OM has fueled a sense of fear in my W suggesting that I am dangerous.

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Lets suppose another weird scenario...

The reason why my wife is seeking a D is because I have clearly shown that I am not prepared to accept/approve/tolerate her '<fill in the gap> relationship' with OM.

If I accept the relationship with OM then I don't get D.

So from now till death do us part I have to accept a relationship which has been innately toxic for my relationship from the start. A relationship where there the OM has shown evidenced divisive behaviour which is unequivocally anti me and against our marriage. Where OM has fuelled an sense of fear in my W suggesting that I am dangerous. Where OM has encouraged deceit and secretive behaviour. Where OM has encouraged my W to stop seeking reasons for our relationship break down or personal exploration in preference to spending time with him and projects where they could be together. Where OM has twisted religious teaching to endorse their relationship and alienate me as essentially a heretic.

Lets just suppose that my W was kinda okay with the 3 legged stool where she would gain romance from OM and she got financial stability and daddy day care from me... and she was willing to do this for the next 10+ yrs until the kids were older. This wasn't communicated with me but lets just suppose that OM and her had agreed that D was not on the cards for either of them and living in but out of their marriages was 'Ok'... and biblical.

So, me not being okay with the 3 legged stool and me persisting in telling one of the legs to 'do one' WILL result in my own D. The alternative being that I find "common ground" allow this intruder to stick around in my 'marriage' and live like this until such time one of the legs snaps.

Does that sound plausible?

[Enabler]

Lets suppose another weird scenario...

The reason why my wife is seeking a D is because I have clearly shown that I am not prepared to accept/approve/tolerate her '<fill in the gap> relationship' with OM.

If I accept the relationship with OM then I don't get D.

So from now till death do us part I have to accept a relationship which has been innately toxic for my relationship from the start. A relationship where there the OM has shown evidenced divisive behaviour which is unequivocally anti me and against our marriage. Where OM has fuelled an sense of fear in my W suggesting that I am dangerous. Where OM has encouraged deceit and secretive behaviour. Where OM has encouraged my W to stop seeking reasons for our relationship break down or personal exploration in preference to spending time with him and projects where they could be together. Where OM has twisted religious teaching to endorse their relationship and alienate me as essentially a heretic.

Lets just suppose that my W was kinda okay with the 3 legged stool where she would gain romance from OM and she got financial stability and daddy day care from me... and she was willing to do this for the next 10+ yrs until the kids were older. This wasn't communicated with me but lets just suppose that OM and her had agreed that D was not on the cards for either of them and living in but out of their marriages was 'Ok'... and biblical.

So, me not being okay with the 3 legged stool and me persisting in telling one of the legs to 'do one' WILL result in my own D. The alternative being that I find "common ground" allow this intruder to stick around in my 'marriage' and live like this until such time one of the legs snaps.

Does that sound plausible?

[formflier]

The reason why my wife is seeking a D is because I have clearly shown that I am not prepared to accept/approve/tolerate her '<fill in the gap> relationship' with OM.
 

Has she actually expressed this in this way, or is this "reading tealeaves"?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Purely hypothetical

[Notwendy]

I think each of them having a spouse at home to take care of things while they pursue their special friendship may be what is making your wife drag her feet with the D , so it is possible that you accepting the relationship would end this conflict- your wife could stay married and have her relationship with OM too.

Biblical? Jacob had 4 wives, Abraham had 3, so why not have one "spouse" to take care of things and the other one for a special friendship?

Then there's that stone tablet with some commandments on it.

I am being facetious  here. One could argue that tolerating anything, even adultery, in order to stay married and not divorce is ethical. Or one could argue that a marriage with adultery isn't ethical. 

I think most people are pretty clear on what the Bible says about the  big bad things to not do and the good things to do, but many of our decisions are about measuring degrees of ethical. This one has a lot of these.

This is a tough situation to figure out. It seems all involved are digging their heels in.

[Enabler]

IF that scenario were to be true and l will say now that I don't want to be part of a milking stool, is 'finding common ground' something I should do?

I don't think it is.

[formflier]

IF that scenario were to be true and l will say now that I don't want to be part of a milking stool, is 'finding common ground' something I should do?

I don't think it is.

There is a difference in "finding common ground" and changing your values to "create common ground".

