"I don't want to help you because then you'd just expect more."

[Cat Familiar]

My husband has been doing therapy for a short while, but doesn't feel like the therapist is "doing" anything, other than being a good listener. I've built up my "validation" bank and have tried not to say anything that could be interpreted as "criticism". He hasn't dysregulated for quite a while--short outbursts, but no out of control dramas. However, he's been consistently grouchy and irritable.

I chose to have a "real" conversation, like I'd have with a non. I mentioned how challenging it was to be glared at, spoken to in an irritable tone and otherwise treated with displaced anger, when he really wasn't angry at me. I told him that it was really frustrating not to have a partner I could count on to lend me a hand with some of the heavy physical work around here. Such as it would be really nice to have someone help me lift something heavy when I was fixing something, rather than have to get creative about how I could accomplish it on my own. And I mentioned that I quit asking him for assistance after the dirty looks, the sighs, the victim stance.

So we had an honest conversation and perhaps the most honest thing he's said was that he didn't want to help me, because it was a slippery slope and if he did, he'd be working all the time around here. (Black and white thinking) He likes being a "scholar" and wants to use his time to pursue his intellectual interests, rather than being a "farmer" and "rancher" like I am. He went on to say that in the past he was ridiculed for his incompetence. I listened and didn't say much.

A few years ago he got really mad at me when we were doing couples therapy and I said his neglect of completing his share of household tasks (leaving wet laundry in the washer for days, making a mess in the kitchen) made me think I was living with a teenager. I got that "teenager" comment thrown in my face for years, but it was a very apt comparison. What he said yesterday makes me think I'm living with a much younger child.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Notwendy]

I think I faced something similar when the issue was the strict division between what my H considered women's work and his work. I think it included a bit of black and white thinking. It was along the lines of "fairness". If he did the dishes once, it was unfair and then I'd expect him to do the dishes, and then he'd be a "henpecked" husband. All the while, I had full intentions of pulling my own weight in the house and not henpecking anyone. I also would do the "man" jobs like take out the trash.

I think it also has to do with what "jobs" they are used to, and competent at. It could be that animals /rural chores are just not his thing. Pets are my H's thing so he takes care of that.

While I think it is generally true that we marry our emotional level match, we don't always have the same life experiences or skills. In my case, I was parentified early on, taking on most household tasks from an early age. My H had a momma who did everything, for him and also for his dad. I don't think his dad ever washed a dish, or clothes, or cooked since the day he was married. However, my H and his dad did things like mow the lawn, take out the trash. This was the vision/experience my H brought into marriage. Asking him to cook or do the dishes was a big deal- he wasn't used to doing them, nor did he feel competent at it, and he didn't have a male role model do it.

As to laundry, and other chores, it is a learning curve. If wet clothes are left and get smelly, then that is a learning experience. I found that I had to let the learning process work. I may have learned some household things at age 12, but that doesn't mean he did.

When I hear an explanation that just doesn't make sense to me- like doing someone might make it be all the time- I don't JADE like I used to. I don't know if there is a way to change black and white thinking. I think I just have to let things be. I was afraid to not cook- as it used to result in my H being angry, but he's learned to fend for himself some evenings- and fix simple things. I think that this was a strange and new experience for him.  My kids know how to cook, clean and do laundry.  

[Cat Familiar]

As to laundry, and other chores, it is a learning curve. If wet clothes are left and get smelly, then that is a learning experience. I found that I had to let the learning process work. I may have learned some household things at age 12, but that doesn't mean he did.

When I hear an explanation that just doesn't make sense to me- like doing someone might make it be all the time- I don't JADE like I used to. I don't know if there is a way to change black and white thinking. I think I just have to let things be. I was afraid to not cook- as it used to result in my H being angry, but he's learned to fend for himself some evenings- and fix simple things. I think that this was a strange and new experience for him.  My kids know how to cook, clean and do laundry.  

Unfortunately with the laundry, it hasn't been a learning experience. He's done it over and over, then asked me why his clothes have brown marks on them after he's put them in the dryer. Mostly I just don't want the washer to stink up my clothes, so now I open the lid so that the clothes don't make the washer mildewed too.

Today I knew he was taking his car into the shop. When I fed the horses this morning, I didn't walk a few hundred feet down the road and open our gate. I was still working in the barn when I heard him drive by and I went out to the driveway to say goodbye. He looked toward the gate and said, "You didn't open it?"

Nope. Not only did I not open it, I turned on the irrigation for that part of the field, so he'd have to time it well so that neither he nor his car got wet. (Me being passive aggressive.)

[Cat Familiar]

I've always been of a mindset that you help your partner, even if it's something you don't particularly want to do or something for which you don't have expertise.

I've never thought that if I do something for them/with them, then they will take advantage of me in the future. It's a foreign way of thinking. I'm into the Do Unto Others mode.

So not opening the gate was a different choice for me. I admit, it was kind of fun. And it's hard to believe that someone is that lazy that they expect their wife to open the gate for them. I'd be happy to do it most times, but really. I think he needs a bit of consequences so that he actually appreciates what I do for him.

