Make the conscience decision -- happy or angry.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hmm, so it sounds like we have different interpretations of the same phenomena.  I don't think I agree that denial and control are the only two alternatives.  Though, as in the other thread, defining control can be a challenge.  You could almost interpret this in a phylogenetic manner.  We evolve to process social relationships in a certain way, e.g., bonding in a romantic relationship.  Our view of a persona, what we believe is the core of a person, is formed rather early in a relationship.  It takes a lot to change that.  Rather than denial or control, we might have thoughts of, "What am I doing wrong?" or we might blame things external to the person (e.g., stress, life circumstances, etc. . .).  This is more a symptom of lack of comprehension than denial or control.  Our inability to shift our view of that core person is met with accumulating data to the contrary that we must reconcile.   Eventually, the disparate behaviors become so pronounced that we can no longer maintain a coherent view of our raging spouse.  This is the genesis of the split you and I both talked about.  Even then, we still see the original concept formation of that person as more "real."  I see it on the boards frequently.  The negative manifestations of the disorder are seen as other, not the real person.  I think the haywire nature of the emotional volatility and irrationality of the personality disordered individual screws with our relationship compass and we don't know which way is up.  The journey is one of understanding.     

[Unreal]

Hmm, so it sounds like we have different interpretations of the same phenomena.  I don't think I agree that denial and control are the only two alternatives.  Though, as in the other thread, defining control can be a challenge.  You could almost interpret this in a phylogenetic manner.  We evolve to process social relationships in a certain way, e.g., bonding in a romantic relationship.  Our view of a persona, what we believe is the core of a person, is formed rather early in a relationship.  It takes a lot to change that.  Rather than denial or control, we might have thoughts of, "What am I doing wrong?" or we might blame things external to the person (e.g., stress, life circumstances, etc. . .).  This is more a symptom of lack of comprehension than denial or control.  Our inability to shift our view of that core person is met with accumulating data to the contrary that we must reconcile.   Eventually, the disparate behaviors become so pronounced that we can no longer maintain a coherent view of our raging spouse.  This is the genesis of the split you and I both talked about.  Even then, we still see the original concept formation of that person as more "real."  I see it on the boards frequently.  The negative manifestations of the disorder are seen as other, not the real person.  I think the haywire nature of the emotional volatility and irrationality of the personality disordered individual screws with our relationship compass and we don't know which way is up.  The journey is one of understanding.     

[carolt0604]

PD YES!

[Unreal]

It is us who are to blame for our own tethering, because we cant either see, nor accept the dynamics of the person we bond with. In our own fear of losing the person, and the relationship, we try to hang onto them, and we HAVE to control them to be the person WE WANT them to be. That is where I said that I was trying desperately to get HER to meet my needs, rather than trying to have my needs met. There is a huge difference in the two. I cant make anyone in the world meet my needs, but what I can do is embrace those that do, and discharge those that dont. In my past relationship, I now know that I did neither of the two. I tried in vain to get control a person to meet my needs rather than accept that she once did, and now has chosen not to.

I agree that we are to blame for our own tethering and that is is generally because we cannot see the dynamics of person we bonded with.  However, our understanding of that dynamic greatly effects just what it is we are trying to control.  If you believe, for example, you are at fault for various problems, what are you trying to fix?  If you believe external stressors are to blame, what are you trying to fix?  Sure, the goal may be to please your spouse, make her stop raging, be happy (like before), be like the person that you know she is, but I don't see this as a control dynamic, at least not in the way that is normally intended by the use of that term.  

I can recall this mindset quite well.  I might say something to her, say after a rage, like (this is a real example):

"Now, on a separate issue, your response to this kind of stress if often to lash out at me.  You dismiss my expressions of sympathy as trite and unoriginal and pressure me to "perform" appropriately under threats of divorce and property destruction.  I don't like the "you're not consoling me well enough, you're not empathetic, I'm gonna break your stuff and leave you routine."  Please be a little more aware when you get emotionally distraught about how you take it out on me.  I love you.  I don't want you to hurt.  Remember that."  

or

"I don't know how these things developed.  I know you want to be and are a loving person deep down.  I know you know those things are wrong and you don't like to do them, that they make you

feel bad about yourself.  You have a conscience, but those things tear me down."

In this one, I was so convinced of that original persona that I still didn't see it, and I wrote this after we had separated for the final time when I was coming out of the fog, when I realized how futile the situation was, and when I understood it was unhealthy. . . I still saw the negative as "other."  I don't think this is uncommon.  I think without awareness, any control, as you describe it, is difficult to assess with respect to motivations.

Btw, up from here,  congratulations on starting to move forward from this. . .

