Strategies for dealing with perennial grumpiness?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Lately I've been trying to "back up" and look at the big picture.

It seems that many of us (nons) see a conversation as a time to communicate and get information.

It seems that many of "them" see it as a competition, some sort of zero sum game that can be won or lost.

Big picture questions:

Is this the "point" of the conversation, is this a long held habit or style, or does this reflect something deeper?

Is there a healthy way to say to them "I'm interested in communicating with you, I'm not going to compete with you in a conversation"

FF

[formflier]

Lately I've been trying to "back up" and look at the big picture.

It seems that many of us (nons) see a conversation as a time to communicate and get information.

It seems that many of "them" see it as a competition, some sort of zero sum game that can be won or lost.

Big picture questions:

Is this the "point" of the conversation, is this a long held habit or style, or does this reflect something deeper?

Is there a healthy way to say to them "I'm interested in communicating with you, I'm not going to compete with you in a conversation"

FF

[Cat Familiar]

It seems that many of us (nons) see a conversation as a time to communicate and get information.

It seems that many of "them" see it as a competition, some sort of zero sum game that can be won or lost.

Nailed it, FF. So many times when I'm just trying to share my opinion/feelings/some information, he will say, "You win." I'm left wondering What the heck?

But yes, you're right, it appears that he's always calculating that it's a win/lose game. What a miserable way to go through life!

Recently, I've been getting him to repeat things when he does his "low talker" voice while I'm making noise cooking or in the midst of another activity with background noise. Typically he'd say, "It's not important" or "It doesn't matter," which was infuriating to me--like he was punishing me for doing something which made noise instead of stopping what I was in the middle of and giving him my 100% attention. I've been repeating this phrase: "Everything you say is important to me, Honey."

I'm realizing that, rather than "punishing" me for not giving him my full attention, he probably feels so unimportant and judges his communication as non-essential.

[Ceruleanblue]

So my strategy has been to take on the mantle of trying to distract/amuse/entertain/improve/counsel/listen. I thought I was being a good partner, but now I realize that my motivation had an ulterior motive--I just didn't want to continue to listen to their whiny ass complaints, but nothing I seemed to do would make them happier, and ultimately me happier because they'd shut the f up.

Yes, it took me a while to realize this too. I think I always knew though that my motive was to make MY life easier, but of course I always hoped BPDh would realize that there are better ways to deal with rage, frustration and sort of just learn from my example. Didn't happen, of course, so I continued on the path, just hoping it would make my life less stressful. The problem is that with BPD or other PDs is that they thrive off chaos. If I didn't react, he didn't get his drug of choice: drama, and upset, or me begging him to "stay". When I stopped doing those things, he'd ratchet up the drama, or do something really different, like how he recently threw me out of our bedroom, and it's the spare room. It hurt a tiny bit, but I'd bet it actually hurts HIM much worse as he's very into physical touch.

Validating is great if it works for you, or the BPD you are with. For me, it did't work very well at all, as he felt I was being condescending, or he'd just outright would tell me he didn't care if I related to him, or how I felt. How do you deal with that? For me, I just stopped validating, and just tried to never invalidate him.

It's a losing head game, as far as I'm concerned, unless they really want help, this is how they'll be. My plan is to leave, and so I deal with his moods, rage, and weirdness until I can. Like you, I'm sort of detached now. I'm getting along in order to not make things worse, but with the realization that my actions alone can't make up for the bad financial position he's put us in, or the emotional wasteland he's made of our marriage. He doesn't want a connection with me, and I did for so long, but now realize that he's just not capable of it.

[Ceruleanblue]

Oh, I have to agree that any attempt at calm conversation is met by BPDh as me "lecturing" or trying to "control him". I see it as trying to understand each other, modify to suit each other(usually me him, which was clearly enabling and codependent), and of course we couldn't get anywhere, because he's almost always unable to get through a calm conversation. He just gets angry too fast, and he doesn't really HEAR what I'm saying, he twists it to make it into something opposite, and it's run through the BPD negative filter.

He's been almost fired at work due to his lack of communicating with his employees, so I know it's not just me. Some people are okay with having a partner they can't communicate with, but I've found out that is just not me. I need that at least once in a while, and he won't learn to, so it's yet another strike for me staying with him. I mean, even simple, need to know things don't get communicated to me, and if I want to know things, I have to ask his family. If I can't ask my spouse a simple question, that's not much of a marriage.

[formflier]

But yes, you're right, it appears that he's always calculating that it's a win/lose game. What a miserable way to go through life!
 

