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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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« on: June 10, 2015, 02:11:41 PM »

I've been reading this forum for some time, and I think it has helped me tremendously so far. But I think I need to write this in order to help me "break the loop" - the loop of first trying to get rid of her memory, and then having something remind me of her, and finding myself right back in the loop again.

First, some background: a few years ago, there was this woman. I had known her for some time, but we had never really talked, and to be quite honest, my initial impressions of her were "she's shallow, flaky, and attention seeking". But then there was this party, where neither of us really knew anyone else but the hosts, who were rather busy with all the other guests, so we ended up talking to each other. As the party came to a close, we were still talking. And I feel that if we had been single, we might have well ended up in the same bed that night. So, as you can imagine, sparks flew that night, but as we were both in a relationship already, I pushed that to the back of my mind. Then a year later, another party: she cornered me in the kitchen, just the two of us, and confessed that she had developed a crush on me that night - and I confessed that I had done the same. She told me that she admired my manner of speaking, my sense of humor, my style, my intellect, that she found me sexually attractive. I guess this was the start of the idolization phase. This went on a couple of years - now both of us were married, and we still saw each other occasionally, through common friends or just by chance (we live in the same city), and each time we met, there was that spark again.

Then, at yet another party, she told me that she was very much infatuated with me and had deeper feelings for me than anyone else in a long time (presumably including her husband). At this point, I told her that we can't go on like this and that we have to talk, and she agreed. Throughout the following months, I kept trying to arrange a meeting with her in order to discuss what had happened between us and where we were going, but she kept cancelling one appointment after another, until she ceased to reply to my texts at all - the last message I got from her was before Christmas, wishing me merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. After that, nothing. It was almost as if she had dropped off the face of the Earth.

Now, based on the above, many of you would probably thinking we were heading for an affair, that all that was a primer for cheating and that we were doing something very wrong. However, I believe in ethical non-monogamy, or however you wish to define it. In my mind, it is entirely possible to love and have a meaningful intimate relationship more than one person at a time, but in my opinion, that also requires openness and honesty almost to a fault, both to yourself and to all the other people involved. And that was what I was after - I never hid our meetings from my wife, and when things started getting really serious, I told my wife everything (and also told this other woman that I had done so) - and I would've wanted to discuss the state of things with my friend and her husband, in order to establish the boundaries and define the rules under which our relationship would've been able to continue without jealousy pulling us apart.

But I never got the chance to do it. Without any explanation, without any indication of what was coming, she dropped all contact with me. She didn't reply to my texts or emails, didn't answer my calls; maybe she has blocked me - to this date, I don't know. When I realized what had happened (or not happened, as it were), I started thinking about the things that had happened previously during our "friendship": excuses about her phone being on the fritz (rather often, I should think) when she hadn't replied to my texts earlier, citing various medical reasons as to why she had to cancel our meeting or why she hadn't kept one or the other of her promises. In short, I don't think she has actually managed to keep any of her promises to me - but I didn't think much of that at the time, because we were "just friends", and after all, she'd been therapy for depression, and couldn't be expected to respond whenever I felt like she should, right? But after a year of this game of not replying to my texts for ages and then replying when I least expected it, I sent her a final text, saying that since I gather she wants to have nothing to do with me, although I can't fathom why, I will not try to contact her ever again. I received no response, which surprised me not at all. After that, I have had no contact with her at all.

So, unlike many on this forum, we were never a couple, and at least I had no intent for us to become one. Yet we were more than just friends - the sexual attraction was there, the sense of having found a soulmate (on my part at the very least) - I thought that if we just were honest and open, we could, in a sense, have our cake and eat it too. Not that I ever had any particular desire to make the relationship sexual - just the tension was enough. But then it all went belly up. I was idolized, I felt that I had found someone who was just like me, I felt that it could all work out just fine in the end... .and then everything came crashing down. Or, I think it would've been better if it had just done so, instead of meekly petering out as it did. It's the worst thing I've ever felt - first feeling we had this deep connection, having found the friend I had been always unconsciously seeking... .and then having it all end in a series of question marks. I don't think she's splitting me black, except maybe to her husband or to those of her friends I don't know - but I know she's avoiding me, since I no longer see her at the places I used to, and the one time after I've seen her since the "breakup" - from afar - she acted as if she had not seen me at all, although I'm certain she did.

How can I stop thinking about her? Can I ever get closure, to talk it over once and for all? Did she ever mean anything she said, or was it just manipulation or a funny game for her? Does she think about me as often as I do of her? She seemed so much like me, but was that just the mirroring? How can someone discard another so callously? Am I perhaps over-reacting, reading too much into her actions?