[rcoaster]

I can recall this mindset quite well.  I might say something to her, say after a rage, like (this is a real example):

"Now, on a separate issue, your response to this kind of stress if often to lash out at me.  You dismiss my expressions of sympathy as trite and unoriginal and pressure me to "perform" appropriately under threats of divorce and property destruction.  I don't like the "you're not consoling me well enough, you're not empathetic, I'm gonna break your stuff and leave you routine."  Please be a little more aware when you get emotionally distraught about how you take it out on me.  I love you.  I don't want you to hurt.  Remember that." 

Wow. This is so insightful, and exactly the kind of thing I wrestled with for the duration of my own relationship with BPDxw. When you read it from another person's point of view, it is so obvious that it is very much a parent/child type of thing. It's amazing how when we are in it, we don't fully see that-just hanging onto that hope that  they will change for us, and relieve us of our "parental duty" to teach them the ways of a healthy relationship-as if we can actually do that. Yet, they are (biologically anyway) adults, and what we fail to see is that most often they already know what is right/wrong, but they just can't help their selves to lash out in destructive ways. I put the burden on myself to "teach her" how to be "nice, compassionate, patient, a good communicator, respectful of my feelings, etc.". How many of us all did the same thing? One of my best friends is just now coming out of the same fog with his "almost ex BPD/NPD girlfriend". He has done the same exact cycle for three years, and still has a hard time accepting that she is just not going to change.

Why then, do so many of us choose to stay with a partner that 1) once fulfilled our needs 2) chooses not to anymore 3) seems to have no clue as to what our problem is 4) is unwilling to fix their selves?

No, BPD's, NPD's, asd's...they JUST AREN'T RIGHT FOR ME. No sirree...

[oneflewover]

It is us who are to blame for our own tethering, because we cant either see, nor accept the dynamics of the person we bond with. In our own fear of losing the person, and the relationship, we try to hang onto them, and we HAVE to control them to be the person WE WANT them to be.

My situation was such where it was not my inability to see my ex for who he really was and thus my fears pushing him to be who I wanted him to be, it was that the person who he was and with whom I knew and bonded with, had changed.  So the ground rules, the dynamics, and all the things that went into our marriage and that had existed in a healthy productive manner for years no longer applied.  I was given a foreign map with no compass and no preparation and I had about fifteen minutes to get to my destination.  So not going happen!

The disorder is the blame and the “tethering” that happened to me was my reaction and desperate response to try to understand what was unfolding around me.  I did not want to control my ex, I simply wanted to 1) know what the heck happened to him; 2) help him, me, and us get through it; and 3) honor my marriage vows and stay the committed course.   

The dynamic is one of a disordered one on the opposite side. They aren’t "whole" people, who tend to act the same way. They have no true sense of self, so their morals, behaviors, and actions will differ greatly depending on their immediate need. There is no concrete personality, only on that rises and falls, and floats on the river of need. If their need changes, so does their personality. It’s quite simple if you really think about it.

True if that is what you entered into in the very beginning.  But there are a group of us who did not.  We did not see the disorder nor were we exposed to it until much later.  In my case, shame of the first adultery was what woke the dormant borderline beast.  So we can’t really fault ourselves or say we were trying to force someone to be who they are not capable of being.  He was capable at one time…..he changed.  And I just was not capable of shifting formats alongside with him.     

Where we get into trouble, is we expect the person we bonded with to be the concrete person. We use that as a slide rule on calculating their future actions, thoughts, and behaviors. That’s where the division occurs. As we now know, there is not concrete, just floatability.

Set aside a disordered one….isn’t it okay to have certain expectations from your partner?  It isn’t a “well you have this point or function and I have this point or function and never the two shall meet”.  A relationship is supposed to be a machine where each part serves a purpose and a vital role in order for it to keep running.  And maintenance and upkeep is vital so that the machine keeps working.   Now factor in the disorder, you have one side not quite capable of offering parts to the machine and so the other side does one of two things, overcompensates and rigs itself to work around the missing part or decides it is time to shut the operation down.  In a BPD relationship, the expectations either fall solely on one side or are destined to have constant breakdowns, malfunctions and failures.

So I think our only shortfall is not accepting the realistic application of our expectations.  It is not wrong to have them, never in a healthy relationship!  But when you are involved with someone who is disordered and emotionally handicapped, it is completely unrealistic to think that you can expect many contributions, let alone healthy ones.     

When we are hit with this division, most of us try to tether them to the person we bonded with, and we "want." We try to get them back to the person we want, but the river has changed direction, and the tides have fallen, and they have floated off on a raft of their own needs.

I could never lay blame to myself for trying to tether the man that I once loved.  This is what we do for our spouse/partner when they have fallen, become wayward, and are not well.  We not only outreach, but we become the anchor so as to make sure THAT they don’t float away.  I think the only kind of reflection that needs to done is how long did we remain anchored for a ship that was destined to get lost as sea?

[Up From Here]

Thank you Unreal,

One of the things I am seeing of myself from this newest perspective I've embraced is that I had a tendency to discuss what past tense was as though it were present tense.  I've been doing that.  Sure, there was allot I didn't know (pretty much everything) about what was going on and in my own stagnation in that mindset...in present day when I do know more, I would keep trying to absolve myself of my own interactions, reactions, and coping mechanisms, substituting responsibility and further, my own healing and growth with education.

