"Sorry letters" - what's been your experience?

[pessim-optimist]

I am going off of an advice that I really liked from ForeverDad in the "False accusations... .  what to do?" thread.

He says:

I will just comment on one aspect - whether you should write a letter to her of some sort, apology or something else.  Personally, I would advise against putting anything in writing about alleged child abuse since she is likely to take such a letter and use it out of context sooner or later, over and over, as justification of anything and everything.  For example, if you wrote apologizing for anything that 'may' have happened, she may try to use it against you whenever her ever-changing moods turned her against you.  Putting anything in writing is just too risky in too many ways and would only complicate dealing with her in the future. IMO

The reason I am starting this thread is my uneasy feeling with V. Porr's suggestion in her book "Overcoming BPD" about the "sorry letters" that some people have talked about on this board. I am still reading that book and just still have the feeling that it is an attempt to appease the pwBPD and that in the long term it will have a negative effect. That there is a strong possibility that the pwBPD will take it as us agreeing with whatever accusations they made rather than us validating their experience.

So my question is: what has been your long-term experience (if any) with the "sorry letter"? Who has experienced a long-term improvement of r/s with your pwBPD, and who has (if anybody) had it turn against you ultimately?

Maybe I just still don't understand the concept of the "sorry letter". I am trying to weigh by other people's experience, whether it would be something worthwhile, because right now, I am still skeptical... .  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

I have been thinking about this myself lately too... .  the last few days have been tense at my home and last night my dd15 and i had an argument... .  today I thought about it a lot and decided I would say I was sorry to her for losing my temper and getting emotional... .  slipping into old ways... .  but I decided the more important thing to do was to be responsible for what I did... .  I told her I was sorry we fought and that I was trying to do the best for her and I was sorry I didn't keep my temper... .  well she looked shocked... .  she didn't say she was sorry but it didn't matter to me... .  I just need to model the kind of behavior i wanted to see in her... .  

My husband also ended up having words with her the night before as well... .  he decided to just leave... .  which must be nice but whatever... .  well today later after I had talked with her she talked with my husband and he told me she told him she was sorry for what she said and did! WOW... .  

The reason I told you this story is that I think a sorry letter would do a lot... .  when I think of the BPD and how they feel so wronged all the time... .  the slightest word or gesture interpreted as an insult or attack... .  I think a sorry letter might help them heal from their injuries... .  or perceived injuries... .  

[lbjnltx]

I have been thinking about this myself lately too... .  the last few days have been tense at my home and last night my dd15 and i had an argument... .  today I thought about it a lot and decided I would say I was sorry to her for losing my temper and getting emotional... .  slipping into old ways... .  but I decided the more important thing to do was to be responsible for what I did... .  I told her I was sorry we fought and that I was trying to do the best for her and I was sorry I didn't keep my temper... .  well she looked shocked... .  she didn't say she was sorry but it didn't matter to me... .  I just need to model the kind of behavior i wanted to see in her... .  

My husband also ended up having words with her the night before as well... .  he decided to just leave... .  which must be nice but whatever... .  well today later after I had talked with her she talked with my husband and he told me she told him she was sorry for what she said and did! WOW... .  

The reason I told you this story is that I think a sorry letter would do a lot... .  when I think of the BPD and how they feel so wronged all the time... .  the slightest word or gesture interpreted as an insult or attack... .  I think a sorry letter might help them heal from their injuries... .  or perceived injuries... .  

Great post Mrsjellibeans!

I am in complete agreement with your thoughts and perspective as I have had the same positive experience with my d.  Our conversations were both face to face as well as with her individual t in rtc over the phone.

In all things, be authentic.

[pessim-optimist]

Thank you, I totally agree with being authentic and owning our mistakes and it has worked for me in the face to face or on the phone and I think it does validate them and also models right behavior.

That part I completely support. I have a harder time with the idea of an "apology letter" when there has been a breakdown in r/s due to false accusations. We have had that happen and the only thing we found we could validate was that our usd32 was in a lot of pain and that life was difficult for her, which we did. But the idea of writing "we were sorry" for things we did not do... .  it just seems plain wrong. So, that's what I'm trying to figure out. Maybe the "sorry letter" V. Porr suggests just does not fit our situation?

