How do you "enforce" boundaries?

[HealingSpirit]

Well, I'm feeling quite frustrated at the moment, and pretty discouraged from a conversation that went south last night.  And the event is such a stupid, small thing compared to what many of you parents here are dealing with, I am almost embarrassed to post it.  But, it IS a boundary issue, and it has to do with my DD's lack of respect for me or my things, so I'm posting it anyway.  I just never know what will trigger a rage attack in her.  This time, it was because I called her out on her behavior.  She had violated my clearly set boundary, once again.

To explain why I'm so frustrated, I need to give you a bit of background.  My DD has a long history of using my things without asking.  Ever since she was little, I noticed things like my scissors, pens, pencils, or tape would suddenly go missing from my office.  Or my personal implements like hairbrush, comb, hairspray, nail file & clippers, polish remover, and all sorts of various miscellaneous items would just disappear from my bathroom at random.  Mine and DH's missing things almost always turned up in DD's room, so we set a rule long ago: DD may NOT use our things without asking... .ever.  She has ADHD and had a lot of trouble remembering this simple rule at first.  Things have been better over the years, but not perfect.

Two nights ago, I was getting ready for bed and I could not find my toothpaste. I spent about 10 minutes looking for it, and concluded it had disappeared from my bathroom.  I asked DH if he knew where it was and he said he saw it in the guest bath downstairs.  Huh?   I asked DD if she knew how it got there and she said her friend who had spent the night needed toothpaste and they couldn't find DD's in her toxic-waste-dump-of-a-bathroom, so she came upstairs and got mine.  She apologized and blamed her friend for not giving it back to her to return to my bathroom. She was on the phone then, so I decided not to say anything about it, as I've learned timing is everything when talking to my DD.

So, last night, I confronted her about it very gently.  DH was there too.  I told her I really hate it when I can't find things I need,  I said, "You KNOW we have a rule in place that you are not allowed to come upstairs and take our things without asking."  I asked her what SHE thinks would be a good consequence to help her remember to respect my wishes.  She said, "I already told you I was sorry.  I feel really bad about that. What more do you want?" Apparently, in her mind, feeling bad about it should be consequence enough.

I told her I wanted her to respect my boundaries and follow the rule we set that she may NOT come upstairs and use our things without asking... .period.  I reminded her that the REASON she is not allowed upstairs or to use my things is BECAUSE she does so without asking and doesn't return them.  I asked her what she thought might work to guarantee that she keep her word.  That's when the raging began.

DH tried to de-escalate the rage by telling her if she ever needed to borrow a bathroom item, she may use his things as long as she puts it back.  His solution made perfect sense to him, but I thought it completely undermined the issue.  DD broke a rule by coming upstairs and taking my toothpaste without asking... .and not returning it.  I want my wishes to be respected enough to be asked, but I don't get support from DH about this.  And in that moment last night, DH forgot how HE rages when he can't find his things.

DD raged for almost an hour.  I am proud of myself that I didn't raise my voice at all.  I stayed calm and communicated my boundaries, but I did NOT validate my DD.  I did NOT tell her I understood her reason for taking my toothpaste. (I don't.) When I started getting frustrated,  I quietly excused myself and let DH deal with her.  I went in the jacuzzi, got ready for bed, and picked up the novel I started. 

But today, I feel deflated and hurt.  I still don't have any guarantee that DD will ever stop using my things without asking.  It really is a hot button for me when I can't find something I need in the moment.  I plan to order the book, "Boundaries" that others here have recommended. Other than that, I don't know what to do.  I hate it that such STUPID STUFF is such a problem and I'm having a hard time with this today. -sigh-







 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Rapt Reader]

Well, HealingSpirit, I'm proud of you too for not raising your voice, and for removing yourself from the argument. I hope you had a good time in the Jacuzzi... .I'm really happy that you have a little oasis of solitude that you can take advantage of 

It's got to be really frustrating when she uses your stuff and then "loses" it or just doesn't return it. I'm an oldest child, and I also get a bit territorial over my treasures and belongings, and if I had a daughter I bet I would've had to deal with that situation, too. Luckily for me, my sons really never had much of a hankering for any of my stuff, so everything pretty much stayed/stays where it all belongs.

I can see why her taking your things without your permission and not returning them would get on your nerves. Putting a boundary around that issue seems reasonable to me... .I do know that sometimes our boundaries make sense to us, but not to our children, though. I can also see that her thinking that her friend being over and having a need could make her believe the situation would supersede the "rules" possibly; it might be a stretch though, and hard to validate for you. Have you figured out why this is such a hot button for you?

To be honest, there have been things in the past that really pushed my buttons with my son, too. I could get worked up over his messy room, his not wanting to have dinner with us, his not wanting to go to a family event with us, his not taking his meds every single day, his staying up too late at night, etc. These things would actually torment me inside until I'd just have to confront him about them and then endure his raging about my wanting to control him all the time. The more I fumed about stuff like that, the angrier he would get, and the more he would do the things that I didn't like.