It's been a long way down from the pedestal. But still, I'd like to thank her for forcing me to think about things I would've never though about otherwise - the nature of relationships, questions of infidelity and of honesty and openness, and about how I see those things - and I'd like to tell her I have forgiven her, and that I hope she can forgive me, and that I wish that she could break free from her demons.
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2015, 02:17:47 PM »

hey confounded 

"my initial impressions of her were "she's... .flaky,". id say that was a good initial impression.

i dont think a person has to be in an "official" relationship with a person with a pd to feel its effects. youre not alone in this, ive seen a few posters here, some in non romantic friendships, others in romantic friendships. i get it, i think. it sucks. you had a profound connection (that you wanted to explore more deeply, and had reason to think you would) with a person that cut you off and dropped off the face of the earth. thats traumatic. i think its reasonable to be hurt even if you hadnt had much connection at all. its a cold thing to do. "Or, I think it would've been better if it had just done so, instead of meekly petering out as it did." sure. total lack of closure and i assume an increasingly anxious process.

"However, I believe in ethical non-monogamy, or however you wish to define it. In my mind, it is entirely possible to love and have a meaningful intimate relationship more than one person at a time, but in my opinion, that also requires openness and honesty almost to a fault, both to yourself and to all the other people involved. And that was what I was after - I never hid our meetings from my wife, and when things started getting really serious, I told my wife everything (and also told this other woman that I had done so) - and I would've wanted to discuss the state of things with my friend and her husband, in order to establish the boundaries and define the rules under which our relationship would've been able to continue without jealousy pulling us apart."

i dont judge you. check out the staying board and youll see members that include this in their relationships, and i think many would agree that thats generally how to go about it. there are risks of course, risks that arent unique to that situation specifically, but dating in general, and it sounds like you know what they include. the only reason i even bring it up is because:

"having found the friend I had been always unconsciously seeking... . and then having it all end in a series of question marks."

thats self awareness and its valuable. to me, that (in italics) IS the question mark, and you are actually the one person with the power to answer it. i encourage you to poke at it and follow it. youre now conscious of it so begin by asking yourself why you were seeking it. what need in you was unfulfilled? what were you looking for? i think the answers will be the closure youre seeking.

":)id she ever mean anything she said, or was it just manipulation or a funny game for her?"

for a pwBPD its definitely not a game. im of the opinion they meant what they said and did as much if not more than we did.

"Am I perhaps over-reacting, reading too much into her actions?" well sure its possible. how much have you read up on BPD so far? howd you arrive here? its hard to tell. some of these things could simply be flaky behaviors though they have plenty in common with the stories here.  i trust your gut feeling, but need to know more in order to try to answer some of your questions.

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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2015, 04:00:13 PM »

Thanks for the reply, once removed.

The reason why I thought I had a found a friend that I had always been looking for... .I have schizoid tendencies - I tick off about 8 out of 9 of the criteria to a minor degree, so it's very difficult for me to relate to most people, although you wouldn't really notice it unless you knew me well; so, while I'm fully able to function in society, people often tend to come off as rather alien to me. However, she seemed to get me, seemed to be interested in all the same weird things as I was, and discussing various esoteric subjects with her was so natural. If I said "I like this" she said "I like that too" or at least "It's not my thing, but I can see why you like that" - I believe this is what mirroring is about.

I always felt there was something off even by my unusual standards, but couldn't put my finger on it. There was her seductive behavior towards me (intense enough for me to notice - I'm not the most observant reader of body language... .), her intense admiration of my various qualities, her history of "burning bridges" - for example, a friend she introduced to me as "a good friend and a mentor" she later cut out of her life because she "just couldn't take him anymore". She wore her heart on a sleeve, she was just so intense.

I knew she had problems, and as she was as at this stage still my friend, so I felt I need to educate myself to understand her. So I went to Google and first hit histrionic, but that didn't really cover it and also failed to explain several other things. I was still trying to figure out what was going on with her, when I realized I had been now cut off, just like that, like that one friend I mentioned above. That gave me a few keywords more to add, and that got me to this forum. I took a look and many of the stories rang a bell - the description of the waif type seemed to fit like a glove. She never raged, at least not to me, but could withdraw; her words said one thing but actions another; she often acted on an impulse; her emotions seemed more intense than with any other woman I've ever known - in some ways, ther emotional state was her reality; she had difficulty keeping promises (it was as if she had no memory of ever having made that promise) ... .all sorts of little things that add up, and while I won't try to diagnose her, borderline seems to be the closest fit I can come up with.