I was phrasing my inner dialog in terms of, "Ah-ha!  It's the disorder in her therefore it's no wonder I reacted...thus!"

It's where I'm always a victim and not taking on the challenge of awareness in me.  I can't define anymore than that which has already been defined repeatedly by my own, and similar and even yet...almost identical stories about the actions of my ex-wife and those of any/everyone else.  It won't change the dynamic...it won't validate it anymore than it already is...it won't validate me anymore than I already am and it won't absolve me of the responsibility to grow beyond my own resentments to see the damage I caused...and change...me.

Now that I am out and I do have the opportunity to reach for the truth in me...about...me or stay in what damage I had when I walked in, in addition to the damage I acquired/caused within the marriage and relational entity, from where I am now it seems as simple as I can either choose it...or lose it.

Simple...not easy.

No one can tell me what I need to deal with except me.  I can be told by others what they see in me but ultimately, as we all know, the plate is on my table.  It was denial that kept me in and that belongs to me.  It was denial that refused to accept her as she was and that belongs to me.  It was the same denial that was the very foundation for all the controlling mechanisms I set up and while I can claim ignorance about the disorder, I can't claim it about the fact that somewhere inside of me I said...

NO!  I won't see her like this! (denial/control)

Instead of...

Yes...It is as it is. (acceptance/surrender)

And it's not like I didn't have plenty of chances to make the cognitive choice.  I even remember consciously choosing the denial and consciously fooling myself into placing my denial in a "faith box," thinking that someday all the things I needed her to be would manifest and that "she would see," but the problem was it was I, who didn't see and I, who wouldn't see.

Do I keep giving that to her by hashing out the blame under the guise of that "nasty disorder in her?"  I can but she won't care because she's not in my life anymore...so who carries it?

I do.

Or...

I don't.

For me, the disorder can't be any more disordered...it's well established so it's time to deal with my own disorder and for me to think that simply as that I'm a non means I'm exempt from "disorder" within myself only means more denial and taking assessment from what PDQ wrote about how he interacted with his former spouse(pg 2) and seeing myself in almost, if not every aspect of it...yes indeed there is some re-ordering to do in me regardless of how disordered anyone else is.

Doesn't matter, "why" anymore...it just "is".

Peace, UFH

[PDQuick]

Though, as in the other thread, defining control can be a challenge.  You could almost interpret this in a phylogenetic manner.  We evolve to process social relationships in a certain way, e.g., bonding in a romantic relationship.  Our view of a persona, what we believe is the core of a person, is formed rather early in a relationship.  It takes a lot to change that.  Rather than denial or control, we might have thoughts of, "What am I doing wrong?" or we might blame things external to the person (e.g., stress, life circumstances, etc. . .).  This is more a symptom of lack of comprehension than denial or control.     

Control is the attempt to alter something from its direction or path. Even doing this subconsciencely, or without intent, still is the definition by nature. When we try to get what we want, or need, from something or someone who isnt doing it at that time, irregardless of outside influences or interpretations, it is viewed as controlling. What I did, was a passive contol technique, not a direct one. I thought by changing me, I could induce a change in her. Or, by going against my moral fiber, to give her what she wants, thus, hoping she, then in turn, gives into my needs. I didnt try to actively change her so much as to go against myself, to accomodate her, and hope it was reciprocated. Now really, is that anyway to live?

As far as the outside influences, if a car runs over a donut, do we get mad at the car, and keep wishing for a round, robust donut, or do we gracefully accept the flattened pastry and learn to live with it? I did neither. I didnt know why my donut was flat, and I didnt want to accept a flattened one, I wanted the donut the way I found it. The reason being, is that I liked the way I felt with my robust, round donut.

She unlocked something in me. She didnt give it to me, as I now know. I went for years thinking that I felt the way I did because of her and in losing her, I would lose the feeling. Hmmmmmm. Lets look at this.

She made me feel good, great, actually. I can sit here and blame it on the sex, the euphoria, the idealization phase, whatever I want to, but the hard truth of it is, I LOVED ME when she was good. I learned very quickly that I didnt like me much when she was bad, because I felt bad about myself. I took it upon myself to try to solve her problems because when she was down, I was down. The birth of codependency.

Lets see, did I like her? Ahhh, not really. She was a horrible parent, a theif, a user, would lie to you just as soon as look at you, did only things for her benefit, and would demean you for not bowing to her demands. Doesnt sound like a loveable person, now does it?

BUT I LOVED HER! My first sentence to my therapist, and the question that begged my brains answer to for many years was, "How can I love a woman that I dont even like as a person?" The short answer, because I loved the way I felt when she was giving me what I needed.