For me, it was a matter of Radical Acceptance; being easy-going about things that drove me crazy but weren't going to hurt anyone, and using S.E.T. when I mentioned them if I had to. Validating what I could without being judgmental. Actually, I have to say that stopping the judgment of him and his actions was the biggest change I made. Once I stopped that, it was easier to use Validation and S.E.T. with him, and little by little the annoying behaviors either stopped or became less often and less large.

By stopping the judgment of him, I stopped judgmental language and used the language we are learning here. I stopped telling him that I hated it when he did this or that; stopped sighing and rolling my eyes when conveying my distaste for his actions and behaviors. I stopped challenging him about the things I didn't like, and used non-confrontational language to discuss these things with him.

I remember the very first time I used the things I learned after reading on this site for a few days. I was very tentative and clumsy, but I was fuming inside over the state of his room (My goodness! You're an adult! You shouldn't be this messy!) and knew that the normal conversation we would have over this issue would only cause a scene. I calmed down, remembered the Radical Acceptance that I couldn't talk to him like I could my other, non-BPD son. I remembered our previous argument about this issue about a week prior (before I found this site) where he pitched a fit that I was always "controlling" him. And took a deep breath before going upstairs to "chat" with him.

I said "Hi", and casually said that I knew that cleaning his room was something he hated to do. I told him that when I had a task that seemed so monumental to begin with, it often made me put it off, too. Then I casually said that I found that sometimes when I organized my surroundings, I would do it in steps, a bit today and a bit tomorrow, and it actually made me feel better about my life in the end.

And strangely enough, he listened to me without any of his buttons being pushed, and he thought about it and agreed with me! And then started working on his terrible mess later that day. It was so remarkable to me that I never looked back and used this technique as best I could from then on. Is his room always clean? No. Do I have to from time to time remind him that starting the process now, before it gets worse will make life easier for him? Yes. But I do not obsess over it, harp on it, or show judgment about it. And the work gets done eventually.

And that's where the Radical Acceptance comes in... .It's never as clean as I would want it. It never gets done as quickly or the process started as soon as I would like. But I can live with it, understanding that clutter is a feature and not a bug with his personality. And since I'm not judging him any more or using judgmental language and facial expressions, he never feels "controlled" by me anymore.

He is taking his meds almost daily (misses just here and there), getting enough sleep, more willing to accommodate family members from time to time, and has dinner with us almost nightly. For some reason, when he stopped feeling controlled and judged, everything fell into place; I let go of some of the things that bugged me (like the perfect room, dinner every night with us, attending all of our family functions) and he stopped rebelling since there was nothing left to rebel against. Not sure how much of this is relevant to your situation, but this was what worked for me 

[HealingSpirit]

Thank you Rapt Reader!

I think I came face to face with Radical Acceptance, yet again, last night while I was in the Jacuzzi because there doesn't seem to be anything I can do to gain respect and compliance with my boundaries.  The disappearance of my toothpaste is what triggered my anger and disappointment, but the real problem is much deeper.  It has more to do with my need to know where my things are when I need them. 

Both my DH and my DD have ADHD.  I do not.  My DH is a licensed collector of curios and relics. I knew he was a clutter collector when I met him.  He is also very visual.  If things he needs are not out in plain sight, he doesn't know where they are.  So, he leaves his stuff out.  He sees the fish inside the aquarium; I see the net, the bucket, the box of fish food, the water jug, the box of chemicals, and the hoses & rags on the floor in front of it. 

I gave up on my daughter's room a long time ago.  The closest thing I've ever seen that resembles how her room looks was a foreclosed drug house.  I got a sneak preview of it before the bank hired a crew to come in and clean it up.  I should mention, I'm very lucky and grateful my DD does NOT do drugs!  Her room just looks like she does.  I can barely stand to go in there.  But it's her room, so I leave it to her.

I am an artist and I really enjoy and appreciate beautifully decorated rooms with art and artifacts tastefully arranged.  It really gives me joy, and it is a form of self-expression for me... .but instead, I get to live with constant clutter, or clean it up myself.  Neither my DH nor my DD understand this.  I also have a high need for organization and order.  I'm thankfully not OCD, but I do strongly prefer to have a place for everything and everything in its place.  I don't get to live my preference most of the time.  And sometimes, not being able to find something I use and put back every day, like toothpaste, a pen, or a pair of scissors just sends me over the edge and I lose patience.

I realized last night that knowing where my things are really is a boundary issue for me, but I have no clue as to how to enforce it when DH and DD "forget" to put things back.  Therefore, I'm sure you're right that Radical Acceptance is the best practice here. 

