD, or suspected anyway, it can go back and forth with what the needs are and it changes a lot, so maybe if she's just feeling trapped right now, the solution she is looking for is me to be okay with that space. But when she comes backs me, (hoping she does more than anything) she will want the reassurance to some degree again. Maybe by just being calm and letting her know affirmatively that I want to work things out will be enough to reassure her. But then again, I might be looking too far into the future here. I should focus on the now and what my next move is, not what the next 10 moves should be. 

[Skip]

A slight concern though, could being too confident and relaxed possibly rub her the wrong way, as in she won't think that I've missed her or anything?  

She said "smothered". She didn't want to talk about it anymore. She asked for "space".

It's important listen to what she is telling you... end the drama. She got the message that you don't like it (and agrees to some extent). She know you want her. However, the horse got beat to death - there was some no-so-great coping on your side. The one thing you don't want to do is re-catalyze this drama - that's what she wanted space from.

Be confident. Denzel Washington, George Clooney, Brad Pit, Tom Cruise.

Don't be dramatic (or aloof): William H. Macy, Nicolas Cage, Al Pacino

[BurningPile]

She said "smothered". She didn't want to talk about it anymore. She asked for "space".

It's important listen to what she is telling you... end the drama. She got the message that you don't like it (and agrees to some extent). She know you want her. However, the horse got beat to death - there was some no-so-great coping on your side. The one thing you don't want to do is re-catalyze this drama - that's what she wanted space from.

Be confident. Denzel Washington, George Clooney, Brad Pit, Tom Cruise.

Don't be dramatic (or aloof): William H. Macy, Nicolas Cage, Al Pacino

You are capturing this extremely well and I really cannot say how much I appreciate that. I did text her to just say that I hoped she was doing okay, and that I hoped the space was helpful for her, and that it helped me, thanked her for letting me know she needed it, and then giving that space, and that I feel better since when I tried talking before. Then I said I was sorry I was difficult before and that I was here if she needed anything. She IMMEDIATELY responded and said "Thank you for being understanding the space is helping me think. If you need anything as well let me know", then told me what she was making for dinner (I don't know if this is an invite) and also let me know she switched my laundry. I said thank you for that, not prying into if she wants to have dinner together or if she was just mentioning it. I don't want to read it wrong and seem like I desperately want to have dinner with her.

I'm not home, I actually went back to work to just spend time with my coworkers because I'd rather be out than at home. My girlfriend isn't home either. I didn't mention that I left, but she does have my location shared to her phone so maybe she saw already. Not sure if I should mention it or wait for it to come up somehow.

[Skip]

Well done.

I'd sit back and wait for her to reconnect and then just follow her lead - don't try to pull her - let he push for now.

Have you read about J.A.D.E on this website?

[BurningPile]

Well done.

I'd sit back and wait for her to reconnect and then just follow her lead - don't try to pull her - let he push for now.

Have you read about J.A.D.E on this website?

I just looked into it now. I feel terrible because I do that. I definitely have an issue with over explaining and trying to double down to justify and explain myself. I struggle with not feeling heard, not by her specifically but just in general. In the past, I've had long conversations about BPD with her and I do that, but many of them she didn't seem unhappy with me but she would point out that I was being repetitive and I'd apologize. It seems kind of complicated too, like sometimes it's helpful and sometimes it's unhelpful and unhealthy.

It's definitely a lot to learn about and take in. I've been trying to read up on new things to see if I think they're relevant to the symptoms my girlfriend has, and I'll be honest, most of it has been just painting the person with BPD as a monster, I feel like. And I get why, but I can't feel that way towards my girlfriend. I feel so bad that she suffers so much. I know she doesn't want me to suffer either. You've been helpful in the sense that you're addressing it as if she's a person with needs that need to be met when she can't communicate them, and not as if she is a master manipulator deliberately trying to play mind games with me. And that helps. Some of the J.A.D.E. discussion I read seemed like it was directed more at the person without BPD and how you can better communicate and that's exactly what I need to learn about. I feel really bad that I've been responding to her in a way that probably is triggering. For example, I can't tell you how many times this past month or so she has said "okay you're right I'm wrong" and disengages. And it's never my intention to prove I'm right even, I just want to be clear and heard, but it pushes her away.

[Cluster Beeline]

Hi Skip,

When I use the term triangulation, I am setting up a binary where a bilateral affair is at the opposite extreme of the spectrum. In an affair (emotional or physical) driven by triangulation, the purpose is the emotional charge created by the flow of energy/tension between the aggrieved partner and the intruding third-party. For example, the intruder gets idealized by having illicit access to another man's woman. This feeds the BPD cheater's desire for powerful emotional experiences. This intense emotion momentarily soothes the BPD's fear of abandonment. As at the same time the aggrieved partner gets devalued, this places the cheater in a detached position of emotional power, which regulates the BPD's fear of engulfment.

In a pure bilateral affair, the purpose is to feed the selfish desires of the cheater. He or she attempts to hide the presence of the other party from each of his other partners. There is no intermingling of energy. The classic example is at a man's funeral when a woman with a couple kids approaches the grieving widow and explains that she had no idea the widow's dead husband, who is the father of this woman's kids, was married.

These are two ideal types on the extreme ends of the spectrum and most actual cases will fall somewhere in between. These are observations from my empirical experiences and I apologize if they don't match up with official lingo.