This wasnt her, it was me. I have that potential to feel that way, and it isnt something I took from her. She was just the person who unlocked it inside of me.

[PDQuick]

Why then, do so many of us choose to stay with a partner that 1) once fulfilled our needs 2) chooses not to anymore 3) seems to have no clue as to what our problem is 4) is unwilling to fix their selves?

Rcoaster, welcome to defining the goal of the reason you are here. Its about us, not them. It took the presence of a disordered soul to hurt you to the point of finally realizing, and asking yourself these questions. In the answers, and the acceptance of your answers, you will find happiness.

[Unreal]

Wow. This is so insightful, and exactly the kind of thing I wrestled with for the duration of my own relationship with BPDxw. When you read it from another person's point of view, it is so obvious that it is very much a parent/child type of thing. It's amazing how when we are in it, we don't fully see that-just hanging onto that hope that  they will change for us, and relieve us of our "parental duty" to teach them the ways of a healthy relationship-as if we can actually do that. Yet, they are (biologically anyway) adults, and what we fail to see is that most often they already know what is right/wrong, but they just can't help their selves to lash out in destructive ways. I put the burden on myself to "teach her" how to be "nice, compassionate, patient, a good communicator, respectful of my feelings, etc.". How many of us all did the same thing? One of my best friends is just now coming out of the same fog with his "almost ex BPD/NPD girlfriend". He has done the same exact cycle for three years, and still has a hard time accepting that she is just not going to change

Insightful?  Thanks, but I don't agree.  I see it as brushing the surface.  At that point, my insight was an observation, namely when she was stressed out and upset, she turned all of her attentions on my behaviors and became angry when I was found wanting.  I remember, when she was upset, consciously thinking to my self, ":)on't screw up.  Make sure you look empathetic. Etc. . ."  She wasn't usually upset with me at first, but everything sure as hell ended up that way regardless of the original problem.  In that quote, I was asking her to do something that she could never do.  Yes, this was a path towards insight, but I wasn't quite there yet.  Before this, I might have been perplexed, or felt that her responses were fair, if overzealous.  I recall complaining about her "over-reacting" quite frequently.  That email was a good characterization of her behavior toward me and what I wanted from her.  But, it was still reflective of a lack of full comprehension.  I also didn't feel I was in a role to teach her how to react.  She was/is a psychologist.  The dynamic early in our relationship, which she hammered throughout, was that I was the socially awkward one, and that I was the one who had difficulties managing adult relationships (projection).  She claimed to feel like she was in a mother-role with me.  This drove me nuts, by the way.  I found it very demeaning and insulting.  It was like she was trying to pin me into this image she had that I was a brilliant geek with no social skills.  And, it just amplified throughout.  I wasn't trying to teach her; I was just trying to communicate what I felt.  I was trying to defuse conflict; I dislike conflict.  I wanted us to argue fairly.  I'd suggest all sorts of things to make that happen, but I didn't see it as all her fault or her problem.  I was trying to solve a dynamic, an interaction.  I felt, at the time, that she was also trying to solve the same thing.  The realization that needed to occur was that she was mentally ill, that this pattern of problems was due to severely disordered emotional regulation, that the distortions and fud that I was dealing with were a moving target, and that I had no understanding of who this person really was.  

[Unreal]

so it's time to deal with my own disorder and for me to think that simply as that I'm a non means I'm exempt from "disorder" within myself only means more denial and taking assessment from what PDQ wrote about how he interacted with his former spouse(pg 2) and seeing myself in almost, if not every aspect of it...yes indeed there is some re-ordering to do in me regardless of how disordered anyone else is.

Yes, and part of the path to that end (understanding your issues), is to understand how the distortion came about and why you hung on so long to what I'll call the primacy effect. 

[PDQuick]

My situation was such where it was not my inability to see my ex for who he really was and thus my fears pushing him to be who I wanted him to be, it was that the person who he was and with whom I knew and bonded with, had changed.  So the ground rules, the dynamics, and all the things that went into our marriage and that had existed in a healthy productive manner for years no longer applied.  I was given a foreign map with no compass and no preparation and I had about fifteen minutes to get to my destination.

All of our partners changed, and in that change, we fell into the dance. Some partners changed in the first few months, some waited years.

True if that is what you entered into in the very beginning.  But there are a group of us who did not.  We did not see the disorder nor were we exposed to it until much later.  In my case, shame of the first adultery was what woke the dormant borderline beast.   So we can’t really fault ourselves or say we were trying to force someone to be who they are not capable of being.  He was capable at one time…..he changed.  And I just was not capable of shifting formats alongside with him.

Was it the shame that changed him? Was he not in a committed marriage, with vows? If he was the person you thought he was, would the shame have ever happened, because the first step to the shame was the actual adultery act itself. Just something to think about.     