I told my DD a while ago, when she was talking about moving out, that if she "borrows" things from other people without asking and "forgets" to put them back, and the missing items are found in her room, then she could be accused of stealing.  I have no idea if that made any impression on her. 

I also had a thought that her sudden rage may have been part of an extinction burst.  The last time she used my bathroom without asking, she left a huge mess of red hair dye all over the shower and on my brand new towels.  That was a year ago, so I guess in the grand scheme of things, we have made a lot of progress. 

[chooselove]

I remember borrowing my moms and siblings things at times without asking when I was a kid (clothes, hair clips, make up).   I'm sure I annoyed them and I always felt embarrassed when called out on it.  I think I would be mortified if a huge "boundaries" argument had been made about it.  I'm guessing the rage was in part triggered because the humiliation was more than she could tolerate, however guilty she is.   If my daughter borrowed my car without asking then that would be one thing, but when she borrows my smaller items and doesn't return them, I'm satisfied with a "sorry" and the item returned.  With my DD we have gotten into a big fight because I went into her room to retrieve the item she'd taken and she considered that her boundary.  My position was, "Too bad, you take it from me, I can go in and get it back."

[HealingSpirit]

Hi chooselove,

I think you're right.  DD must have been embarrassed, which is why she had such a strong reaction.  She told me she felt bad, but that is never enough to stop her from doing it again.  I used to share a bathroom with my sister, and I remember my "stuff" being used all the time without asking.  I guess this issue isn't as much about my toothpaste (tape, pens, scissors, etc.) disappearing as it is that I feel so powerless that I can't stop it from happening. 

For the big stuff, we've taken precautions.  We have the laptop tied to the furniture with a locked tether (like they use in the stores) so she can't "forget" and take it out of the house.  We have a safe where we keep all the car keys, so she can't "forget" and take the car without asking.  We keep all our booze locked up too.  We generally lock up anything we don't want her to use without asking.  She just can't be bothered to remember to ask.  It will be a rude awakening for her if she ever has roommates someday.

My DD acts the same way about her room that yours does.   I only go in my DD's room to put things in there that she left in common areas of the house, OR to give her pet rat scraps of vegetable or fruit I've been chopping.  And I always ask first, but if she's on the phone, she yells at me anyway. 

My position was, "Too bad, you take it from me, I can go in and get it back." 

  I like your answer!

[theplotthickens]

My dd steals things both big and small from family members.  However, my dd is different that yours in that she doesn't feel bad or guilty when caught.  She feels nothing.

She did this since she was a very small girl, and nothing we did seemed to train her out of it.  At 17, I have sadly given up this boundary.  If I want something and don't want it stolen, I keep it in my locked room.  

One idea I have used is: If you steal it/break it, you buy it.  We are not wealthy, and the amount of items my dd destroys or steals is astronomical.  I am down to 2 forks, 2 plates, and 3 glasses.  She has thrown or smashed most of the plates and glasses, and this happens over and over again.  She steals personal items, even underwear, and it feels very violating to live in a house where your personal property is not respected.  I would be so thrilled if my dd ever took responsibility or felt bad!  She does not have the sense of guilt others seem to describe.  

To make the situation liveable... .can you keep your bathroom/bedroom locked?  How would it feel to you to have her buy the things she takes without asking... .no conflict/no lecture?

I don't think it's helpful to psycho analyze yourself on this, or overthink it.  If you feel upset and uncomfortable with something, it is reason enough to do something about it.  Your feelings are no less important than your child's and taking care of yourself in this area will make daily life more sustainable.   I am glad you are voicing it instead of stuffing it in!

I have found less talk/more action a good parenting stategy.  No lectures/no shaming... .just something matter-of-fact like finding a locked room.  Or being told, "You take it/you buy it.  It's yours!"  This requires having some of your child's money to begin with; I wouldn't recommend fighting over getting the money.

I totally get your frustration with never having the things around the house that you want and need... .replacing the things and finding them gone AGAIN!  This is not esteemable behavior; and ignoring it doesn't do your child any favors.  What kind of a room mate or friend will she be if she does this outside of the house?

[theplotthickens]

I apologize if my post is redundant - I was writing my reply and your response posted before I saw it!

[qcarolr]

This has not been a big issue with my BPDdD28. It is a HUGE issue with my ADHD gd9. [we have custody of gd since a baby] A boundary is simply ignored. There is no remorse. If the consequence hits her hard enough she will comply for a couple days, maybe. So often I feel plain worn down and want to give up. Then someone reminds me that someday the consequences will be much more severe. Now is the time to figure this out with her. Here are some examples.

All of dh's pliers/wire cutter/ etc. are rusty -- left outside after use to play unending creative games in the yard. There is also an array of other goodies from dh's collections of nuts, bolts, screws, various metal parts scattered about. She has 'taught' her younger friends (age 5) to harvest stuff from dh's garage shelves too. They are supposed to stay out of the garage after they get the toys. We lock the garage -- she comes in the dog door and I find the stuff outside later. Getting her to pick up her stuff is a major issue. Inside or out.

