The "friendship" question?

[artist27]

Hope is the mind killer.  I think someone somewhere said that.  When I put away my hope for a good relationship of the romantic sort my pain seemed to subside.  When I put away the hope that I had, for my ex who I suspect has a BP, to somehow behave normal, my pain again subsided.  When I lost my trust for her and could no longer see the beautiful person that I had once seen, my expectations dropped, I began to heal.  All the things that I loved about her fell away and what was a left was a person who had none of the attributes that most men would want in a woman.  Which has left one question for me, what about the friendship? 

Do I want to be friends with a woman that I can not trust, I can not confide in, I can not let my self truly grow close to as a friend or otherwise, and who I can not count on to be their for me, but who will always expect me to be their for her?  That is my question that I now have in my quasi-no contact state.  I still have to see her on a daily bases, at least for a little while.  It will be almost impossible to ignore her for more than a couple of weeks or so.  I don’t call her and I don’t text her anymore. 

Even though I feel that I love her, I have kept an emotional distance from her early on in the relationship, because I was aware of her disorder from almost the beginning.  I always wonder if that makes a difference.  I have pretty much lost my romantic feelings for her.  It does not hurt me when I see her talk to other men now.  It does not hurt me when she rages over something small and we stop talking, because now I just see it as part of who she is, part of her personality.

My concern, and what will dictate our friendship, is how bizarre her behavior will get.  In her current re-engagement state she is getting more aggressive.  I have made it clear that I no longer want a romantic relationship, and all that is left is possible friendship, but she continues to make it clear that she is unhappy, when I talk to certain co-workers that she does not approve of.  Her argument is that she is not jealous she is simply looking out for me as a friend.  She got to the point one day, where she was saying things about another female co-worker at work, loudly enough for the co-worker to hear and take offense.

The “control” situation is just as bad, when we discussed a recent conversation we had which had set her off, she out right said that I had to think about what I said because she may take it wrong and it was my responsibility to make sure I said it right, so that she did not take offense.  This ignores her part in communicating with me, which would be to clarify something that sounded wrong or was unclear.  I found that everything is seen as negative and I have not and will not be hyper-vigilant with how I speak around her.  I will give the same sensitivity to her that I give to others, and I will not take any verbal abuse from her, I never have.

My hope (there’s that word again) is that she will stabilize and we can have decent conversations every now and then.  I also hope that maybe she will find a new interest and move on.  But, somehow I think this is just another step I have to take to accept that I can not have this person in my life anymore.  I feel that she feels that I know her now, so she does not have to hide her behaviors anymore.  She does not have to hide her paranoia anymore.  So we will see…can she be a friend?

[indoubt]

I don't know how long you were together. How long you dated,how long you were married if you were. I saw the signs in my relationship and still got married.

Just be glad she is your 'x' and your not in a realationship with her now. Don't get sucked back in. I realize now that I was brainwashed in my weakness and married her when I should't have. Now I'm paying the price and have to get out!

[JerryKew]

It's hard to answer that question. I haven't really read any posts where people said they had managed to establish a friendship with their xBPDpartner.

I kind of have the fantasy that I might establish one with my own xBPD, but in fact I doubt it can even be possible. I left a little over 2 motnhs ago, haven't seen him or even talked to him since then, but we have corresponded fairly normally for the past 3 weeks or so. However, this is no indication that a friendship is at all possible.

I suppose friendship invoves a certain degree of closeness, and you know how hard it is for BPs to handle the closeness.  My BP has very few friends, in fact lost many over the years.

As for me, having been with him for 17 years, I know him very well and for too long was much too sympathetic and empathetic with him. And now I need to protect myself from him (and from my own demons as a Non). So I guess if we ever become friends it won't be any time soon. I suspect the process would take a long time. But ideally, yes, I would like that to happen in the future.

[ian]

I think it is REALLY hard to do. From most people's experiences she will probobly push your limits until you can't be freinds anymore, and if you can, what's the point? This sounds a little cold but you are probobly still attached to her in SOME way. I tried to be freinds with my BP for months before the NC which was worse than the actual break-up. I just wanted her as a person, and us to work out as freinds but even that was impossible.