[lbjnltx]

I think that being authentic can guide us towards making the correct decisions for all involved.

Don't validate the invalid.

We can validate their emotions/feelings around any event, we don't want to validate false memories/twisted facts.

No easy answers here.

 

[lurchlookalike]

Don't validate the invalid.

Right on target.

If it worked it would just be a temporary fix anyway, it's a bandaid, nothing lasting will come of it until they acknowledge their illness and get help for it.

ALL parents do things wrong and when you have a raging BPD (w/NPD traits) in your midst along with other kids you simply have to bring things under control, you can't let them destroy you and your other kids home life, and if you don't get it under control they will. In the latter teen years that means: "there's the door" and you have to be willing to take it to that level if they press you.

Of course it's not what you want to do, of course you made mistakes along the way, and this type of individual will exploit that to the MAX, once again, this has been my experience. They'd rather get their way than save the entire family.

The particular case I dealt with closely had a large dose of NPD as well. You can say you're sorry for mistakes but dramatizing all that in a letter as others have said above gives them another manipulation tool. There's no need to do that, it would just be a temporary fix anyway until your inevitable next "transgression" against them.

Protect yourself, protect the rest of your family as much as possible and treat BPD as you would expect to be treated given the same circumstance (if you acted in a similar fashion). I know it's a mental illness, but the Golden Rule trumps mental illness. Personality Disorders have a lot of deliberate behaviors too, that diagnosis doesn't give them a free pass to hurt others without consequences. In fact that perpetuates the behavior.

Be kind, be reasonable, but don't let them take advantage of you and other family members. This is particularly important if there are small children in the house too.

[twojaybirds]

I would be wary of writing anything.  A conversation perhaps or a letter validating feelings... perhaps yours.

without eluding to any specifics.

I wrote my dd a letter when she was first living on the streets. I told her I missed her, that we could work through this together yet I accepted her decisions to live the life she wanted.  I then gave her a list of a few local shelters with phone numbers/addresses  telling her in case she needed these.

It was used against as "see my mom told me to go live in a shelter.  She doesn't love me... blah blah blah"

[lurchlookalike]

I wrote my dd a letter when she was first living on the streets. I told her I missed her, that we could work through this together yet I accepted her decisions to live the life she wanted.  I then gave her a list of a few local shelters with phone numbers/addresses  telling her in case she needed these. It was used against as "see my mom told me to go live in a shelter.  She doesn't love me... blah blah blah"

That sounds like par for the course, exactly what I would expect, even with a thoughtful common sense letter like that.

For you Moms out there I am SO sorry you have to deal with this, Dads too, but most women have a more caring nuturing nature and I've seen this exploited to the maximum extent. I think it's particularly bad if there's some NPD in there too (and often there is, maybe even more so with males) but either way it just makes it so difficult for you. To take advantage of your Mom in this way is just horrendous in my opinion, I literally have no sympathy for it wherever that is going on.

I wish I could pass this bit of understanding along to ease your pain just a little bit. Often I think though that you just have to realize it. Don't blame yourself, I believe this disease is largely hereditary not having much to do with upbringing although if there is a BPD parent involved that will stack the deck.

Take care, there are some super ladies here, don't blame yourself and don't let BPD control you.

[nomoreoptions]

I think this disease can be caused by many factors.  While I think it is extremely important not to demonize parents generally, I have a foster kid who was brutally abused by his mother, and pimped out by her.  I find it hard to believe that his disorder has no relation to this.

[nomoreoptions]

Having said all that, I don't fully grasp the value of the sorry letter.  It so often seems like the pwBPD is just collecting ammunition (or at least it has seemed that way to me) so I'd be hesitant.

[lurchlookalike]

I think this disease can be caused by many factors.  While I think it is extremely important not to demonize parents generally, I have a foster kid who was brutally abused by his mother, and pimped out by her.  I find it hard to believe that his disorder has no relation to this.

His mother was obviously very mentally ill. I'd put my bet on heredity carrying the most weight.