Set aside a disordered one….isn’t it okay to have certain expectations from your partner?  It isn’t a “well you have this point or function and I have this point or function and never the two shall meet”.  A relationship is supposed to be a machine where each part serves a purpose and a vital role in order for it to keep running.  And maintenance and upkeep is vital so that the machine keeps working.   Now factor in the disorder, you have one side not quite capable of offering parts to the machine and so the other side does one of two things, overcompensates and rigs itself to work around the missing part or decides it is time to shut the operation down.  In a BPD relationship, the expectations either fall solely on one side or are destined to have constant breakdowns, malfunctions and failures.

So I think our only shortfall is not accepting the realistic application of our expectations.  It is not wrong to have them, never in a healthy relationship!  But when you are involved with someone who is disordered and emotionally handicapped, it is completely unrealistic to think that you can expect many contributions, let alone healthy ones.

It is not wrong to have expectations from your spouse, being that you both agreed on a set guideline for the marriage. If one faulters, that is ok, if you are willing to overlook it, and work to make it better. We all are human, and make mistakes. Where we go wrong is trying to hold onto what once was, and trying to recreate that. I think we all gave more than we knew we should, and even knew that it would come back and bite us. But we tried, and thats ok. The really bad thing is how much we were hurt in the process, a process that we put ourselves through. It isnt a blame game, we went through everything willingly.      

I could never lay blame to myself for trying to tether the man that I once loved.  This is what we do for our spouse/partner when they have fallen, become wayward, and are not well.  We not only outreach, but we become the anchor so as to make sure THAT they don’t float away.  I think the only kind of reflection that needs to done is how long did we remain anchored for a ship that was destined to get lost as sea?

Exactly, where does the seperation come in from where we are hurt, and we accept that for what it is, like Up From Here has in this thread, to hurting, and demanding everything from answers to restitution, even if its on an emotional level?

[Unreal]

Control is the attempt to alter something from its direction or path. Even doing this subconsciencely, or without intent, still is the definition by nature. When we try to get what we want, or need, from something or someone who isnt doing it at that time, irregardless of outside influences or interpretations, it is viewed as controlling. What I did, was a passive contol technique, not a direct one. I thought by changing me, I could induce a change in her. Or, by going against my moral fiber, to give her what she wants, thus, hoping she, then in turn, gives into my needs. I didnt try to actively change her so much as to go against myself, to accomodate her, and hope it was reciprocated. Now really, is that anyway to live?

By that definition, anything is control.  If you understood the problem, namely that your ex-wife was disordered, that your perception of her core traits was flawed, and you decided to try and re-make her into what you wanted by some method, that would be controlling.  However, what you were doing, without understanding her, was trying to navigate and maintain a relationship in the face of rather extreme distress.  So, you adopted passive methods to affect your environment (e.g., stop rages, etc. . .).   Is that control?  Sure, you've done something to affect your environment (name a behavior that doesn't).  Is it a disordered control?  Only in as much as it reflects the state of your distortion with regards to the relationship and perpetuates an unhealthy situation. 

[PDQuick]

Bottom line still exists, and it isnt a bad thing, it just is. I was faced with something I didnt like, and instead of making a decision on it and acting on it, I tried to change her. Admittedly, trying to change a behavor, and influence a person is one thing, banging your head up against the wall trying to "influence" someone for 11 years or so is another thing all together. 

[Up From Here]

 

Thank you so much again, everyone.

I need to correct myself here.

"Why," in terms of assigning blame doesn't matter to me anymore.

"Why," in terms of self discovery matters to me a great deal.

Discovery: maybe a little black/white thinking of my own here.

[oneflewover]

Bottom line still exists, and it isnt a bad thing, it just is. I was faced with something I didnt like, and instead of making a decision on it and acting on it, I tried to change her. Admittedly, trying to change a behavor, and influence a person is one thing, banging your head up against the wall trying to "influence" someone for 11 years or so is another thing all together. 

That explains it then.  

But yes, guilty too.  I hung on for way to long and ultimately only injured myself.

True if that is what you entered into in the very beginning.  But there are a group of us who did not.  We did not see the disorder nor were we exposed to it until much later.  In my case, shame of the first adultery was what woke the dormant borderline beast.   So we can’t really fault ourselves or say we were trying to force someone to be who they are not capable of being.  He was capable at one time…..he changed.  And I just was not capable of shifting formats alongside with him.

Was it the shame that changed him? Was he not in a committed marriage, with vows? If he was the person you thought he was, would the shame have ever happened, because the first step to the shame was the actual adultery act itself. Just something to think about.

You and I have had this round table discussion before....  I have thought about it ten fold and still come to the same conclusion, I believe the act and his temptation to experience it was the catalyst for what invoked the disorder that was within him and that he may have been able to successfully suppress because he was not full of shame until then.

It’s okay to say something is just not right for yourself but sometimes when you are in a marriage, that commitment kind of makes it hard to take on that stance and why so many of us who were married with a BPD find ourselves looking for ways to set it right again.  I can’t overlook that aspect….it is not a control thing, but a vow thing.  

