My tolerance for BPD mother is low

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Lately, I have snapped back at her when she calls me. I don't like that I do it. It's that when she speaks to me, it's lying and manipulation. She knows she's lying and does it on purpose and finally I will say "and you expect me to believe this?".

She doesn't call me to just talk to me. The reason for her phone call is one thing. She needs help with transfering money from her savings to her checking. I'd put it all in her checking at this point but I let her tell me what to do because she needs to be in control and it is her money. If I do anything else with it, she would blame me for something happening to it.

So the phone call starts with her promising to be more careful with her money and all kinds of false statements and complaints about her situation, and then, at the end- but "just this one time I need you to transfer $ " and then, I just snap "so this is what all this is about".

It's crazy making because she isn't direct and goes through all this circular talk, much of it not being true,  before getting to the point. If I ask her any questions about a bill or charge she will say "she doesn't remember" but she keeps track of her checks that she writes. If I mention that she can see her bank account info on her phone she will claim she can't- but whenever her checking gets low she calls me and knows what is there but pretends she doesn't. If she asks me a question and I try to explain something to her, she claims her hearing is poor and can't hear me.

So basically, it's a one way conversation where she circles around the issue and then, gets to the point. Asking questions, trying to say something- the response either isn't true, or she "doesn't remember" or "can't hear what I say".

She will still be able to cover her basic expenses with her income- but without her savings, it will be a tight budget for her. She acts as if she's concerned but doesn't change her behavior.

This post is a vent of sorts but also about me. I don't like it that I snap at her. My tone of voice is angry. It's not about the money, it's these manipulative conversations - the lies, the pretending not to remember or hear me. It's frustrating to have this kind of conversation. I haven't considered NC with her before and I don't think I could completely do that, but also being angry and frustrated when speaking to her isn't productive either.

I block her periodically because I don't want to get angry at her on the phone. Maybe it's better to just lessen contact with her and when her checking account gets low, expect this kind of phone call and just stay quiet and listen until she gets to the point.

[Notwendy]

Lately, I have snapped back at her when she calls me. I don't like that I do it. It's that when she speaks to me, it's lying and manipulation. She knows she's lying and does it on purpose and finally I will say "and you expect me to believe this?".

She doesn't call me to just talk to me. The reason for her phone call is one thing. She needs help with transfering money from her savings to her checking. I'd put it all in her checking at this point but I let her tell me what to do because she needs to be in control and it is her money. If I do anything else with it, she would blame me for something happening to it.

So the phone call starts with her promising to be more careful with her money and all kinds of false statements and complaints about her situation, and then, at the end- but "just this one time I need you to transfer $ " and then, I just snap "so this is what all this is about".

It's crazy making because she isn't direct and goes through all this circular talk, much of it not being true,  before getting to the point. If I ask her any questions about a bill or charge she will say "she doesn't remember" but she keeps track of her checks that she writes. If I mention that she can see her bank account info on her phone she will claim she can't- but whenever her checking gets low she calls me and knows what is there but pretends she doesn't. If she asks me a question and I try to explain something to her, she claims her hearing is poor and can't hear me.

So basically, it's a one way conversation where she circles around the issue and then, gets to the point. Asking questions, trying to say something- the response either isn't true, or she "doesn't remember" or "can't hear what I say".

She will still be able to cover her basic expenses with her income- but without her savings, it will be a tight budget for her. She acts as if she's concerned but doesn't change her behavior.

This post is a vent of sorts but also about me. I don't like it that I snap at her. My tone of voice is angry. It's not about the money, it's these manipulative conversations - the lies, the pretending not to remember or hear me. It's frustrating to have this kind of conversation. I haven't considered NC with her before and I don't think I could completely do that, but also being angry and frustrated when speaking to her isn't productive either.

I block her periodically because I don't want to get angry at her on the phone. Maybe it's better to just lessen contact with her and when her checking account gets low, expect this kind of phone call and just stay quiet and listen until she gets to the point.