It is important not to demonize parents. A BPD (w/NPD traits) person will leverage that to maximum advantage.

I'd also be willing to bet that the ladies posting here, supported by the fact that they are here, were and still are very good Moms.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[nomoreoptions]

I did not intend any criticism.  I have only had a kid wuBPD in my life for less than a year (although my father was a pwuNPD) and I feel as though I have aged 10.  This board is amazing, as are the people who inhabit it.  The courage, effort, compassion and support is overwhelming.  My other child was raised with love and validation.  Although my husband and I do not suffer from any mental illness, it certainly runs in our family, and it suddenly manifested itself in our daughter when she was 15.  I spent many months internally repeating to myself "she's ill, it's the illness speaking."  And despite her suicide attempt, hospitalizations, temporarily dropping out of school, etc., that was easier to cope with than NPD.  Because although it was a long, hard journey, it was treatable, and 18 months later she is hardly unscathed, but she is mentally healthy. I hope my son will be able to say the same someday, but I can't help but think the journey will be much harder and longer.

I can absolutely see him using such a letter in order to achieve some perceived goal, such as self-preservation. 

[jellibeans]

I think you need approach it a different way... .  not look at it as ammunition... .  that already puts you at odds with your child... .  is he/ the enemy?

When all we can do sometimes is change ourselves we need to attempt that for not just our child but for ourselves... .  I don't know if you need a formal letter but I try to think what a difference that might make to the pwBPD... Wouldn't you do anything to bring some happiness and hope to your child? It is so hard to be a constant target of the pwBPD but I try not to take it personally and I try not to look at as a war between the two of us... .  change your approach and I bet you might see a difference. At the very least it will shock the hell out them... .  

[suchsadness]

I am very interested in this post - as I have been struggling with "to write or not to write" the letter.  I started the False Accusations post because my unBPD dd35 is blaming me for bringing men into her life that abused her... .  which she won't discuss with me or give me any details about.  I believe that she told her ex that all this abuse (molesting, emotional abuse, beating, and eventually rape) was the reason she acts the way she does.  Now he (the ex) is threatening to talk to me and her dad (my ex) about it so she is in a panic and has threatened NC with me in order to keep me from finding out what she is saying.  She says she will NEVER EVER talk to me about it... .  hmmm.

I have been tossing around the idea of writing a sorry letter - even tho I don't know any details of her alleged abuse... .    I was going to tell her I'm sorry for any choices I made that caused her to suffer.  HOWEVER, after reading your posts I do realize that it will be something she can (and most likely will) hold on to to use against me. She would see it as confirmation that it was all my fault and is my fault that she is unhappy and unstable.  I am still thinking about writing something to let her know I am sorry for her pain, but again she takes things the way she wants to hear them and I predict that she would say that I am admitting it was my fault (for whatever did or did not happen).  I told her I realize and accept that she doesn't want to talk to me about her past - this was taken as "see, I was right - you knew about it!"  Wow, it is just too crazy how everything is misinterpreted and twisted... .  such a "damned if you do" and "damned if you don't" life.   

[lurchlookalike]

I did not intend any criticism. 

I know you didn't hon, nothing to worry about. I'm sure you are a good Mom too. If you think about it, all these ladies who are posting here are concerned. That in itself indicates compassion and caring.

Women (Moms) are more vulnerable to BPD (w/NPD traits) child abuse attacks although it certainly hurts Dads too. Nobody but the most callous individual would ever attack their parents in that manner, except in the most egregious circumstances and likely not even then.

In order to understand the above statement you have to be a concerned parent or at least have some level of maturity and think like an adult. Unfortunately these BPD (w/NPD traits) people are so emotionally immature that they can only think of themselves, like babies.

I completely agree that NPD is worse, more callous and manipulative.

[Being Mindful]

I did not intend any criticism.

I know you didn't hon, nothing to worry about. I'm sure you are a good Mom too. If you think about it, all these ladies who are posting here are concerned. That in itself indicates compassion and caring.

Women (Moms) are more vulnerable to BPD (w/NPD traits) child abuse attacks although it certainly hurts Dads too. Nobody but the most callous individual would ever attack their parents in that manner, except in the most egregious circumstances and likely not even then.