She refuses to check in when she leaves our property - mostly to play in the open space behind our house. She has started taking the dogs with her, off leash of course, which many do but it is against the rules. We gave her boundaries - where I could see her from the backyard. She complied, until her curiosity carried her away down the farmers irrigation ditch. When it is full she throws sticks for the dog to get. Even after getting caught in the current and nearly drowning, she will not stay away from the ditch. When it is empty she finds toads, snails, etc and fills all the empty tubs (from my kitchen). We got a dog running at large warning - so have locked the back gate again. Her response now "Well I can just climb over the fence. (6 foot chain link). and this is what she and her young friends are doing. At least they are not able to take the dogs.

There is a trail of fun wherever she goes in the house. She refuses to not do projects on top of my desk/computer/papers, etc.

I could go on. This has been a really big frustration for me this summer as I have been feeling overwhelmed by life in general. I feel like gd will never grow beyond the need for supervision of a 4 year old. I was hoping she would outgrow the need to be locked in like when she was wandering off all the time when she was a preschooler. The family/child T we work with did not offer much for us to work with. Her take is the summer has less routine and it will be better when school starts.  I feel it is deeper than that. Is it ADHD? The current meds. needing adjusted or changed? Just how life will be?

I have been working on mindfulness and radical acceptance around a lot of things in my life. I am against a brick wall on this one right now. Dh and I have an appt. with the T next week, without gd. Gd has an appt with her pdoc on meds on Thurs.  Hoping for some new ideas.

qcr

[qcarolr]

OK, so some of what I wrote is not accurate -- I did get some understanding from the T, gd does feel shame if not remorse esp. when she truly does forget to care for her things when moving on to a new task or distraction. The other important part is the gd believes that I am trying to be in total control of her. There is some truth to this from my behavior. As I feel more overwhelmed and exhausted I do get 'mean' from gd's 9 year old perspective as I try to force greater and quicker compliance with the house rules. The rules have been there, dh and I have not been consistent with the consequences for stepping over them. Her defiance is a survival response to gain some sense of control over her own life.

Geez, I know all this already. And I see gd being so hard on herself when she messes up - she hits herself leaving small bruises on her legs. When I stop her SI, she gets physical with me - hits, kicks, scratches. The T suggested this is mostly around the control imbalance between us.

For me, it was a matter of Radical Acceptance; being easy-going about things that drove me crazy but weren't going to hurt anyone, and using S.E.T. when I mentioned them if I had to. Validating what I could without being judgmental. Actually, I have to say that stopping the judgment of him and his actions was the biggest change I made. Once I stopped that, it was easier to use Validation and S.E.T. with him, and little by little the annoying behaviors either stopped or became less often and less large.

By stopping the judgment of him, I stopped judgmental language and used the language we are learning here. I stopped telling him that I hated it when he did this or that; stopped sighing and rolling my eyes when conveying my distaste for his actions and behaviors. I stopped challenging him about the things I didn't like, and used non-confrontational language to discuss these things with him.

Think I will go back and work through the link to Radical Acceptance for Families Rapt Reader has here.

qcr

[chooselove]

There have been times when we locked things in the house (DD is not living with us now. She moved out and went NC).   I felt horrible doing that to her and she thought us to be horrible, too, for taking those precautions.  I think she doesn't want to think of herself in any way connected to the problems we have.  WE are the problem in her mind and if we'd just relax, let her do whatever she does or doesn't want to do, clean up after her, not nag her, give her full access to most things, pay her way,  listen thoroughly (and endlessly) and agree with her assessments of others... .then all would be well as in her mind we would be behaving as normal parents!  But once we initiate boundaries, or make requests, or try to have a contract, or have a different opinion then we are terrible selfish unfair people.   And I do feel terrible at the times when I would hide things or monitor what I would share with her so as to protect ourselves. I felt downright rotten, because she is someone I love so much and wanted so much to be an open book with her.  With her gone I go between deep reflection on what I could have done better to avoid our broken relationship (I made a ton of mistakes) to occasional anger at how she treated and talked to us.

[lever.]

It drives me nuts when DD takes my things, breaks my things etc.

Last time she was here she took earings and a necklace that I really liked (a gift) from my jewel box without asking-then she lost them-grrr!

I have just started reading the book on boundaries-I will report back if I find anything useful in it.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[HealingSpirit]

Thank you plotthickens, qcarolr, chooselove, and lever for adding more input!  Sorry it's taken me so long to respond.

To make the situation liveable... .can you keep your bathroom/bedroom locked?  How would it feel to you to have her buy the things she takes without asking... .no conflict/no lecture?