[kells76]

Do you have independent visibility on her checking account levels? I.e., is the only way you know what's in her checking account if she reports the value to you? Or can you find that out yourself?

She doesn't like any of your approaches. So maybe you can pick an approach that works for you and that you like and that minimizes your stress -- have that be what guides you, given that you know that she isn't happy even when you do exactly what she says she wants and would like.

"Mom, I'm going to be unreachable for a month [two months, six months, 20 days, whatever], so there will be automatic transfers from your savings to checking of $X every Friday."

That could protect the relationship between the two of you -- it protects you from hearing unkind things from her and prevents her from hearing you snap at her.

[LilacSunflower]

This happened to me a little over a year ago - I would get very angry at my mother and snap.   In the moment it felt right to call her out.

I, too, felt as though my growing anger was a sign I needed to take a step back.   Fast forward to now, I barely speak to my mother anymore aside from via post cards which - on my end - are purely polite and very distant.

I love my mother but I can‘t help her.

I hope one day she will trust me enough to be open and honest. As for right now, I simply can‘t stand the lying anymore.

We get angry when our boundaries are violated.   It seems you too have developed stronger boundaries.   I‘m happy for you!

Hang in there!

[CC43]

Hi there,

I suspect that your mom really likes the sense of control, and the attention she’s getting from you, even if she lies to get it.

Maybe what you could do is preface the phone calls with, « I only have ten minutes, and then I have to go. » Then you let her weave her stories for around 8 minutes, taking deep breaths, knowing she’s confabulating. Then remind her you have to go, and urge her to tell you everything she wants, because you’ve got to go in a minute. Then she’ll ask you for the money, and you tell her how much you’ll be transferring and when, then promptly hang up. If she doesn’t ask you, then great, and promptly hang up. Pretend you have a real emergency if you have to. You seem pretty levelheaded, and I bet you can take 8 minutes of the rambling without losing it. I’m just saying, it could be a quicker way for her to get to the point without trying your patience so much.

[Notwendy]

Thanks everyone for the posts and great suggestions. As you stated- drama and control are the elements of my mother's relationships. She doesn't socialize at the assisted living- as most adults won't tolerate a relationship where she has total control. She also has to be the superior- to be the "boss" in the relationship and the other person has to be submissive and not ask her questions.

How I got access to her bank account is a longer story but it happened when my father was ill and I asked to be added in case of emergencies for their own bills. They had enough money at the time to cover their bills- but if Dad was unable to manage them, I could do them for him. I didn't know about BPD at the time or the dynamics. Of course we know now who was in control. BPD mother didn't like that, began telling people I was "forcing her" to take me to the bank. I decided that if they didn't trust me, I'd stay away from their money and I did. Dad had put my name on one checking connected to savings account, but I never accessed it or activated online banking and didn't intend to. This was not their only asset or bank account. I had no idea what others there were.

Fast forward to now - BPD mother has spent all their assets and this is the only account she has left. She began writing crazy checks to people- some of her caretakers were exploiting her. Now here is a key change in her behavior. Prior to this, she kept her finances secret from us. This time, she wrote a check and told me about it and, knowing I could not reason with her, I told her family members.

Her family got concerned and asked me about the situation and asked if I could help her manage her money. I told them she wouldn't let me and she wouldn't let them either. Then, because I had remembered I had the name on her checking account, I could activate my online access and at least watch for crazy checks. This didn't stop her spending behavior- she has total control over her money- but the people exploiting her know I can see the checks so it has served as a deterrent of sorts. I put most of her money into her savings to avoid a large check being cashed.

Prior to this, I was very low contact but this has created a new relationship dynamic now. I have done some assisting with bill pay from her account for her during times she has been ill, but she remains in total control and she's determined to do what she wants with it. I don't get into a conversation with her over it as one can not reason with her. I have tried and see that it's not effective. I know it's not only with me because she won't cooperate with her family either.