I'm going to ask Psychologist the best way to go about this.  My guess is there is a way to work validation into this by saying that they are important and to "gently nudge" them away from "win/lose" thinking.

I will try to come up with some good work tracks and post those later.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I appreciate people who want to clean up their language  

My goal is to very briefly, quickly, and without a lot of emotional power convey two things:

1. I noticed that you did something negative to me, and I'm not going to stick around for more of it.

2. I absolutely am not going to discuss or debate with you exactly what it was about it that twigged me.

I would accept an apology at that point. I won't stick around to hear any JADEing, or blame shifting, or judgements that there is something wrong with me for being overly sensitive, etc., etc.

The main point is that conscious and calculating or not, the statement/action was clearly made for that negative impact on me. It may be an unconscious habit. And it is time to change it.

Recently, I've been getting him to repeat things when he does his "low talker" voice while I'm making noise cooking or in the midst of another activity with background noise. Typically he'd say, "It's not important" or "It doesn't matter," which was infuriating to me--like he was punishing me for doing something which made noise instead of stopping what I was in the middle of and giving him my 100% attention. I've been repeating this phrase: "Everything you say is important to me, Honey."

I'm realizing that, rather than "punishing" me for not giving him my full attention, he probably feels so unimportant and judges his communication as non-essential.

Intentions matter at a time like this.

Sometimes something comes out of my mouth, and it just doesn't seem important enough to repeat, and perhaps I shouldn't have even bothered saying it. So that could be simple and true.

As you said, he thinks so little of himself that he's saying things to put himself down. That's a different thing, and depending on circumstances I can take that in a couple directions.

One--respond at face value. Perhaps not the best, but it at least discourages passive-agressive communication styles.  

Two--validate. Either his feelings of being unimportant, or that you care about what he has to say.  

   Realizing that this isn't about you, and you don't have to feel hurt/punished is a huge bit of progress on your part!

[Ceruleanblue]

He was in a training program several years ago where they talked about their emotional world, and he said that he was angry all the time. He also monopolizes conversations which they picked up on (of course), and he said he didn't feel listened to. These are people who are professionally trained to listen to others.

Anyway, I have a theory that the lack of ability to empathize with others also prevents their ability to receive empathy properly and prevents connection.

Now, I can identify that as a problem that I am not responsible for, and I try not to take the bait. I've been considering some kind of limit on how much complaining and 'discussion' I can tolerate for myself.

I think this is very true, and very good advice. We aren't responsible for their refusal or outright inability to communicate well, and their lack of empathy does prevent connection. I've been the cheeleader for BPDh, always trying to say "good in, good out", or that "what we think we create", and that maybe he can retrain his brain to be more positive. It was a waste of breath. I did it years ago, and thought he could too. I think they get something out of grumbling, so they continue to do it.

I think the idea above about not taking the bait, or setting limits on how much we'll listen to is a good idea. I found the constant putting me down, and utter negativity(mostly just about ME, but it was so constant), to be something I finally decided I just can't take long term. Plus, I think the rages and anger stem from the negative tapes running in his brain. It's not just with me, but mostly with me, and random strangers that tick him off. Being in the car with him is an utter nightmare.

[formflier]

  I think they get something out of grumbling, so they continue to do it.
 

All,

I think a slight rephrase has THE critical nuance.  

"I think they get something from the reactions of those around them out of grumbling, so they continue to do it.

Which is why I think it is critical that we should be very obvious that OUR BEHAVIOR in response to THEIR BEHAVIOR has changed and remains consistent in a "healthy response".

This doesn't make us responsible FOR their behavior but I do think (especially those in marriages) that we are responsible TO our partners for our responses being healthy.

I suspect I will have a conversation like this with my wife (sometime this week), where the concepts of "responsible for" versus "responsible to" are critical.

Thoughts?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I think I always knew though that my motive was to make MY life easier, but of course I always hoped BPDh would realize that there are better ways to deal with rage, frustration and sort of just learn from my example. Didn't happen, of course, so I continued on the path, just hoping it would make my life less stressful. The problem is that with BPD or other PDs is that they thrive off chaos.

Well said, Ceruleanblue! My ex-husband was like yours in that he also ratcheted up the drama--probably due to being co-morbid with ASPD.

With my current husband, validating doesn't always work. I think it's largely due to the fact that I can be rather clumsy and formulaic with it at times. I'm getting better. What really fails is SET. He often will mock my attempts to do that and even take the words right out of my mouth. So I'm left with trying not to invalidate him.