[Notwendy]

From my own experience, I think it is about a mindset- how we see ourselves in relationship to other people, and the risks we take. There is always a risk that someone else might take advantage of us, and while nobody wants to be a pushover, how much risk we take about that could be different for different people. Of course, if we get an e mail saying " hello you have inherited money, all you have to do is send a check" most of us would be thinking- no way. But to do something nice for someone is a much smaller risk and a less suspicious situation.

It could also reflect a bit of a co-dependent mindset- as a way to control what the other person may or may not do, but we can be responsible for not agreeing to do something. We can do something nice for someone, and if it seems they are taking advantage of us, then we can always choose to say no, or stop doing it. However, saying "no" is risky- it could result in the other person being angry. Saying "no" makes us feel like the "bad guy". So avoiding the situation by not setting up an expectation might be a protective mechanism.

Was this the case in your H's FOO? If saying "no" was not tolerated in his family, the members may have gone to one side or the other- always say yes, or not to hardly ever say yes.

I went to the other side. I didn't even know that "saying no" was an option. Our MC helped me with this by showing me to pay attention to my own feelings- and if I was doing something and feeling very resentful about it, then I was stepping over that line.

I also came up with my own philosophy about such things along the lines of Karma. I don't want to be co-dependent or taken advantage of, but if, in the great grand scheme of things, I err on the side of kindness, and putting some good into the world, then, well, that's more good in the world. But it isn't doing good or kindness to be a doormat, and be resentful, so I include kindness to myself in that idea as well.

Doing things for others that they can do themselves- caretaking- isn't necessarily being kind to them as it could take away their responsibility, so I agree, your H can open that gate himself. He can also wear his own stinky clothes if he leaves them in the washer. One of my thoughts about this would be to not share one. That may sound strange- but it may be a solution- get one that you only use yourself

[waverider]

I have come across another reason for reluctance to do chores. My wifes mother I suspect is OCPD, ie a perfectionist where nobody can do anything to her standard. Hence mife wife always believed chores should be done to perfection and she always felt no matter how well she did them it was never good enough. The result of this is she talks the theory of a perfect job, making her the perfect armchair expert, but she believes her attempt would not be good enough and so avoids doing anything at all.

It is a fear of not being able to live up to her own ingrained standards, and hence validating her mothers view of her not being good enough.

Going back to the topic title "I dont want to help because then you would expect a better job, which I dont think I am capable of."...

[Notwendy]

You make a great point WW.

I am not sure what is going on with my mom, but her house is spotless. However, she doesn't do the housework. She has always had help- and I did it, but then, she would be critical of how I did it. Heaven help someone who goes to the store to pick up something she wants and gets the wrong brand.

Like your wife, my mother does very little, and when she does, she seems to need constant reassurance that she did it OK.

My house is clean- from the cleanliness aspect, but it is not perfect. The kids' shoes, or toys, could be wherever they left them. They do know how to pick things up, but I am pretty loose about that, probably because of how I grew up- with my mom being upset if we left something out and didn't pick it up. But I can see where perfectionism can be a hindrance to doing something.

My H also grew up with the message " not good enough", and he is extremely competent in his job. You have a point about the perfectionism though- "women's work" is not his area of expertise. Maybe he didn't want to seem incompetent at it. Yet, the few times he has cleaned up the kitchen, ( I am not sure why he does it once in a blue moon) he does a much better job than I do. I do it all the time, so for me, if it isn't perfect, I just get back to it later.

[Ceruleanblue]

I've always been of a mindset that you help your partner, even if it's something you don't particularly want to do or something for which you don't have expertise.

I've never thought that if I do something for them/with them, then they will take advantage of me in the future. It's a foreign way of thinking. I'm into the Do Unto Others mode.

So not opening the gate was a different choice for me. I admit, it was kind of fun. And it's hard to believe that someone is that lazy that they expect their wife to open the gate for them. I'd be happy to do it most times, but really. I think he needs a bit of consequences so that he actually appreciates what I do for him.



 

I have that exact same mindset. My partner may want something of me that isn't my thing or completely my interest, but I believe trying it out is my job as a good spouse(if it doesn't cross a boundary). I mean, I've done some things I never thought I'd do, like dogsledding, and most recently learning to ride a motorcycle. Now, did either of these really interest me? No, not really, but I did it because to me, that's what good partners do. The dogsledding was in a past relationship, and I really threw myself into it, and actually liked it a lot more than the motorcycle riding that BPDh wants me to do! I never felt I might die dogsledding 

I agree too that we need to show them consequences to their actions. It may have felt passive aggressive to not open the gate for him, but was it really? I mean, he needs the gate open, he can open it? If there was more back and forth, and compromise, I'm sure you'd bend over backwards to help him, because you feel like he does the same for you! I did the same by refusing to ride my motorcycle after he put classes before my health issue at the time. Actions have consequences, and I'd been sparing him normal consequences just because I feel he has mental issue. Well, even pwBPD or mental issues, can learn cause and effect, or how WE want to be treated. At least that is my though on it.

