Do NONs create/enable BPs? [1950f3 replies to Jerryz]

[Mystified]

You know, I wonder sometimes about the turmoil.  I've read a lot here that talks about how a BP suffers and I did see this at times in my realtionship... .

But I also saw something else... .skimming the top of the pond.

Her x-mother in law, who adored her, died rather suddenly.  We were just starting to date at the time.  I offered to loet her have time, or bring dinner by her house, or just sit with her.

She came home from the viewing - without any perceivable grief or hurt.

I'm not sure how much she ever hurt, or if hurt was just so devastating that she learned to just fly over it.

Interesting. I have definitely seen my mom experience real grief after deaths in the family. I'm pretty sure that BPD Friend has experienced real & extended grief after deaths of family & close friends.

But run-of-the-mill hurt -- as in, "what you said hurt my feelings" [which, translated into Oz-speak, means, Non was trying to hold BP accountable for what BP said or did] -- I'm not sure about that. That might get flipped into the projection > blame > anger scenario pretty darn quick. (Or, with my mom, projection > blame > guilting & pouting).

Lets be sure to be beating up the subject and not each other.

Otherwise, I might start my sniffling again.  That would be ugly.  :'(

Well, we can't have that, can we? 

I appreciate your comments (always), Skip.

I bet I'd like your dog, too.    

~M.

[1950f3]

first I think I posted equal, both wrong, ... but yes my wife is 1/2 through med school dept free, car is paid and she has a new roomy who is picking up the tab.(she may have to pay in her own way who knows) so yes she is better off than I am I am still in undergrad at 25 (which may come in handy when I get to date again LOL/J/K   )

she is always right, but she is unhappy, and untill now that was my fault.

Joanna K,

LOL that is exactlyy what happened! did you read my intro? it was one of the this has to be a joke, wasn't it?  she got so crazy and outthere that I could not take it and I stood up, and she left and claimed that I was abusing her, moslty because I would not wear a orange tux and be a brides made in her bestfriend the 450 lb lesbian that was 20 years older then hers's wedding., she called her dad then came back with my dad said he would go, ... .you trust him right?

here is the thing guys, you all have my story, at least most of it, the book should be out soon,  that is how I am paying my legal fees but my point is had I met you all and you seem really cool.

she left 3 monthes ago,  and I am seriously great.  I have read post that are really old here and I wanted to share what happened in my life, but I didn;t exaclty know. I mean I was in a relatioship where I actually considered pulling on a orange tux and being paraded around a lesbian wedding as the the man that is not bad like other men, by my wife. point being I WAS IN DEEP.  and she left and I sniffeled and cried and tried to contact her. and she treated me like crap, as you all would expect.

and I went to counceling and was told dont contact her, and I thought But I love her sniff sniff aniff.

part of what I had going is the fact I was a non in training, I had never ever acted like that with ANYONE. I had great boundries, many friends ect. I took responcibility for me, it was my fault, that I was treated like that. we can say its this, its that, its a disease, I mean who can argue that? they are sick, I have no control. I could have and should have been the one to say, wow great ass, but you are nuts.

I made my wifes BPD worse  by allowing her crap to work, I said if you are threatining to leave, please don;t leave, I'll do XXX, you are mad at me please dont I'll agree with you I am wrong. its ok if you lie I wont call you on it, is this behavior unlike a child thowing a tempertantrum? give them what they want and they do it again and again worse and with more frequence.do not let their tools work.  if I had to leave to not allow it to work  do you think she would try that again?   example:I did X, my hubby threw me out, now I am with new guy maybe I'll do X again... .I think not.  and this applies to me., I did X it lead to (again read above), do you think I am going to do that again? um last time I had someone I loved and I was afraid they would leave I agreed and did everything they wanted, they turned into the hulk, and left. unless I think the hulk is sexy (and this is fun) I am not doing that again. I reconize and admit that I was pathetic, I turned what she was doing into strong tools for her. I allowed myself to be held randsome by her threats, it was me. she had been trying to blame me for her problems, and I was to blaim but not how she thought.  you may agree or disagree, but once I conceeded that I was a big part of the problem, I was over the hump. there is nothing wrong with being wrong, unless you cannot admit it. and I am going to take this a step further and give kudos to my BPD, who would never alow herself to be treated as poorly as I allowed myself to be treated. that is one thing I think we would all agree, they are pretty good at.

