Is the capacity to love and capacity to hate in direct proportion?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Just sitting back and watching society, friends, and examining past relationship experiences, I have come up with one question that is bugging me. If I find a woman that shows alot of love, and is free with her emotions this way, will she be as equally free with the hatred she has? Is it possible to have a loving, caring woman, that can control her fear and hatred? It seems like people in general are either all over the scale or flatlined. Just my observations.

Even I am on one side or the other, but I am working on that. I am normally a genuinly loving person, but in my last relationship, I saw the devil come out of me on several occasions. I know that if I get mad, I am mad as fire, but it takes me a long time to get that way. If I love, I do so passionately. Is it part of an internal rollercoaster that we all have? Or just dilusional thoughts?

[PDQuick]

Just sitting back and watching society, friends, and examining past relationship experiences, I have come up with one question that is bugging me. If I find a woman that shows alot of love, and is free with her emotions this way, will she be as equally free with the hatred she has? Is it possible to have a loving, caring woman, that can control her fear and hatred? It seems like people in general are either all over the scale or flatlined. Just my observations.

Even I am on one side or the other, but I am working on that. I am normally a genuinly loving person, but in my last relationship, I saw the devil come out of me on several occasions. I know that if I get mad, I am mad as fire, but it takes me a long time to get that way. If I love, I do so passionately. Is it part of an internal rollercoaster that we all have? Or just dilusional thoughts?

[eastmeetswest]

Nope.  True love, real love, is pure.  A person with the capacity for pure love has everdecreasing capacity for hate.  IMHO.

[Cyndi]

don't think so PD,

I amaze myself sometimes how much I can love someone, usually freely and without conditions.

But as far as hatred goes, no matter how tough I pretend to be..

I just don't have it in me.

and believe me, I have TRIED!

[csandra]

Yeah, these feelings are pretty messy.  I suspect that it doesn't take a long time to "get" really angry but rather it takes a really long time for you to "notice" that you are angry or upset. 

I hate conflict and some of it can be headed off before it becomes a major hurricane.  I am getting better since getting away from the whole "walking on eggshells" scenario.  Face it, when we were dancing the dance, the anger never went away ...we just buried it for later or turned it inwards.  I found that I was carrying the WOE into other areas of my life: work, friendships, children.  I found that I avoided making friends with people who would not cater to stbx (or at least appear to do so).

I grew up in home with WOE and never dreamed that I would have ended up doing the same in my own home.  You certainly would have never predicted that if you saw who I was when I met stbx.  I DO remember the comment of one of my friends re: stbx..."NO ONE IS THAT NICE".  Of course he got her out of the way within months of marriage.  I acted like I didn't notice, blamed it on her, but he had been a real jerk.  Same with some of my former classmates.

Our red flags have to be the people who exhibit feelings to the extreme...good or bad.  No one is that nice.  I guess one of the best way to judge character is by seeing how they treat others who wouldn't otherwise matter(store clerks, waiters, disadvantaged persons).

Do they gossip A LOT about other people ?  Do they have strong racial predjudices ?  The capacity for hate gets tied up into a lot of these things and I think would predict hatred toward you if you don't tow the line as far as expectations.  How do they relate to those who are "different" not wrong, but just "different". 

And a final note...Do they need you to tell them that they are OK or lovable ?  If so, can cause a whole heep of trouble, imho.  I seek someone who is "internally motivated" as opposed to "externally motivated".  They will appreciate who I am (because I will be a LOT better than I am now !).  The only  person I want to take care of is myself...after finally launching these kids...

[Susan Peabody]

The capacity to hate can be as strong as the capacity to love but not in the same person. The capacity to love turns to hate in a certain proportion of people when they are rejected by their primary caretaker. If this is not fixed in therapy the capacity to hate, which now replaces the capacity to love, can be as strong as the capacity to love in a person who was not rejected. But the roll of the dice occurs in infancy and early childhood. One a child moves toward love, because he or she was loved, they will never have the capacity to hate as much. This may sound confusing, but I am trying to say that if a person has the capacity to love at all that will always trump their capcity to hate. But without the capacity to love hate can go as far off the scale as love does for others.

[NewLifeforHGG]

I don't hate easily. I can't sustain it. But I can lovely very deeply and completely.

Cap'n is generally nice as a front of being the 'good' guy but he can hate much more than he can love. He can access negative feelings very easily. He can't empathize with others so how can he love anyone? He hates himself.

He has pushed me to some very dark places and some very dark feelings but not nearly as intense as my love can be because my love can last but my hate is fleeting.