[Notwendy]

I have that exact same mindset. My partner may want something of me that isn't my thing or completely my interest, but I believe trying it out is my job as a good spouse(if it doesn't cross a boundary). I mean, I've done some things I never thought I'd do, like dogsledding, and most recently learning to ride a motorcycle. Now, did either of these really interest me? No, not really, but I did it because to me, that's what good partners do. The dogsledding was in a past relationship, and I really threw myself into it, and actually liked it a lot more than the motorcycle riding that BPDh wants me to do! I never felt I might die dogsledding 

I agree too that we need to show them consequences to their actions. It may have felt passive aggressive to not open the gate for him, but was it really? I mean, he needs the gate open, he can open it? If there was more back and forth, and compromise, I'm sure you'd bend over backwards to help him, because you feel like he does the same for you! I did the same by refusing to ride my motorcycle after he put classes before my health issue at the time. Actions have consequences, and I'd been sparing him normal consequences just because I feel he has mental issue. Well, even pwBPD or mental issues, can learn cause and effect, or how WE want to be treated. At least that is my though on it.




CB, if you will indulge me for a moment, I would like to share a different perspective that I learned in T and co-dependency groups. It is the idea of acting from a place in us, as opposed to reacting to something our partners do. . The action may be the same, but it comes from a different decision for us, one that is not dependent on the other person.

"I believe that trying it out is being a good spouse" "I never felt I might die dogsledding" 



Not necessarily. Doing something that you feel is dangerous to you is not being a good spouse, it is violating your own values as far as protecting yourself. Your life, your body, your well being belongs to you. You are not obligated to harm yourself for anyone.


If there was more back and forth, and compromise, I'm sure you'd bend over backwards to help him, because you feel like he does the same for you! I did the same by refusing to ride my motorcycle after he put classes before my health issue at the time.




The reason not to open the gate is the feeling of resentment Cat may have about doing it. Her H not doing things may be a factor in the feeling of that resentment but making him the reason takes the control of that resentment away from Cat. Waiting for Cat's H to change that by becoming more considerate, means putting control of her feelings in his hands. However, she can take care of her own resentment by not doing things for him that he can do himself. Sure, she can choose to do something for him out of kindness, but kindness and resentment don't usually occur at the same time- so take care of the resentment. This doesn't apply to doing something for someone that they can not do. If for some reason, Cat's H could not open the gate ( arms full of groceries or something) then she would do it, even if it inconvenienced her.

When we do things from our genuine selves, instead of basing our motivation on our SO's response- setting up an expectation " If I ride motorcycles for him, then he will be considerate of me"  or " I had better have sex with him so he will not get mad at me"- we can build a resentment.

I was in that place a while back. I had a boatload of resentments, but paying attention to them, and trying to act from my center, not react has made a difference.

[Cat Familiar]

I have come across another reason for reluctance to do chores. My wifes mother I suspect is OCPD, ie a perfectionist where nobody can do anything to her standard. Hence mife wife always believed chores should be done to perfection and she always felt no matter how well she did them it was never good enough. The result of this is she talks the theory of a perfect job, making her the perfect armchair expert, but she believes her attempt would not be good enough and so avoids doing anything at all.

It is a fear of not being able to live up to her own ingrained standards, and hence validating her mothers view of her not being good enough.

Going back to the topic title "I dont want to help because then you would expect a better job, which I dont think I am capable of."...

Yes, this rings true with my husband. His dad was a textbook narcissist (a very nasty man) and his mother was a sweetheart, incapable of protecting her children from the rages of her husband. Though his father was incompetent in doing household tasks, that didn't stop him from being ultra-critical. (Ironically enough, his dad was a "scholar" too and had several advanced degrees from universities around the world. And his favorite martini gin is the same one his dad drank. He hated his dad, yet he modeled his preferences.)

Also his ex-wife was critical of how he helped around the house, even telling him once he was "holding a hammer the wrong way," which, knowing him, was probably true (although I would never say such a thing.)

He often talks about not being able to do things good enough, so it's no wonder he takes pleasure almost exclusively in pursuits of the mind, since he has always been rewarded for having a brilliant mind. (Even there, he still doubts himself, but sometimes I think it's just to solicit praise.)

And Notwendy, I think you're onto something with the idea of not being able to say "no" in his FOO. His sisters are accomplished and everyone has a professional degree. On the surface, it looks like the perfect family (other than the nasty dad--and I'm glad I was able to meet him before he died or I would never have believed some of the stories). But underneath the glossy veneer, there's some major dysfunction.

[Cat Familiar]

I have that exact same mindset. My partner may want something of me that isn't my thing or completely my interest, but I believe trying it out is my job as a good spouse(if it doesn't cross a boundary). I mean, I've done some things I never thought I'd do, like dogsledding, and most recently learning to ride a motorcycle. Now, did either of these really interest me? No, not really, but I did it because to me, that's what good partners do. The dogsledding was in a past relationship, and I really threw myself into it, and actually liked it a lot more than the motorcycle riding that BPDh wants me to do! I never felt I might die dogsledding 

I agree too that we need to show them consequences to their actions. It may have felt passive aggressive to not open the gate for him, but was it really? I mean, he needs the gate open, he can open it? If there was more back and forth, and compromise, I'm sure you'd bend over backwards to help him, because you feel like he does the same for you! I did the same by refusing to ride my motorcycle after he put classes before my health issue at the time. Actions have consequences, and I'd been sparing him normal consequences just because I feel he has mental issue. Well, even pwBPD or mental issues, can learn cause and effect, or how WE want to be treated. At least that is my though on it.

