"Getting it"

[NonnyMouse]

I've learned a lot about BPD from (many) books, videos, and this website. I've learned about the tools to use to defuse situations, and the best attitude for me to adopt. And how to prioritize my own health.

One of the main insights I've got from the books, the videos and some people on this forum, is that the correct thing to do is often the exact opposite of what you would logically think was best. And the best skill to learn is that rationality doesn't amount to a hill of beans with pwBPD! The sooner one "gets" this and starts to understand what your pwBPD hears when you say "X" --- they hear "Y"--- the sooner one can, if not necessarily reverse things, at least slow them down.

On this forum I see many people who haven't (yet) gained that insight. It upsets me to see long threads in which the sufferer is being given great advice but hasn't yet "got it," and is continuing in the same rut of rationality that is not helping at all. So throw away all your thoughts on how relationships should work, and observe how they do work. With luck this will "click," and if you are anything like me you'll feel quite proud of your new people skills!

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RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Couscous]

Well said. Rationality does not work because when one is in an emotionally flooded state, one's rational, thinking brain has gone completely offline. The way I have come to see it is that there is really only one difference between BPDs and nons: and that is that BPDs get triggered into this state much more easily and frequently than the average person.

This quote was the single most helpful thing I have ever read about this phenomenon:

Paradoxically, during flooding there is often an intense desire to fix problems but simultaneously, a catastrophic impairment of problem solving abilities. Logic is impaired. All agreement or understandings previously in place will not be operable. When flooding is recognized, all discussion, negotiation, analysis, etc... should cease because it just prolongs the state. Instead, soothing activity should begin at once. Rage is a flooded state. People, when not flooded tend not to recognize or own their actions performed a flooded state, and arguing about this tends to become a secondary red-herring that obscures basic conflicts that lead to the upset in the first place.

www.reichandlowentherapy.org/Content/Vegetative/Upset.html

[thankful person]

Nonny and Couscous, absolutely I agree. I think I’m finally getting it too (everyone on here is so patient,  and often I have to hear the same thing a few times in order to get it.) I can’t believe I put up a post saying, “I’ve read stop walking on egg shells but I don’t get how to do it..” Seems I’ve finally figured out how to do it :D I think my problem was that I’m very good at explaining things logically and I’m very patient… of course none of that helped! Ironically when I look back, my wife was telling me some of this stuff: “you never just let me feel what I’m feeling…” I get it. I often told her she shouldn’t feel that way. Now I know about validation, that has solved half our problems. And “you’re always starting arguments…” Well actually as the famous T shirt says, “I’m not starting an argument, I’m just explaining why I’m right…”  When I don’t want to argue I’ve found talking less helps the situation… I  can’t thank you all enough for helping me understand this stuff. You’re all amazing.

[alterK]

What Nonny says is very correct, but I'll add another thing that comes not from me, but from a psychologist I knew years ago: "People prefer familiar problems to unfamiliar solutions." I think this is very relevant to our BPD partners. And if we are honest with ourselves, it applies to us to.

I just posted something like this on another thread. Yes, Nonny's right that so many don't get the point about irrationality, but why don't they? People here aren't stupid. I won't try to answer that question for others, because I think the answer must be different for each person.

In my case a partial answer, at least, came to me when I was going through old papers and found some letters that had been exchanged between my mother (now dead 20 years) and me. I realized, S--T! She sounds exactly like someone with BPD! She herself had had a very difficult upbringing, and although she became an accomplished woman, what she had lived through had left its mark.

So, no wonder I chose a W with BPD! It was familiar to me. Now my task is to see if I can find a way through this. Not simple. Especially if I'm not yet at the point of wanting to end the relationship.

Hope this doesn't sound too personal or inappropriate. Each of us is in a different boat, but we are all struggling against the same current.

[NonnyMouse]

I have an almost perfect analogy.

A few years ago I had to be deposed as part of a civil lawsuit. My own lawyer gave me some tips about how to respond to the questions of the opposition lawyer. He told me to be honest but brief. He gave me an example. “Imagine I’m the opposition lawyer and I ask, ‘Do you know how tall I am?’ What would your answer be?”

