The Cruelty Factor

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So as a pwBPD detaches, I have read that they must make you 'all bad' so as to split off their bad parts but also use the smearing of you as a rescue call to the new attachment.

I have no idea whether my exBPD smeared me, but I do know he went to great lengths to demonstrate his emotional withdrawal. Never returned phone calls. All rudeness and eye rolls when we did actually catch up.

After one of his rages I asked him point blank why he hates me now. He said he has a 'mounting resentment toward me that he doesn't understand'. As it turned out, I ended the sexual r/ship and only witnessed the horrific cruelty of the illness as I tried to remain friends.

I know we can't control how anyone reacts to a break-up and that it was his choice to not want to hear from me, but that's not how it played out. He was very keen to catch-up but then always, always rude and nasty when we did. I could tell he was grappling with it too

Until finally (when I assume new supply was secured) he went silent and never communicated again. And in those early few months as I clung to the illusions and hopes, he was particularly cruel - both blatantly and subtly.

So I wonder... .  do they have to be cruel at the end? Can they finish with the discard... .  or do they have to stick the knife in a couple more times? Are they angry at us because it didn't work out or do we represent the trigger now... .  the reminder of their primary abuser / punitive parent?

Just curious to know if some of the break-ups were clean and respectful?

I guess the last thing I am stuck on is the answer to that question... .  my ending just felt unnecessarily nasty. That's all

thanks

BB12

[bb12]

So as a pwBPD detaches, I have read that they must make you 'all bad' so as to split off their bad parts but also use the smearing of you as a rescue call to the new attachment.

I have no idea whether my exBPD smeared me, but I do know he went to great lengths to demonstrate his emotional withdrawal. Never returned phone calls. All rudeness and eye rolls when we did actually catch up.

After one of his rages I asked him point blank why he hates me now. He said he has a 'mounting resentment toward me that he doesn't understand'. As it turned out, I ended the sexual r/ship and only witnessed the horrific cruelty of the illness as I tried to remain friends.

I know we can't control how anyone reacts to a break-up and that it was his choice to not want to hear from me, but that's not how it played out. He was very keen to catch-up but then always, always rude and nasty when we did. I could tell he was grappling with it too

Until finally (when I assume new supply was secured) he went silent and never communicated again. And in those early few months as I clung to the illusions and hopes, he was particularly cruel - both blatantly and subtly.

So I wonder... .  do they have to be cruel at the end? Can they finish with the discard... .  or do they have to stick the knife in a couple more times? Are they angry at us because it didn't work out or do we represent the trigger now... .  the reminder of their primary abuser / punitive parent?

Just curious to know if some of the break-ups were clean and respectful?

I guess the last thing I am stuck on is the answer to that question... .  my ending just felt unnecessarily nasty. That's all

thanks

BB12

[just_think]

They have to stick the knife in. 

You are correct, with the splitting, they have to transfer their negative emotions on to you.  If you aren't all bad, then they have to feel the guilt of breaking up with you.

With NPD, it is similar and I think it may play in to it.  They are like the playground bully - if they beat you up, then it proves their superiority.  It doesn't matter that you weren't looking for a fight or you wanted the best for them.  They beat you and won. 

[GustheDog]

My breakup sounds nearly identical to yours, and, I expect, most others. It's necessary, I think. Sure, they're angry and disappointed with us because the relationship did not work out, but – and I think most importantly – they genuinely do believe that we are the enemy and mean them harm at this point in the game.

At the end of the relationship, they perceive us as controlling and manipulative, trying to "change who they are." There's a 2010 post somewhere that I'll paraphrase as well as I can: Borderlines cling to and then eventually hate those that support them. They're compelled to serve another person and attach to them for their survival, but soon the good feelings that arise from pleasing another person turn into a distorted perception of captivity and control. The borderline cries foul when their submissiveness become so extreme – at their own doing – that it gives the partner the appearance of a taskmaster and the borderline a reasonable out based on their inner persecutorial ideas of reference.

They have no self, but they can't acknowledge this. The scapegoating and blame that they project onto us is due to the fact that they feel they've lost themselves in the relationship, and also on the belief that this is our fault.

But of course they feel they've lost themselves – in a sense they're always losing themselves: Each new person they attach to represents, in effect, a change in "who they are" – they change when their mirror changes. Yet they do not understand that they are the cause of this. In my case, at least, this element was manifested at the end of the relationship when my ex would rage at me for trying to force a certain lifestyle on her. But the reality is that everything about the way we lived, as well as the plans we'd been making for the future, were almost totally done at either her suggestion or enthusiastic agreement. I even told her, in the middle of one of these ranges, that I had followed her lead for practically the entire relationship in terms of the direction we were headed - and I had been very adamant about discussing pivotal decisions with her before going through with anything. She always gave impression that we were more than on the same page.