Thanks for the reminder of being open to new experiences, Ceruleanblue. I definitely am helpful and considerate around our home, but through him not pulling his share (or even being a responsible roommate) I haven't been as open to participating in some of the events he enjoys, such as concerts. I'll go to the ones I like, but I'm no longer a fan of extremely loud music and he likes these endlessly repetitive jam bands that play these loud interminably long guitar solos. Faced with going to a show like that, I'd rather go to bed early than endure that. So it's a balancing act--not going to events that I would hate, but perhaps being more open to something that I think might only marginally suck.

It wasn't that I considered not opening the gate passive-aggressive, it was turning on the irrigation sprinkler, which hits the driveway and gate as it rotates. It was the perfect passive-aggressive act in that he knows I'm starting new grass seed in the meadow, yet he doesn't know when the sprinklers come on. Also, I didn't know exactly when he was leaving, so it was likely that I would have opened the gate after feeding the horses. In sum, I came off as completely blameless, while channelling my irritation into something I got a good laugh over. I know I'm a jerk sometimes and I need to act that out occasionally, but I prefer to do it in ways where it's not apparent to others that I'm a jerk.

In other news, I've been leaving the frying pan on the stove that he used three days ago to cook his breakfast of fried eggs. I'm wondering if he will put it away dirty (it's a cast iron pan, so it hides the grease), if he will wash it when he realizes it's still dirty, or how long it will remain on the stove. Any guesses?

[Cat Familiar]

When we do things from our genuine selves, instead of basing our motivation on our SO's response- setting up an expectation " If I ride motorcycles for him, then he will be considerate of me"  or " I had better have sex with him so he will not get mad at me"- we can build a resentment.

I was in that place a while back. I had a boatload of resentments, but paying attention to them, and trying to act from my center, not react has made a difference.

Notwendy, here you've nailed yet another issue my husband has. He will do very nice, exceedingly generous things for people, like taking a group of people out to dinner and a show, but it comes with strings attached. He expects to be thanked excessively and "appreciated." Typically people do thank him, but it's not as exuberant as he thinks it should be and then he gets depressed later and says, "Nobody appreciates me." It's such a pattern--I can see it coming. He gets really excited about doing something nice for somebody, then he does it, then he feels unappreciated, resentful and feels like "there is something wrong" with him.

I used to try to talk with him about this pattern (before I realized he was a pwBPD) and then he'd inevitably say, "You're on their side."

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I get what NotWendy is saying, but for me, I didn't agree to any hobbies with my spouse with ANY strings attached. I just did it because to me, that is part of being a good partner. Would I hope that BPDh would do the same? Sure, but I know that is never a guarantee, due to the huge double standards and narcissism he has. I just do it because I want US to be closer. I did however end the motorcycle riding due to HIS actions.


I knew if I kept riding, after he really disrespected me while I was trying so hard to learn, that I WOULD come to resent him. Resentment is a marriage killer, and I guard carefully against it. I'm not resentment free, but I'm always working on not carrying resentment. Sometimes it takes a couple days, but I've learned to just let all the hateful crap and mean stuff he does go, and try hard to work on forgiveness. If I don't, it's like he hurts me twice. Then it truly is a lose/lose for me.

Catfamiliar: And I totally get what you are saying about there having to be balance. I used to do way more things that BPDh wanted, but I saw there was no balance, and that we were doing all the things HE wanted, but few of mine. Now, like you, I agree to do some(actually quite a lot), but I'm selective. He doesn't like it, but I'm not going to do things that put my life at risk(ride on his bike with him), or do things I find totally boring.


Oh, and I think it's totally human nature to sometimes have a "take that" moment. We nons aren't saints, and I think most of us here do a pretty good job of rising above, but every now and then, especially if they are none the wiser, I think it's can be a morale booster for us.

[Cat Familiar]

Well, I get what NotWendy is saying, but for me, I didn't agree to any hobbies with my spouse with ANY strings attached. I just did it because to me, that is part of being a good partner. Would I hope that BPDh would do the same? Sure, but I know that is never a guarantee, due to the huge double standards and narcissism he has. I just do it because I want US to be closer. I did however end the motorcycle riding due to HIS actions.

Catfamiliar: And I totally get what you are saying about there having to be balance. I used to do way more things that BPDh wanted, but I saw there was no balance, and that we were doing all the things HE wanted, but few of mine. Now, like you, I agree to do some(actually quite a lot), but I'm selective. He doesn't like it, but I'm not going to do things that put my life at risk(ride on his bike with him), or do things I find totally boring.