What a great idea!     Duh!  I feel so silly for not thinking of this myself.  (Sometimes I think I have my head in the sand.)  The "no going upstairs" rule was working fairly well until the toothpaste disappeared, but it never occurred to me to put a lock with a key to our bedroom door.  I will certainly do that the very next time something of mine leaves my room without asking.  As for making HER buy the stuff she takes, I love the idea.  I've even tried it, but it doesn't work.  I started making her buy all her own cosmetics, hygiene, and hair products when she was around 12.  I increased her allowance at that time to cover a reasonable amount of the stuff, but told her she needed to budget and take care of her things because I refused to buy any more expensive acne products, makeup or nail polish remover when she leaves lids off of everything and it spills or dries up.  She has gone without makeup and hair products because she had no money to buy more and I won't let her use ours.  I think the stupid toothpaste incident was one of those 2 steps forward, 1 step back kinds of things.  We are making progress.  It just got to me more than usual because it hasn't happened in a while. At least not that I know about.   

I don't think it's helpful to psycho analyze yourself on this, or overthink it.  If you feel upset and uncomfortable with something, it is reason enough to do something about it.  Your feelings are no less important than your child's and taking care of yourself in this area will make daily life more sustainable.   I am glad you are voicing it instead of stuffing it in!

Thank you so much for this!  It really helps to hear someone else say it's okay for ME to have my feelings!  I feel so outnumbered in my home much of the time because my DH has ADD & Aspergers and my DD has ADHD & BPD.  It's hard to stay centered and ALWAYS respond, rather than react, ALL THE TIME.  I am human too, and when I exhibit less-than-perfect skills (which is frequently),  things can go South really fast in my family.

I have found less talk/more action a good parenting stategy.  No lectures/no shaming... .just something matter-of-fact like finding a locked room.  Or being told, "You take it/you buy it.  It's yours!"  This requires having some of your child's money to begin with; I wouldn't recommend fighting over getting the money.

I love your no-nonsense parenting strategy!  I will work on less talk, more action (or natural consequences).  May I PM you for help with this as it comes up?  Sometimes I get stumped for ideas.  You seem to be very good at this.  I really appreciate your input!  You have the kind of "out of the box" thinking that I find very helpful.   

This has not been a big issue with my BPDdD28. It is a HUGE issue with my ADHD gd9.

This has been a really big frustration for me this summer as I have been feeling overwhelmed by life in general. I feel like gd will never grow beyond the need for supervision of a 4 year old. I was hoping she would outgrow the need to be locked in like when she was wandering off all the time when she was a preschooler. The family/child T we work with did not offer much for us to work with. Her take is the summer has less routine and it will be better when school starts.  I feel it is deeper than that. Is it ADHD? The current meds. needing adjusted or changed? Just how life will be?

I have been working on mindfulness and radical acceptance around a lot of things in my life. I am against a brick wall on this one right now. Dh and I have an appt. with the T next week, without gd. Gd has an appt with her pdoc on meds on Thurs.  Hoping for some new ideas.

Oh qcarolr,

Your GD's behavior sounds EXACTLY like my DD's from the time she was a toddler.  I'm pretty sure it is due to the ADHD, but the "trail of fun" does seem to surpass even typical ADHD behavior.  I had no other reference for my DD's excessive behavior except for when my DD's friends came over and I could see the difference in the way they played.  I have a picture of 2 of them after painting a refrigerator box in the back yard.  Her friend had some paint on her hands and a smudge on her cheek.  My DD, on the other hand, had stripped herself naked and painted her entire body from head to toe.    Some kids are regular strength, and some are maximum strength varieties.

I never did figure out how to get a handle on the trail of mess, so I understand your exhaustion.  Even your description of your GD taking the dogs off your fenced property sounds soo familiar!  Regular limits just don't work with these kids because they don't see the fence as a limit, it is just an obstacle in their way.  I was in awe of other moms who could spread a plastic tablecloth out for their kids to finger paint, and then hang up the artwork, wash their hands and clear off the table when the kids were done.  NOT with my DD.  I couldn't keep her in the chair long enough.  The cats, dog, and sliding glass door were MUCH more fun to paint than a dumb old piece of paper.  I can look back and laugh now, but I honestly don't know HOW I lived through it.  I'm pretty sure that's why I was only blessed with one child. 

A book that really helped validate what I was going through at the time is called "Raising your Spirited Child." by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka.  She also wrote one called "Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles."  I recommend either one or both to you to help you with your GD.  Kurcinka discusses the various inborn temperament traits and how to work with each one.  She changed my paradigm as a parent from being strict and punitive to being more of a leader and a coach.  Her mantra is "Progress, not perfection."

At the time, I didn't know I was dealing with a pre-BPD child, so I am hoping for the best for your GD!  You can vent to me anytime about your GD's behavior.  I didn't know ANYBODY else who had such a busy kid when my DD was younger.  I felt like I was constantly following her around, cleaning up after her whirlwind mess-making.  And she seldom napped, which made it even harder.  I feel for you!  How many days until school starts again?