The nasty rages, insults, and character assassinations would continue for a few weeks beyond the breakup. Since then she's gone completely silent and, apparently, has sealed me out for good.

It looks like you're familiar with the concept of BPD as a persecution complex. This was probably the single most helpful method of explaining the disorder for me in terms of detaching. Even though I was not actually persecuting, controlling, or manipulating my ex, her distorted perceptions made her believe these things were true, and she behaved accordingly. If I believed that someone was doing these things to me, I can't say that I would respond any differently.

[Wooddragon]

One thing I struggle with dealing with is the recollections of the casual cruelties during the relationship & even when he was trying to win me back - backhanded criticisms of my appearance but cloaked in "complements". Like gus I also had the experience of having the most sinister motives attributed to plans etc that we had made together.

Early on he wanted to do nothing but talk about how we could be together & all that got well & truely thrown back at me down the track. How is it ever possible to be confident in another relationship after that crap?

[mosaicbird]

Absolutely... .  Each time we broke off (think once or twice a year for twelve years straight), it was predictable. Suddenly I was painted as hateful, cruel, soulless, inhuman, and broken beyond repair by her. It puzzled me that she would keep re-engaging if that's how she felt about me! 

[findingmyselfagain]

The official break-up went probably about as well as it could have. She gave me my ring back and pretty much just said she needed to work on herself and it wasn't fair to me to have to wait on her. It seemed as if she was interested in working things out or hanging out after some time passed. She said she understood if I wanted to date, but that she "couldn't". I felt disloyal to date then, so I waited a while and tried to keep communication open with her.

The cruelty for me was being pushing out of their lives so completely and so quickly. I had practically adopted her baby daughter. She had her calling me "daddy" early on. She lived with her parents, and I had dinners with them, went on outings, went to church, etc. My sudden (appeared to me) devaluation was understandly a complete shock to me.

After the break-up, If something made her "uncomfortable" (like talking to one of the church members) I had to comply immediately... .  but my feelings weren't taken into consideration. I'm not sure they ever really were. Much, much later I found out she was having debilitating panic attacks after our wedding shower and in the weeks leading up to what would have been our wedding date. She was the person who was driving the planning, paying for what she could, and even made a "wedding book" for her mother.

It's evident that she is very insecure, broken, and unpredictable. Unfortunately a break-up with that kind of person probably isn't going to be healthy. The utter cruelty of completely cutting someone out of your life who invested so much in her, daughter, and family. I won't ever choose to be with someone like her again. As I was telling one of my girlfriends, Bless her heart, but stay out of my quadrant for a long time... .  

[charred]

Absolutely... .  Each time we broke off (think once or twice a year for twelve years straight), it was predictable. Suddenly I was painted as hateful, cruel, soulless, inhuman, and broken beyond repair by her. It puzzled me that she would keep re-engaging if that's how she felt about me! 

I love the point your making... .  I have puzzled about the same thing. How in the world can someone say horrible things about me, be so angry they look possessed... , claim I am soulless, broken, etc... .  and then keep coming back. It isn't imagination, my exBPDgf told her friends and family horrible stuff, then I went back with her a number of times and clearly they had bought her tall tales. Now I don't agree to see her, I just will go LC if she wants and the back and forth always goes the same way, she thinks we stand a chance... .  I should admit everything is all my fault, and when I don't, the hateful rhetoric comes out... .  and she goes away... .  till next time.

I think we are dwelling on symptoms... .  and just need to accept the disorder and run from it.

[Take2]

My ex is a master at the cruel ending... .  which he has done with increasing severity with each break up because each time he has added on more accusations of things I haven't done to ruin his life... .  he truly spews hatred at me in the most hurtful waYs he can't thik of of... .  yet once I have finally admitted defeat and truly begun to think he is right that I must really be such a horrible person... .  he will very quickly reverse and extend a kind word as if days of cruelty hadn't occurred.  I keep hoping we can find a way to end it peacefully but it sounds like might never be possible?

[mosaicbird]

I love the point your making... .  I have puzzled about the same thing. How in the world can someone say horrible things about me, be so angry they look possessed... , claim I am soulless, broken, etc... .  and then keep coming back.

And then they (or at least mine) would attempt to ameliorate it in this backhanded, "Well, despite those faults, I still love you anyway. You're so ungrateful and don't appreciate all I've suffered for you. Yadda yadda yadda." sort of way. Like, thanks a lot! Thanks for deigning to tolerate me, and blessing me with your presence despite my being a horrible person. 