It's definitely a challenge to figure out the balance. When my husband and I first got together, I was open to skiing again. It's not my favorite sport and because of previous injuries, I need to be careful. But I wanted to participate with him, so I took it up again. He takes more risks than me and though I'm probably a better skier, I ski much more slowly than him. It became obvious that we really couldn't ski together because I'm happier working on form, skiing on an easier run, while he likes the challenge and views of going to the top of the mountain and skiing on more difficult terrain.

So, I thought he'd be open to riding horses because I was open to skiing after not doing it for many years. He had very little past experience and much of that hadn't been particularly enjoyable. I thought I could teach him rudimentary riding skills. I think I got him on a horse twice and when I tried to teach him anything, he already knew it all. The second time he fell one way and the horse fell the other way. I have no idea how he pulled the horse down. Both were shaken but OK and that was the end of that. I totally respect that some people may never feel a desire to ride a horse and the axiom of getting back in the saddle is a good one. So I'm totally fine that he doesn't ride.

However, he counts it as I'm neglecting his interests because I don't always go skiing with him. Usually when I haven't gone it's because I've had an active injury. The last couple of years there's been very little snow and it hasn't been worth going. But in his mind (with the black and white thinking) --it's "You never go skiing with me."

[Notwendy]

Compared to my FOO, my H's looked normal! But over time, I learned more about his father, who was critical. I think the whole family walked on eggshells so not not set him off. They did a good job of it, as it took me a while to figure this out.

I also hope you didn't think I was "talking about you" in the other thread. The fence was an example. I also believed that if I was "nice enough" I would get that in return. It takes a lot of work for me to resist that- it is all I knew how to do growing up in my home. If I was good and well behaved enough ( didn't set mom off) I would get approval. I have to really pay attention to my own feelings and if I am feeling resentful, it is a signal to me that I am not acting from my better self.

I wasn't kidding about the washer. My H likes to have his own stuff- his own food and so on. If I eat "his food" he says something! That isn't me- when I was in college, I shared most everything with my room mates- someone eating/borrowing something of mine didn't bother me unless it was long term and inconsiderate. But it bothers him, so we don't share some things. So, if my H chose to mildew the washer, I think I would buy one for me

And I also agree that it is great to share interests with our SO's but to also pay attention to if we are feeling resentful. I get the idea of reciprocity- it exists in most of my relationships. With friends we might share things like who is picking up the kids, or doing things for each other. It seems so easy. It's not that this isn't great or desirable. It's that in my situation, it just didn't work. Eventually I felt burned out from trying so hard. The idea of self care was really foreign. It seemed selfish to me.  I still do nice things for my H and others, but I pay close attention to when I am feeling resentful. It was also hard for me to learn to say no, but I had to. So it isn't about not doing things with our SO's, but it is also about taking care of ourselves and not doing something that makes us feel uncomfortable or resentful.  I shared out these ways of relating, because they were a tough thing for me to make changes with. I know how it feels.

[Cat Familiar]

I wasn't kidding about the washer. My H likes to have his own stuff- his own food and so on. If I eat "his food" he says something! That isn't me- when I was in college, I shared most everything with my room mates- someone eating/borrowing something of mine didn't bother me unless it was long term and inconsiderate. But it bothers him, so we don't share some things. So, if my H chose to mildew the washer, I think I would buy one for me

In a most delicious irony, the washer quit working when his clothes were inside. In true BPD fashion, he thought it was "his fault" in that somehow a beach towel he put in was "too much" for the washer. His clothes were soaking wet as the agitator broke. He looked lost. Not wanting to help too much, I told him to pull them out of the washer and put them in the laundry sink to drain and then go to the laundromat.

We had the repairman out the next day and it's terminal. Something seized up and it's not worth it to repair it. So we bought another washer. But to get the model he wanted (the high tech version--he's got to have the newest computer as soon as Apple releases it), we're waiting over two weeks.

In the meantime, I've been to the laundromat three times. He has been once, with the wet load. It kind of horrified him--it's been a long time since he's been poor and his parents were "one per centers" but to be fair, they inherited their money after he left home. But he's still got this classist kind of fear of being around poverty, yet he thinks of himself as a liberal.

I have friends and acquaintances from all levels of income and class and political values, so I sort of mix with everybody. I often joke that if I assembled all my friends in one room, it would truly be a weird party.

And when we finally get the new washer, he will probably be more diligent about taking his clothes out, since he's paying for it. When ownership comes into play, he takes much better care of his things than the things I've bought.

[Notwendy]

Great story. Yes, all my friends and family would just even out each other's votes. We just have to avoid discussing politics.

I don't like the inconvenience of laundromats and much prefer having a washer/dryer at home, but I have gone to them from time to time and love being able to use all the washers and dryers at once, and the big washers for blankets.

I hope he enjoys ( and takes care of) the new one!

[Notwendy]

One thought about this statement " If I help you, you will take advantage of me" is that it is controlling. It controls the outcome ( and choice) of the other person because that person doesn't have the option of taking advantage or not. It closes off the possibility that the other person might not take advantage, and allows the person to maintain this view- that others will take advantage. It also makes the other person invisible in a way- that person isn't seen for who they are- the motives and behaviors are ascribed to them according to how the person with BPD feels about them... .and that person can't prove them wrong.