Said another way, if through analysis you find people in this "quadrangle" that have common ground, that may be something to build on.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I think I would want to know what he means by finding common ground. That would take being calm and listening to him rather than shutting him down. You want a marriage with your wife, but she's been confiding in him for years now and communication with you has shut down. Maybe this man has something to tell you, if you were able to stay calm and listen.

Staying calm and listening is not the same as approval or condoning, or giving him an audience. It's just that- can you listen to what he has to tell you?

"Common Ground" could be anything from the fact that you are both human beings to both liking fish and chips. It can be agreeing to be civil. It doesn't mean you are going to agree with him on everything, or be best buds. It's about the basic civility between human beings, if you are able to do that.

[Notwendy]

I can only think of one scenario that comes close to this. There was a shake up in the company where my H worked.  People lost money, were resentful. Some of the partners and co-workers hated each other.

Yet, we had kids that attended the same school. They weren't personally close friends but they had mutual friends. We agreed to be civil. It was hard but one main point was for this to not affect the kids, get around the school, make it awkward for their friends. Another reason was it was ugly enough as it was without adding to it. These two reasons were the common ground.

Years later, there has been some reconciliation between the parties in conflict with each other. The hard feelings had some time to wear off. Did this happen because we chose to not add to it, to not fuel the drama? I would like to think that because of our choices, the bridge was not burned beyond that possibility.

You feel what you feel now, and it is understandable. Maybe think long range. Your daughter's wedding where she wants her parents and their significant other(s)( or wife if you are able to salvage the marriage and not be hostile with each other)  there too without it being a hostile situation.

IMHO  don't think we can go wrong when we choose civility.

[Enabler]

Maybe this man has something to tell you, if you were able to stay calm and listen.

This man thinks he's had something to tell me for several years now, and has intimated so... but what he has told me is a perpetuation of my W's narrative which is that I am abusive to her and the kids. He believes her narrative 100% without exception... which I believe was his original attractiveness in the first place. He validated her... relentlessly. He described his W's behaviour to her, she described my response to her behaviour (editing out her own behaviour) and bingo, they're utterly aligned. He thinks I am just like his W and my W has allowed him to believe and endorse that. She mirrored him and bingo it's a trauma bond match in heaven. The common ground is the story of why we are where we are (or my marriage to be precise), the difference is that I know and have evidence for the greater depth of knowledge I have of the situation with my W, whereas he just has her version of events. As much as it's tough to not invalidate my W's perception of the past... this guy is just and extension of her minus any evidence. Sunday he tried to impart his truth about me on me... I invalidated the lot of it... which no doubt he took as me just smashing him down and invalidating him.

Examples: W says I verbally abused her... yet I cannot find a single message since 2012 of verbal abuse over whatsap... and I have read the whole thread, all email, all text message. W says I coercively controlled her especially around employment, I have found numerous emails since 2005 where I was very reasonable and balanced. W says I weaponised sex, I have not turned her down in 23 years. Since the vast majority of what he says is not true, all I do when I am confronted with his/her version of reality is say "sorry, that's simply not true"... which he considers stonewalling and me not listening to him. He's utterly convinced that there's no way my W's perception of reality is incorrect and she has absolute integrity so any attempt to deny that "truth" is just me  being abusive and arrogant... "not listening". He cannot comprehend that what he thinks he "knows" is just one big distortion.

He has no desire to believe the truth, his whole relationship is reliant on him NOT seeing the truth and being utterly aligned to my W. Whatever desire he might have to impart her truth on me is utterly centred around rescuing her.

Then there comes the next question... if he is 'just friend' what was the need for 2x pregnancy tests!

[Stillhopeful4]

So, me not being okay with the 3 legged stool and me persisting in telling one of the legs to 'do one' WILL result in my own D. The alternative being that I find "common ground" allow this intruder to stick around in my 'marriage' and live like this until such time one of the legs snaps.

All I can see is Prince Charles, Princess Diana & Camilla and well we all know how that played out.

Best of luck to you my friend, this must be so hard to be in.

SH4

[Skip]

This is a very revealing post, Enabler. You may want to look deeper into the human dynamics of affairs and the human dynamics of divorce. You're basing your actions on perceptions that are not very unlikely.