[rcoaster]

Why then, do so many of us choose to stay with a partner that 1) once fulfilled our needs 2) chooses not to anymore 3) seems to have no clue as to what our problem is 4) is unwilling to fix their selves?

Rcoaster, welcome to defining the goal of the reason you are here. Its about us, not them. It took the presence of a disordered soul to hurt you to the point of finally realizing, and asking yourself these questions. In the answers, and the acceptance of your answers, you will find happiness.

Thanks PDQuick, but I've been through these questions over and over and I believe my answers are similiar to many of the rest of us...

1) Because she was diagnosed with depression and as a bi-polar, and I just thought it was situational and would end with therapy and meds 2) because I thought again that she was just in a "temporary state of stress", and again it would come back as she promised over and over 3) because I was wrapped in the FOG and began to believe her projections that I was oversensitive, unmanly, weird, and had control issues 4) because I truly thought I could "love the demons out of her", and it was my own sense of empathy and honor I was raised with that kept me there, believing in the best of the human spirit and holding onto the light I saw behind her smoky mirror. I BECAME co-dependent along with the enmeshment, but I was not this way in past relationships. It was my own empathy and belief that "love conquers all" that kept me there, and my sense of "honor" and patience that she begged from me which kept me there long after my energy reserves were spent. I just wanted that big poofy donut again too, but i wanted it for her as much as I did for me, because I saw how much she inflicted her own suffering upon herself, and I thought my love could save her from her own shadows. If anything, it wasn't my insecurities that kept me there, but my confidence that she would find happiness within herself, as it seemed so easy for me back then. Now, after all the wreckage, I not only don't believe love conquers all, but believe very little in anything women tell me, and have become so jaded I sometimes wonder how much of her pain, fears and inner turmoil re-conditioned me in that I have almost no ideals anymore.

[PDQuick]

The conclusions that I have come up with are "right for me" at this point. I use to think that you can love too much, believe too much, respect too much, have too much honor, and care too much after I went through what I did. I was jaded. That was my thinking just a short while ago. Now I know that you cant love, honor, respect, believe in, and care too much...for yourself. We were all guilty of putting ourselves on the backburners, and trying to focus on our spouses, or significant others.

If we are to take care of those of us we love, we have to first take care of ourselves in order to facilitate our desires for the others to be taken care of. We are no good if we knock ourselves out of the picture.

[rcoaster]

If we are to take care of those of us we love, we have to first take care of ourselves in order to facilitate our desires for the others to be taken care of. We are no good if we knock ourselves out of the picture.

Right on brother. Right on!

[Up From Here]

If we are to take care of those of us we love, we have to first take care of ourselves in order to facilitate our desires for the others to be taken care of.

In my situation, I was always trying to get my ex-wife to take better care of herself and in doing so abandoned myself and ultimately her in the process because I stopped seeing her rather, her as I believed she should be (and as I now understand) in order to meet my needs.  Some examples are that she wouldn't clean her apt, make her bed, do her dishes, hold a job etc.  I became the authority and symbol of stability for her to both answer to, and lean on in learning to do these things at 38 years old on up and in order to have MY needs met I accepted the role way against my better judgment.  I did have some better judgment but for the sake of my own needs (or even wants...and just plain ego) I abandoned it.  Was I fully aware of what I was doing? No I wasn't but I was aware that something about my choice wasn't right.

Fast forward to marriage.

This is a profound realization for me at this point as even within the embrace of our vows; I was still doing the same thing only with the additional weight of those vows.  My ex-wife had a very different interpretation of the meaning of the same vows in that I was supposed to accept her, for better or worse.

As I sit here and write this I have to ask myself, whose interpretation was more correct?  The borderline or the non?

From where I am now, accepting the worst would have meant that we never would have gotten married in the first place.  That would not have been a rejection of her but an acceptance of her as well as an acceptance of myself in an honest understanding that we just weren't right for each other.  I did love her (25%)...I still do and from here it looks to me like one of the single most loving things I could have done was to let go of her, stop blaming her for not meeting my needs, and move on.  I "tried" to do this several times...let go and move on, but I still can't blame her for talking me back into the relationship. I abandoned myself again...I abandoned her again and I wasn't giving care...of, and to, anyone...I was caretaking everyone.  Yes, the birth of codependency, indeed.

There wasn't anything malicious in any of my motives.  Nothing was about causing harm but that still doesn't absolve me of my own responsibility to see myself for who I was.  I need to so I can change it now.  She didn't show me that she was Ms. Wonderful out of the gate...she showed me that I was Mr. Wonderful and I was getting my validation from her that way rather than working out my own issues and finding my authentic self.  As previously illustrated, when I wasn't Mr. Wonderful, I was trash...in my own perception and I can't ask or demand that a person with a mental illness paint me any differently.  Again, therein was my own distorted thinking, trying to control the 25% I loved to BE my self image.  Yikes.