My answer was, “I don’t know. Maybe six foot. Or a bit over.”

“Wrong. Unless you have access to my medical records, your answer should be, ‘No.’”

That was indeed the honest answer. But it also didn’t open up any other lines of questioning. And it didn’t leave me exposed if my answer were to be brought up later in court.

I think you can see the parallels with a pwBPD!

[bugwaterguy]

And the best skill to learn is that rationality doesn't amount to a hill of beans with pwBPD! The sooner one "gets" this and starts to understand what your pwBPD hears when you say "X" --- they hear "Y"--- the sooner one can, if not necessarily reverse things, at least slow them down.

I fall into this mindset often.  I am an educator - and I naturally use logic to explain things.  And I am pretty good at it.  With most people.

One of the things I teach is civic engagement, that you can change laws if you think they are wrong.  I have a strong internal locus of control.  I don't want to blame others for my problems, I want to make the change myself.   And that doesn't work.

What tools do you use to let things go?  Do you repeat any phrases in your head?  Or have some tool to help be mindful when you start to JADE?

[stolencrumbs]

Not necessarily disagreeing here, but having dealt with this for a long time, I'm inclined now to think that part of the problem is us non's conviction that we have some kind of monopoly on "rationality." It's not really about that. We think differently. My stbex's thoughts make perfect sense when you understand where they're coming from. As Waylon and Willie say, it "ain't wrong it's just different." And the idea that we are the "rational" ones seems to me to just contribute to the conflict.

[NonnyMouse]

Not necessarily disagreeing here, but having dealt with this for a long time, I'm inclined now to think that part of the problem is us non's conviction that we have some kind of monopoly on "rationality." It's not really about that. We think differently. My stbex's thoughts make perfect sense when you understand where they're coming from. As Waylon and Willie say, it "ain't wrong it's just different." And the idea that we are the "rational" ones seems to me to just contribute to the conflict.

No! That also sounds like "something that ought to work but doesn't in practice"! It sounds like the marriage-counseling approach, and that seems to have been pretty disastrous for many people here. Not to mention all the accusations of DV we've been accused of! You can't apply "it ain't wrong it's just different" to DV.

But you are absolutely right in saying

My stbex's thoughts make perfect sense when you understand where they're coming from.

Let's say that "rationality" is shorthand for "doing what works." And I think along the way you learn what's going on inside their head.

Take medicine as an example:

"Suffering from persistent headaches, muscle cramps or stomach ulcers? Once upon a time, your local physician may have prescribed an elixir containing human flesh, blood or bone. ...By consuming the remains of a deceased person, the patient also ingested part of their spirit, leading to increased vitality and wellbeing. The type of cure prescribed usually corresponded to the type of ailment—skull was used for migraines, and human fat for muscle aches" [Wikipedia]

They had a theory and it makes sense. Got a headache? Just eat the brains of a healthy person, albeit dead.

Now we have-evidence based medicine. And cannibalism has gone out of favour. (Except in Germany!)

[NonnyMouse]

I fall into this mindset often.  I am an educator - and I naturally use logic to explain things.  And I am pretty good at it.  With most people.

I'm an educator too. And when I get blank stares from a student I ask myself, "What did he hear me say? Are there other words I can use? What is his level of understanding that I can build on?"

What tools do you use to let things go?  Do you repeat any phrases in your head?  Or have some tool to help be mindful when you start to JADE?

Feedback. Positive reinforcement. Thinking ahead. I get a real kick out of being able to calm down a situation. And so I anticipate that. But I'm far from perfect!

[stolencrumbs]

Let's say that "rationality" is shorthand for "doing what works."

Yeah, let's go with that. That's more or less the point I was trying to get at. A lot of the stuff that people do that they label as 'rational' and 'logical' doesn't work. It does no good and makes little sense to keep calling that 'rational' behavior. They don't need to chunk rationality out of the window. They need to see that they aren't being rational.

Again, I'm not really disagreeing here with you. I'm just quibbling a bit with the framing. I don't think what you "get" is that rationality doesn't amount to a hill of beans with a pwBPD. What you ultimately learn is that "rationality" isn't what you thought it was, especially if it's measured by what works.