I would like to also say some of you are in too deep. I am thinking that this got bad gradually for you all too, is it possible that you gradually allowed their crap to work, and not that you are trying to stop it they have become the hulk and you are weak. I have not had the oprutunity to get back yet , but for me I see it as a canoe ride. you are in a stream, you can sit back relax and go with the flow like I did, and end up in the mississippi delta! then try to paddle home(hard and not likely). or you can paddle steadly and at the end of the day when get out you are at home. I admit there was a time in my relatioship where I had more influence, but I forfitted it for a small piece of peace, and no work. some light paddling over the course of 5 years may have kept me close to the dock.

[NewLifeforHGG]

I agree 1950. I was pathetic.

Mystified with all due respect you seem defensive. Of course posts or opinions seem generalized or else we would constantly be qualifying every statement.

I find it hard to believe that there are Nons that didn't have some low pathetic moments when looking back over their relationship with a BPD. Maybe it is different if it is a romantic relationship.

I too read some intros and am flabbergasted by what someone has tolerated. Not judging them but feeling compassion for them.

I too am an Unchosen and i sometimes think our skin can be bit thinner due to being invalidated so often as a child.

Mystified I want you to know I am not trying to bait you or anything just offering my 2 cents.

As for topic=H.lls no do I want to be Cap'n.

[meredith]

I find it hard to believe that there are Nons that didn't have some low pathetic moments when looking back over their relationship with a BPD.

sure.  but i just call that being a person, personally.  i don't think it's much of a basis for determining whether or not someone has 'issues' of their own.  you know - kind of like how the fact that someone bleeds if you cut them isn't all that useful for determining whether or not they have haemophilia.

[NewLifeforHGG]

meredith-I agree. When I first came here I was on this non as a rarified species kick but truthfully I think non only means that. I don't think there are any 'special' qualities we possess. I have a friend who is as compassionate as I am but she has a healthy relationship. As nons we are just people who met a person who showed us something we wanted and we fell for it. So I don't feel like non means anything more than nonBPD who had relationships with a BPD/BPDs. Unless your BPD is running amok with a tshirt advertising the fact it isn't always easy to recognize them. But those who say they flipped after years overnight I am a bit skeptical of this fact. Something had to seep through.

[bewildered2]

I'd like to make a coupla comments:

Re hurt; I'm surprised to hear that you guys haven't seen any evidence of this with your BPSOs. My ex-BPGF often told me how much and how deeply I had hurt her, and how she wished that one day I would suffer and "lose as much sleep". I never understood what on earth she was complaining about or what I had allegedly done. I do now. Every time it was fear of abandonment as I was either going out to play tennis with old friends and to have a beer or two afterwards (I would do this on the nights she was home with her young daughter but I would always return to her afterwards) or else I was doing something else with someone and she wasn't there. If she had been of healthy mind and disposition it would not have been a problem. Strangely (!), her mind didn't work the other way as easily, meaning if she went out to do something with someone without me she wasn't anxious about being abandoned at all. But nor was I.