So yes, I can see her bank balance. She now needs assistance with bill pay and can't manage online accounts and isn't mobile enough to get to the bank to do this on her own. But she can still write checks.

Kells- the automatic transfer is a great idea and I did try that but it's hard to predict her spending pattern. If a plan is set up- she will undo it. I think it's because it's the contact and attention she wants. A plan would allow people to step back. It's not just with finances but other things as well. As to preserving the relationship - I agree although it's hard to know what that actually is with her. I do want to preserve my own integrity- by not snapping at her.

CC43- I think the quick phone call idea is great and something I have not tried yet. I can say " I have 10 minutes- there's a work meeting" or something like that. I think you are correct that the lies also serve the purpose of attention and asking questions- to which she is in control over whether or not I get the answer. But if she really wants the money transfered- she would then have to get to it.

LilacSunflower- yes, I agree, it's the on going lies that make this difficult. We can forgive, not hold on to resentments for things that were done but when there is continued lying- how can there be a relationship? I don't know if what my mother tells me is true or not due to being lied to. Some of these are her disordered thinking but some is deliberate- to maintain control. I don't think she trusts anyone enough to be truthful with them- she does this with everyonne. Other people have gotten angry with her too but it only has the effect of her feeling like a victim if they do so it's not effective.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
It seems you are describing a stage of abusive relationships in which the person being abused can no longer tolerate the abuse. I am still amazed how low low contact I was with my mother at the end of her life, knowing she had not much time left to live. I did call and have one of the caretakers tell her I loved her in the last 24 hours of her life as I was too far away to come and say goodbye. I truly wanted to take care of my mother and show her I cared, I just could not.

Perhaps the snapping back at your mother is your inner self telling you to go lower contact with her. Whatever you choose to do with the phone calls, do give yourself a pat on the back for how decent and kind you have been to your mother for so many years without any reciprocal behaviors on her part.

[Tangled mangled]

NW,
I am going echo what zachira has said.

The snapping back is sign that you have reached a limit/hit a wall/ rock bottom in  the relationship with her.

You are allowed to feel emotionally exhausted and incapable of tolerating your mother’s behaviour.

Your mother is clearly abusing the POA you have.
In addition to what Kells has said is it possible to agree on a specific date with her every month to make a transfer or sort out a check or have a call for that purpose.

Perhaps treating the relationship like a business relationship would allow you maintain a distance. If your mother had a personal account, I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t call them as many times as she wished to request transfers.

[Tangled mangled]

* personal accountant

[Notwendy]

Thanks for the support and advice. Yes, she called me again to ask how much money she has in her account and I didn't say anything back to her and just told her. Somehow I had to keep repeating the number as she then said "she can't hear me" but she hears the rest of the conversation. Maybe it's also just an excuse to call me or whatever. Sometimes I block her but she can still leave messages. I think this is the better boundary- I can call her back at times. That, and having a time limit on the conversation might help.

I agree also, I feel I have tried all I can do. She's already spoken to her family after calling me and blamed me for something else and also telling them I won't tell her what is in her account ( I just told her!!). Fortunately, they didn't believe her.

[CC43]

Hi again Notwendy,

Oh boy I know the stonewalling/denial tactics in « conversations, » when they will lie outright. « I don’t hear you » is as typical as « I don’t know » or « You didn’t tell me » when the opposite is true. It’s when the toddler logic creeps in. That’s a clear sign they are mad, and they absolutely won’t budge. They would rather lie than admit they are wrong. They know that you know they’re lying, but they won’t admit it, and I suspect they even like the negative attention, or maybe it’s a power play, thinking they have to be right and you have to be wrong in their bizarro world. So I’d say, don’t give her your valuable attention when she’s like this. Don’t JADE. Hang up or leave the room. You’re too busy for this nonsense.