Maybe I am focusing on the symptoms, but I'm not at the point yet where I can move on with "It was a disorder"... I'm still going over the history and putting the pieces together.

[trouble11]

So sorry finding and all of you.  The absolute sickest and most cruel aspect of this often has nothing to do with us.  In a way, a discarded non is the lucky one.  I'm referring to the children of these people.  I'm lucky in that regard as we had no children involved, but you know they don't' tell these kids it it's them that's sick, or that they asked the non to leave.  I not going to speculate, but one doesn't have to do much reading to figure out what kinds of things these children hear.  Thus the cycle continues.  :'( In my heart of hearts I don't hate my ex, as I know he really couldn't help himself, but I still can't say that for the BPDs with children involved.  I think I will always HATE them.  I don't know for sure which one (mother,  father, or maybe both in his case) created my ex, but I do HATE them.  Maybe some day I'll learn to just hate the illness, but not today.

[charred]

The children of pwBPD or any bad PD get it bad. My father was malignant NPD... and it took its toll on all who were around him. My exBPDgf has a son, and I have seen him have to witness his mother being horrible, saying nasty things about his father that no kid should bear. He has heard me painted black, and then seen her have near breakdowns wanting to be with me, and the net effect is he is polite, but doesn't like me and resents me hurting his mother... .  but he doesn't seem to get that she is the source of issue after issue... .  and it make me wonder how he will turn out. I think the PD's help cause more and more PDs in other people. It is sad.

I have never seen the intensity of anger/hatred that a pwBPD is capable of, in anyone else. Haven't seen as mean and cruel things done to people as what some of the pwNPD do. I haven't adequately moved away from my exBPDgf yet, or I wouldn't still be going on and on, and thinking about it, like I do on here.

[trouble11]

That's just it though.  I think we say things like the children get it bad, when in reality it's much worse, and they end up EVERY bit as broken and BPD as our ex's.  Just my 2 cents worth of angry ... .  and off topic anyway. 

[mosaicbird]

My exBPDgf has a son, and I have seen him have to witness his mother being horrible, saying nasty things about his father that no kid should bear. He has heard me painted black, and then seen her have near breakdowns wanting to be with me, and the net effect is he is polite, but doesn't like me and resents me hurting his mother... .  but he doesn't seem to get that she is the source of issue after issue... .  and it make me wonder how he will turn out.

Hmmm... .  FWIW, here's my perspective, as an adult whose mother is BPD, regarding that topic - for the most part her rages and splitting were not directed towards me, but boy did I witness it towards the men she was involved with. I know she's disordered and irrational, and that half of what she said to/about when couldn't possibly be true... but I do still resent them for hurting her and have bad feelings towards them. In part because my mother is a classic BPD Waif, and I have this innate prejudice (fair or not) against anyone who gets involved with somone that clearly vulnerable (though I don't know how she presents herself in the beginning... perhaps I just feel it should be obvious because it's obvious to me), and I feel (again, fair or not!) that they're scumbags for taking advantage of her and preying on her. A lot of this is probably subconscious learning I absorbed from her - men are untrustworthy and will only use you. But even that awareness doesn't stop the protective  kneejerk, "Someone has hurt my mother!" reaction.

Anyway... .  I hope this kid you're talking about has other role models and other people to look to for "normal" behavior... perhaps if I'd had some normal adults in my life, I would be different.

[charred]

The boy I was talking about has been with his mom since he was 3 and she divorced his dad... the dad fought for sole custody and lost, and in the process really pissed her off. She is a pwBPD, and can hold a grudge for over a decade now. I met her exH, and he seemed pretty normal to me... .  gave me some looks that make me think he felt sorry for me... .  but it might be my imagination.

I think my exBPDgf's parents are key to how she came to be disordered, her dad is a heavy drinker, non-expressive and rather stoic. Her mom is over the top religious, and small town weird... hard to describe, very much like the SNL church lady character... bit overbearing, quite judgmental, bit mental herself. They are the key people the boy has around him other than his mother. So far other than seeming badgered a lot, and subjected to very strict rules... .  he seems like he is doing pretty well.

I can say she is no waif type... .  she is aggressive and comes across as confident and in charge... .  takes a while to learn that is an act. I feel sorry for her son, and all the guys she has dated, been engaged and married to, as they have had a hard time. It isn't just me.

Lot of bad behavior, but I think the combination of extreme anger and no hint of empathy is what makes the cruelty come out. She decides you are bad... and feels justified in saying/doing anything, and the meaner it is, the more she likes it. No normal person shows glee after doing and saying some of the terrible things she has. Its clearly disordered behavior in action.