In order to understand the above statement you have to be a concerned parent or at least have some level of maturity and think like an adult. Unfortunately these BPD (w/NPD traits) people are so emotionally immature that they can only think of themselves, like babies.

I completely agree that NPD is worse, more callous and manipulative.

In my heart, I know you didn't mean any criticism. It was hard for me to read your statement. It was a huge trigger for me and I stepped away from the thread since first reading it... .  taking good care of myself  .

The very, very difficult part is that many of us have spent years with a stigma attached to us that we have harmed our children, or that it is our fault. Often, our experiences with this brought great wounds from family, friends and professionals. My heart sinks when I hear blame, sort of opens old wounds that I thought were healed. There are many people who have had terrible abuse and BPD develops, many others that are abused and don't ever develop a sign.

I feel for all in your family... .  your son and his bio-mom. Sounds like she was mentally ill too. My d. is adopted and her bio-mom suffered with a great amount of mental illness. Very sad.

Like cantelpez said, don't worry about it   . It is good to review this topic every so often; to reopen dialogue and learning.

Being Mindful

[nomoreoptions]

I'm so sorry.  I was only posting from a very specific perspective, where it was probable that both early/pervasive substance abuse and extreme abandonment and physical/sexual abuse contributed to our son's problems.

I have every sympathy.  Although our daughter has no personality disorder, when she was mentally unwell I can't even begin to tell you what she convinced a staff at one of the best hospitals was true.  She used to spend huge amounts of time at Barnes & Noble in the psych sections, and I swear she was learning and embracing disorders faster than I could tell her psych team the symptoms.  Mental illness is a horrible thing.

[Being Mindful]

I'm so sorry.  I was only posting from a very specific perspective, where it was probable that both early/pervasive substance abuse and extreme abandonment and physical/sexual abuse contributed to our son's problems.

I have every sympathy.  Although our daughter has no personality disorder, when she was mentally unwell I can't even begin to tell you what she convinced a staff at one of the best hospitals was true.  She used to spend huge amounts of time at Barnes & Noble in the psych sections, and I swear she was learning and embracing disorders faster than I could tell her psych team the symptoms.  Mental illness is a horrible thing.

Not to worry at all   

This is a good topic because it hits all of us and it is good to discuss, learn and move forward. I'm so glad to hear that your daughter is doing well.

Keep posting, reading and sharing.  It is so good that all of us can share this very difficult road together.

Being Mindful

[nomoreoptions]

Thinking about it from where I'm at, though, it's not just BPD, although that's probably much harder to explain than "simple" depression, anxiety or substance abuse problems.  My non daughter was sick and I lost virtually every friend that I had made during her school years. All nine years of them, with a couple of years as class parent.  She was "toxic" to all the families when she became not-so-perfect.

We are not always such a generous society.  But this community is.

[lurchlookalike]

One last word here, I hope this makes just a little dent in the collective consciousness about this illness even though you all may already know. No matter what your son or daughter has told you, no matter what any of the "professionals" have said, this condition is NOT your fault. Someone asked if we were dealing with an enemy here, the answer is absolutely YES. The enemy is the illness but if it has a strangle hold on your son or daughter they really are one and the same.



This particular enemy, living in your home or even calling and texting with vicious accusations about child abuse can destroy the delicate fabric of your family, not just the relationship with them. It can make the lives of your other children tense and miserable and it can destroy your marriage. You definitely are fighting an enemy here, you have to protect yourself and the rest of your family.

This doesn't mean you don't care, don't love them when all is said and done, and don't come to their aid within reason. But, this repetitive cycle of painting you black, sometimes white, then back to black again will go on and on and on until THEY take the initiative to help themselves. You can't do it all for them and in the meantime you have to protect yourself. The primary weapons BPD and particularly NPD people use are guilt, combined with fear and raging chaos at times, it's a psychological attack, is often very manipulative, and can play one parent against the other to get their way.