[PDQuick]

It seems that my observations were wrong. I thank all of you for setting me straight. I guess if you look for something hard enough, you can find it. I am a loving person, and other than the relationship with my ex, I have never fought with a girlfriend, actually, I am friends still, with most of them. All of us have our limits, and unfortunately, our N/BPD's danced all over those limits. They pushed and pushed, and we gave and gave until us losing our tempers resulted. 13 years is a long time to be in this kind of relationship, and it is hard to remember what life was like before her. It is so strange trying to remember, or rediscover who we really are after morphing into what we are now because of this dysfunction. It all happens so gradually for us, that the change doesnt seem to be a change, rather than us being who we are. If you push a tree long enough, it will bend in the pushed direction.

[Vincent]

I guess the capacity to give so much "love" and so much "hate", the capacity to give you the best and the worst is typical BPD.

"Normal" people are far more stable.

I think I'm a loving person. The typical "rescuer" type. With a little lack of self esteem deep down

Take care

Vincent

[crystal]

PD-- When you say "love" what kind of love are you talking about? The passsionate, falling-in-love love may be one the same emotional spectrum as hate.  Its about self. And self-fulfillment.  Some say falling in love is an emotionally deranged state--goes against all logic.  I think hate falls in that same category. Both are raging fires and I bet for this version of love, your idea has merit.

But "true" love is different- it is accepting and generous. It is about a commitment to the growth of the other person.  Less a raging fire, than a deep well.  Takes longer to plumb the depths of true love than it does to feel the fire of "falling-in-love" love.

CRystal

[jdtm]

As CRystal said true love - "is accepting and generous" (which I agree); then is true hate the opposite - "rejecting and selfish"?  I don't think so - I think hate is "rejecting and selfish" but I think "true hate" is indifference.  I know that the days that I feel "total indifference" to our uBPD is the day that I feel whole and in control.  It is also the days that I feel at peace with the world.  Anyway - just a thought ...

[Cyndi]

Love is a feeling of intense emotion.

hate is also a feeling of intense emotion.

Indifference is a state of no emotion, or lack of intense emotion, at all.

I think it is possible for some people to love and hate at the same time.  It is the INTESITY of emotion felt.  BP's feel emotions intensly, one way or the other, or maybe even at the same time.

I don't think they ever feel indifferent, that's too "grey" of an emotion for them to relate to

jmo

[elphaba]

For me...I think I am in line with Cyndi...

I love with all of my heart and soul...I love with passion and generosity...the few people that I have truly loved, I have loved fully and completely.   I love my children more than anything on this earth...

But, I have a very hard time hating anyone...even DB...I hate what he has done, I hate the illness, I hate the impact his behavior had on my family...but, I don't know that I really could hate him the person...although I wish I could.  I really really wish I could.

I think it is correct the thought here that it is much easier for the BPD to love and hate with the same intensity, it is the nature of the disorder...the inability to regulate those emotions makes the intensity of both emotions the same. 

The "normal" person is able to regulate those emotions and a person who is genuinely loving probably has little capacity at all to truly hate.

[PDQuick]

But, I have a very hard time hating anyone...even DB...I hate what he has done, I hate the illness, I hate the impact his behavior had on my family...but, I don't know that I really could hate him the person...although I wish I could.  I really really wish I could.

I couldnt have summed it up any better if I tried. Thank you Elphie, I have tried to say these things, but just couldnt find the words.

[bewildered2]

Paraphrasing something from one of the books about BPD, in describing how "hysterics" (17th century term for a Borderline) have relationships, it said, "they love without restraint the same person they will soon hate without reason".

PDQuick, don't fear, you are not like her.

You have the capacity for forgiveness. Borderlines don't.

You like your ex girlfriends. Borderlines hate theirs. Until they need them again. Just ask tonyc...

B2







   

[MGMom]

PDQ, I think some of us are naturally more emotional than others.  My students at school laugh at me because I always cry when Gatsby dies in The Great Gatsby although I have been teaching it for years.  At church, they often have me be the narrator for church musicals or dramas because they say I am "naturally more dramatic."  I guess I am a drama queen.  Just not in the sick BPD way!   The thing is that I think I am just sensitive to others' feelings and am able to express my feelings more readily.  I think that I do have a bit of a temper to go with it, but I don't think that is the same thing as hate.  Marching into the police station and  chewing out some deputies for telling my aging father he could shoot at deer ( in the city limits) is anger--not hate.  LOL  (Yes, I did that.)  and I left them much meeker than I found them, too.   

So, maybe those of us who can easily express our pleasure can also easily express our displeasure, but that isn't hate.  I don't think, anyway.

[Bailey]

pdq, I can see what you're getting at...borderlines are so so intense and full of high and low emotions, they bring us up and down and it seems like that kind of intensity is true love, so we are trained by borderlines to think that true hate goes along with true love.

I don't know, to tell you the truth.

I am looking for a man with moderation, and even if he's a little "boring" maybe he is exactly right for me, I mean, I have had enough of excitement, I want commitment, calm, loving gestures, good conversation, a life partner in a real way.