Mystified-JoannaK is here for a reason, like we all are. I look forward to coming to bpdfamily every day and sharing my problems with you all as it has helped me enormously (I'm selfish see-my exBPGF was right!). A few months ago I was "bewildered2". I was in a terrible state, horribly confused and horribly hurt. JoannaK, and many other good people here, listened to my rambling diatribe and pathetic stories and stuck with me through it all and gave me good hard advice. It took me a while to get it, arrogant thicko that I am. I thought my case was different, my BPGF was different and better from some others I read about here. I thought my outcome would be different, that my exBPGF would see the light, get the therapy, and we would live happily ever after. I thought I could manage the whole process no problem. I'm a high achiever you see, Ha ha, what a joke. I did everything wrong that I could have done. And I nearly ended up in jail thanks to my little gem of a BPGF. So no, I don't think we can be hard enough on each other here. We are in this mess because we made mistakes. Sure I can sit here and make excuses but you know something? JoannaK is absolutely right, at least about me. The signs were there from minute Number 1. A beautiful chick walks up to you in a bar and says "wanna x-x-x-x?" and I change my like to be with her without asking or suspecting that she might have a problem or two? The truth hurts, but when I'm too mesmerized to see it then I want someone who cares to tell me the truth. And that is what we get here thanks to people like JoannaK (and others I could mention). Should we ask ourselves if we goofed up from the start or just let ourselves off for making an honest mistake? I don't want to go through this experience again, so yes, I'm gonna carefully examine where I was and how I got into this mess so I don't screw up again. And yes, I was vulnerable, I was stupid, gullible, too trusting, too enabling, and too easy to read. JoannaK is here and has earned her stripes the hard way. She has obviously been hurt, badly, maybe more than anyone else here, and she has done the hard thinking that we need to do. I feel like I am in third grade in Non school while JoannaK has just finished her second PhD. We can all learn from each other, but veterans like JoannaK have some great things to say and we should listen, and remember that she has been through the war we are still in. How great is it of her that she comes here each day and gives us the benefit of her experience and wisdom? And how generous? Advice like hers could cost a lot of money, if you could find it. And all you have to do is log on at your PC each day, fantastic!   

Skip-love ur remarks, as always. Hugely perceptive. 

1950, HGG, Meredith, JMR, I feel for you all.

One day I would like to be in a position where I can give back some of what I have gained here and help people who have been terribly wounded by their experience with their BPSO, as I have been. I'm in the angry phase now where I feel ripped off for being blamed for making my ex-BPGF unhappy when she has been unhappy forever, and because she never told me until the very end that she had been in therapy four times before she met me. Maybe I will get over it. But if my comments to others here sound angry and if I advise Nons to run as fast as they can from their BPSOs it is because I honestly think it is the best and only course of action unless you like abuse. It is as simple as that. Want pain? Stay with them. Want to ease your pain? Leave.

Just my 98 cents.

Thank you to all my cyberspace friends out there. You have no idea how much you have helped me.

B2       

[StressedinCleveland]

I think Joanna was just making a point made in hundreds of posts here in one form or another --there were signs that things weren't quite right but we ignored them because we were optimists, we had faith in the inherant goodness in all people, we were idiots.

In my case, the signs were very subtle and I don't think I was blind. A few weeks ago I called up a woman from our circle of friends before we got married. I told her a little about our troubles. She said that everyone thought we were a great match and that she was wonderful --she was very surprised to hear about troubles. This is coming from the woman I left for my future wife --she had thought my wife was a better match and had no regrets giving me up. The upshot of the conversation was that I feel less like a blind fool. The signs were not obvious to our close friends. Problems only really surfaced with post-partum depression when our son was born.

Did I enable her? Mainly in the sense that I shielded her from the consequences of her behavior. My son does not enable, but he "gives her supply" because he fights back emotionally attacks her. So the roles of enabler and trigger may be played by different or multiple people in the borderline person's life.

[Mystified]

Of course posts or opinions seem generalized or else we would constantly be qualifying every statement.

Okay. But I don't have to like it, do I?   

To be serious for a second:  I don't think that qualifying one's statements is, in general, too onerous a task. But that's just me.  My being particular about language use is an asset in my job, but is sometimes a liability elsewhere, I've found. (That's a statement about my close reading of text; not a comment on anyone else's language use.)

... .I think non only means that. I don't think there are any 'special' qualities we possess... .So I don't feel like non means anything more than nonBPD who had relationships with a BPD/BPDs. Unless your BPD is running amok with a tshirt advertising the fact it isn't always easy to recognize them.

That's what I was trying to get across.

One last comment: I think some of y'all are reading too much into my posts in this thread. I was making some observations, not attacking Jo (or anyone else).  But mebbe my exasperation showed too much, and/or mebbe Miss Precise Language had an off day and didn't express herself well. It's been known to happen. 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming: "a BPD is a BPD is a BPD."  Or, put another way: "If a BP falls in the forest, and a Non isn't around to hear it, does the BP still make a sound?"  I think the answer is Yes.