I just caught myself this past week...looking for outward validation...same stuff...but I caught it.  Rome wasn't built in a day.

This thread is amazing.

Thank you everyone.

Peace, UFH

[arjay]

From where I am now, accepting the worst would have meant that we never would have gotten married in the first place.  That would not have been a rejection of her but an acceptance of her as well as an acceptance of myself in an honest understanding that we just weren't right for each other.  I did love her (25%)...I still do and from here it looks to me like one of the single most loving things I could have done was to let go of her, stop blaming her for not meeting my needs, and move on.  I "tried" to do this several times...let go and move on, but I still can't blame her for talking me back into the relationship. I abandoned myself again...I abandoned her again and I wasn't giving care...of, and to, anyone...I was caretaking everyone.  Yes, the birth of codependency, indeed.

That was pretty much "me" too UFH.  I could have written that word for word.

Peace

[oneflewover]

This is a profound realization for me at this point as even within the embrace of our vows; I was still doing the same thing only with the additional weight of those vows.  My ex-wife had a very different interpretation of the meaning of the same vows in that I was supposed to accept her, for better or worse.

As I sit here and write this I have to ask myself, whose interpretation was more correct?  The borderline or the non?

That is the tricky part huh, for better or worse.  A tremendous amount of guilt comes tied to those three little words.

Let's face it, it really takes emotional maturity to be in a committed relationship/marriage.  Both partners have to not only bring something to the table but share it and appreciate the offerings from the across the table.  All so that a healthy and satisfying feast can be had.

At the end of the day, in my situation my ex's plate was always full and he was somehow satisfied and I sat across the table with very little and more longings.  Better for him and well, seemed worse for me as things progressed.  I don't think those three little words were meant to be like how we so often misconstrue and interpret them.

Prior to the madness, I have to say I was in a really cool marriage.  We were equals, and we shared our offerings with respect, enthusiasm and satisfaction.  I experienced what worked so when I saw what didn't work creep in...I voiced and I objected.  I expected him to do something about it, after all, he was the one that made the change.  I resisted it.  I thumbed my nose at his new offerings.  He thumbed is nose at my need for the same old dish.  So hostility and resentment brewed and we became two people who no longer cared to even sit at the same table together let alone look at each other's plates.  Lonely feast for sure...it takes so much to make a great meal, behind the scenes preparation, contributions, and presentation.  You can't just take it for granted and focus in on one's sole appetite and devouring what is before you.  I don't know I am rambling in metaphors...

It just takes such maturity to be in a relationship and I see where I was ill equipped and I certainly can see where my ex was ill equipped.  God, if I knew now what I didn't know then...

[Up From Here]

That was pretty much "me" too UFH.  I could have written that word for word.

Arjay my friend,

I know you could have as I've read allot of your posts to this regard and you have also been one of those voices that I've paid attention to in looking inward.  It's such a large gift not only to be able to relate to the stories but that I'm not alone in the things that I'm looking at inside of me.  The healing and eye opening is tremendous.  Some of these things hurt to look at for sure but I wouldn't trade where I am now for where I was a year ago...even a week ago, for anything.

I see the gentleness and the strength in those who do the work here and I admire that to tears...truly because it's a part of myself that I have ignored for so long for the sake of "coping," and avoiding what I have feared about me instead of facing my own fears which, is how I chose and remained in, my former marriage in that I avoided how I actually felt about myself and the life I had created thus far in order to be a hero.

Thank you for being here, Arjay.  Thank you so very much.

OFO my friend,

Yes, a huge amount of guilt can come with those vows if, as in my case, they are made from a place of that need that I have so identified with at this point in my journey.  It was the same for her just from a different point of perspective.  "For better or worse," came with a much heavier price than I was willing to admit to myself and yes, one that she wasn't willing to fully disclose until later on as well.  In this, we were both dishonest with each other and ourselves so I can't point any fingers simply because I'm a "non."

Lord, I know how much it hurts when the table slowly shifts like finding myself at the empty side of a Lazy Susan and wondering what happened.  In my situation though, the withdrawal was allot more mutual.  It just wasn't right (there's that phrase again...boy do I identify) and neither of us knew why.  The blame and accusations and insecurities and coping...existing in the blinding confusion simply became the norm.

Again for me, I have said so many times that I didn't move my whole life across the continent for this but the truth of it is...yes I did.  I didn't move for some noble "love motivated" reason.  Yes indeed I did and do love her but all those flags had come up enough times for me to have paid attention to them yet I still ignored them.  No, I didn't "want" this for my life but I still chose it and what hurts even more now is that I didn't want it for her either.  Man, that breaks my heart like nothing else.  Maybe if my participation was a catalyst for her own healing as well as my own...I don't know.  I guess if I could have helped rather than harmed...but I don't think I did help her as at last glance, she was just repeating the patterns with a new awareness of how to "study up" for BPD in order to hide behind the knowledge of it without touching the reality of it...in her.  She's so gifted...so brilliant and I just wish she would not be so afraid of it.