It also perpetuates the "victim " role " people will take advantage of me"

It doesn't consider that the person can always say no.

To me, that's a strange way of looking at things. The other person- the receiver is who they are- he or she will make their own choices.

It also negates the joy of giving if they give with fear or don't give someone the chance.

[Cat Familiar]

One thought about this statement " If I help you, you will take advantage of me" is that it is controlling. It controls the outcome ( and choice) of the other person because that person doesn't have the option of taking advantage or not. It closes off the possibility that the other person might not take advantage, and allows the person to maintain this view- that others will take advantage. It also makes the other person invisible in a way- that person isn't seen for who they are- the motives and behaviors are ascribed to them according to how the person with BPD feels about them... .and that person can't prove them wrong.

It also perpetuates the "victim " role " people will take advantage of me"

It doesn't consider that the person can always say no.

To me, that's a strange way of looking at things. The other person- the receiver is who they are- he or she will make their own choices.

It also negates the joy of giving if they give with fear or don't give someone the chance.

Yes, exactly! My husband always seems to give with "strings attached." It's not that he wants some thing, it's that he wants appreciation. And if he doesn't feel appreciated enough, then he gets depressed and feels victimized. Yet it was he who chose to give.

[OffRoad]

Yes, exactly! My husband always seems to give with "strings attached." It's not that he wants some thing, it's that he wants appreciation. And if he doesn't feel appreciated enough, then he gets depressed and feels victimized. Yet it was he who chose to give.

I understand this, but to a slightly different degree. My H expects appreciation for things I don't even know he's done. It's like I'm supposed to be a mind reader and realize he played a card game with S while I was out of the house and deserves appreciation for doing something he actually wanted to do. 

Or he gets these ideas in his head of how something is "supposed" to play out. But in his mind, he has done some FABULOUS thing that everyone is supposed to have recognized, and in reality, he didn't really do much at all.

He does so much in his mind, it's scary. And he convinces himself he actually physically did whatever he was only thinking of.

[waverider]

Yes, exactly! My husband always seems to give with "strings attached." It's not that he wants some thing, it's that he wants appreciation. And if he doesn't feel appreciated enough, then he gets depressed and feels victimized. Yet it was he who chose to give.

I understand this, but to a slightly different degree. My H expects appreciation for things I don't even know he's done. It's like I'm supposed to be a mind reader and realize he played a card game with S while I was out of the house and deserves appreciation for doing something he actually wanted to do. 

Or he gets these ideas in his head of how something is "supposed" to play out. But in his mind, he has done some FABULOUS thing that everyone is supposed to have recognized, and in reality, he didn't really do much at all.

He does so much in his mind, it's scary. And he convinces himself he actually physically did whatever he was only thinking of.

Feeling =facts is closely related to magical thinking in the sense that something is supposed to happen simply by thinking about it, and without actually doing anything to make it happen. The hindsight version is claiming credit for tasks not performed.

It leads to broken promises... I am going to do something... .They have had the thought (impulse/need), to action it requires obligation/responsibility, a motivator they lack. Their recollection is they thought about, so it was dealt with... and they expect acknowledgement for it. even though you may have been the one who had to do it.

If they did do something it would be thought of such an important task their is no way you could not have noticed... .':)id you notice I emptied the dishwasher"=build the pyramids single handed

[Notwendy]

That makes sense WW.

In the grand scheme of things, I think it is sad to not be able to "give from the heart"- to give of yourself for no other motive than the joy of giving, and to share someone else's happiness. My H is generous with the children, and gives of himself at work. With me, it feels sometimes like it is more of a duty. He doesn't seem to get much joy from it- and yes, it feels as if I can not appreciate it enough. On that note, while I could not appreciate him enough for something like loading the dishwasher, if I were to point out how often I did it- ( like all day every day) he would diminish it. I remember this as a source of arguments early on in our marriage where if I were to point out to him what I did, he would say it is no big deal. Once when I was pregnant- and nauseated, I tried to get him to understand why I needed his help and his reply was " I don't see why, women have been having babies for thousands of years, what makes you so special"

Our relationship is better now, but back then, I did not know how to deal with that emotionally.


My mother is not generous to me or my sibs, and when she does give something, it is typically with strings attached. Strangely though, she is most "suspicious" of the people closest to her. -now, that is her children, and then will trust someone she barely knows.

[Notwendy]

In addition to "if I help you, you will take advantage of me"- has anyone experienced that needing their help or not doing something because you need their help as "purposeful withdrawal" or rejection- sort of in the same sense as trying to take advantage.

Our marriage got more difficult when we started having a family. It so happened that I had a lot of nausea and the result of that was that I was not up to doing as much. Being co-dependent, I was mostly the doer, the fixer, the person who worked very hard to sooth my H, keep him happy, and also to get attention.

I had not asked for much in return from him, but pregnancy changed that. I needed his help, but requests for help were met with the kind of responses described. It was then that I began to feel hurt and resentful. The effects of that along with physical discomfort played out in the bedroom. What I did not realize was that the physical changes of pregnancy were not perceived by him as temporary, and not under my control. I had no clue about what was going on with him.