The question is, what would you really get out of the freindship? I really doubt that she will change, so as things are you have to ask yourself if you are expending energy on something that is not going anywhere. I don't think they generally stabilize when you get to know them, they actually get crazier.

[FallingLeaf]

Ahh yes, the friendship question.

In a nutshell, here's how things went down for me.

She "abandoned" me at a time she felt I would abandon her. She had her backup guy all prepped up and I never saw what hit me. Then SHE asked for friendship ("friends with benefits" in her own words, to keep me "hooked" I suppose).

I was crushed, but I gave it a shot. That's when things got REALLY weird and I started hunting down the internet looking at personality disorders. The pieces all came together when I read about BPD and NPD. Friendship in "our" words is a foreign concept to them. It still is about filling their bottomless pit of need.

Good luck. I see my ex everyday at work. It can be difficult sometimes.

She will push you away if you are close to her, and beg you to stay if you leave. The only way to win, is not to play.

[eternaloptimist]

Hi Artist - I am intrigued by your post.  My mind has been going in exactly the same place recently, the place where “hope” becomes the big question in my relationship.  It was wonderful to hear what you had to say about it.  I find that when my H stops acting out and shows the side of him that I married, the hope quotient goes way up and I start believing that things will get better.  I am an optimist - I am a hopeful person.  Losing faith and giving up hope for me is almost as painful as giving up my marriage - that hope is what has kept me alive.  That hope is what makes me the person that I am.  It is so hard to give up the hope to gain back my life.

But Artist, just like you said, when I let go of the hope, things actually look better for me - it is ironic that the thing that has made my life bearable - the hope - is also what has kept me from moving on when things became intolerable.  It is also what is missing from H’s being - he can find no hope in the future, in himself or in the world.  I provided the hope for both of us. 

So how do you let go of that intrinsic part of your being - the hope that people are good and that things will get better - Dante - “Abandon hope all ye who enter here” -  written over the entrance to hell -

Thanks for the post - it made me think about why this is so difficult.  - EO

[elphaba]

Artist,

Ultimately it comes down to the fact that because of their black/white and twisted thinking - even friendship is impossible...

I tried, really honestly tried...we'd been friends long before we started a relationship and hoped that we could fall back on that, but, these people (without intensive therapy) are not able to carry on any kind of interpersonal relationship. 

Realistically, and you have said it yourself...why would you (or any of us) WANT to be friends with someone we cannot trust, someone who has shown that they will never be able to be counted on.  Spend your time and energy finding REAL mentally healthy friends!

[TonyC]

i think the question is can you be a friend,

you  have alot of do i's in you post...do you really need to be friends with some one you cant trust , or get empathy from?

or would she be the one to call if you had something heavy on your mind...cause there will be many situations... where you problem is in consequential  to her...because her problems are much more important than anything you have

also if BPD ...you can only be her friend none elses

tony

[snoqualmie]

Convenient and appropriate topic for me.  Got a letter from UDBPW that cheated on my while she was deployed with NG.  Went back with the 2nd of the 2 guys after I did not take her back immediately.  She is now training in Alabama.  I am sure that she knows something is up with her commanders.

Got a letter from her yesterday from her training base in Alabama.  She goes on how she says that she can't fix what she has done, I am a great man and father, how she is entitled to be around our daughter as much as me (although the wife has been in and out of our daughter's life for 3 years - some by her choice, some not).  She wrote how she is trying so hard in this school and I need to let her do that.  She signs it "Your Friend, UDBPstbx"

I almost laughed.  The fundamental basis for any relationship is trust and respect.  I have neither for her.  She has done very little to help me regain any respect for her.  I think these people equate friendship with your ability to help them.  In this case, she does not want me to let her commander know about her affairs.  Too late - her commanders already know.  Just waiting for the hammer to drop. 

I would be leery about having any semblance of a relationship more than you need to with these people.  I will unfortunately have to as she is the mother of my child.  They are probably using you for some reason or another.  After she does not have a use for me, I will probably be painted black once again.   