Now it looks like our friendship is over, and I've been left with so many unanswered questions. At first, I felt hatred for having been discarded without any explanation, but this forum and the people's stories here have abated that anger - I realize that she probably cannot help herself, that her self-sabotage of her relationships hurts her too. Yet I keep wondering, "was it something I said or did?" - but having read the stories here, I think what happened, would've happened regardless, sooner or later; and we had the added stress of our relationship's unusual nature to cope with to boot. Sometimes I still feel guilt for thinking that maybe she made it all up, maybe it was just all lies: that doubt, doubting the words of a friend I once loved and trusted enough to open myself up to her... .it's an awdul feeling.

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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2015, 12:34:22 AM »

i feel for you confounded  

i dont meet all the criteria for schizoid, but i think i can at least begin to relate, as something of a misanthrope, and a strong introvert. finding someone we feel understands us can be incredibly powerful. being cut off makes us feel like that was rejected. of course, if this person is BPD, its more about them than us; rejection is inevitable.

" If I said "I like this" she said "I like that too" or at least "It's not my thing, but I can see why you like that" - I believe this is what mirroring is about."

mirroring in and of itself is not a bad thing; if i validate you or your feelings, i am mirroring you. where its about us however, is how powerfully we are effected by that mirroring; how much we buy into it. but it also partly explains the soul mate quality of these relationships.

"The reason why I thought I had a found a friend that I had always been looking for... ."

i think you should continue digging here. you need not have schizoid traits to feel alone, or feel unfulfilled, though its certainly a reasonable explanation. but what im more specifically asking, is what is it you feel you were unconsciously lacking, and seeing? id also ask at this point, how is your relationship with your wife? it sounds like your marriage is not meeting these needs, which is okay, no human being, or group of human beings can fulfill all our needs, many of them we must fulfill ourselves. but i think itd be useful to explore this. what needs of yours arent being met, or havent been met? remember youre not alone in wanting to be understood, or wanting to understand. thats a theme for many of us here, a powerful draw, and hook. many of us realize that its causing us to, on some level, neglect ourselves; deny ourselves understanding, acceptance, validation, praise, whatever it is. id also ask if youre seeing, have seen, or intend to see a therapist.

"all sorts of little things that add up, and while I won't try to diagnose her, borderline seems to be the closest fit I can come up with."

thats a good attitude. 99% or more of us here are not professionals and cant diagnose. youre here for support for you, and in the process, some answers to your questions. by the way, as far as diagnoses go, BPD is often comorbid with other personality disorders, and not just pwBPD, but all of us may have traits of any given personality disorder on any given day. so if youre feeling some doubt between BPD, histrionic, or whatever diagnosis, that could be why. before i learned about BPD, i was even wondering if the seasonal change had something to do with it. adding things up that seemed downright insane. i think we all do this.

"Now it looks like our friendship is over, and I've been left with so many unanswered questions. At first, I felt hatred for having been discarded without any explanation, but this forum and the people's stories here have abated that anger - I realize that she probably cannot help herself, that her self-sabotage of her relationships hurts her too. Yet I keep wondering, "was it something I said or did?" - but having read the stories here, I think what happened, would've happened regardless, sooner or later; and we had the added stress of our relationship's unusual nature to cope with to boot. Sometimes I still feel guilt for thinking that maybe she made it all up, maybe it was just all lies: that doubt, doubting the words of a friend I once loved and trusted enough to open myself up to her... .it's an awdul feeling."

again, you show a lot of self awareness here; also emotional maturity, compassion and empathy. i think its a great attitude. youre also feeling and experiencing some of the "symptoms" many of us go through, so you have some expectation of them and some feeling theyre normal. thats great.

im not asking you to do this yet, youve come here seeking answers and im more than happy to try to give them to you: but as i said, the way to freedom is to, as you are ready, turn the focus to yourself. the more you are able to do so, the more your pain will lessen. thats what i meant by finding the answers to some of these questions will, ultimately, probably be your closure, and your healing. hope that makes sense.

"that doubt, doubting the words of a friend I once loved and trusted enough to open myself up to her... .it's an awdul feeling."

it is   . im glad youve found this site. its one of the largest internet forums in the world (according to wikipedia) and its the greatest support group ive ever come across in my life.

edit: what was your last conversation/meeting like?



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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2015, 10:04:43 AM »

My wife and I are each others' best friends - it's a relationship based on camaraderie and friendship. I'm lucky to have her, because I can discuss this situation with her openly - but it only takes me so far. However, she's very sympathetic and sometimes, when I get angry or sad again because of my friend, my wife reminds me that she probably did the only thing she knew how in order to cope, and that I had been honest (if somewhat naive) with my intentions and that I have nothing to chastise myself about. That takes the edge off, and occasionally we even joke about it.