He experienced this as "purposeful withdrawal" , profound rejection, and he was despondent. I didn't know about black and white thinking. I thought he could see that if I was nauseated for a few months, it would be a few months, but he didn't see it that way. In his mind, this was forever. I would "never" have sex with him, if he did the dishes, then he would "always" have to do them.  If he "gave in to me" when I asked him to help with something,  he would become a henpecked husband. He did a good job of hiding these feelings- and instead showed mainly anger, gave me the ST, raged, or said insulting things. The pattern was set. Asking him to do something triggered a hostile response. I stopped asking.

[Cat Familiar]

My mother is not generous to me or my sibs, and when she does give something, it is typically with strings attached. Strangely though, she is most "suspicious" of the people closest to her. -now, that is her children, and then will trust someone she barely knows.

Isn't this an interesting trend with pwBPD, and I realize that not only have both of my husbands (as well as my mother) have been pwBPD, but also a boyfriend I dated for a few years. Wow! Palm meets forehead! 

They haven't had any negative experience (yet) with a stranger, so they trust them fully. 

And Notwendy, I have to give you props for being able to forgive your husband for his behavior during your pregnancies. Frankly, I don't think I could ever forgive someone who said to me what he said to you when you asked for help: "I don't see why, women have been having babies for thousands of years, what makes you so special?" I'm a lot less evolved in the forgiveness department.

I set off a minor dysregulation this morning when I saw the kitchen in a mess after my husband had been drinking last night and I smelled that he had smoked some pot. He fell asleep upstairs, halfway hanging off the bed, and was snoring loudly, so rather than wake him up, I slept downstairs and I could still hear him snore.   

So I sort of confronted him by asking what was the stain on the cutting board. He acted as though he had no idea why the kitchen was in the condition it was, which triggered me, as I knew I was not responsible. Then he accused me of blaming him. I told him my issue was not that it was a mess, but rather that he was denying responsibility. (Like he's not responsible when he's inebriated and stoned.)

It was slightly ugly, but he didn't totally dysregulate and I was able to somewhat steer our conversation back to a civil place. I would do it again, but hopefully more tactfully. Leaving a mess that you will clean up later is OK, but acting as though it were a complete mystery is not.

[Cat Familiar]

Feeling =facts is closely related to magical thinking in the sense that something is supposed to happen simply by thinking about it, and without actually doing anything to make it happen. The hindsight version is claiming credit for tasks not performed.

It leads to broken promises... I am going to do something... .They have had the thought (impulse/need), to action it requires obligation/responsibility, a motivator they lack. Their recollection is they thought about, so it was dealt with... and they expect acknowledgement for it. even though you may have been the one who had to do it.

If they did do something it would be thought of such an important task their is no way you could not have noticed... .':)id you notice I emptied the dishwasher"=build the pyramids single handed

This is the story of my life with my first husband, who was much less functional than my current one. Both are highly intelligent men, but the first one I described as being exceedingly intelligent with very little common sense.

The first one would buy materials for projects he never did. The materials would sit out in the weather until they were ruined. It drove me crazy. But it was as if just having the materials, he felt like he had accomplished something in his mind and he didn't need to make it manifest in reality.

[Notwendy]

Cat, to be honest, I am still working on dealing with those years emotionally.

Your H's response seems pretty typical of feeling shame and projecting it on to you. He knows you knew what he was doing. His response is like the kid getting into the cookie jar, and with a face covered with crumbs declaring "it wasn't me!".

Nobody else lives in your house- who does he think made the mess? 

[Cat Familiar]

After confronting my husband about the mysterious mess in the kitchen this morning, he seemed a bit distant most of the day, so I left him to his own devices. Later I made a nice dinner and we had a great conversation about his study of Buddhism. Not being into any religion or spiritual practice, but having seen many people get hooked in various traditions and religions, I have observed a lot of hierarchy, regimen, spiritual pride and oneupsmanship and I could understand and validate some of the issues he was having regarding his practice. It felt like the most intimate and real conversation we've had in a while.

I try to not confront him, due to his BPD tendency to feel attacked and shamed over insignificant things, but after a while, it really irritates me if he is not honest and accountable. I guess it comes down to picking your battles and some things are worth risking a dysregulation over. I'm glad I could get things back on track before it got ugly, but I would not be true to myself if I didn't occasionally confront certain issues.

[Notwendy]

There are things I would confront my H over, and some things I wish I had some understanding of, but the more I try to understand some things, I believe there isn't a clear explanation beyond that the thoughts/feelings at the time were distorted in some way. Confrontation during a disregulation seems to just make that worse. The best successes I have had have been later, during MT where the T serves as a sort of referee. The T has been a slow process, but there has been better success at talking to my H over things there than at home. I tend to save the discussions for T.

I have concluded from listening to the reasons though, is that, at the times my H is upset, he really feels he is being attacked, rejected, or criticized in some way, even if that isn't the case, and that he is fighting back, defending himself. Since I had no idea what he was thinking, what this looked like to me was abusive behavior out of the blue. This went on for years. His feeling of being attacked many times had nothing to do with my intentions, and his explanations had a violent tone to them, something that surprised me as I am not violent and compared to him, a smaller person who could not hurt him physically if I tried. It didn't occur to me that he could think this.