Nothing left for me to do there so here I am.  Again, exactly where I need to be...letting go, saying goodbye, looking at me and praying for us both.

Thank you so much OFO.

Thank you both...thank you all.

Peace, love, and blessings, UFH

[Up From Here]

"Instead of looking for someone with the capacity of meeting my needs, I took a person incapable of meeting them, and tried to force them to be the person she wasnt. Thats all on me folks. My bad. Each time a fight erupted, I was more focused on getting her to meet my needs than actually having them met. I tollerated terrible things on a quest to acheive that. I tollerated it, because I had a goal, I was going to transform her into that person I so desperately wanted."


Just re-reading this thread, resonating with the truths, and staying focused.

Peace, UFH

[AnonNZ]

Thanks to everyone who's posted.

This popped up at exactly the same time I started wondering if this was the right place to be, or if there was anything left here for me to learn from. The anger is passing and I'm looking more and more at what I contributed - this has given me a lot to think about

[Up From Here]

so it's time to deal with my own disorder and for me to think that simply as that I'm a non means I'm exempt from "disorder" within myself only means more denial and taking assessment from what PDQ wrote about how he interacted with his former spouse(pg 2) and seeing myself in almost, if not every aspect of it...yes indeed there is some re-ordering to do in me regardless of how disordered anyone else is.

Yes, and part of the path to that end (understanding your issues), is to understand how the distortion came about and why you hung on so long to what I'll call the primacy effect. 

It's been addressed in another way and it's coming around in me now.


It was how and when we met.  Everything in my life seemed to be falling apart and so, enter a woman whose life is in shambles.  It was a perfect way to avoid dealing with what wasn't working in my life...by "helping" her get her life together. She was looking for it and said so in many ways and I made myself available for it.

"Thank you for helping me understand what I need to do.  You help me so much.  You're my hero.  You're so wonderful."  This was the antithisis of all those things that I hadn't reconciled within myself and I was getting from outside of myself.  Even after I rebuilt and reordered my life after leaving her early in our relationship when we tried to be together the first time, she became so abusive that I left and moved very far away, this dance continued.  I was "even more wonderful for being so strong" that I could escape her abuse, rebuild my life from next to nothing, and remain available for her remorse.  I was a hero again.

Some of these things went on for years and in them I was "valid"...I had a purpose and a reason.  I could feel good about myself because she told me how wonderful I was.  The truth was that I didn't feel good about myself at all which was why I would when the parts of her that I loved would show up to tell me to.  That's all on me.

I'd be okay for a while, then she would break my illusion by acting out, I'd feel horrible and get upset and try to control her into being the part of the woman I loved again.  She would, and again I would become, "valid"...for about two weeks, sometimes longer, for 7 years.

I deluded myself into believing that every time things would cycle around like this that we were making progress.  Of course, it wasn't progress, it was denial. It was avoiding how I truly felt about myself as well as how I truly felt about her which was...

"I love you...you're no where near safe for me but you make me feel (literally, because I put it on her to make me feel by allowing her to make me feel) so good about myself while I won't take responsibility for it."

I wonder how many truly live in that dynamic.  I sure did.

[Im.okay.now]

I wonder how many truly live in that dynamic.  I sure did.

Excellent post UFH ... to answer your question count me in ... i know exactly what you are coming from and talking about.

[Up From Here]

Thank you ION


It always helps to know I'm/we're not alone in these things.

Peace with you my friend, UFH

[tripoley]

She unlocked something in me. She didnt give it to me, as I now know. I went for years thinking that I felt the way I did because of her and in losing her, I would lose the feeling. Hmmmmmm. Lets look at this.

She made me feel good, great, actually. I can sit here and blame it on the sex, the euphoria, the idealization phase, whatever I want to, but the hard truth of it is, I LOVED ME when she was good. I learned very quickly that I didnt like me much when she was bad, because I felt bad about myself. I took it upon myself to try to solve her problems because when she was down, I was down. The birth of codependency.

Lets see, did I like her? Ahhh, not really. She was a horrible parent, a theif, a user, would lie to you just as soon as look at you, did only things for her benefit, and would demean you for not bowing to her demands. Doesnt sound like a loveable person, now does it?

BUT I LOVED HER! My first sentence to my therapist, and the question that begged my brains answer to for many years was, "How can I love a woman that I dont even like as a person?" The short answer, because I loved the way I felt when she was giving me what I needed.

This wasnt her, it was me. I have that potential to feel that way, and it isnt something I took from her. She was just the person who unlocked it inside of me.

PDQ,

OMG!  You nailed it.  This explains A LOT.  I didn't like mine either.  She is one of the most unlikeable people I've ever met.  And like you, I feel bad about myself too.  I really need to work on that...

Thanks for the thread and best regards,

Scott