New Here... Non-Female...ex is BPD/NPD Male... divorced need advice & support

[wingsthatsoar78]

I am totally new to this forum, I have been a member of WTOdivorcing in the past but didn't know about this forum until today.
I am almost 2 years past Final Judgement in my divorce case.
I have 2 children in elementary school.
I am the PPR, but share legal custody.
I was married to the ex for 8 years, most of it was a living hell.
I know that even though I have yet to read as single post on this forum, the majority if not all of you reading will understand exactly what I mean.

I have endured intense emotional and verbal abuse, threats, stalking, theft and at times terrifying physical abuse.
I have also come out of the other side of 2 years of abuse via the courts/divorce process/custody battles.
At some point I would like to get into more detail about all of this, because it helps me to type it out and share/get it off my chest and I also know that it helps others.


I have to give my thanks before I launch into my current situation A) because I must never forget how much progress I have made, even on the worst days and B) I myself received so much support from reading other peoples stories, I want to be very clear for those of you looking for support or just lurking that it is ALWAYS worth finding a way to get out of these toxic relationships. Yes its hard on the other side too, but the fog eventually lifts and you can see the sun again.

I do not see him, do not accept his calls, mostly ignore his texts (had alternate phone line and also blocked him, but causes other problems, more on that at a later date)
We also never enter each others houses and barely get out of car when dropping off or collecting kids

My real issue at hand at the present moment is custody.
He has biweekly visitation and is using these unsupervised weekends with the kids to push his agenda.
Some of the things he has been telling the kids are truly unsuitable for a childs ears, 99% lies and all damaging ti me I hesitate to share too much in detail, because you never know... .but basically after chatting to 2 new attorneys ( was in another state 2 years ago)I am considering opting for full legal custody.
Does anyone have any experience in this?

Would love advise, tough love! whatever it takes

[Panda39]

Hi wingsthatsoar78,

Welcome to the BPD Family 

I'm short on time, but wanted to welcome you and ask if your kids are receiving any therapy?  That might be something to think about in terms of dad "pushing his agenda".  Do you feel he is trying to alienate the kids from you?  If you haven't already read Divorce Poison New and Updated Edition: How to Protect Your Family from Bad-mouthing and Brainwashing by Dr. Richard A. Warshak it might be something to check out when you have the chance.

We do have some members that have gotten full custody that might have some insight on that process, what have the attorneys you've spoken to advised? What is your goal in terms of your children seeing their dad?  No Contact?  Minimal visitation?  Supervised visitation?

Again Welcome,
Panda39

[ForeverDad]

From my years here it has become evident that most courts are very reluctant to grant full custody unless there is a clear and continuing history of obstructions, heightened conflict or 'actionable' issues with the other parent's parenting.  So don't be surprised if your first requests for full custody are met with reluctance from the court.  It prefers minimal corrective steps and full custody can be considered a big leap.

For example, I was non-primary parent in the temp order while she had temp custody and temp majority time.  Court and lawyers had no interest in improving the temp order despite the divorce taking nearly two years.  The final decree moved me up to equal time in Shared Parenting.  It didn't work of course, my ex was still too entitled and conflictual. (Is that a word?)  The custody evaluation report stated that if Shared Parenting failed then father should have custody.  I went through the Change of Circumstances process but the court ruled my CD report was over a year old and "stale" and thus it was ignored.  It took 1.5 years but I did walk out with full custody as Legal Guardian.  She was still entitled since GAL hoped she would behave better with the existing equal time and child support.  So within a year I went back for majority time.  Another 1.5 years culminating in a full two days of trial and I got majority time but just during the school year.  By then my son was 11 going on 12 and between that older age and the majority time her entitlement balloon was deflated.

So yes, do seek full custody.  But be prepared to offer Decision Making or Tie Breaker as alternates.  Though they are still joint custody, which court prefers, they give you a measure of stability and control over the major issues.  More here in a prior post, one of many I've made on the topic.

If you believe more than typical joint custody would be better, then ask, the worst that can happen is that the answer is 'No' or 'Not that much' or 'Not yet'.  For example, you can point to her latest court action as documentation her parenting approach is worse than obstructive to your parenting.  It may be unlikely that you can get full custody at the first request.  But it's okay to start a history of such requests and including the reasons why.  Then you could politely offer your "solution" (if full custody is not acceptable at this time) and request Decision Making or Tie Breaker status.  That way the judge can keep you two officially at joint custody, which they prefer, but assign you protections for your parenting.  First, if there is disagreement on major issues then you can proceed without having to go through mediation, a parenting coordinator or a court petition that could take months to resolve.  Second, it would be up to the other parent to legally contest your decisions.  Your ex would be the one with an uphill struggle, not you.