[turtle]

Do I want to be friends with a woman that I can not trust, I can not confide in, I can not let my self truly grow close to as a friend or otherwise, and who I can not count on to be their for me, but who will always expect me to be their for her? 

So we will see…can she be a friend?

Based on this paragraph, I say "no!"   Are you friends with anyone else that you can't trust, can't confide in, can't let yourself grow close to, can't coun't on to be ther for you, but always expects you to be there for them? 

This isn't friendship. And, like many others, my personal experience is that the bp is just not capable of friendship because they are not capable of any kind of close relationships -- period.  It's just too much work to be "friends" with a bp who was a former SO -- IMHO.  I would rather spend my energy cultivating healthy friendships.

Turtle

[Beachman325]

   This is a good question that I have poundered over a number of months.  When the relationship failed and I let her go, she left me a voice mail about how she wanted to be friends and that she would still get me things like dinner when I am working...I thought this is strange response as I did not at that point trust her anymore.  As I learned from more people who know her and her background and from mental health folks who know her enough that BPD was the first thing they told me, I backed away from ever contacting her again as I realized she is not normal.  We were friends for a number of years before the relationship and she used to listen to me at night when we would visit, but as I think about it, she never could give me much back.

   Snoqualmie you make a good point that really did hit home today.    You said: [The fundamental basis for any relationship is trust and respect.  I have neither for her.  She has done very little to help me regain any respect for her.  I think these people equate friendship with your ability to help them]  Your last sentence reminds me of codependency and my own need at times to help more which feeds the need to care, which I have equated with love and now know very sadly it is not.  If I think about it further, I am trying to feed a sick soul from someone who also has a sick soul.  My needs are not being met from her and her needs will never be filled up by me.  Two people could not be so different and so apart rather than the closeness I thought we had.  It just struck me that I can neither fill these or other codependent folk up, but instead need to back off more and do things for me.  I see the results in over 5 almost 6 months of working on silly stuff, like organizing my apartment better, taking a healthy look at my finances and working on improving them, actually planning my life with goals and direction, and being free to move about as I would like.  It just struck me that with a BPD, you are on a collison course from the get go as both of us take care of our needs in very unhealthy ways, the only outcome will be destruction and implosion from the get go.  Thanks for the insight!  I will learn how to be less intrusive, caring but not responsible and above all let relationships form and be on their own right and not something I would like them to be when the person is not what I hoped...amazing some times what I learn about myself here! 

[sillyputte]

I tried, but as many have said here, I did it for the wrong reasons.  I was still acting on my co-dependency issues in thinking she needed someone to stay by her.  It blew up just as the relationship did only worse, and in the end was probably a good thing because I was coming to realize just how dysfunctional any relationship with her was going to be.

Like you I questioned why I wanted to be involved with someone I didn't trust and didn't respect.  The reason became clear over time with counselling...I was still trying to fix her.

Once I realized I am not that powerful, and have no control over her, and she had the blow up of all blow ups saying she hated me and never wanted to see me again, I finally got it.  Her subsequent attempts to re-engagement have failed.

No one here can tell you what to do, we can only state what our experiences have been.  At some point the facts will lead your heart to the conclusion your head probably already knows.  It might take one more perverbial kick in the nuts, or it might not, that choice is yours.

I have not read of any successful friendships coming out of a relationship with a BPD however, and I suspect in all fairness you will be setting yourself up for failure.

[pizaluvr]

I believe that being friends after ending a relationship with someone you loved deeply is just another way to stay attached to them somehow.

I don't think it is healthy at all to try to remain "friends" after being lovers.

Borderlines IMO, aren't capable of being a true friend.

They seem to just exist and become chameleons when they are looking for prey for their next attack.

I am making them sound so mean, and they are.

pizaluvr

   

[garyw]

Hi artist

I didn't even finish your whole post or any of the responces but I know the answer.

No !

I tried it and it was almost a worst Hell than when we tried to be a couple.

You can not be (just friends) with someone you still have romantic love for.

It will tear your heart out.

It is nothing but a big lie to yourself.

Like I said...i did it. I at the time you are at now would settle for whatever crumb fell onto the floor just to be around her just in case.

I think it is a human impossibility as long as there is still love involved. You will little by little want just a little bit more and she will little by little start taking more away.