1. Your wife was not brainwashed into this "affair". She is not in this affair because the "other man" is irresistible and persuasive. She is in an affair because your marriage has been broken for a long time. If the other man gets run over by a bus, she will find another "other man". We have many cases here at  bpdfamily to read. That's typically how these things go.

2. Divorce in a young family has a significant price. The anatomy of a typical divorce is a long period of relationship demise followed by a long period of building up to dive into the ice water of the divorce process and lawyers. There are starts and stops and delays... divorce is ugly and the process is rarely linear. It's not unusual for divorces to be filed, paused, refiled, delayed, etc. - or for the couple to not divorce until ever last excuse and delay has been exhausted.

3. If a spouse allows an affair, the affair partners will often use it as an incubator for their new life. There is little inertia to overcome to get into an affair and stay in it - they often start innocently and very low key. Conversely, there is a huge inertia to overcome to divorce - it's one of the most painful life experiences any of us exerience.

4. Having a cold war with the affair partner tends to bring the affair partners closer, strengthens their resolve, provides justification for the affair and justification for treating the spurned partner badly.

5. High conflict divorces are 5x more difficult than amicable divorces and the scars run deep long afterward. Interestingly, when they survey the high conflict divorcees, each partner blames the other partner for being the one who drove the divorce into high conflict. Most people who have been through a high conflict divorce would wish for a do-over.

6. The conflict of "high conflict" divorces typically carries over into co-parenting with pressure for the children to pick sides and endless bickering

These are the cards you are dealt. This is the mine field you have to navigate. Just. Fair. Truth. It's rarely part of this process. Unjust. Unfair. Different versions truth. It one reason divorce is so painful.

[sweetheart]

You have another choice Enabler, that you take control and responsibility of yourself, not the OM or your wife’s actions and lead yourself out of the triangle you are so tragically caught up in.
That you do not engage in JADE or behaviours that perpetuate the dysfunctional dynamic that exists between the 3, 4 of you if you have to include OMW.

When I read your posts for me they are filled with a type of magical thinking about your w and the OM, but tragically they are carrying on with their relationship regardless of your musings. That you have allowed yourself to be triangulated in a way that now has you immersed in this utterly futile discourse with the OM would suggest that such is your denial about the state of your relationship that you see your current dialogue as completely rational and self-aware.

You have other choices that are available to you that could extricate you from this quagmire of a situation, but to me your actions indicate that you are fully invested psychologically in continuing on your current path. I think you have a T, I find myself wondering frequently what are you working on there because your T if they are good at their job and you are discussing this there would be helping you shine a light on YOUR behaviour, choices, feelings, thoughts on all of this.

[Enabler]

This is a very revealing post, Enabler. You may want to look deeper into the human dynamics of affairs and the human dynamics of divorce. You're basing your actions on perceptions that are not very unlikely.

Which post specifically?

1. Your wife was not brainwashed into this "affair". She is not in this affair because the "other man" is irresistible and persuasive. She is in an affair because your marriage has been broken for a long time. If the other man gets run over by a bus, she will find another "other man". We have many cases here at  bpdfamily to read. That's typically how these things go.

I don't doubt this at all and I don't believe this is her first affair. I believe that there have been maybe another 2 or 3 but that is very much suspicion. There is a type of man that she stumbles upon whom fits the criteria: They don't challenge her version of reality and believe everything she tells them, they are a rescuer, they don't quibble about funding her entertainment (buy drinks no questions), they tell her she is perfect, they don't have a problem being the OM, they typically didn't know me 'that well'. I was that man once.

Regarding the brainwashing I believe that this came as a function of trying to justify the affair. Both have been complicit in the mutual brainwashing of each other. She believed the narrative (I believe because of BPD and the feeling of hurt by my abandonment) that I was abusive because that's what she experienced, he believed her emotional expression of that narrative and didn't seek to validate the facts. They then concocted a narrative which justified their actions, which has continued to pile up wrapping their 'friendship' into religion and spiritual destiny. The mutual narrative has become so entrenched in their story that it's part of the relationship... something I don't think was required in the previous relationships because no one else was getting hurt other than me... and I deserved it (in their minds).