It occurred to me today how often he invalidates me! I showed him a hilarious video on my iPad, after asking if he wanted to see it. He couldn't even bother shifting his eyes away from his iPad for more that a couple of seconds, then paid no further attention to it. Also today I noticed several times when I was speaking, he had no comment and he even walked out of the room when I was mid-sentence. If I had done any of that, there would be hell to pay! At least with him, he isn't aggressively unpleasant, as opposed to my first husband. It's more of the whiny accusatory "You don't care about me" stuff.

[Cat Familiar]

Oh, I have to agree that any attempt at calm conversation is met by BPDh as me "lecturing" or trying to "control him".

Yep. I get this too. Sometimes I have to explain how to do something and it's almost like I'm talking to a teenage boy because he gets insulted if I go into too much detail, as if I'm insulting his intelligence. Yet, because he seemingly doesn't pay attention to consequences or learn from his mistakes, he'll do the same dumb thing again. If it doesn't impact me--such as putting a new red T-shirt in with white socks, I let consequences be his teacher, or not. However when he was ready to throw away all his new pink socks, I asked if he had considered washing them separately with bleach.

How does a man live this long and manage to be so utterly clueless?

[Cat Familiar]

1. I noticed that you did something negative to me, and I'm not going to stick around for more of it.

2. I absolutely am not going to discuss or debate with you exactly what it was about it that twigged me.

I would accept an apology at that point. I won't stick around to hear any JADEing, or blame shifting, or judgements that there is something wrong with me for being overly sensitive, etc., etc.

The main point is that conscious and calculating or not, the statement/action was clearly made for that negative impact on me. It may be an unconscious habit. And it is time to change it.


Yes. I definitely don't want to expose myself to any more unkind comments. I'm even getting irritated by the obliviousness I described a couple of posts above. He got a shot yesterday and is like a four year old today--"My arm hurts. It's really sore." (I had to ask him if he had considered taking an Advil. Nope.) So that's his excuse to be self-absorbed and grumpy. Tomorrow it will be something else--like the stock market took a dive. And the next day it will be something related to the presidential race. There's no end to the excuses he can come up with for being mopey and self-centered.

It's not like I don't have compassion for his aches, but good grief, I'm the one who had shoulder surgery and who has spent the last eight years of my life doing physical therapy. I don't gripe about my arm, even when it wakes me up in the middle of the night and I can't find a comfortable position to sleep.

OK. Whining over with. You make important points, Grey Kitty. Not sticking around for more and not discussing what triggered me. I've made the mistake of listening way too long and then having to defend why I was upset about something. Not going to do it any more. He can figure it out. Or not.

[Cat Familiar]

"I think they get something from the reactions of those around them out of grumbling, so they continue to do it.

Which is why I think it is critical that we should be very obvious that OUR BEHAVIOR in response to THEIR BEHAVIOR has changed and remains consistent in a "healthy response".

This doesn't make us responsible FOR their behavior but I do think (especially those in marriages) that we are responsible TO our partners for our responses being healthy.

I suspect I will have a conversation like this with my wife (sometime this week), where the concepts of "responsible for" versus "responsible to" are critical.


This is an important distinction, FF. To go to behaviorism, not reacting to the grumbling should, over time, and it may take a long long time, extinguish the behavior as long as we're consistent in our response.

I'm finally, after a lifetime of codependency, getting the notion that I'm not "responsible for" someone else's behavior. I do feel "responsible to" others by bringing my best self forward in every moment. Granted, sometimes that "best self" isn't optimal, but I do try. That's the irritating thing about people with personality disorders. It's like they are so overcome by their emotions, they don't give a f* about being their best self. And those of us who live with them get exposed to their ugly behavior regularly, while they are on their best behavior with acquaintances and strangers.   

[formflier]

"My arm hurts. It's really sore." (I had to ask him if he had considered taking an Advil. Nope.)  

Hey... .remember... .you are not "responsible for" solving things for him.  You are "responsible to" support him emotionally.

If you want to solve (Oh my goodness!  That must be hard for you.  Would it help if I gave you some advice on how to treat it?)

My preference would be (Oh my!  That must be hard for you.  How can I support you?)

I customized some of this for you Cat, because of your comments about feeling clumsy and formulaic.  I have similar feelings.  It does get better with practice... .and a good psychologist.  

But also, there is a truth here.  Your attitude is wanting to help (vice solve).  You are genuinely concerned, so you ask.

Thoughts?
 

FF

PS  Ever had an anthrax vaccine?  Good grief... that makes your arm hurt and looks like there is a baseball stuck in there.

[Cat Familiar]

Busted again! Thanks, FF. I don't realize how much I try to solve rather than support. It's like we've got the male/female roles switched in so many facets of this relationship.

Oh my!  That must be hard for you.  How can I support you?