Once you see the repetitive pattern in perspective, know what it is and know what to expect then not too much will ever surprise you. You are way ahead of the game here by just knowing, or at least strongly suspecting what you're dealing with. After that you tend to see the pattern and even though an explosion can be triggered at any and often a most unexpected time, the effect will be greatly reduced and it won't throw your homelife into complete shock.

Much love & respect!

[Kate4queen]

Unfortunately when your son/daughter addresses every contact with you as if he is in a battle to save himself from your evilness, it can feel as if you are at war.

My son is incredibly smart and amazing at using words. I would no more give him a written sorry letter at this point than I would stand out in traffic on the freeway. I know he would take it and run with it and we'd find ourselves in court with the potential of losing our youngest daughter from so-called abuse. He desperately wants her to be on 'his side' because that will justify his world view as us as bad people and abusive parents and I know at this point he'll use anything to get what he wants to maintain his world view.

And when I say 'him' of course I mean his BPD and NPD, but even though I understand this motivation, I still can't let him destroy what I've managed to salvage of my family by offering him what he would see as proof of my failures.

One day maybe in the future I'll be able to write to him or speak to him face to face and tell him that I did the best I could at the time and that I'm sorry that he felt that I'd failed him, but that's about as far as I think I'm prepared to go.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lurchlookalike]

Kate, bless your heart, to me that sounds like there could be a large dose of NPD (e.g., "it's all about me" going on with your son. What's so insidious is the high intelligence combined with such low level emotional maturity. Kind of like giving an AK-47 to a 5 year old. I'm guessing your son is also very logical with his arguments which can sound completely plausible to an outsider (or even to you) until you more closely examine ALL the details. When you carefully examine the reasons behind your actions the real truth gradually emerges.

Bottom-line is I think you will be fine. How could I possibly say that without knowing you or more details about your family? Basically 2 reasons, one is that you have a very good idea of what you are dealing with already, secondly it sounds like you and your husband are staying together on this. If your son were able to split the two of you apart it would make things much more difficult than they already are. One way that is done is to find an area where you and your husband somewhat disagree and then to continuosly violate that particular area of disagreement.

For a hypothetical example let's say your husband thinks smoking a little pot is OK and you don't. Your son then repeatedly smokes pot, leaves some around the house for you to find, you blow up and your husband gets angry at you for getting so upset. This tactic, if done over and over again can break your family apart. This is just 1 example but it could be anything where the 2 of you disagree. An NPD person would put getting their way about something so trivial above destroying you and your entire family.

Stay strong, you don't owe an apology to anyone, your son owes you much more than he can ever repay. Make sure you and your husband stay in-sync and watch out for the other children in your family. Your son is now an adult. Do what is reasonable for your son, just as long as it doesn't sacrifice the well being of the rest of your family.

[suchsadness]

He desperately wants her to be on 'his side' because that will justify his world view as us as bad people and abusive parents and I know at this point he'll use anything to get what he wants to maintain his world view.

This is an interesting comment - and an approach that my T calls "aligning".  My uBPD35 has been trying to convince my dd37 that the abuse she is claiming actually did happen.  She is telling her "You don't remember because I tried to protect you from all this... .  but here's what happened".  Then she goes on about all these incidences that nobody knows what she's even talking about.  An apology of any sort that contains the word "sorry" would probably cement in her mind all of her preceptions and lies.  How sad, it just makes me want to cry for her.  I realized last night why she didn't want me at the family intervention (she went into outpatient rehab a few years ago) - because I'm sure she was telling all the people in group about all this abuse that happened in her childhood  :'(

[Kate4queen]

Kate, bless your heart, to me that sounds like there could be a large dose of NPD (e.g., "it's all about me" going on with your son. What's so insidious is the high intelligence combined with such low level emotional maturity. Kind of like giving an AK-47 to a 5 year old. I'm guessing your son is also very logical with his arguments which can sound completely plausible to an outsider (or even to you) until you more closely examine ALL the details. When you carefully examine the reasons behind your actions the real truth gradually emerges.

Bottom-line is I think you will be fine. How could I possibly say that without knowing you or more details about your family? Basically 2 reasons, one is that you have a very good idea of what you are dealing with already, secondly it sounds like you and your husband are staying together on this. If your son were able to split the two of you apart it would make things much more difficult than they already are. One way that is done is to find an area where you and your husband somewhat disagree and then to continuosly violate that particular area of disagreement.