2. Divorce in a young family has a significant price. The anatomy of a typical divorce is a long period of relationship demise followed by a long period of building up to dive into the ice water of the divorce process and lawyers. There are starts and stops and delays... divorce is ugly and the process is rarely linear. It's not unusual for divorces to be filed, paused, refiled, delayed, etc. - or for the couple to not divorce until ever last excuse and delay has been exhausted.

I can see how that can happen, although to an extent this is part her, part me. I have entered into a battle of attrition knowingly and purposefully since my experience in the past has been that there is a recycle... for reasons I never knew and weren't apparent, I mean I never had solid evidence of an affair before. Since Mar17 I have accepted divorce as a potential outcome... that's what she said she wanted. I have never not accepted it, just wasn't going to enable it.

3. If a spouse allows an affair, the affair partners will often use it as an incubator for their new life. There is little inertia to overcome to get into an affair and stay in it - they often start innocently and very low key. Conversely, there is a huge inertia to overcome to divorce - it's one of the most painful life experiences any of us exerience.

Agree this likely started as low key and very innocently. There came a point where the two of them could have chosen based on the advice they had received to 'do the right thing' from what I have read he pushed to not go cold turkey, she didn't disagree and such the weeds kept growing back stronger and stronger. He has helped her grow somewhat of a new life independently from me, and very connected to him... she works in the office at the school he is chair of governors for, he essentially gave her the job. He helped pushed her to do pastoral assistant course and go for voluntary work at prison. He rescued her, he helped fulfilled her ambitions for her. I did not.

I never allowed the affair or the friendship whereas in previous affairs I likely allowed the friendships because I didn't know they were affairs. Which leads to the next point.

4. Having a cold war with the affair partner tends to bring the affair partners closer, strengthens their resolve, provides justification for the affair and justification for treating the spurned partner badly.

Definitely and I can see how I fuelled the fire from Jan16-May17 (joined  bpdfamily) because I didn't allow the affair/friendship... which I knew wasn't a friendship because I had seen evidence it was more than a friendship... by that point the relationship was so damaged it was dead in the water on life support. OM had control and I was losing control of myself in a frantic effort to burst a bubble (and understand what was going on) I was inadvertently pumping with air from the other side.

Then, by my very existence I have been fuelling a fire just by being there and supporting a metaphorical cage because my W is not free... free to be with OM (or other) because I am 'in her life'. Previously she left for 3-4m got freedom and came back. She can't do this this time because that will impact the kids and she doesn't want to feel guilty about that... she doesn't even want them to know.

Maybe that's what OM is now trying to stimulate again with the attempt to find common ground... the sense of entrapment and common bond. I don't know, probably not intentional... but he's never been honourable before and always had an alteria motive

5. High conflict divorces are 5x more difficult than amicable divorces and the scars run deep long afterward. Interestingly, when they survey the high conflict divorcees, each partner blames the other partner for being the one who drove the divorce into high conflict. Most people who have been through a high conflict divorce would wish for a do-over.

Yes

6. The conflict of "high conflict" divorces typically carries over into co-parenting with pressure for the children to pick sides and endless bickering

There's limited bickering, it's a cold war, one of silence and passive aggressive behaviour... but yes, it's all conflict. Co-parenting was difficult before anyway, that was a source of enormous amounts of conflict which led to the initial issues in the first place.

I think you have a T, I find myself wondering frequently what are you working on there because your T if they are good at their job and you are discussing this there would be helping you shine a light on YOUR behaviour, choices, feelings, thoughts on all of this.

I think there is a difference of opinion. T doesn't see me as co-dependant, many board members here do. T see's that I have made a conscious choice to stay put and fill in. T see's that I know what is okay and what is not okay and that I am not blindly opting for a quiet life to appease my W and out of fear of what she might do. I am carrying on being a parent and doing parenting things because our kids deserve that + I am building a relationship for what might be in the future. We have worked on specific things like finances. My actions are not necessarily for the benefit of my W, my choices are for the benefit of all the family especially the kids. Making sacrifices I don't believe is codependant.

[Panda39]

(Panda's disclaimer) I worry about what I say here, it isn't my intention to be hurtful, or be argumentative.  I know we are all different, we all have different beliefs, approaches to things, and take differing amounts of time to get to places and are at different points on our own journeys. But I do want to share my opinion and experience.

You have another choice Enabler, that you take control and responsibility of yourself, not the OM or your wife’s actions and lead yourself out of the triangle you are so tragically caught up in.