Of some of the things I feel strongly about...this is one of them at the top of my list.

[neko]

Artist27,

Well you hit it right at the start.  How can you be 'friends' with someone you simply cannot trust.  What kind of 'friendship' would it be?  Mine tried like crazy to keep me as a friend, with even creating issues at work that only I could fix.  I had to keep on telling her that I cannot be friends after everything.

It's hard but don't forget they cannot let go until they have gotten 100% bored of you.  At the same point I see in my life that I was so desperate for attention that even something highly defective I was willing to go above & beyond to try to maintain it.  You would be better focusing that energy on something productive, than an already dead end...

Best of luck!

[cali girl]

Hi Artist... I actually posted something similar recently and met with the same replies. 

My sitch is this - My exbf broke up with me recently.  We still live in the same house, sleeping in separate bedrooms for over a month now, me wanting to believe that we can be friends at this point.  In the three years we had been together our relationship had been deteriorating for the last two in my eyes.  Slowly but surely my love for him was dying -  a slow death, nonetheless dying. 

At this time, I feel completely out of love with him, to the point I feel ready to start dating others, haven't felt this mentally healthy in years. 

We have decided to be "friends" until he finds another place to live.  We still chat at home after work at night, keep it light for the most part (he knows he is incapable of a relationship, so he SAYS).  Right now he leaves every Friday morning to go visit his kids/ex-wife out of town and doesn't return home until Monday evening. I love this setup - I feel so clearheaded when he is gone.  So we have this understanding that we are now "friends".  I find that he is floundering though, he initiated s*x the other night and I told him I wasn't interested (1st time ever).  In my honest opinion, he wants to remain "friends" to remain close to me and as I look into my crystal ball, I can see this now as maybe a slow re-engagement, as he isn't aggressively looking for a place to live. 

In my heart I KNOW that when he moves out I will probably will not want to pursue our "friendship".  I despise him for not being the person I thought he was when we met, but have gotten past it. 

Is it safe to say that you feel sorry for her but yet have a certain amount of animosity, like I do, and we've ended up putting this in the "friendship category" due to lack of another term  ?  I think that BPD's want to lead you to believe they can be your friend - when really, alterior motives are attached.

~ Cali

[thomaso61]

Judging by your post, you work with her, right? Where would you be if you didn't even work with her? From my experience so far, once your outta sight your outta mind. You have to see her continually. Would it have been different if you didn't have to see or work with her? My guess is yes. You might not even be pondering the question about just being friends. Once your painted black, your done, over, finito. They move on to the next person who will fill their bottomless pit of need. Good for you for recognizing she had issues right from the get go. Unfortunately, I ignored them. It cost me immensely. Where was my BPDwife when I was down? As is for lots of other people on this board left pondering the same question. They move on like you didn't exist. You sure you want to maintain a friendship with someone like that? It's not worth it.

[NewLifeforHGG]

Being civil is one thing but a friendship is a recipe for disaster.

I don't think being friends with someone who abused your feelings is a good idea. Ultimately she will have ulterior motives. It will end in tears in my opinion.

[cali girl]

I must echo Thomas in that I still feel that slight "ping" when I see him - for me it's Tuesday thru Thursday.  BUT, when he leaves for on Friday for four days, I don't think about him at all - zero, zilch, zippo.

There will always be that little thread of a connection when you are around her, I am finding that to be true in my circumstance.  How do you feel when you go home at night, is she "out of sight, out of mind"?  

~ Cali

[artist27]

Thanks for the posts and support.  We were together for about a year and I have no children with her.  I have heard it mentioned several times that BPD’s make poor parents.  Is that something that is always true? 

To answer Eternaloptimists question, I don’t know exactly how I let go of my hope.  I think that I did it over time.  I think I started to let go after I saw the first real rage and she tried to act like nothing had happened.  That is when I really started to believe that she had BPD.  Until then I had pushed the thought away and thought “I’ve just been reading too much at school and I’m seeing disorders everywhere.”  But, I saw the gradual transformation from a gentle and supportive woman to a verbally abusive and vulgar woman. 