If I asked him a question- I was "pounding him". If I was tired or nauseated, then this meant I was rejecting him. If he called, and I didn't answer the phone ( because it was in my purse and I was driving- or some other reason that had nothing to do with him) then I was ignoring him on purpose. I could just go about my normal day and something I said or did could trigger him thinking I was doing something to him.

It was this kind of thought patterns that clued me into the possibility of BPD traits in this highly functional man who really has little else in common with my mother, and who only gets into this kind of thinking with his most intimate relationship- me.

Things have gotten better since I understand the perspective of being attacked but I don't react to it. I used to feel so bad that he thought these things about me, which would lead to to JADE'ing or increasing my caretaking behavior to try to prove to him that I really am not trying to hurt him. I realized though, that his thoughts are his thoughts, and I can't change the way he chooses to process. Our MT has been able to make some progress in that area.

When your H was caught red handed about the kitchen, he possibly felt some shame and then attributed that to your actions- when you confronted him then. Later, when he is calmer and less emotional, he may have been better able to hear you.

It's great that you can talk to your H about spirituality. There is a section in the ACOA book about religion, and we have discussed that in our 12 step groups as well. As kids, we form many ideas about religion from our homes, and if the homes are dysfunctional, then it would make sense that the way we interpret religion would reflect that. Just as there is a need to consider some of the childhood lessons we learned and adopt emotionally healthy ones, many of the members have also had to do this with religion. It would make sense that people with issues would act out in their religious institutions too- and also that your H would struggle with relationships within his religious group, since religion touches at our deeper feelings.

[Cat Familiar]

There are things I would confront my H over, and some things I wish I had some understanding of, but the more I try to understand some things, I believe there isn't a clear explanation beyond that the thoughts/feelings at the time were distorted in some way. Confrontation during a disregulation seems to just make that worse. The best successes I have had have been later, during MT where the T serves as a sort of referee. The T has been a slow process, but there has been better success at talking to my H over things there than at home. I tend to save the discussions for T.

I have concluded from listening to the reasons though, is that, at the times my H is upset, he really feels he is being attacked, rejected, or criticized in some way, even if that isn't the case, and that he is fighting back, defending himself. Since I had no idea what he was thinking, what this looked like to me was abusive behavior out of the blue. This went on for years. His feeling of being attacked many times had nothing to do with my intentions, and his explanations had a violent tone to them, something that surprised me as I am not violent and compared to him, a smaller person who could not hurt him physically if I tried. It didn't occur to me that he could think this.

If I asked him a question- I was "pounding him". If I was tired or nauseated, then this meant I was rejecting him. If he called, and I didn't answer the phone ( because it was in my purse and I was driving- or some other reason that had nothing to do with him) then I was ignoring him on purpose. I could just go about my normal day and something I said or did could trigger him thinking I was doing something to him.

We did marriage therapy and he reluctantly went because he felt like every time I would confront him and attack him. I can now understand how he felt because he was so sensitive to being "attacked, rejected, or criticized in some way, even if that isn't the case," just like your husband is.

It took me so long to figure out that he was mentally ill, because otherwise he is so functional (except with helping around the house).

Over time, I've become better at not JADEing, but that was certainly a product of my FOO pattern since I too was not seen and was invalidated in my family. For me, it made me a caretaker/codependent as opposed to a pwBPD like my husband. So it was the perfect storm: a marriage of a caretaker/codependent with a pwBPD.

Thankfully I'm stronger in myself now and I don't need to justify my feelings quite so much. I'm also learning to say less and just observe. (My new role models are some of my deceased Wyoming cowboy relatives. They spoke infrequently, but what they said mattered. And nothing got by them--they saw things for what they are.)

[Notwendy]

Over time, I've become better at not JADEing, but that was certainly a product of my FOO pattern since I too was not seen and was invalidated in my family. For me, it made me a caretaker/codependent as opposed to a pwBPD like my husband. So it was the perfect storm: a marriage of a caretaker/codependent with a pwBPD.


Thankfully I'm stronger in myself now and I don't need to justify my feelings quite so much. I'm also learning to say less and just observe. (My new role models are some of my deceased Wyoming cowboy relatives. They spoke infrequently, but what they said mattered. And nothing got by them--they saw things for what they are.)

Yes, it was the perfect storm for us too. I didn't even see it. My H was so mild, and his family looked so normal compared to mine that I didn't see it at all for years. It was easy to believe him when he blamed me for everything and denied having a part in our issues. That's exactly what my mother had been telling me- that I was the cause of the problems in their marriage and the family. So, just like I did with my parents, I made huge efforts to win my parents' and my H's "approval".

I believed that once I left for college, my family would be happy and normal without me. I believed that for years, until siblings told me otherwise.

The shift for me was when I decided I would live according to my values, to my own higher power, not their values or anyone else's. If my ethics are valid, then this would result in my being a good wife and daughter, but not from the perspective of trying to gain approval, which would likely be impossible. If I live according to my values, then what they say or think, isn't going to affect me.