Maybe you could let all the calls from her go to voicemail. Only call her back when you’re mentally ready, and when you do, say you’re running to an appointment and have a couple minutes. If she rambles, cut her off and say your appointment is starting. Then hang up!  She’ll quickly learn that if she wants something, she’ll have to leave a voicemail or get to the point. And then go do something you enjoy!  Good luck.

I’m sorry she’s like this to you all the time. In my relationships this happens sporadically. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for you if she constantly acts like this. It seems to worsen with age I’m afraid.

[LilacSunflower]

NotWendy,
you are strong and courageous!

[Notwendy]

Thanks so much for the support. The situation has felt overwhelming. After my father passed away, I didn't have a lot of contact with BPD mother. That was fine with her- she didn't seem to want the contact either. However, as she got older and her health changed- all her family became more involved. Her phone calls range from several times a day to none for several days.

If I block her on my phone- the calls will go to voice message so she can leave a message if she wants to.  She's in assisted living and if there was an urgent situation- the staff would call me. I think it's best that I block her at times and let the calls go to voice message.

While it's difficult to predict her spending and do automatic transfers, I also can watch the account and if it gets low, expect a call from her about it.

[zachira]

It might help to have specific times when to listen to your mother's phone calls and block them the rest of the time. What would work for you?

[Notwendy]

Zachira- that is what I am planning to do. Block her for other times. She can still leave a message.

For a while, I would speak to her once a week. After she moved to assisted living it seemed there were several medical crisis situations so I felt I needed to be available for calls and for support. However, I can see now that all this contact isn't helpful to either of us and so know to dial it back.

[Notwendy]

CC43- I feel for you, as it must be very difficult to have a child with BPD. It's difficult having a BPD parent as well- I think all relationships have their challenges. In a way, our situations have similarities because, even though my mother is an adult, her level of functioning is as if she were a child- and also at a certain point, elderly parents need assistance.

Even in "non disordered" situations, having an elderly parent has some challenges and one is a role reversal with the adult child, and it's not easy for a parent to give up some autonomy and authority- but it's necessary. There needs to be some sort of agreement to cooperate.

I had an example of this with my MIL, who eventually handed over her checkbook and bank account to her children to help her manage her bills, had them sell her house when she moved to asissted living, and assist her in other tasks.  Of course this also requires reliable children who respect the parent's automomy and wishes but also have the freedom to make sound decisions. I wouldn't hand over this responsibility to a person with a disorder. Was MIL a challenge sometimes? Yes but the bond with her children was already secure- she was a caring mother- and so if she got irritable or said things without a filter- they still had this bond with her and knew this was her frustration at her being dependent, not reflective of her usual self.

With my parents- their insistence on being in complete control sabotages their kids' efforts to help them. BPD mother was in control of my father's decisions at the time and now insists on being in control of hers. Cooperation isn't there and it's chaos.

But does BPD get worse with age? I hope not for your sake and for your child's. I have read it both ways- that it gets better or worse. One issue with my mother is that BPD wasn't well known until recently and people mainly enabled her for lack of knowing anything else to do. So she had no incentive to change her behaviors. Knowing what you know now, I hope there's a better chance for better, since your child is young.

[Methuen]

Your mom is "getting something" from her current approach (increased contact, attention, power), which is driving you crazy.

What about a blending of some of these suggestions?  There are a lot of really good ideas here.

"Mom, I'm going to be unreachable for a month [two months, six months, 20 days, whatever], so there will be automatic transfers from your savings to checking of $X every Friday."

NW, you say this may not work because her spending pattern is irregular.  But isn't that actually the problem?  If the $ was auto transferred, she would actually have to learn to manage it.  Jiminy Crickets!   If she spent her $ from the autotransfer, and then wanted to buy something else before the next autotransfer, she wouldn't be able to!  Imagine! A Natural Consequence!  Halleljujah!  Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. Then block her on your phone.