When she begins to get angry she becomes very vulgar and brings up things about other people that make no logical sense to bring up.  I wish I could go into more detail, but she still has me so paranoid that I am still scared she could find this site and realize that it is me.  She learned everything about me that she could in such a short period of time.  She knows things about me that long time friends don’t even know.

I think that is one of the keys in leaving.  I had to believe that she had BPD, even though she has not been diagnosed to my knowledge.  She meets all the dsm criteria.   After a few more rages and re-engages I really began to believe, and the hope and trust melted away after each episode.  The latest one just drove the point home.  I have become numb to her advances.  I am the Zen master .  It’s like being in the middle of a storm and being at peace. 

Watching her behaviors is sad.  Every time she does something that screams BPD I feel more confident with my decision to end it.  I just keep thinking and the posts that I have read have urged me to think this, “I can’t put up with this for the rest of my life.”  And if I can’t deal with this behavior on a long term basis than what is the point of going forward in my relationship?  The woman that I thought existed never did exist, and when I really look at her, I see a person that I probably would have never started talking to.  I was blinded by all the attention. At the beginning she learned everything about me and became what I wanted, and once she felt she had me, she changed. 

I do have to work with her and I feel that once I move to a new job she will melt away.  But that scares me as well.  Right now I don’t think that she would pursue me, but I don’t really know.  She surprises me more and more as her behavior gets more and more desperate.  She does and says things that are so childish, like pointing out little things about other woman in what seems to be an attempt to keep me away from them. She does this in an inappropriate way and in a way that is obvious to other people; I really think that she is trying to push them into a confrontation with her.  She makes it well known that she does not care if no one likes her.

I know an attempt at friendship is most likely to fail, but I’m going to play it by ear and see what happens.  I know that on some level it’s just that last little bit of hope that I have to let go of.  I hope the predictive nature of the BPD is correct and her deep need for attention will move her on to someone else who will give it to her.  Because the “attention source” from me is drying up and at some point will be shut off all together.  It just takes time, and in this case the saying is reversed “don’t keep hope alive!”

[cali girl]

  I have heard it mentioned several times that BPD’s make poor parents.  Is that something that is always true?

I'm gonna say no.  Some BPD's will make great parents and over-compensate because they crave that unconditional love from their kids - it makes them feel normal.  My exbf's thinking is that when we have an argument he can run to his kids and ex-wife, can bury his head in the sand and wala, he feels normal again. 

He told me that he could no longer "juggle" our relationship and be a dad at the same time  ?  I was basically banned from the kids after being in their lives for 3 years.  All I could say was "why would anyone want to lead two seperate lives"? 

My conclusion is that his ex-wife hated me being around the kids, the kids would tell me "my mommy doesn't like you", wanted him back, him liking all the attention (ace in the hole) etc...

I cannot believe this was my life   

~ Cali

[NewLifeforHGG]

Be careful artist. Some BPDs lure their exes back just so they can dump them and have the final say.

cali-glad you are fee of the toxic situation.

[artist27]

So, this friendship thing is hard.  Every day that I have to spend with my ex makes me wonder if I am falling back into a relationship with her.  I still don’t text her or call her but she is following the same pattern that she has followed before to bring me back.  She is being pretty nice right now and the bizarre behavior has subsided a bit.  But, I wonder if that is because I have not been around anyone she disapproves of. 

It is so hard to maintain a sane perspective when you are in the BP world, because you want to think that the BP would not do some of the things you suspect them of doing, because “normal” people don’t act that way, or if they do, they don’t take it to such an extent.   I really don’t want to maintain contact, but I have to maintain a certain amount of civility at work, and being the friendly person that I am (I really am ) it is hard for me to outright ignore anyone if they are friendly to me.  She knows this and I think that she takes advantage of it.

I guess the key to not getting hurt is to remind myself that she is still the same person and she will not change.  I have to accept her disorder and deal with her on that basis.  Because, it is when I start to believe that she is “ok” I begin to waiver and I get sucked back in.  Not this time.  I have to remember the goal: don’t get back into the relationship and limit the friendship to minimal contact.  Hopefully she will fade away.