With the triangulation affair, since the (unconscious) goal for the cheater is the exchange of emotional energy between the the two other parties, the strategy for the aggrieved partner is to cut off this flow of energy. Obviously the easiest way is to exit completely the triangular relationship.

But for those seeking to continue they are only left two options. One is to close any distance between the aggrieved and intrusive parties. Your idea of all three spending time together is a brilliant example of this. That would totally disrupt the current dynamic and energy flows since being all together would tend to "friendzone" the intruder, and raise the status of the aggrieved partner. 

The other way is what I perhaps mistakenly called "grey rock." What I mean is for the aggrieved partner to totally disinvest emotionally from his partner's relationship with the intrusive partner. This is captured in your very correct advise to Burningpile to "drop the neediness" and other advise to keep a neutral tone during this crisis. My point is perhaps broader, that by never emotionally responding to the appearance of the intrusive partner, the BPD partner will have less of a motivation to engage in this activity in the future.

This emotional neutrality is of course difficult to execute but for someone invested in a relationship with a BPD, this mindset of emotional neutrality is an important tool to deploy when these situations arise. But since most of us had no idea that we were getting involved with a BPD until it was too late, it normally takes a few of these situations before we are able to hone our ability to control our emotional responses.

[Skip]

Hi CB.

I'll copy your post to a thread of it's own to talk (hopefully with others) about your concepts.

For Burning Pile, I will just respond to this comment.

What I mean is for the aggrieved partner to totally disinvest emotionally from his partner's relationship with the intrusive partner. This is captured in your very correct advise to Burningpile to "drop the neediness" and other advise to keep a neutral tone during this crisis. My point is perhaps broader, that by never emotionally responding to the appearance of the intrusive partner, the BPD partner will have less of a motivation to engage in this activity in the future.

This emotional neutrality is of course difficult to execute but for someone invested in a relationship with a BPD, this mindset of emotional neutrality is an important tool to deploy when these situations arise.

I really appreciate your response.

I think we are saying something different and in some ways, something similar.

I'm not encouraging Burning pile to "divest emotionally". I'm suggesting that he not give into his insecurities and respond to a difficult situation with self-defeating behaviors (silence, anger, crying, withdrawal, etc.). We all have this in us - we need to keep it in check. Before you can make anything better, you have to stop making it worse.

Keep things in perspective (example; there is no affair here), react in mature and constructive ways, be strong, be patient, play the long game. Reasonableness and accountability by both partners is a goal that we want to make progress towards.

I would recommend this to any man in a relationship with any women.

Relationships are difficult to navigate. BPD relationships are harder still. Its important to know our values and when enough is enough and it's time to let go. It's better to decide what these values are when we are not in conflict as we will have a more balanced perspective.

[BurningPile]

I'm not encouraging Burning pile to "divest emotionally". I'm suggesting that he not give into his insecurities and respond to a difficult situation with self-defeating behaviors (silence, anger, crying, withdrawal, etc.). We all have this in us - we need to keep it in check. Before you can make anything better, you have to stop making it worse.

Keep things in perspective (example; there is no affair here), react in mature and constructive ways, be strong, be patient, play the long game. Reasonableness and accountability by both partners is a goal that we want to make progress towards.

This explains very well what I would like to strive for. Like I mentioned above, my girlfriend is not a nasty or mean person by any means. Her treating me coldly was completely unlike her and I think she feels bad about it but I also think I pushed her to that point, unknowingly, by not communicating properly. We spent the day together, it felt like when we were younger and hadn't started dating quite yet, but that tension is there, where you know it's more than friends but not quite dating. That space is still there but it's not necessarily a negative one even... she laughed a lot and we had fun. We didn't do anything special, just went shopping for dinner and some stuff for our dog, then made dinner together, ate together. She offered to have me stay in the bedroom tonight, and was smiling when she did. I told her it was up to her, and she said she wanted me to.she also confirmed plans together for this Saturday and told me she wished she was off work tomorrow so we could hang out, and confirmed that we would be spending time together again tomorrow. She definitely is letting me back in and I think the space was primarily for her to cool off. I think my coolness has helped too. Because I obviously wasn't all that cool before, like when I made the post, but I didn't ever show her that reaction through this.

I am a bit concerned about when and how to bring up talking about the underlying issues that got us here. I know better than to mention it outright especially at this tender place. She didn't show any hesitance sharing information about her work or her boss, so I think that's a good sign she does feel she can come to me about certain things still.... I also mentioned that her boss showed up as requested friend for me on Facebook, mainly to get across to her that I know she very recently friended him, but I brought it up by saying "I just found it funny", because in a way I did.  She didn't react in any particular negative way to this, and we just kept talking about her coworkers from other departments that she is friends with. It seemed to go over well and hopefully got across that she can talk about work and him without me being reactive. That's the most prying I really did. I tried using S.E.T. communication structure for discussing some things about work with her that she brought up and she responded positively to everything I said...

My plan is to focus on the closeness and regaining a connection between us. I want there to be stability there before I try mentioning the underlying issues. I am making a list in my notes on my phone of some of the things I want to say and I'm formatting them in the S.E.T. structure, so support, empathy and truth, as a way to communicate ideas. I don't want to drop anything heavy on her and the first pinpoint I have is that I want to go slow and we can stop at any time. Because I think that's true... anyway, I'm babbling. Like I said above, I have a tendency to go on and on and I've done that in a maladaptive way at times and I fear it's made my girlfriend feel like I treat her like an idiot, so I'm working on it.