How about consulting an accountant to get an objective $ sum for the auto transfers based on her existing finances?  I'm sure that would be pretty easy for an accountant. And that takes the target off your back. 

To take CC43's suggestion one step further, I don't know that I have it in me to listen to her confabulations for 8 minutes straight after you've been doing it this long. Holy.  But if I did, the next time I would make it 6, followed by 4, and then "get to the point!  I have to go in 2 minutes! and then "gotta go mom!" Click.  NW, they use and abuse our "niceness".  Consequences is the only thing that seems to work.

In addition to what Kells has said is it possible to agree on a specific date with her every month to make a transfer or sort out a check or have a call for that purpose.
Perhaps treating the relationship like a business relationship would allow you maintain a distance.

This!
I like the idea of a specific date every month (to talk about money or whatever for "x" minutes). That's a boundary.  She doesn't have to know about the "x" minutes - that's just for you.  You are busy and always have an appointment or meeting to get to...but for you, it might be an improvement. Would a phone talk once or twice a month be manageable?

When she pushes back against this change, too bad.  H and I took a month and went off grid.  The world didn't end, and Chicken Little is still here.  I returned to work out of retirement 2 years ago.  She freaked.  Now she takes what she gets of me which is a visit every week or two.  (To be fair I still get all her texts which drive me crazy but now I've learned to block them when I'm not in a place to deal with them).  And there is plenty of other  that comes up, but we have to be the ones to find a way to manage it or we get sucked into the black hole.  My point is, she will probably "react", but eventually they find a way to adjust.

I hope you can enact a solution that works better for you than the status quo which is giving her the attention she seeks and the power/control she wants, but is frustrating you deeply.

Lately, I have snapped back at her when she calls me. I don't like that I do it. It's that when she speaks to me, it's lying and manipulation. She knows she's lying and does it on purpose and finally I will say "and you expect me to believe this?".

A combination of all the suggestions could work.  But it's super scary for us to go down this road, because our inner child is scared about her response. I get this completely.  I'm terrified of my mom's unpredictability and the things she says to me.  However, we have to do it. We have to keep growing past this trauma and learn to look after ourselves too. Or they win, and we stay frustrated.  What I hear in your quote above, is you not happy with yourself because you are snapping at her.  Unless you are a "saint" or a "total doormat", anyone would struggle.  This isn't on you.  This is her personality disorder.  There has to be a way to find a better boundary that works for you. Not easy to set up a new boundary. Real scary.  But very necessary for your well-being.

Do what will work for you.  If it doesn't work for her it doesn't matter, since she isn't happy regardless of what you do.  She's disordered. What matters is that her $ needs are being met, and you're not being constantly provoked.

Cheering you on!

[Notwendy]

Thanks for the advice. There's no way to meet her emotional financial needs as they exceed her income and she's draining her savings. But there's also no way to reason with her about it- so the natural consequence is that, if she does that- she will have to budget. Fortunately her basic needs would still be met.

I think it helps to look at the pattern. Her main reason for calling me is to transfer from savings to checking for her. At the moment, her social security has come in and so far she doesn't call me. Later part of the month is when the funds get low.

What confuses me when she calls is the veiled intent of the call. She doesn't call and ask for the transfer- it's a circular discussion over something else, and maybe expressing (false) remorse about spending too much money- and followed by a "but just this once-  transfer some money until she can figure out her spending".

If I say to her "in just a couple of days your check will come in" that only leads to her getting agitated and insisting I do it now. Reasoning with her doesn't work- if she wants it- she wants it when she wants it.

I think I can expect that towards the end of the month, she will call for this and to just listen to the story - knowing what the agenda is. I like the idea of saying "I have only a few minutes" to talk and so she would then get to the point and then just do it. Automatic transfer is hard to predict as she asks for a different amount- and she would want it to be what she wants at the time. It's likely she will want to do this for as long as there's something in savings and it's her money- so no point in trying to reason with her about being more conservative with it. She knows what she's doing.