I'm seven months pregnant and dealing with verbal and emotional abuse

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi, I've posted a lot on the children of BPDs threads as my mom is uBPD. I'm having a rough time with my husband, he's diagnosed PTSD from child abuse. If he were a woman I have to wonder if he'd be diagnosed BPD. He is very much reminding me of my mother lately.

Anyhow, there is verbal and emotional abuse in our marriage and has been for a long time. In the summer I told him I wanted him to get therapy for his PTSD or I would leave with our baby son. He was creating a negative home environment with his moodiness and anger and the abusive way he spoke to me. I saw a divorce lawyer who basically told me the police would not take him away and the court would not order him out of our home since there was no physical abuse. Basically unless he hit me or my son he could do whatever he wanted. He didn't get help and what could I do? The mortgage is in my name and I can't leave and pay for a second home for me and my son. I feel my husband abuses me financially as he never helps pay for any bills, leaves all the mortgage costs to me. He can't keep a job because of his PTSD.

Anyhow we got fighting today because he found out I have a line of credit against the mortgage and wants me to pay off his credit card debt. I said sure I will start to pay your debt once you get some kind of income together. In the past he's witheld money from me as punishment for sticking up for myself so I'm not rushing to transfer $25k of his debt into my name. I told him I want him to cancel all his credit cards if we do that, and I want to pay his debt in portions and if he pulls any funny business with money I'm not paying any more. He flipped out and became verbally abusive again and I just had enough. I'm 7 months pregnant and I don't want to raise our kids in this environment. He blames me for all his job losses. After 10 years I'm just plain tired. He refuses to see this is a risk for me. I'm about to go on mat leave for 18 months and since I can't count on him to help financially I was counting on the line of credit. Paying all his debt would wipe it out and tank my credit score, and I need to renew the mortgage soon. He doesn't care about any of that.

Was my lawyer right? Is there nothing I can do? He just imparts a negative energy in the home, one word answers, no affection. I hate my son seeing this. He verbally abuses me, calls me names, attacks my family. Now he says my family better not come around because he "can't stand the stench" of them (really they smell fine . He ripped the cords out of my laptop and tossed it at me, threw my ipad. He's threatening to take the kids from me. I am sure not worried about that I really don't think any court is going to give him primary custody. It's the intent to hurt that bothers me. He pushed me once about 7 months ago, pushed my 7 year old niece about a year ago (I've mostly kept him away from her since then). After he threw my laptop and ipad I said he better calm down or the next step would be for me to involve the police. He said "that would be the end" (suicide threat). Seriously, will nobody help me in law enforcement? I am going to contact my employer's EFAP for advice too but maybe someone here can help. I've demanded he seek professional help again or I'm leaving but it's kind of a bluff. PS I'm in Canada.

[cleotokos]

Hi, I've posted a lot on the children of BPDs threads as my mom is uBPD. I'm having a rough time with my husband, he's diagnosed PTSD from child abuse. If he were a woman I have to wonder if he'd be diagnosed BPD. He is very much reminding me of my mother lately.

Anyhow, there is verbal and emotional abuse in our marriage and has been for a long time. In the summer I told him I wanted him to get therapy for his PTSD or I would leave with our baby son. He was creating a negative home environment with his moodiness and anger and the abusive way he spoke to me. I saw a divorce lawyer who basically told me the police would not take him away and the court would not order him out of our home since there was no physical abuse. Basically unless he hit me or my son he could do whatever he wanted. He didn't get help and what could I do? The mortgage is in my name and I can't leave and pay for a second home for me and my son. I feel my husband abuses me financially as he never helps pay for any bills, leaves all the mortgage costs to me. He can't keep a job because of his PTSD.

Anyhow we got fighting today because he found out I have a line of credit against the mortgage and wants me to pay off his credit card debt. I said sure I will start to pay your debt once you get some kind of income together. In the past he's witheld money from me as punishment for sticking up for myself so I'm not rushing to transfer $25k of his debt into my name. I told him I want him to cancel all his credit cards if we do that, and I want to pay his debt in portions and if he pulls any funny business with money I'm not paying any more. He flipped out and became verbally abusive again and I just had enough. I'm 7 months pregnant and I don't want to raise our kids in this environment. He blames me for all his job losses. After 10 years I'm just plain tired. He refuses to see this is a risk for me. I'm about to go on mat leave for 18 months and since I can't count on him to help financially I was counting on the line of credit. Paying all his debt would wipe it out and tank my credit score, and I need to renew the mortgage soon. He doesn't care about any of that.