But what is it that I miss about this other woman, and what my wife cannot give me? My wife politely knocks on the door of my inner being and waits for permission to enter; this other woman blew the hinges off. And that's what I miss, the intensity that was able to penetrate my dampening fields and hit me right where it felt. Before that happened, I had no idea I had been missing it, but when it did, I came to realize I want more. Of course, my logical self knows that it can't last, and that no lasting friendship can be built on foundations like that. I guess a junkie would feel something like that about the next hit - so, as a schizoid, my emotional self feels the need for that high that can reach me through the emotional insensitivity that comes with my own nature. But I also shudder when I think about the nuclear fallout of what might have occured had we ever become romantically involved - if a "mere" friend can cause this anxiety and pain, what a lover would've done?

I did see a therapist some time ago, although not because of this - I was getting burned out at work - but I didn't find it very constructive; when I mentioned polyamory, I saw he couldn't wrap his mind around the concept, and could not offer any advice on my relationships because he was unable to understand a fundamental part of how I see them. Good therapists don't grow on trees, so I haven't really considered one since then.

In retrospect, maybe there were already some signs of what was coming during the last time me and my friend met. It was by chance and we only had time to grab a cup of coffee - our conversation was rather lame, the spark was missing this time, and I think her face was not lively as it had been when we had met earlier. This was at a time when I had already made it clear that we need to talk, and that I was not seeking life as a couple, but as something different - so, there were unresolved issues between us, and that encounter was rather unsatisfying. We kept texting though, once or twice a week for a few months after that. Her last message to me was her reply to my text wishing her a merry christmas and a happy new year, and wishing maybe we could see next year. Her reply to that was to wish me the same, and that she waited for the new year and it's symbolic meaning as a new start, that she had had a rough autumn but that things were looking up. I then sent another text saying that I was sorry to hear she'd had a rough time, but that I hoped the knowledge of that I was thinking of her would give her strength. I kept texting her afterwards, just wishing her a nice weekend, asking if she was up to meet for a chat, etc. every now and then; I even tried to call her when I started getting anxious about not having heard a peep out her for several weeks, but she didn't answer nor did she ever call back (we didn't usually call unless it was something really urgent, so a call would've been significant). And so it all ended.

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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2015, 12:39:07 AM »

like i said, i dont judge polyamorous relationships, in fact there are elements that i admire about those that pull it off. it sounds like it requires a tremendous amount of emotional centering, and it sounds like your wife displays that. im glad you have her too.

"But what is it that I miss about this other woman, and what my wife cannot give me? My wife politely knocks on the door of my inner being and waits for permission to enter; this other woman blew the hinges off. And that's what I miss, the intensity that was able to penetrate my dampening fields and hit me right where it felt. Before that happened, I had no idea I had been missing it, but when it did, I came to realize I want more."

great self awareness. i guess my next question would be, do you think theres a way in which you can satisfy this need for yourself? i know for me personally, there was some truth to the idea that "normal is boring". more accurately, im very picky, but im more willing to dismiss a "normal" person for reasons of incompatibility than i am a person im uncomfortable with to begin with, and ultimately not compatible with. it sounds like there could be some similarity there of some sort. your visual gives me a visual of boundaries. you might agree its not necessarily ideal for someone to blow the hinges off of our inner being. but with that in mind, intensity is something thats easy to miss. i think most of us can relate. i hated being in constant contact with my ex for the duration of our relationship, but once it was over i didnt know what to do without it. and sure, in that sense, its very much like an addiction.

"But I also shudder when I think about the nuclear fallout of what might have occured had we ever become romantically involved - if a "mere" friend can cause this anxiety and pain, what a lover would've done?"

precisely. i think its fair to say it would have continued to play out in a similar, likely even more painful way, not to minimize your pain. the dynamic is still the same. meet a person that feels like a soul mate, get coldly cut off. push and pull. in your case you experienced mostly pull, and a lot less push, so in that sense the push is kinda even more shocking. what im aiming at is that your pain shouldnt be minimized nor should you feel any hint that theres something wrong with your feelings, but that youre also wise to realize you dodged at least part of the bullet.

"I did see a therapist some time ago, although not because of this - I was getting burned out at work - but I didn't find it very constructive; when I mentioned polyamory, I saw he couldn't wrap his mind around the concept, and could not offer any advice on my relationships because he was unable to understand a fundamental part of how I see them. Good therapists don't grow on trees, so I haven't really considered one since then."

id point you to this ongoing thread if you havent read it already:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=278325.0

good therapists definitely dont grow on trees, but they do exist, and it can be a process finding a good one.