There have been times when we locked things in the house (DD is not living with us now. She moved out and went NC).   I felt horrible doing that to her and she thought us to be horrible, too, for taking those precautions.  I think she doesn't want to think of herself in any way connected to the problems we have. 

My DD has expressed this exact thought too. Nothing is ever her fault.  She doesn't think of herself as a thief, or as irresponsible for not returning something she borrowed.  And she really pushes my button when she brings up how we ALL need to make changes.  She twisted something our T told us to do during a family session and she uses it against me.  He told us to try to relate to our DD on a person-to-person level, rather than parent-to-child.  So now, God forbid I should say anything that sounds even remotely parental and she shuts me out.  She says, "I'm not listening to you.  You're not talking to me on a person-to-person level."  It doesn't matter whether I have presented my point "correctly" or not.  She now uses this as a tool to cut off my boundary-setting conversations.

I am so sorry you're in NC with your DD right now.    I can only imagine the fear and pain and regret you feel about that.  I hope you can have faith knowing that she will come back to you eventually.  So many others here have reported that is what happens, so if my DD ever goes NC, I hope I can keep the faith based on what I've seen here on this site.

Lever, thank you.  I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who goes nuts when this happens.  Ugh!  I am also reading Boundaries.  I'll compare notes with you on your other post about it after I finish reading it. 


Rapt Reader, this particular part of your post caught my eye today.

For me, it was a matter of Radical Acceptance; being easy-going about things that drove me crazy but weren't going to hurt anyone, and using S.E.T. when I mentioned them if I had to. Validating what I could without being judgmental. Actually, I have to say that stopping the judgment of him and his actions was the biggest change I made. Once I stopped that, it was easier to use Validation and S.E.T. with him, and little by little the annoying behaviors either stopped or became less often and less large.

By stopping the judgment of him, I stopped judgmental language and used the language we are learning here. I stopped telling him that I hated it when he did this or that; stopped sighing and rolling my eyes when conveying my distaste for his actions and behaviors. I stopped challenging him about the things I didn't like, and used non-confrontational language to discuss these things with him.

I think my DD does hear or feel judgment from me, even though that's usually not where I'm coming from or how I present my feelings.  One of my biggest struggles with DD is in the warped way she hears things I say.  I was actually glad to learn that this is part of the disorder because the way she twists what I say confuses me to no end.  DH and I were trying to discuss the adult skills we thought were important for her to master before she moves out.  I had made a list to help keep me focused and matter-of-fact about it.  I said that we wanted to see her hold down a job for a few months, make a budget and balance her bank account, and to be able to pay for her own car insurance, clothing, and some of her medical care before she takes the step of moving out.  She said, "So, you're telling me to break up with my boyfriend!  You're never going to let us be together!"

I think I am more critical, than judgmental.  But I know that communication is what was received, not delivered.  I see what is wrong or missing first, and on my bad days I'm not very good at noticing things like the dishwasher is clean when the counter and sink are covered with dirty dishes.  I've been working on trying to catch her doing things right, to reinforce the good behavior, but it isn't easy sometimes.  DD wants to be praised and acknowledged for emptying the top tray of the dishwasher, rather than be reminded or asked to empty the bottom.

I really appreciate all of your input into this discussion!  You have all helped me feel much better about this.

Thank you!  Hugs to you all.   

[SeaSprite]

.  WE are the problem in her mind and if we'd just relax, let her do whatever she does or doesn't want to do, clean up after her, not nag her, give her full access to most things, pay her way,  listen thoroughly (and endlessly) and agree with her assessments of others... .then all would be well as in her mind we would be behaving as normal parents!  But once we initiate boundaries, or make requests, or try to have a contract, or have a different opinion then we are terrible selfish unfair people.   

This sounds like every interaction with my d16. She is only content when we say yes, everything you do is right and correct.

[pessim-optimist]

Others have given you some really good ideas on what you can do and also on the shame/guilt part and Radical Acceptance.

Do you mind if I pick your conversation apart a bit and show you a different angle?

I told her I really hate it when I can't find things I need,  I said, "You KNOW we have a rule in place that you are not allowed to come upstairs and take our things without asking."  I asked her what SHE thinks would be a good consequence to help her remember to respect my wishes.  She said, "I already told you I was sorry.  I feel really bad about that. What more do you want?" Apparently, in her mind, feeling bad about it should be consequence enough.

I told her I wanted her to respect my boundaries and follow the rule we set that she may NOT come upstairs and use our things without asking... .period.  I reminded her that the REASON she is not allowed upstairs or to use my things is BECAUSE she does so without asking and doesn't return them.  I asked her what she thought might work to guarantee that she keep her word.  That's when the raging began.