Yes!  To me sweetheart is right on the money.

It seems that you are waiting for everyone else to do what you want them to, rather than deciding what you do.  It seems to me that you could be in this unhappy place for a very long time (forever) waiting for everyone else to do what you want them to do.  That is your choice, it is your choice to stay in this drama and spend your life trying to control other people and make them behave the way you want them to.  Or you can accept things as they are, let this go, move on, live a new life, find a new love, and focus on your children instead of drama.  It is your choice how you live your life.

I was married for 20 years to an alcoholic.  I was co-dependent, I was unhappy, there were verbal fights, DUI's etc.  I thought I was protecting my son by keeping my husband's drunken verbal abuse directed at me.  For 20 years I lived in an unhappy soup.  Why?  Fear...fear of not being able to support my son, fear I would be alone, fear of social situations, fear of pumping my own gas...fear.  But finally I just couldn't do it anymore I pushed through the fear and left my marriage.

By leaving I was the catalyst for positive change for us all. Divorce does not have to be a bad thing.

My son saw is mom make the healthy choice to leave the dysfunction and live a happy life.

My son once in a safe environment had anxiety come to the surface.  I had not been protecting him, he was in the house, he saw is drunk dad passed out in front of the TV, he knew his dad peed in water bottles rather than try to make it up the stairs to the bathroom, he knew his dad was hiding beer all over the house, he heard the yelling.  What was my son's roll in our dysfunction?  His roll was to be invisible and he learned well because once we moved out Social Anxiety surfaced.  He ended up seeking and receiving help through Therapy.  He was on the road to healthier mental health.

My ex hit rock bottom.  Had his 3rd DUI, lost his license, lost his retirement to pay for Attorney's, went to work smelling of alcohol and lost his job, had lost his wife, and saw his son every other weekend.  He finally realized and admitted that he was an alcoholic and he has been sober for at least 7 years now.  He has met someone else and has plans to propose this year.

I went on to have my own life (learned how to pump my own gas), met my current partner, fell in love, we've been together almost 10 years and last summer we and our children finally moved in together (the last kid finally graduated H.S.).  I also learned from my marriage.  Why did I stay so long?  What was I getting out of it?  I got a self-esteem boost.  I got to be the good parent, the responsible person, the person who did the right thing, I got to feel good about myself (superior) by stepping on my alcoholic husband.  I raised myself up at his expense.

I guess what I am getting at is what are you getting out of your current situation and can you look beyond where you are now, at what your life could look like? 

I am carrying on being a parent and doing parenting things because our kids deserve that + I am building a relationship for what might be in the future. We have worked on specific things like finances. My actions are not necessarily for the benefit of my W, my choices are for the benefit of all the family especially the kids. Making sacrifices I don't believe is codependant.

Why are you settling for this? Settling for a marriage with 4 people in it for the sake of your kids? Hoping for a happy marriage in the future that may or may not ever happen?  This is not doing anyone any favors, you or your kids.   

You and your children deserve better. 

Panda39
 

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with sweetheart and Panda.

You are stuck in a waiting for godot situation, hoping that your wife will have a sudden enlightenment and return to your marriage.

In your career, you must calculate odds, but it looks like in your personal life, you are desperately hanging onto a losing hand.

I had a similar experience in my previous marriage, but no children were involved. My husband announced one night, in bed with me , that he had this spiritual connection with a woman who was a “friend” of ours—and he could feel her energy there, right now. 

She was married too, but in a dead marriage and had a history of infidelity, which her husband tolerated, since she was far more attractive than he.

Of course I objected, obstructed, and did everything I could to sabotage this relationship, but they pursued it nonetheless.

In retrospect, I realized I could have quickly brought the affair to an end, had I told him to move out and go live with her.

Finally, she got bored with him and moved on. But it was miserable for me while it lingered.

[formflier]

You and your children deserve better. 
 

Which is why I asked some quantitative questions about amount of time Enabler spends with his kids now.  Said another way, how much influence does he have now.

So this can be compared to other choices.

Absolutely it can get better (for Enabler and the kids), it can also get worse.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Hey panda,

Please don’t feel scared to post, I didn’t take anything you said as hurtful.