Understand too that full custody may not impact the parenting schedule or force supervised visitation.  In some ways custody and parenting time are handled as somewhat separate matters.  So be aware of how your state or local court handles (1) custody vs (2) parenting schedules for your sort of parenting issues.  If you get custody but no change in a parenting schedule then there may not be as much benefit as you hope from the changed order.

[wingsthatsoar78]

Hi Panda39

Thanks for the welcome,
I probably should have given more information about myself and my situation (does anyone on here feel like their ex is stalking them EVERYWHERE they go! )
I always hesitate to say too much to begin with (I was on the WTO forums for years) just in case he realizes its me. Awful way to live, shaking it off right now!

I absolutely need to order those books right now, I have not read them! THANK YOU for that

Your question is a very good one and I have been thinking about it all day co-incidentally.

What are my goals here? Basically to protect my kids.
I don't want them to go NC with their Dad, they need to have a relationship with him, at some level, but they also should not be subjected to hearing adult issues through the incredibly distorted lens of their Father.

Funny you ask about therapy. This has been the trigger for our most recent bout of drama from EV (emotional vampire) It makes me feel ill to call him "my" Ex. so EV for now.

I do myself attend therapy and I found a great child therapist for my kids but EV won't sign the release saying "i am manipulating them via a therapist" sigh.
So... in a nutshell, that is really what i need to be pursuing right now, a court order so I can enroll them in therapy.
 
I already have a fantastic division of parenting time post judgement, I have my kids every school night and every other weekend.
He gets every other weekend. I never thought it would wind up being that heavily weight toward me.
However, the details of my case are CRAZY... .and i had a pretty traditional judge.
We were forced into mediation by said judge and came up with a parenting plan that was more like 60/40 me/him... BUT when we went to final judgment my attorney proposed the modified schedule (OH yeah and a FAT pay off check) and to my total shock, my ex agreed. one of my VERY few true wins in the last decade.
He literally took a check and took less time. Of course it wasn't packaged that way to him, but basically that was the result.

So, yah, I had a rethink today and I am now in my "wise mind" and realizing myself & kids have it good and I do indeed know the courts do not favor sole legal.

In fact my previous (fantastic) attorney literally told me "not to bother" too much money/time and stress for very little chance of success or benefit if you do win.
I had 7 other things on separate motions at the time, so he felt it was not the thing to focus on. I still agree.

I considered requesting supervised visitation, I do worry about the backlash from him on this towards my kids. does anyone have experience of this?

I also get zero child support from my ex, but I am eligible to apply next year, so thats the other reason I want to find a new attorney in my state.
I really don't want his money, but his family paid for all of their many many grandkids to attend private school and college. My kids are older now I am trying to scoop together a good college fund. I just want him to be required to make monthly deposit or lump sum in their savings and go from there. I don't even know if thats realistic, but he's been promising me since before kids that this would be a non-issue. I have that in writing!

so really, for now, its 2 smaller things versus the big step of full legal.
EV is so manipulative I have already thought of 3 things he could blow way out of proportion to try and discredit me.

Thanks for writing!

[wingsthatsoar78]

Hi Forever Dad,

Thank you SO much for your reply.
sure lets go with conflictual being a word!

Wow congrats on the progress you have made over the years. I am so happy for you.

I was feeling as I replied to Panda, that maybe I should abandon this, but now you have me rethinking again.
I am definitely going to bring this up to whatever attorneys I interview.

EV (emotional vampire) has a grossly checkered past, we have documented history of assault, harassment and self harm, but it has never ceased to amaze me how little the courts looked at this. I do think it helped me with a a motion I had separate to our custody battle, but my overall experience is just WOW, courts care more about parental rights than a childs wellbeing.

Could you tell me a little more about why the court deemed your change of circumstance "stale"?

I do have majority time in school year like you for which I am so thankful, for me the issue is that I can't make a single move without EV saying okay, and he loves the control, so I am often times stuck.
we don't have strong religious beliefs or medical needs (thankfully) but that I can't have my kids be in therapy to help them process their emotions, many of which stem from being around EV... because of EV just makes my head spin around!

I got so afraid last night thinking if I reopen the case, what if the court decides to grant him MORE time.
this is where the self doubt kicks in.

thanks for the great guidance, appreciate it!

From my years here it has become evident that most courts are very reluctant to grant full custody unless there is a clear and continuing history of obstructions, heightened conflict or 'actionable' issues with the other parent's parenting.  So don't be surprised if your first requests for full custody are met with reluctance from the court.  It prefers minimal corrective steps and full custody can be considered a big leap.