Other than the shame and guilt, and your talking about it, your dd has no reason to obey the rule that she doesn't like and maybe doesn't even agree with. And it doesn't look like she has the skills (self-control, empathy, attention span, respect for others' space/things etc.) to follow through on her own.

If I caricature this conversation a bit, it sounds like this: 'I hate it when someone robs my bank. I made a rule (w/out consequences), that people should not rob my bank. Can you help me to come up with something that will make it impossible for you to rob my bank again?'

Boundaries are about protecting you, separating you from other-than-you. It is your responsibility to secure your boundaries.

If you don't have an enforceable consequence in place at the time of setting a boundary, you are not really setting a boundary - you are just asking someone to behave the way you would like them to. And it's up to them to decide whether they will or won't - that's a powerless situation to be in.

The idea of locking your room - if it's important enough for you -  or accepting that she will keep doing this, puts the power right back into your hands. It's your decision about your life.

So now, God forbid I should say anything that sounds even remotely parental and she shuts me out.  She says, "I'm not listening to you.  You're not talking to me on a person-to-person level."  It doesn't matter whether I have presented my point "correctly" or not.  She now uses this as a tool to cut off my boundary-setting conversations.

Yikes! Does the T have suggestions on what to do about this?

I don't know what's the best thing to say in that kind of situation. My instinct is that giving in would set you up for trouble in the long run.

I might say something like: "Ok, I can't force you to listen. That's your choice. You may miss out on important information. The rule still applies."

Maybe others might have "been there and done that" successfully, and will have experiences to share on this... .

[peace in steel town]

Boundaries can be difficult, because they are about you, not the other person. You can't contain other people, all you can do is limit your exposure to them. And that sounds hard, living under the same roof, expecting others to not touch your stuff. What do you do, lock everything you own in a room, and only you have the key? I would advise you not to try to explain your point of view. An explanation invites push back, and push back is an argument. Do you really believe that if you could only explain yourself well enough, the other person is going to agree with you and thank you for being such a wonderful parent for explaining it so well? They want what they want, period. So you should say no, and no means no. Good luck enforcing it.   

[qcarolr]

Doing a home lockdown just plain does not feel good when I need to do this. I feel like the warden carrying my ring of keys around saying NO. I am into this with my gd9 right now. (she lives with us) I have also started taking her stuff left out and locking it up for a day or so and asking her how she plans to 'purchase' it back from me. I am starting to see some changes in her behaviors.

She has ADHD and I know she is easily distracted. For the most part her taking stuff and incorporating it into her creative play is not an intentional violation. She has a plan for it (and it is very creative), fears we will say no without even listening to her plan, so she does it anyway. If I can not feel angry (this takes mindfulness practice daily); stop; get at her level; give my full attention and ask question; we can often negotiate a settlement or exchange or I can simply say YES.

So if your D had expressed the need for toothpaste for her friend; felt that you would sincerely listen to her need; not fear anger from you and restatement of rules - would you have given her some toothpaste? Maybe even put some in a small cup instead of the whole tube? Appears your D feels justified in her choice to help her friend.

My T (and previous T's) have suggested the 3 basket rules. A= safety issue non-negotiable with strict consequences. B=effects others and are negotiable including negotiating the consequences (give 2-3 options) C= stay out of it - ie. friendship issues unless your advice is asked for and then use some validating questioning.

It is hard to initiate this change - validation and SET communication skills are needed - be ready for the extinction burst and how you can get support away from the situation (like coming here with your needs or having a supportive local network/friends/family).

A new perspective to consider. This is a good opportunity to find a time to use this as an example with your D of how you both can change how you relate -- relationship repair.

qcr

[HealingSpirit]

Thank you EVERYONE!   

I feel more empowered now.  I don't know why it never occurred to me to just install a keyed lock on our bedroom door.  DUH! 

If I caricature this conversation a bit, it sounds like this: 'I hate it when someone robs my bank. I made a rule (w/out consequences), that people should not rob my bank. Can you help me to come up with something that will make it impossible for you to rob my bank again?'

   You're right!  Thank you soo much.  I think I am getting this now, after struggling with it for so many years.

If she had asked me, of course I would have said yes!  And then, if she didn't return it, I would have known she still had it.  I do think the ADHD is a big factor.  But now I see where my failure to set up natural consequences (locked door) that would require her to ask have contributed to the "forgetting to ask" being an ongoing problem.

So now, God forbid I should say anything that sounds even remotely parental and she shuts me out.  She says, "I'm not listening to you.  You're not talking to me on a person-to-person level."  It doesn't matter whether I have presented my point "correctly" or not.  She now uses this as a tool to cut off my boundary-setting conversations.

Yikes! Does the T have suggestions on what to do about this?