My fear about the future is parental alienation,. the irony will be I’ll get access to the kids when I can’t and won’t when I can (hopefully remedied with child order) my W’s ongoing sense of being a victim (likely expressed in her not being able to manage money, using FOG to attempt to get more money). I fear what the children’s life will be like with greater stress, the home is like a tinderbox most of the time anyway without the domestic tasks I complete being left for W to do. She has near zero stress tolerance.

Other than that I have pretty much zero fears. I’m very self sufficient and resourceful. I certainly don’t rely on my w for a sense of happiness, superiority or competence. If anything I want and have always wanted for her to just get her act together deal with life just like everyone else. Maybe I deserve better, maybe I’ve always known that, maybe I’ve thought I deserved better when actually I didn’t, but one thing I do know is that my kids deserve better and they didn’t ask for this... and does better for me equate to better for them? In your case it would seem that was simple maths... is that the case for me?

[Skip]

(Skip's disclaimer) I worry about what I say here, it isn't my intention to be hurtful, or be argumentative.  I know we are all different, we all have different beliefs, approaches to things, and take differing amounts of time to get to places and are at different points on our own journeys. But I do want to share my opinion and experience.

I've been scratching my head on why you have rejected all the advice you have given in the last four hundred or so posts. What is the "thread" that connects your view points and actions?

Could it be that simple resentment and revenge over your wife's affair is your highest priority? I'm not being antagonistic. It might be worth exploring.

The relationship is long dead. There have been multiple affairs that last of which is 4 years and ticking. There is no talk or glimmer of rebuilding the relationship. Your tactics are mostly about making the affair and/or her exit from the marriage as difficult as possible.

Your focus seems to be on holding her (and the boyfriend) feet to the fire - to subvert her affair (fan the tensions) - to shame her before her children - forcing the house sale - etc. Your own well being and the kids are very important, but secondary.

This is not ideal, but people do this all the time. She has stomped all over you, treated you badly, slept around, is emotionally invested in another man, not there to attend to any need you might have as a human being, and with her partner, have defamed you as an abuser. She is well on her way to a better career, building a reputation in the church, having a new relationship and likely having primary visitation of  the kids - basically coming out better for all her bad deeds.

You are not in a great position - you will lose access to kids - move to a small apartment - carry child support - be alone to start over. She will have leveraged the marriage to better herself, build a relationship, and dump on you.

Hell hath no furry like the scorn of a Enabler. I'm not going to make this easy for you... you b-----

I get it.

Honestly, it's fine. And maybe that is the truth that needs to be embraced. It's certainly one I can embrace with you.

I think cloaking your anger as righteousness, truth, and holy - the greater good - is what is throwing everyone off. Maybe you have been throwing yourself off, too There is probably a StarWars quote for this (I know you like those   ) like maybe it's time to call a spade a spade.

You talk about the fantasy that your wife lives in - the carefully crafting her actions to look like "women of the year". People create these to live with themselves.

Could you be doing it, too?

[GaGrl]

I will weigh in now and say, I agree with Panda, Sweetheart, and Cat. "

And Skip is challenging your underlying motive(s). His questions deserve some serious soul-searching.

[I Am Redeemed]

I will have to say I agree with Panda, Cat, and Sweetheart as well.

Enabler,

Skip does have some very valid points to explore. (See disclaimer above and add my name in it). I've observed for a while now through these many threads that you seem to be holding on to a status that says "Martyr".
Sometimes within conflict, we can actually be out of touch with the emotions we are feeling. Could resentment and fear be driving your thought process and decisions, and entrenching you even further in your martyrdom in which you have even convinced yourself that you are happy?

[Panda39]

My fear about the future is parental alienation,. the irony will be I’ll get access to the kids when I can’t and won’t when I can (hopefully remedied with child order) my W’s ongoing sense of being a victim (likely expressed in her not being able to manage money, using FOG to attempt to get more money).

 

This is a possibility my Partner went through the above with his uBPDxw. He got through it, his daughters came around, his ex landed on her feet with the help of her FOO.

I fear what the children’s life will be like with greater stress, the home is like a tinderbox most of the time anyway without the domestic tasks I complete being left for W to do. She has near zero stress tolerance.