Most the time when we have broken up, she went out of her way to be as nasty as possible, to hurt me intentionally. That has been a recurring theme.

[gina louise]

my HUSBAND claimed at the end that I married him under "false pretenses"! Like he was duped, or tricked into marrying me?

and I turned into the abusive one and not HIM.

Incredible.   

If I recall HE proposed to me, chose the ring and all that! Or was I just dreaming it?

The distortions they can create and believe are... .  senseless. His emotional cruelty was beyond anything I ever experienced-ever. I wouldn't have treated a hated enemy the way he did me-much less a partner, wife, best friend.

I keep that foremost in mind... .  now that we are apart.

His peace of mind relied on the "fact" that he was able to believe it truly WAS all my doing. I think he's less able to convince himself of that now- as I have remained consistent in my behavior, as always.

I didn't lose my temper, blame him or rage at him. I didn't attack or accuse him. I still don't. I am staying neutral.

I don't text, interrogate, e-mail or call him. We have had LC about business matters pertaining to our divorce-filing taxes, and some stuff about property-mine and his-Ins cards, medical benefits.

All very businesslike. he's even tried to fish for credit or compliments from me-telling me how reasonable and what a good guy he really is!   "?" 

Not like I am asking!

He's tried to bait me , provoke me or lead me into e-mail or text conversations but I don't bite. I keep it very short. Neutral. his disorder made him loving and easily attached to me... and it made him angry and unbelievably cruel, as well.

He's a puppet for his BPD/NPD.

It's not easy... .  but it helps me 200% to stay detached. And not get sucked back to the emotionality of MY old reactions. It's only painful IF I let it be so.

GL

[TheDude]

To the original point of discussion, "cruelty", I think a better descriptor for my own experience through four break ups is "cold". ICE cold. Being more of the 'Waif-Hermit' type (such bizarre labels, IMO), her modus operandi is more passive-aggressive than demonstrably 'mean'. During our first break up, she gave me the ever-so-jibberishy, "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" line. This, just days after she totaled my vehicle, a day after two dozen mystery red roses arrived at the house, 30 bucks in the bank account (and I being 1000 miles from my hometown), and ON her 40th birthday. Wait... .  I guess that could be considered cruel, too. And cold. Ah, semantics.

Blah. Having one of those days.

[Clearmind]

I guess the last thing I am stuck on is the answer to that question... .  my ending just felt unnecessarily nasty. That's all

thanks

BB12

Borderlines are not intentionally cruel - does a 3 year understand that hitting another child on the head is cruel - No! - its impulsive and they don't know how to express it any other way.

I suspect that may not be all you are hooked on.

You wouldn't end a r/s like that, so why should she - right? You are expecting a disordered person to mirror your standards, understand her role - essentially you asking her not to be disordered.

BPD + emotional immaturity + childhood trauma + shaky/unstable attachments + triggering events (likely to be you) + maladaptive coping skills + a whole lifetime of feeling misunderstood + adapt at blame shifting because she cannot self soothe = and you wonder why she is not emotionally mature and how she cannot handle things the way you would!

My friend I feel you know the answer to this... .  you may feel rejected, you may feel discarded, you may feel humiliated, you may feel used - these are all valid because a BPD r/s hurts our core... .  

The bigger question here is how we remain stuck - its not the ending we are stuck on - it was the beginning, middle and end - the relationship in its entirety was full of push/pull and idealisation/devaluation - we had our eyes closed.

bb - remind yourself how good the beginning was - that is why the end was so bad - the r/s was set up to fail - you both got something from the r/s - difference is - she won't learn and will repeat the pattern - whereas you have the ability to heal and move onto choosing healthier partners.

[bb12]

Bit aggressive Clearmind. I'm on the leaving board not personal

Inventory. At what point we not allowed to vent?

[tailspin]

bb 

My ex was also deliberately cruel one of the last time I saw him... .  rolling his eyes, looking at his watch, and generally acting like a entitled narcissistic prick. I remember looking at him in amazement... .  I couldn't recognize him anymore; the man I once loved was gone.

To answer your question "why do they have to be deliberately cruel at the end" I think it's part of the disordered pattern for them to be cruel and to treat others they way their (in most cases) family of origin treated them.  It's what they know.  It's what feels familiar.  They project and deflect the (old and original) pain from themselves and right onto us.

You are correct... .  you represent his original trigger.  Only now... .  the anger he was unable (and is still unable) to show his mother (in most cases) was unmercifully directed at you.  BPD results in flashback memories associated with the original trauma.  Once triggered, the illness pulls them back in time and they are doomed to relive the original cruelty over and over again. Only now the roles are reversed; he is the punitive parent and you are the child who must be punished.