Was my lawyer right? Is there nothing I can do? He just imparts a negative energy in the home, one word answers, no affection. I hate my son seeing this. He verbally abuses me, calls me names, attacks my family. Now he says my family better not come around because he "can't stand the stench" of them (really they smell fine . He ripped the cords out of my laptop and tossed it at me, threw my ipad. He's threatening to take the kids from me. I am sure not worried about that I really don't think any court is going to give him primary custody. It's the intent to hurt that bothers me. He pushed me once about 7 months ago, pushed my 7 year old niece about a year ago (I've mostly kept him away from her since then). After he threw my laptop and ipad I said he better calm down or the next step would be for me to involve the police. He said "that would be the end" (suicide threat). Seriously, will nobody help me in law enforcement? I am going to contact my employer's EFAP for advice too but maybe someone here can help. I've demanded he seek professional help again or I'm leaving but it's kind of a bluff. PS I'm in Canada.

[Ulysses]

I'm sorry to hear you're experiencing this.

You say it's not yet physical, but then you say he pushed you and your niece, and recently "tossed" your laptop at you.  That sounds physical.  Did you attorney know this when they gave you legal advice?

Are you being isolated from your family?  Perhaps you keep your niece from your H to protect her, but I wonder if it isolates you.

Are you able to get therapy for yourself?

[cleotokos]

Hi Ulysses, I did forget to mention the shoving to the divorce lawyer. It seemed so minor. He was angry my son was not falling asleep and wanted to put him to sleep himself (of course I was "not doing it properly" and pushed me out of the room. Of course it's wrong but at the time I didn't think of it as physical abuse, like being punched or slapped. I definitely think he's capable of it, though in 10 years he has not hit me. The laptop/ipad incident was just a couple days ago. He did destroy the hdmi and ethernet cables when he ripped them out. He was trying to intimidate me into leaving the living room, which I refused because I don't like to be given orders and told what to do. I don't know if that's the right tactic or if I should actually do as he says when he's raging out to keep myself safe? I've always felt if I give in it would teach him that raging out works, and he would get worse. I've never seen him destroy property until now.

My EFAP will be able to provide counselling and legal advice. I don't know if my husband will take care of our 1 year old so I can go though.

He has isolated me in the sense of having some kind of conflict with every one of my friends and family. I have no friends left now because it was easier to let the friendships wither away than answer tough questions from friends. He doesn't want anything to do with my family and I'm not comfortable having them to our house because god knows what he might say or how he'll treat them. But he's never said "I don't like X, you shouldn't see them anymore" or that sort of thing. When he pushed my niece and started including her in his verbal attacks on my family (ie. saying they're all trash, including her) was kind of a turning point for me. Because he's always loved and adored her and I was gutted by the things he said about her to me. I still see her just as often I just don't bring him.

[ForeverDad]

If he were a woman I have to wonder if he'd be diagnosed BPD.

BPD (or any other PD) is not a gender-based disorder.  Yes, more women seem to be diagnosed with BPD and more men seem to be diagnosed with antisocial PD.  But this does not mean he can't have BPD traits in addition to his PTSD.  Actually some people are "co-morbid" with traits of multiple disorders.

Whether the professionals diagnose him as whatever doesn't change the fact that he is displaying several common BPD traits... .high conflict, aggressive behaviors, demands, ultimatums, isolation from friends and family, etc.

Anyhow, there is verbal and emotional abuse in our marriage and has been for a long time. In the summer I told him I wanted him to get therapy for his PTSD or I would leave with our baby son.

Whether or not the court or police would issue orders for him to limit his behaviors, you do have the option to Exit the Relationship.  He can't stop that.  If he tries then probably at some level of escalation the police and court would step in.  He can't stop a divorce.  He can oppose it, slow it down but he can't stop it.  What you would need are strategies to lessen the conflict and protect yourself and your children.