Is it possible that you are like I was and are underestimating how difficult things are now with the kids?  Could it be that living in your home half the time and your wife's half the time at least gives them a respite half of the time?  I would also say that sometimes we need to learn things the hard way.  It's tough to let our kids experience those things I know I watched my partner's daughters be disappointed by their mother over and over again.  But from those experiences they have learned to set boundaries with their mom.

In your case it would seem that was simple maths... is that the case for me?

It would seem that way now, but it didn't feel that way when I was in it.  I had a million reasons for why I should stay and used those reasons along with minimizing the dysfunction to stay in a marriage that I should have left at least 17 years earlier.  I wasted a lot time. I guess what I am encouraging is that you don't waste 17 years waiting for other people to change, like I waited for my ex to wake up and stop drinking.  Take your own destiny in your hands.

Panda39

[Enabler]

Skip, I don’t find your post very productive at all. I find it overly dramatic and very far from the truth.

Besides discussing asking for my wife to own the choice to divorce what have I done to stall the divorce? Nothing . When advised by FF to not do divorce work did I take that advice, no. Have I attended every single meeting she has arranged well prepared and adhered to the work I had been instructed to do, yes. Have I produced documentation as and when required, yes. Have my actions in ANY WAY at all prevented her from getting a divorce, no. I’m not forcing a sale of the house, her choices are since we both need the capital to buy new homes. She knows that.

Has she derailed her own efforts to move away from me? Yes. Did she set a date to tell the kids? Yes. Did she change her mind? Yes. Did she do the work she was set? No, on more than one occasion. Does she have funds to move out? Yes. Did she even exchange financial information on the date she stipulated? No.

Yes, I could have provided her a neatly wrapped divorce in linen cloth and tied a little bow round it. I could have even bought satin sheets for her and mr lover lover to come and rock the night away. I could have said “yes dear you’re right, I am abusove to you and the kids and you’ve been right all along, you and OM are meant to be together, this is clearly a god sent relationship and I will step aside so you can do gods work... heck I’ll even be a flower girl at you wedding”. I could have done all this having moved to Australia where she wouldn’t have to go through the daily torture of seeing my ugly mug. I could have told myself that despite my experience of her losing her rag with the kids on the first sniff of stress that they’re gonna be just fine... just like she was when she was anorexic and self harmed at university and well into her 20’s. I could tell myself that The kids would deal with that just fine, they’d get over it and they would probably prefer their new step dad more than me anyway. Maybe I’d pop back from Australia once a year to say hi. Oh, and when that doesn’t work out so well for W because let’s be honest this is OMs 3rd lap round the track and he has form in playing away, W will deal with that really well as well... as will the kids.

But you know what, I didn’t do that, I stuck it out. Not to sit here as a perennial victim, I know I could have left. I turn up to our home every day and I put a face on, I say hi, I get ignored 3x tonight, I tidy up, I play happily with the kids, I ask my W how her day is, I get “fine, you?” and she has no care for the answer. When she goes out I say “have fun. Do you need a lift”... as I always have done. I invite her family days out, I buy her Christmas and birthday presents (not romantic ones as she doesn’t want that). I listen to OM tell me XYZ about how I’m this that and the other, I don’t punch him because I know that If I did I’d get fired from my job because of a criminal conviction. I listen to him and even though I discredit every single ounce of gibberish that comes out of his mouth he will still walk away somehow feeling like I didn’t listen and he didn’t get through to me and that he knows something I don’t know, and that he tried and I didn’t hear him reaching out to me. When all the time I don’t want to be talking to him, I want to be talking to my W like I did in Jan and May where she says she was stuck, that she couldn’t be vulnerable again, that she couldn’t move forwards either though... and no, I didn’t mention BPD in those chats because I shouldn’t do that, because that would go badly and she’s not in the right place for that. I’m so bitter towards OM that I tried to help him with his own problems with his W after he’s got off the phone from her and was quite angry, I genuinely pity him and his inability to see what’s in front of his eyes.

My W is not building a new life for herself, she is doing what other people are telling her to do. Friends tell her she is abused, friends tell her she has no choice to divorce, OM tells her to take a job at the school, Vicar tells her to be pastoral assistant, sister tells her she needs to do more divorce stuff and think of the children, mum sends her scary articles about crazy men. Other people are constructing the life they think she wants, and they will all be to blame when it isn’t actually what she wanted, but they’ll be long gone.