Thanks. Words like that just don't come naturally to me. I'll need a lot of practice!

I've had some nasty vaccinations--not anthrax, thank goodness, so I do understand. But I've never used pain as an excuse to be rude and unkind.

[formflier]

Oh my!  That must be hard for you.  How can I support you?

 

Same for me.  Today, as the P was helping me with my email and conversation practice, it was so incredible to see how she easily simplified things and made them empathetic.

She actually talked for a while about how she is (many times) deliberate about the amount of empathy she expresses to clients and the importance of clarity and gentleness. 

Basically you can see how it is quite a skill to gently and clearly hand somebody and emotion back that they have just projected onto you. 

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I'm starting to see the wisdom in approaching him for sex again. I'm over being angry and in the long run, this might just cure the perennial grumpiness. 

[formflier]

Certainly I am writing out sentences you can say... .but I want to stress again that it's not about exactly what you say.  It's about your ability to :

1:  Pause and think about the mindset needed before speaking or acting.

2:  Basically two different mindsets.  1.  Am I going to be there for him, while still being watchful for a boundary incursion... .or... .2.  Are you going to be there for yourself (boundary enforcement), while being mindful that you don't want to overly inflame him.


3.  In either case you want to focus on being you (with some slight nudges) from the rules and knowledge that you have learned on these boards.  Time and time again, I see people on here say (and I used to feel this way) that "I was lost and didn't know who I was"... .because I was operating in "their world".

4.  Bottom line:  Operate in your world, do your best to be a supportive partner and let them solve their own emotional stuff.

Note:  I know that I'm not "there" yet.  But there have been times when I have been "there".  When I could listen to her say horrid stuff and honestly feel for her, yet when I walked away... .I was able to walk away and say "Wow... .sucks to be her... "  Yet there was no "sucks to be me".  I didn't get drug down.

Cat... .I really do feel like that you are poised to make a breakthrough for you.  I hope your hubby comes with you.  Perhaps you look back a time or two to see where he is, but please keep moving forward.

I'm especially impressed with the self-reflection about why you are the way you are.  That helps you identify what will likely be hard... .when you are making a healthy choice that doesn't feel... ."normal".

You are no longer an emotional caretaker... . Perhaps there are other things you can take care of for him... . 

Yeah... .went there... .

FF

[Grey Kitty]

OK. Whining over with. You make important points, Grey Kitty. Not sticking around for more and not discussing what triggered me. I've made the mistake of listening way too long and then having to defend why I was upset about something. Not going to do it any more. He can figure it out. Or not.

That is where consistent boundary enforcement works so well, especially because (in the words of a self-aware pwBPD/NPD, "I'm crazy, I'm not stupid" he will learn and notice.

You can "teach" him pretty easily that these things don't fly with you and you aren't putting up with them. He will figure it out whether he states it or acknowledges it or not. And it is his choice to continue... .or to shift gears.

I'm starting to see the wisdom in approaching him for sex again. I'm over being angry and in the long run, this might just cure the perennial grumpiness. 

  If the two of you are sexually compatible, it certainly does make things better and improve moods!

I hope besides seeing the wisdom of it, you are finding some desire/interest as well.

[Notwendy]

Sex releases all kinds of brain endorphins. Might help his moods. It will surely help your marriage if you both are willing.

As to desire ,I have read that post menopause- one doesn't always have desire, but the desire can be felt once things are happening. I think emotions drive the desire and when one doesn't feel connected that way, one may not feel desire much. Yet, with sex, your H may feel happier with you, and so then there could be room for the feelings.

While men have a decrease in hormones, I don't think it is as dramatic as menopause for women. Yet people can and do have active physical lives their whole lives. Everyone is different, but I found that a lack of hormones has decreased my interest, so I have to be willing to make this part of marriage happen.

A decrease in desire isn't the problem as much as the partner with BPD seeing it as rejection. I imagine that if a partner understood the physical aspects, he/she may be willing to work with it to keep the loving physical connection. But a pw BPD who feels rejected might just reject in return or withdraw for self protection. I don't think anyone should be forced to have sex against their will but without outright desire- willingness is enough to try. So as the Nike commercial says- "Just do it" and desire and connection might follow.

[Cat Familiar]

Ironically, now that I realize that I've gotten past my resentment and am in a mindspace where I can actually appreciate all the wonderful things about my husband, I got the worst cold I've had in years.

He's leaving for a Buddhist retreat on Sunday and we haven't as much as hugged, just so that I wouldn't give him my cold.

I'll have a week on my own to contemplate all this. Thanks everyone for all the great comments.