-sigh-  Not really.  He didn't foresee this happening. He did talk to DD to re-establish my authority as a parent, but she doesn't respond well to that. He usually just validates me that she is "the master of the double bind" and that in 30 years of practice, he has never seen ANYONE who presents with so much drama.  He has told me that he sees how she sets me up so there is no way to win and he assures me that he is working with her on this.  He is the best psychologist we've ever seen, but after coming here, I have come to realize even he doesn't have all the answers.  Her DBT work with him is going painfully slowly and there are NO programs anywhere within driving distance from where we live.

He set her up with a DBT workbook as her only therapy outside of their 45-minute session every 2 weeks?  No wonder she still rages! 

I'm so grateful to all of you for your help, I can't even express it!   

[SeaSprite]

"the master of the double bind"

Oh healing spirit, you have my sympathy for that one. Not so much my D16, but my Dh's ex. We call it heads I win, tails you lose. (With my D, its more like she wants to be told everything she does is right and correct, she can't take feedback, and she's a kid, she doesn't know everything yet)

Last year she was angry at my DH, in the SAME email, for their son being on the outs with mom (dad's fault, he should make son apologize) and the daughter being on the outs with dad ( his fault, he's a deadbeat dad). She plays this all the time and seems to have no idea she does it. I think she actually believes she is justified, that she is being a good and protective mom.

Before the divorce, if a marriage counselor would even gently suggest that she had a role in their issues, she would fire the counselor.

She finally left for her BF's husband. I actually wouldn't believe the degree of her issues if I hadn't seen the emails.

Sorry, I derailed... .what I mean to say is that this game is hard for everyone, and feels so frustrating and pointless. If you are not feeling frustrated, frazzled, and a little crazy, I would be amazed.

And I'm glad you are feeling more empowered, it's a pain to have to lock things up but like you say, it solves that problem neatly.

[theplotthickens]

Forget a keyed lock - they will find your keys and it is one more thing to worry about.  A coded lock is Da Bomb, Baby!   Best peace of mind I ever got for under $80!  No keys needed. (My hubs actually threw away the keys, LOL, so we wouldn't have to constantly check that they were there.)  We have one similiar to this: www.amazon.com/Electronic-Keyless-Door-Lock-Set/dp/B003YNB86K

We keep sharps, knives, meds, etc in there as well.  A physical boundary was needed when personal and safety boundaries were constantly being crossed.  It has eliminated a big source of conflict, and brought more peace to our home.  That is HUGE for us.  

I will also say that setting practical boundaries for ourselves is a sign that we accept the reality of our children's illness and the need to have tools in place.  I do not see radical acceptance as meaning that we do not keep our personal boundaries in place; acceptance to me is seeing the reality of the behaviors rather than looking the other way or acting out of guilt.  I accept that my daughter has sticky fingers and that she does not respect others' property.  It has not helped to wish it away!  :D    That does not mean that I agree with it, or that I will not put boundaries or consequences in place.  I hope that makes sense.  The dialectical part is that we accept our children, and at the same time, believe that they can do better.  That's my take, anyhoo!

[HealingSpirit]

"the master of the double bind"

Oh healing spirit, you have my sympathy for that one. Not so much my D16, but my Dh's ex. We call it heads I win, tails you lose. (With my D, its more like she wants to be told everything she does is right and correct, she can't take feedback, and she's a kid, she doesn't know everything yet)

Yep, that's it!  I'm sorry you and your DH have to deal with his BPD ex.  Yuck! 

Your DD sounds so much like my DD, it's scary!  I'm grateful mine isn't into drugs, alcohol, sneaking out of the house, promiscuity, and so many other terrible behaviors other parents are dealing with.  But hearing you describe what you go through with yours is VERY MUCH how my DD is at home. 

A coded lock is Da Bomb, Baby!   Best peace of mind I ever got for under $80!  No keys needed. (My hubs actually threw away the keys, LOL, so we wouldn't have to constantly check that they were there.)  We have one similiar to this: www.amazon.com/Electronic-Keyless-Door-Lock-Set/dp/B003YNB86K

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS!  YOU'RE BRILLIANT!

I do not see radical acceptance as meaning that we do not keep our personal boundaries in place; acceptance to me is seeing the reality of the behaviors rather than looking the other way or acting out of guilt.  I accept that my daughter has sticky fingers and that she does not respect others' property.  It has not helped to wish it away!  :D    That does not mean that I agree with it, or that I will not put boundaries or consequences in place.  I hope that makes sense.  The dialectical part is that we accept our children, and at the same time, believe that they can do better.  That's my take, anyhoo!

I think your take on Radical Acceptance is right on the money.  For some reason, whenever I realize something in my life is never going to change, I get overwhelmed with such grief and sadness, I can't see any solutions in the moment.  But, when the grief subsides, THEN I'm able to see where I can make changes to live with the things I cannot change.

It's funny how missing toothpaste triggered all this in me.  It brought up a lifetime of issues in one simple event.  WHEW!  Glad that's over.  I'm going to need my full awareness for my DD's upcoming move or breakup, or both.