For a hypothetical example let's say your husband thinks smoking a little pot is OK and you don't. Your son then repeatedly smokes pot, leaves some around the house for you to find, you blow up and your husband gets angry at you for getting so upset. This tactic, if done over and over again can break your family apart. This is just 1 example but it could be anything where the 2 of you disagree. An NPD person would put getting their way about something so trivial above destroying you and your entire family.

Stay strong, you don't owe an apology to anyone, your son owes you much more than he can ever repay. Make sure you and your husband stay in-sync and watch out for the other children in your family. Your son is now an adult. Do what is reasonable for your son, just as long as it doesn't sacrifice the well being of the rest of your family.

Thank you, that means a lot.

Aligning is very interesting, isn't it?

For years I was the good parent and my husband was the bad. It took me realizing what was happening to finally stand together with my husband and face the issues as a team. That's why my son walked out... .  

[mggt]

Our d has caused so much heartache and problems between me and my h she has accused me of strangling her to one of t .  The t in turn called dss on us and I was so upset that the t would believe her.  :)ss threw out the case but needless to say we did not go back to that t.  It is very hard to find a good t that knows BPD inside and out because our children say stuff to them and they believe every word to me the t needs to have some common sense and be very uptodate on BPD.  She has told so many storys of me especially me to anyone who will listen including all of her therapist and the funny thing is they always believe her .  My d has caused problems between family members telling non truths about me and my h.  Our d can come off very caring and almost like a wounded animal it is so frustrating because when she is in our home she is like a crazy bear screaming swearing and attacking us .  Anyways i totally agree with cantlopez because we have been there many times and Im sure more to come.  Right now me and my h are not talking because of d . This has been a constant in our life since d was little always playing dad against me Im so sick of it I need support too.

[pessim-optimist]

This is an interesting comment - and an approach that my T calls "aligning".  My uBPD35 has been trying to convince my dd37 that the abuse she is claiming actually did happen.  She is telling her "You don't remember because I tried to protect you from all this... .  but here's what happened".  Then she goes on about all these incidences that nobody knows what she's even talking about.  An apology of any sort that contains the word "sorry" would probably cement in her mind all of her preceptions and lies.  How sad, it just makes me want to cry for her.  I realized last night why she didn't want me at the family intervention (she went into outpatient rehab a few years ago) - because I'm sure she was telling all the people in group about all this abuse that happened in her childhood  :'(

I totally agree. That is my fear in our situation also. Lots of false accusations and triangulating anybody who will listen and believe. I was considering the "sorry letter" even though I was really skeptical because of all the reasons that many people have voiced here. I think I'm going to go with my gut and your experiences on it.

Thank you so much for all your posts and keep posting if it seems relevant. It's been a good discussion so far! 

[pessim-optimist]

Our d has caused so much heartache and problems between me and my h she has accused me of strangling her to one of t ... .      My d has caused problems between family members telling non truths about me and my h.  Our d can come off very caring and almost like a wounded animal it is so frustrating because when she is in our home she is like a crazy bear screaming swearing and attacking us... .   Right now me and my h are not talking because of d . This has been a constant in our life since d was little always playing dad against me Im so sick of it I need support too.

Oh, mggt, that is SO TRUE and SO SAD, our usd32 does the same thing in our family. And OMG! She definitely tries to get between me and my h (but I thought it was a normal thing, because I'm not her mother and came into her dad's life after she married... .   Now that I hear that more of you have the same problem with your bio-kids, I am starting to realize it is a BPD tactic rather than common "step-parent" jealousy... .  

What helped is that my h and I are very much on the same page regarding our values and lifestyle. But in spite of that our usd32 tried to get between us on many occasions. It helped when we realized that that's what was happening and decided to stick together.

Is there a way you can talk to your h about this dynamic (maybe after you resolve this particular issue and all is peaceful again) and explain to him that that's what's happening? Maybe he will listen, and you could be prepared for the future and be on the lookout for recognizing when it happens the next time?