~M.

[1950f3]

you are right, but it is not running, it taking care of yourself, there is no shame in that. my wife may come back she may not, do I love her, um yea.

do I believe that she can be a wonderful person, if she humbles herself pulls her head out of her butt and re alligns herself with christ. and that is exactly what I had to do to get to the place where I could say yes I have love for her, no I will not enable her, and If I have to "loose" her so be it. I had thought that by not enabling I was killing the realtionship, and she actually told me that she said "why do you sabatage this relatioship" but what she really meant was "you know I will leave if you don't put on that F&*^in orange tux and be the best brides maid you can be, how could you live with that".  its funny now, I can even laugh, at least at me, her part still breaks my heart.

bewildered2 yes the hurt thing, she claimed I destroyed her, and I did I went out one time in the last year we were together(it was a birthday for a guy at work and she was invited but didn;t want to have  hang out with those people) I left my phone in the car by accident,  and when I left it was 30 min after the time I told her I would be home, 1030, I know big party animal.  I promptly called her, she was yelling and screaming/crying and apparently she had taken the dog and was driving all over the city looking for me., but I

was never completly sure where she was, but I figuered she was ok

the non thing: I think that there should be another term, like before you graduate to being nutral, when you are stilll a active counter part. maybe some of us are seing "non" as the inabling counterpart, myself included, and others are seeing it a aterm for people who have to deal with BPD and are doing so in a healthy way. even there though my healthy way was to get out, set up healthy boundries and move on. if she comes to me so be it. she still has a few days.

another thought though I have seen many times( in hine site)  where a woman totally acts BPD, to the T, gets sick of her pathetic non, leaves and ends up in a healthy relatioship, and even continues to see the non as pathetic. I think they learn too. they are not any happier then we were.

no woman wants to be with a woosy.

the pathetic inabler/BPD relatioship is not good for either party.

[bewildered2]

How about this as an idea?

Starting point: The BP is unhappy.

BP meets Non (who is also unhappy).

BP and Non hang out and are both happy while they each do their thing i.e. the BP does the idealization of the Non to win him/her and the Non is the answer to all the BP's prayers (e.g. sex, idealization, etc.) while he is in the process of being won over by the BP.

Non falls for the BP.

BP falls for the Non.

BP, sensing growing intimacy, fears abandonment, and starts acting out.

Non, sensing withdrawal of BP, fearing abandonment, aims to please.

BP tries to run, Non chases.

BP and Non become happy and unhappy.

BP leaves because is unhappy and blames Non for unhappiness.

Non is left in bewildered state, or stronger Non leaves first.     

Too simple?

B2

[JerryZ]

How about this as an idea?

Starting point: The BP is unhappy.

BP meets Non (who is also unhappy).

BP and Non hang out and are both happy while they each do their thing i.e. the BP does the idealization of the Non to win him/her and the Non is the answer to all the BP's prayers (e.g. sex, idealization, etc.) while he is in the process of being won over by the BP.

Non falls for the BP.

BP falls for the Non.

BP, sensing growing intimacy, fears abandonment, and starts acting out.

Non, sensing withdrawal of BP, fearing abandonment, aims to please.

BP tries to run, Non chases.

BP and Non become happy and unhappy.

BP leaves because is unhappy and blames Non for unhappiness.

Non is left in bewildered state, or stronger Non leaves first.     

Too simple?

B2

It may be simple but it pretty much boils it down for me. This is the reality of it.

Bless,

Jerry

[Skippy]

   

Too simple?

Wow.  That nails it at  35,000' level for sure.

Excellent perpective.

[StressedinCleveland]

Works for me right up to the "BP leaves". I am still waiting for that part.

I don't envy my wife's life. It seems very empty. No job, few interests other than TV, living through our son who's nearly grown up. She sits and stares at the wall or out the window for hours on end but doesn't seem sad. Just inert. Aggressively inert, if that makes any sense. Who knows what kind of chaos is swirling around in there?