For example, I was non-primary parent in the temp order while she had temp custody and temp majority time.  Court and lawyers had no interest in improving the temp order despite the divorce taking nearly two years.  The final decree moved me up to equal time in Shared Parenting.  It didn't work of course, my ex was still too entitled and conflictual. (Is that a word?)  The custody evaluation report stated that if Shared Parenting failed then father should have custody.  I went through the Change of Circumstances process but the court ruled my CD report was over a year old and "stale" and thus it was ignored.  It took 1.5 years but I did walk out with full custody as Legal Guardian.  She was still entitled since GAL hoped she would behave better with the existing equal time and child support.  So within a year I went back for majority time.  Another 1.5 years culminating in a full two days of trial and I got majority time but just during the school year.  By then my son was 11 going on 12 and between that older age and the majority time her entitlement balloon was deflated.

So yes, do seek full custody.  But be prepared to offer Decision Making or Tie Breaker as alternates.  Though they are still joint custody, which court prefers, they give you a measure of stability and control over the major issues.  More here in a prior post, one of many I've made on the topic.

Understand too that full custody may not impact the parenting schedule or force supervised visitation.  In some ways custody and parenting time are handled as somewhat separate matters.  So be aware of how your state or local court handles (1) custody vs (2) parenting schedules for your sort of parenting issues.  If you get custody but no change in a parenting schedule then there may not be as much benefit as you hope from the changed order.

[Panda39]

How old are your children?
What are their reactions to visits with their dad? 
How are you reacting to your kids when they come home and tell you things?
Is there possibly a counselor at school that they could be connected with for added support?
Did the court put any process in place for disagreement between you and your ex? 

Don't worry about your ex finding this site and recognizing you, it would be pretty difficult because our stories are so similar.  My significant other (SO) had a very similar parenting schedule with his undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) as you... .all school week and 1 weekend a month for example.  Because of the chaos, and hurtful things their mother did, my SO's daughters both voted with their feet in 2015 and moved in full-time with their dad.  His older daughter has been pretty much no contact with her mom for the last 2 years and his younger daughter still has phone contact and will see her mom occasionally.

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

My lawyer told me, "Courts love counseling!"  So I doubt the court would take his side and nix the idea.  However, you have to be careful he doesn't sabotage you by somehow manipulating things so the kids get inexperienced or clueless counselors.  Some have had good counselors withdraw services because of the ex's actions, no counselor wants to deal with licensing complaints or lawsuits.  (My pediatrician withdrew services permanently when my ex raged one evening at the staff.  Similar happened with a daycare I was using.)

Here is a recent post I made on how to raise the likelihood of getting a good custody evaluator.  Just substitute 'counselors' in place of 'evaluators'.   That way even if he does manage to scare away one or two counselors there will still be more on your recommended list already vetted though the court process.

... .I'm not trying to be discouraging but actually what complications to avoid.  First, you need to select evaluators that the court really trusts and your lawyer trusts to do solid evaluations.  You cannot let your ex pick a biased or gullible person or it could risk making things even worse!  One approach is to make a short list of really, really good custody evaluators with solid reputations for solid work, then present that to court and suggest your ex choose from that most excellent list.  Probably her lawyer can't object since there are multiple choices.  Court will like having both parents involved in the selection but the key is that you've hand picked the best of the lot as the only ones for consideration!  Since a CE or two may drop out during the process - did we say high conflict? - your short list should have at least 3 and maybe 4 names if there are that many available in your area.

Too, don't forget about the school counselors, they may be of some help even if they don't dig too deep into the entire family dynamic.

[wingsthatsoar78]

Hi Panda,

my kids are 12 and almost 8.
the older one is not a fan of visiting dad, at all.
she used to feel quite differently about him, but she's very perceptive and has seen his bad mouthing of me for exactly what it is.
its a struggle to have her uphold their scheduled time. she literally talks about "I don't have to do this when I am 14"

the younger one is still daddy's girl and puts dad on a pedestal.
She sees dad as this fun character... .he's very much the "disneyland dad" all presents & no discipline.
but since older daughter started puberty, he's been splitting with her and pushing her away.
She has signs of being emotionally numb that are worrying to me, hence my huge push for therapy.
she doesn't show any emotions easily, although they are all there running beneath the surface.
she overachieves in all areas of school and activities, so again, my eyes are on her for emotional/physical issues, eating disorders etc. I hate to be negative, but I am also a realist who's lived through enough at this point to know the contributing factors and early signs.
for now, thank God, we are healthy & communicating well... I hope I can manage to have it maintain.