[Bailey]

Artist27,

I keep trying to be friends with my ex boyfriend (bp) but he manages to lure me back into some kind of "dance" where I can't win.  And he keeps saying how much he loves me and sends me the most heartfelt apologies I've ever read in my entire life. 

It feels overwhelming to try to explain it all, doesn't it?

Anyway, the mature thing is for two ex-lovers to try being friends, but I just don't think it's possible.

[artist27]

Wow!  I found out my ex is going on a leave for at least a month.  It was so nice not to work with her.  I felt a peace that I have not felt for a while.  I have not been calling or texting her and she has not been calling me, but I don’t know how she will react now that she will not see me for a while.  This kind of worries me.  She has always had some sort of access to me at work and I have heard the stories that you all tell about how your bpex’s stalk you and start calling over and over.  Maybe I’ll be lucky and she will leave me alone.

I’ve been trying to have a limited friendship, but even though we are not “together” we have been talking more and she was starting to fall back into her patterns: verbal abuse, (which I promptly address), anger and rage over small things (like not saying the right thing because I should know better), and she is still trying to control who I talk to, usually through subtle and sometimes not so subtle intimidation of co-workers.  I guess she does not need me to be “with” her, she just needs me to communicate with her.  I guess this is one of those “stealth” re-engages.  Never saw it coming!  Am I back in the relationship and don’t know it?

Marymac I know that “dance” I think I have been doing it since my last break up.

[Bailey]

artist,

You wrote: Am I back in the relationship and don’t know it?

Wow, do I know that feeling!  I'm there with ya.  Agreed to reopen correspondence and communication, and within about two days I felt like I had never left, and yet I didnt even realize it until I got back on this site and searching around for answers!  And we haven't even seen each other in person since our b reak up two weeks ago!

[JerryKew]

artist,

You wrote: Am I back in the relationship and don’t know it?

Wow, do I know that feeling!  I'm there with ya.  Agreed to reopen correspondence and communication, and within about two days I felt like I had never left, and yet I didnt even realize it until I got back on this site and searching around for answers!  And we haven't even seen each other in person since our b reak up two weeks ago!

It's funny you should write this, marymac. The same thing kind of happened to me when I allowed xBPDpartner to write me after about a month or so going absolutely NC.

We only exchanged a couple of letters, but what little we exchanged was ENOUGH to instill in me a sense of STILL BEING IN THE RELATIONSHIP. I need to be very careful about this, otherwise, next thing you know, we'll be back together and I won't even know when  or how it happened! Without even going so far, I risk losing control of the situation. I have to admit the only way to keep control of the situation is to go absolutely NC. I allowed LC because I thought it would speed up the process of selling the apartment and taking care of practical details, but I do now realize I run a higher risk of inducing a massive re-engagement attempt from him. When that hapens, boy - I'd better be prepared! In other words, I need to be CONSTANTLY on guard. It's tiring. What might happent he day I'm too tired to be on guard? I dread to think of that.

I keep thinking of what to say or respond if I ever get caught in a re-engagement attack. I still feel quite unsure how to respond. So I guess the "friendship" question is out of the... question for now.

[NewLifeforHGG]

I think NC is best. The re-engagement can sneak up on you and then you turn around and you a right back at square one.

These people know our weak spots and aren't afraid to use them.

Thank heavens for peace and quiet.

[Bailey]

Jerrykew

Their desire to keep us in the loop is very, very strong, because, I think, their sense of self is so fragile - they can't stand to feel abandoned or alone.  My very smart and clever ex knows this and reads about this, but then just can't change or be more consistently nice -- just plain nice, I would accept nice. But what I get is whirlwinds and craziness and confusion and challenges.  Nice would be nice, wouldn't it?

[Bailey]

He'sgottago,

Yeah, peace and quiet.  I recently stayed at my sister's cabin in the north woods, and I loved the silence.  I even disconnected their ticking clock so I could enjoy the total quiet.  I slept for the first time in ages without using any meds to help me sleep.  It was so relaxing I almost felt drugged!

My ex did continue to send me text messages though, often in the middle of the night.  So the only artificial sound would be the occasional beep of a tm coming in.