...I used to feel like my love with dannyboy burned way too hot, like a burning waterfall -- have you ever noticed that waterfalls only have a name while they fall?  That kind of hot intensity, love and hate, just can't last.  So, for me, if a man shows too much love and magical thinking and high emotions too early (or any time) in the relationship, it scares the heck out of me!

And yet...not sure how to love without that intensity.

Basically I am one semi-screwed up girl.

marymac

[PDQuick]

Basically I am one semi-screwed up girl

Basically, I am one semi screwed up boy. I dont think I know how to love without that intensity either. I see the difference now in hating and being upset. I dont hate anyone. I guess I answered my own question here.

[criticalmass06]

Fine line inbetween love and hate when your heart hurts so much

Time, its just take time for yourself to heal and let go.

In my opinion to answer your question, " is the capacity to love and the capacity to hate in direct proportion" ?

I dont know, in a realtionship with someone that has BPD and you/us being the non I think it capacity is pushed to the max and we are truly tested on love and hate and wanting a healthy realtionship- which screws up our thinking and behaviors to cope with what we had.

and its more important to get healthy and move on and let go.

CM

[TonyC]

our relationships with a borderline have , retrained our thought process...we dont have fun the same , our feelings change, our whole lives have changed...we love someone we dont want to go home to... , we love someone who cheated on us, we love someone who completely destroyed our character...

after its over we have to rebuild , reappreciate things, understandf things, look foward to holidays, anf family getogethers...

its a rebuilding process... we tolerated stuff for so long we forgot how to hate... maybe even how to love... and how to trust...

how to feel...

time will tell

tony

[Bailey]

Holy moley, we are one screwed up mess of a crowd!

I've been seeing this guy, a banker, and he seems so wonderfully normal...I feel like I'm walking down a curving path at midnight with no light...I don't know how to do it!

I had a dreamed that my banker had one eye socket that was empty...anyone want to analyze that for me? That's all the dream was, I saw his empty eye and then it was over.

marymac

p.s. Look at what I wrote:  This empty "I" and it was over...who's empty, him or me?

[gambaru]

My 2 bits:  the capacity to hate is directly proportional to the capacity to fear.  I do believe that intensity level of emotion is fairly equivalent in the same person, no matter the emotion.  It's just that fear and love cannot live in the same house.

[Bailey]

gamburu, I think you've hit a bull's eye, fear and hate, yeah.  Fear feeds hate, hate feeds fear.

marymac

[lasagna]

Marymac; I am no formal training whatsoever in dream analysis. But if you want my nickel advice (from peanuts cartoon) here goes:

You fear that your banker doesn't really see you for who you are. If he saw you as "screwed up" (your assessment of yourself, right?) then you fear he would run in the opposite direction.

Your banker may very well have his eyes wide open and like you for who you are. We old have old baggage that should not interfere with current relationships. We are constantly evolving but should be on the look-out for red flags. Everyone should look for red flags, but esp if you've been led down the "primrose" path before.

Perhaps you view yourself as "damaged goods".  I hope not.

As for my personal journey, I am getting insight from this thread. I have felt indifference toward my BPDd all week. I feel empowered. I love her in the sense that I wish her the best and would geve her a kidney. But I finally let go of the hatred.  It takes its toll on my physical health. And hate consumes me.  More and more my BPDd is becoming incidental to my day-to-day live. She can support herself and lives in a different state. 

[Bailey]

No bad, lasagna! 

I do see myself as damaged goods, but I am working on that, accepting me as me.  I think my banker observes me closely and in a very kind and generous way, but I still get defensive inside of myself, like, I don't want him to see everything...with dannyboy we shared every little feeling and thought, and no relationship can survive like that -- at least that's my new way of thinking.

thx

marymac

[lasagna]

Marymac: I cannot relate to a romance with a BPD, but I definitely relate as the mother of a BPDd as well as the mother of a daughter with no signs of BPD whatsoever.

I believed I was "damaged goods" after my experience with the first one. I felt like a total "scre up" as a mom. Kept wondering when daughter #2 was going to revolt. Was she maturing too slowly? Why did she think it was fine when I left a note that said "Fold clothes when dryer buzzes."    Took me quite a while to realize that what I have now is normal parenting. Sure, she gets upset with me sometimes. But she comes around quickly.

And she always knocks on my door before she enters my bedroom. Even though I am fully clothed with the door open. That was such an issue with BPD daughter. The entitlement and my "lack" of willingness to adhere to it.

Your dream made me think of that. 

[Bailey]

lasagna, I am so glad you have had a chance to parent a child who allows you some satisfaction, to not feel crazy-made all of the time.  So far I'm adjusting to this "normal" guy pretty quickly!  Still watching closely for fatal flaws to show themselves, of course, but so far so good.

marymac