"In retrospect, maybe there were already some signs of what was coming during the last time me and my friend met."

remember, this disorder existed before she met you, when she met you, and will continue after she met you, so youre correct. it doesnt sound to me like something you did per se. theres a possibility the fear of engulfment was triggered by the prospect of a talk, and had been somewhat kept at bay with the infrequency of seeing each other. even meeting itself could have triggered that, impossible for me to say, but it sounds like any time she saw you her feelings were pretty intense. it also sounds, and im being deliberately vague here, like there were other things going on with this person that troubled her, for example possibly revolving around her marriage. the disorder, in general, is what it is, and not so much personal or about us, though we certainly play some role.

my advice is not to contact her again. you have said your piece. i dont say this to get your hopes up, but it is possible that she will contact you again somewhere down the line. its possible she wont, but you may want to be prepared in the event that she does.


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« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2015, 11:21:33 AM »

What I felt at the time was like she was telling me to come closer, yet any time I did that, she pulled back. But I never expected her to get out of sight entirely. Ever since my final text about my intention of not contacting her again, three months ago, I've been thinking about contacting her on a weekly basis - whenever I see or hear about something I know we both are into, whenever it's raining... .but the longer I resist, the easier it gets. The way I see it, it was not I who did the disappearing act, so it's not up to me to try and make amends.

If she were to make contact, I would certainly not refuse her. But I don't know it it were possible to resume our friendship - it's now fundamentally changed, and I'm doubtful if we ever could make it work even if we tried: it would be challenging enough even with only half the things between us going on. Boundaries would need certainly be drawn and the rules laid out in the open.

I think I have the anwers, but I needed someone to ask the questions. And that's what this forum has helped to accomplish, so thank you, once removed. On some other relationship forums, polyamory has been sometimes met with open hostility, so it's nice to know that that's not the case here.

Of course, there's still the one major standing question, one that only she could answer, if even she knew how: what did she want of me? We'll see if that question is anwered in the future - but if not, I think I can get over it now.
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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2015, 02:32:21 AM »

hey confounded, just wanted to follow up

"What I felt at the time was like she was telling me to come closer, yet any time I did that, she pulled back" sure. the push/pull dynamic.

"But I never expected her to get out of sight entirely." i think its beyond imagination for most anyone. frankly, in my case, it just conditions you: ill pull away, she will pull back. the entire dynamic is exhausting. and though you could have gone through more of it, that doesnt minimize your pain and what youve been through. i couldnt expect my ending, it was contrary to everything i thought i knew in so many ways. maybe less personally, everything i thought i knew about people and how theyre "supposed" to treat each other.

"but the longer I resist, the easier it gets."  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

long before this i had a best friend of a decade flip out at me and cut it off. weve made amends and seen each other a few times, but never really reestablished a friendship. it was like a death to me too. i wanted to right the wrong, yell at him, confront him, for several months. i did in a journal, and i did at least once over instant message which he told me he didnt bother reading  Being cool (click to insert in post)   time healed those wounds. its not exactly the same situation, but you seem to be approaching it similarly and on the right track. in time my anger subsided and i validated myself. i saw what was his and what was mine. i felt at peace. i hope it doesnt sound cold, but ive never really "missed" him since. it was resolved. sometimes, sadly, that has to come from us.

"The way I see it, it was not I who did the disappearing act, so it's not up to me to try and make amends."  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I think I have the anwers, but I needed someone to ask the questions. And that's what this forum has helped to accomplish, so thank you, once removed.

i think thats right. ive felt similarly. it just simply helps to talk it out, get another perspective, feel out your answer, read your answer as youre writing it, the whole process is powerful and often underrated. youre very welcome.

"On some other relationship forums, polyamory has been sometimes met with open hostility, so it's nice to know that that's not the case here."

i do encourage you to continue posting, but as with any internet forum, you might meet someone who disagrees or is openly hostile. to my understanding thats not the policy of this forum, and as ive said, there are plenty who share and practice the dynamic of polyamory.

"Of course, there's still the one major standing question, one that only she could answer, if even she knew how: what did she want of me? We'll see if that question is anwered in the future - but if not, I think I can get over it now."

in general youre correct. but it still might be an answerable question. psychoanalytic theory would answer it fairly simply: what did she want of you? to become whole. you were seen as the means. thats not to imply you were rejected for failing, on the contrary, its a doomed process. we cannot become whole by attaching to another human being.
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