I will not be in a flat, I will not lose visitation rights, I will not be done over. That much I am certain of.

Does this make me happy? He’ll no it does and my life could be infinitely more joyous, I don’t think I have denied that. But what’s your point? Some elements of my life suck at the moment, others definitely don’t, I have 3 great kids 2 of which came running downstairs to give me a massive hug when I got in tonight, I have a job I love, I live in a nice home and live comfortably, I eat well, I sleep pretty well, I go on good holidays, I’m financially okay, I have friends, I have a great family (slightly painful mum)... I just happen to have a wife that at the moment hates me. Would I be happy if I had a loving wife but had cancer? My W is one part of my life, she is not my entire universe, that’s the whole point of emotionally decoupling isn’t it?

[Cat Familiar]

Enabler, you’ve received hundreds of responses to your threads in the last week. It’s evidence that people care about you and your situation and want to help. That’s a lot of collective wisdom from people who understand the difficulties you face.

A couple of days ago, Skip asked you to look within and examine whether you might be “cloaking your anger as righteousness, truth, and holy.” Other members echoed that this would be a worthy endeavor.

Your response to that was snark and deflection. Notice that no one responded after you replied in this manner. Yes, we know you are working hard, trying to keep your daughters feeling protected, safe, and loved and perhaps that’s why so many of us have wanted to help.

But how do you think your response there came across?

There seems to be a common theme. You post a description about a situation and you receive a multitude of replies. But instead of addressing comments, you seemingly either ignore them, or explain why your way is better.

It’s similar to the “Yes, but...” strategy Eric Berne noted in Transactional Analysis.

I’m wondering if this might be the basis of your wife’s claims of “abuse”. We know that pwBPD can often be far more sensitive to criticism, feeling dismissed, feeling invalidated.

And I wonder how many members who’ve articulated very careful responses to you have ended up feeling invalidated by your lack of entertaining their thoughts.

I have no agenda other than to share any relevant experience or thoughts, however I wondered if I should even take the time to reply to you because it could well fall on deaf ears.

Perhaps by being a bit more confrontive, more explicit on my crititique, you might think about whether you have been unintentionally enacting this pattern with your wife and daughters. And if you have, please stop. Now. Listen. Reflect back. Take in what they are saying. Let them know you hear them and understand.

[Enabler]

Yes Cat, that is bang on correct. I typically have ‘a view’, which doesn’t tend to be very extreme. It takes quite a bit to move me from this view and those who attempt to change my view must be prepared to debate that view to change my mind. My mind can be changed and has on many many things, but I typically don’t change my mind easily. I can completely see how this feeds through to my W, especially since she wants me to just agree with her on everything and can’t handle me having a different opinion. She has strong views that change all the time. I have middle ground “it’s complicated” views that are sunk in 6ft concrete.

Does that explain why I’m such a hateful person to deal with on the forum?

Enabler

[Notwendy]

Enabler- I will try to respond to this. It’s not that you won’t agree to suggestions or change your mind, or have a counter discussion. It’s in how you go about it and the “interpretation” in your counter argument.

For instance - nobody said you were hateful. This is your assumption. When we do this ( and many of us tend to do this - this isn’t about only you ), the other person doesn’t feel heard for what they did say. This can feel invalidating.

So then imagine how that feels to someone with BPD ? I think learning to be a better listener is something many of us can work on. I think what you want is to relate to your wife better.

This also isn’t about being right or wrong. It’s about a willingness to consider doing something differently if what we are doing in a relationship isn’t getting the results we want.

This idea was explained to me by a MC. She said “my suggestions may work or not - are you willing to try them ? If they don’t work you can always go back to doing what you are doing.

I think that’s the intent of many of the suggestions here. What you are doing is getting you the results you have now in your relationship. Are you willing to try something different ? Are you open to suggestions ? When you make your counter argument it comes across as a strong “no”. That’s fine - it’s your decision. I think we all know that. But the method of the counter argument tends to shut down the discussion. With regards to your wife - she may have felt this and it may have felt hurtful.

Why am I saying this ? Not to be right or to make you wrong but in order for you to begin to achieve what you want - a connection with your wife. As Cat said - your wife and kids wand to know they have been heard.

[Cat Familiar]

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