only the older one tells me about things dad has said, my reactions are always along the lines of... for example "how did that make you feel?... .I think I would feel hurt and angry if someone said that about my mom... .but don't worry, it doesn't hurt me that you told me... .lets keep our communication open... you know me/I know you... we know what is important & I always love you"
i try to avoid saying things like "what? thats not true" or "that never happened"
I don't bring a confrontational vibe to the conversation.
I try to keep the overall feeling one of mild confusion... ."huh, weird, I don't know why dad said that"
because I firstly do not want my kids to ever feel stuck between us and secondly, I don't want to give any power to his nasty comments. I just flick them away like an irritating bug (whilst inside/to friends/on this forum) I am seething... .but doesn't benefit the kids to see this... .at least thats my thought process... .what do you guys think?

You're right, the stories are all so similar its scary.

[wingsthatsoar78]

Great advice ForeverDad.

The thing thats funny about their Dad, is he will shout and scream and stamp his feet about being made a part of all the decisions, but when it comes down to it, he's incredibly lazy.

He has tantrums about not knowing about the kids schedules at school, soccer, dance etc. but when I connect him with teachers & coaches he never materializes.
He made a huge fuss about knowing what elementary school our kids would be enrolled in, but never showed up to orientation or back to school night etc.

Basically he likes the attention being "excluded" allows him to pull the left-out Dad card, but actually lifting a finger would be too hard.

I think if we got to the CE stage, I could layer in the people I think are good... and i am a researcher by nature, so I would be sure to go into it eyes wide open.
A lot of the gains i made in our various court cases were due to the research I did and my finally understanding he is in fact very weak, not scary and strong the way he makes out/ Plus my ballsy attorney who was never scared of him, unlike me.

They are expert manipulators though, so I know its key to minimize the fodder or time available for him to work his "magic" in that department.

I have a consult with an attorney locally that i think is going to be good for my case in 2 weeks from now.

I realized about a week ago that EV (emotional vampire) had truly set me up in a situation that occurred with my younger child about 2 months ago... .but then my mother pointed out it had happened right in between 2 huge f-ups on his part that he was obviously trying to minimize by creating a false drama that shone a bad light on me.

basically my younger daughter called him crying saying "I don't want to be with Mommy"
I don't usually let my kids call him when theyre upset, I say calm down first, bc he jumps on their distress and is literally like a salivating wolf, searching for material he can use against me.
The younger one wanted something that was at his house and had asked me to buy it, I said no, she lost her marbles crying (she's only 7, so it happens)
but ":)AD" turned it into this huge drama where he drove 70 miles to come get her, even though I literally told him, you cannot, this is not your parenting time.
i had to go to work, so he sprung on that and came and got younger daughter whilst older one stayed home with the babysitter totally non-plussed and understanding 500% what was happening.
i told EV "you are being manipulated by a child who wants her own way, she wants a toy at your house and is crying because I will not replace it right at this moment, i need your support in reinforcing that tantrums don't get you what you want"
EV laughed and said "sure thats your side, but DD is in dire straits and clearly needs a stable parent"
i said "I will not talk to you anymore" and hung up
he showed up and even tho my parents and sitter advised me to allow him to take DD for the evening with the perimeters she should be returned by bedtime.
I look back on that interaction as such a low point for me because
A) I allowed DD contact with her Dad when she was hyper sensitive and going through a "I hate mommy, for the next 10 mins" moment. I should have waited 30 mins.
B) I allowed EV to call me on the phone - I have literally talked to him on the phone 2 times in 4 years. I keep him at ultimate arms distance, we only communicate via email.
C) I didn't enforce my parenting time and tell EV to go take a walk with his rumination about DD being distraught.

so yah, not my finest moment of the "post fog" last few years.
i let him take over, I let him get the better of me... .but hey, at least my eyes are open now.
i got really stressed about this whole thing becoming a key point for him in court, which it may still.
but when I look at the history of the last 12 months with him, this is ALL he has to say about me... .and it was all mostly on the phone.
whereas I have binders full of his crazy, even as much as 2 weeks ago he's still relapsing into over communication and pouring all his energy into proving he is "right" in his crazy, glasses falling off, perspective.

He actually wrote something along the lines of "I tell my daughters all the truths about you and your lying and your job because I feel deeply as their father and guide in life that I would be amiss to set them on the right path instead of that of a Whore, lier and thief"

Hes SO smart he emailed that to me!
slander and the admittance and defense of so.

cray-cray-cray.

Just seeing that ahead of time took all of its power away from it in my opinion.