Cruelty masks shame, pain and anger.

Your ex's cruelty was about him and not about you.  You didn't deserve it, but then again, you didn't deserve him either.  However, I do know without a doubt you have learned much about yourself along the path of healing. Keep posting bb... .  and get rid of all the cobwebs in the attic.

tailspin

[gina louise]

tailspin,

You nailed it.

in one last rage my HUSBAND even screamed that I WAS his Mother-not his wife. 

Whoa, dude. NOT!

He was clearly out of any modicum of self control, and that was a moment of undeniable clarity and calm for me.

I saw exactly WHAT his projection had become and why he was Locked into it so fiercely.

(He hated his sweet and passive mother for not protecting him from his raging/abusive dad-but NEVER told her,as she was abused even worse than the kids were!)

I became The Mother figure for him,over time and when disregulated He became that furiously angry, aggressive kid who wanted to TELL everyone to go to Hell and never come back. But there was only me to tell!

With no other way for him to discharge those horrendous feelings, he acted out his disorder- On me.

That's the best way I know to describe it.

He seemed truly unhinged. It was terrifying display of rage. He was normally a very quiet person.

I went into another room-composed myself... and came back to him and said, "You are right, But I have a choice where your Mother did not. I will NOT take that role, and I will not remain in your presence beyond tomorrow morning. I am going to sleep now. Good night." He was completely silenced by my announcement. And amazingly, I slept well.

I left the next day, packing my stuff in my car. Came back for the rest when he was at work.

Entitled, demanding, irrational, cruel, erratic, Punishing, and totally Unforgiving.

Who needs that?

GL

[trouble11]

The boy I was talking about has been with his mom since he was 3 and she divorced his dad... the dad fought for sole custody and lost, and in the process really pissed her off.

My post was unclear and incomplete. I apologize.  The reason for my rant was this.  I don't know if my ex's mother was/is BPD or not, but his dad walked out when he was four and never looked back, thus causing the beginning and much of his abandonment problem.  Every time subsequent boyfriends and/or stepdad would leave he felt it was somehow his fault and that HE wasn't lovable.  It wasn't, of course, but that's how kids perceive things.  A healthy mother would at least try and explain things.  BPD mothers likely say things like "He didn't love us".  Older children can see instability in a parent, younger ones tend to think they did something wrong when a father figure leaves.   Anyway, that, coupled with sexual abuse by a neighbor, is what created my exBPDbf.   

[blecker]

The disorder is void of empathy and thus mercy.

To expect either in these relationships only births continued resentments.

Resentments promote continued attachment.

If we want freedom we must detach.

[Clearmind]

Bit aggressive Clearmind. I'm on the leaving board not personal

Inventory. At what point we not allowed to vent?

I apologise if you see it that way bb. You are quite within your rights to jump posts if they trigger.

It helps to see the facts of the disorder - this enables us to detach.

[bb12]

You are correct... .  you represent his original trigger.  Only now... .  the anger he was unable (and is still unable) to show his mother (in most cases) was unmercifully directed at you.  BPD results in flashback memories associated with the original trauma.  Once triggered, the illness pulls them back in time and they are doomed to relive the original cruelty over and over again. Only now the roles are reversed; he is the punitive parent and you are the child who must be punished.

Cruelty masks shame, pain and anger.

Your ex's cruelty was about him and not about you.  You didn't deserve it, but then again, you didn't deserve him either.  However, I do know without a doubt you have learned much about yourself along the path of healing. Keep posting bb... .  and get rid of all the cobwebs in the attic.

tailspin

Thanks so much Tailspin / GL

I am making great strides. Hard for me to even reach the levels of pain I was in immediately following the discard

I am happy and mostly working on my CoDa stuff now and being very conscious of my decisions and actions. Feels unnaturally good!

I already forgive my ex and can see the illness even in the fonder memories. He was very childlike through-out - a likely indication of where his emotional development stopped

The cruelty thing is really all I come back to... .  just how different he was at the end and how unnecessary it was to stick the boot in.

But you are right and I need to believe at the deepest level that it was about his stuff and not me.

I am exploring why it hurt so much and what it tapped into within me, but that is all I can do

much appreciated guys

Bb12

[bb12]

I apologise if you see it that way bb. You are quite within your rights to jump posts if they trigger.

It helps to see the facts of the disorder - this enables us to detach.

Thanks Clearmind. We're cool.

Like many of the good things about your posts... .  it probably only stung because it resonnated with me! 

i can get a bit stuck despite some fantastic recent progress. Your toddler banging on the head metaphor is excellent. I will go back to that

cheers

bb12