[ForeverDad]

I realized about a week ago that EV (emotional vampire) had truly set me up in a situation that occurred with my younger child about 2 months ago... .but then my mother pointed out it had happened right in between 2 huge f-ups on his part that he was obviously trying to minimize by creating a false drama that shone a bad light on me.

I call this behavior ... .the ex trying to make me look worse than the ex looks, usually predictable after the ex has made a big blunder.

For example, we had the results in from the Custody Evaluator, she was looking bad compared to me.  Well, the school couldn't reach my ex (temp order during the divorce gave her temp custody) and so called me next saying our son needed kindergarten vaccinations.  So I made an appointment with the pediatrician's nurse.  I informed her a few days before the appointment.  She raged of course.  Unbeknownst to me, she also ranted and raged at the pediatrician's staff.  The doc wrote in son's records, We need to fire mother.  So she got a letter stating they were "withdrawing services".  Of course she never told me.  But clearly she felt she had to make me look worse than her.  But after my next weekend with him she carted him off to the hospital with the usual "my son told me... ." claiming I had beat him on the shins in a rage.  This was the first time she somehow got him to parrot her.  Um, even the hospital staff noted that his shin bruises were typical for an active boy his age.  CPS did get involved but it was eventually closed as unsubstantiated.  Son didn't realize what he'd been pressured into, what a lie was, so I got him a Clifford The Big Red Dog book, "T-Bone Tells the Truth".  He laughed a lot as we read it but he got the point, letting someone believe a falsehood was wrong.

[Radcliff]

Hello wingsthatsoar78,

A few thoughts for you... .

Document the negative interactions your kids are having with their father.  It sounds like you've got the hang of saving e-mails.  How is it that you know your husband is saying bad things?  For example, if your children volunteer the information to you, take it in calmly but after they are out of sight, write down their quote immediately and save it in a journal with dates.

Consider hiring a forensic psychologist of your own, right now, to help advise you.  If you hire them, prior to any urgent court issue, you can meet with them, give them the details, and simply say, "This is what is happening, I want to create the best environment possible for my children, what can you tell me about options I have and what might be best for them?"  Then use that expert input about what's best for your kids to guide your approach.

You might ask your lawyer if there is a way to get your documentation of the parental alienation into the court record even if you decide not to take drastic action yet.  It could serve as a "shot across the bow" to warn him and potentially shape his behavior (I'm an optimist  but at the least would document things officially so you're not scrambling to prove them later.  Presenting documentation and asking the court to take note but not asking for drastic action makes you seem like the reasonable party.  Don't take my word for any of this, though -- you and your lawyer will know what's best in your situation.  You might alternatively elect to "leave well enough alone."

I am currently separated from my wife with her out on a domestic violence restraining order, hopefully temporarily while she pursues a batterer program and DBT.  Anyway, the point is that she has supervised visitation.  We've been using non-professional supervisors (friends who sign a form and read a pamphlet) but due to scheduling concerns were just talking about the idea of professional supervisors.  They are hellaciously expensive around here, so that is one thing to consider.  You'd want your ex to pay for it.  Also, if your ex is highly manipulative, a professional supervisor could actually be a liability if your husband can turn them against you.  And supervised visits can sometimes be awkward and not fun for kids or adults.  Sorry to give you more things to worry about!

I don't envy you the decisions you have to make.  It sounds like there are some real harms going on with what your ex is telling the kids.  But you've also said you want them to have a relationship with their father.  If you get sole custody, they may not remember his misbehavior, and may have some feelings about not having him in their lives.  On the other hand, they are getting older, and their reasoning ability will keep improving.  If they keep seeing him every other weekend and you can arm them to be critical thinkers, they will know him for who he is, good and bad.  If he starts spouting baloney about you, they will eventually figure out it's baloney.  If he is feeding them baloney about themselves, then you've got the other 12/14 days to give them good and accurate information about themselves.  I'm not sure, but I think it was in Lundy Bancroft's, "When Daddy Hits Mommy," that I read that developing critical thinking skills in kids is a good way to arm them against influence by an abusive partner or ex-partner.  I liked ForeverDad's story about the Clifford book.  You've got them most of the time, so that works in your favor with respect to time to train them in critical thinking as well as the time you spend setting a good example for them.  There is a possibility that arming them to be critical thinkers, modeling respectful behavior towards your ex, doubling down on teaching them values, setting a good example, nurturing their psyches and having fun with them will give more immunization to his shenanigans than court action or supervision (though I don't mean to discourage those routes if your judgement indicates they are necessary).

Congratulations on your progress so far.  Though you've not shared many details, I can imagine how hard the road has been.  You've come so far in making a good life for your children.  You are their hero!

WW