By the way, most schedules for children under three years old have fathers defaulted to shorter but more frequent visits.  If there is conflict he may get less.  (And some fathers don't take all their scheduled time.)

The mortgage is in my name and I can't leave and pay for a second home for me and my son. I feel my husband abuses me financially as he never helps pay for any bills, leaves all the mortgage costs to me. He can't keep a job because of his PTSD.

Whether he can keep a job or not is his responsibility as an adult.  Boohoo for him.

Is the deed in your name only?  Don't let him con you into adding him to teh deed if he's not already on it.  Doing that would only risk making a divorce even more difficult and costly.

Anyhow we got fighting today because he found out I have a line of credit against the mortgage and wants me to pay off his credit card debt. I said sure I will start to pay your debt once you get some kind of income together. In the past he's withheld money from me as punishment for sticking up for myself so I'm not rushing to transfer $25k of his debt into my name.

Absolutely do not shift his debts onto your shoulders!  Good that you have that boundary.  The reality is that, at least at the present, you can't trust any promises he makes or concessions you require.  For example, if you assumed his $25K debt, how could you enforce your requirement that he keep working or not add more debt to his cards again?  Literally, you can't.  So don't ever give in to such demands.

He ripped the cords out of my laptop and tossed it at me, threw my ipad.

My ex would take scissors and cut the cables on my computers when raging.  I'm ashamed to admit that I would buy keyboards and mice 2 and 3 at a time.  (I'm a programmer and needed my computers for work.)  Once in one of her rages she literally threw our son's computer onto the garage floor and ruined it.  Why these people have to act out like that, I can only conclude that they want us to feel hurt and pained and stuck.  (Some who dig into the behaviors would add, "like they feel hurt and broken inside".)  But there is no excuse to do that.

Frankly, unless he gets into meaningful therapy, seriously applies the counsel in his life, perceptions, thinking and behaviors — and sticks with it long term — then you can't expect him to change.  You can do what court does, set rules and boundaries to limit his acting out.  Right now he doesn't see you as any sort of authority or empowered parent, so new rules or boundaries are likely to trigger "extinction bursts", increased demands to intimidate you into retreating into past appeasing patterns.  However, if you do decide to divorce then the court will become The Real Authority.

[cleotokos]

Hi ForeverDad, thanks for replying. He may very well have BPD, I just know that BPD is overdiagnosed in women when they often have C-PTSD and I can't help but think the reverse may be true for men, that BPD is underdiagnosed. I've often thought my brother may have BPD but all he's been diagnosed with is "Persistent Delusional Disorder". He (husband) hasn't had a whole lot of therapy so maybe it would have come out if he'd continued. He certainly does remind me of uBPDmom, I didn't realize I'd married my mother until very recently

I know he has no way to stop me from leaving, it's just that he refuses to leave, and I'm financially responsible for the house. So either I can sell it, which depending on his mood he may make difficult, or I can walk away from the house and mortgage, which is insanity. Where we live it doesn't matter if his name's on the house, all assets are split 50/50 in a divorce. His last blowup in the summer was him wanting me to put his name on the house (but not the mortgage, funny that) and me refusing.

He was demanding that I pay all his debt right now, and became verbally abusive, and that is when I put my foot down and said no we are doing it MY way where we pay a little at a time and you contribute and if you don't I won't pay any more. That's when he really escalated the verbal abuse. I feel it's just a bid for control; he wants me to do what he wants me to do because he wants me to.

The job situation is very frustrating because it is always the same, he starts thinking he is very important and underappreciated, starts telling superiors how they should do their jobs, is rude to people he perceives as being "below" him. He gets fired and it is truly always devastating for him. I feel awful for him. And I tell him it's the way he treats people and the way he talks to them but he does it over and over. His psychiatrist said he's re-enacting his relationship with his father and I believe it.

I'm very mad with him lately because he said I've ruined his life and I control him with money (but also it's my fault he doesn't work because I make it too easy with all the help I give him). I've only ever tried to help him and it made me so mad I said "oh yeah, you want to see how it feels to be controlled with money?" And that's where we are with me paying his debts. I've demanded he go to therapy again, and speak to me with respect. I feel like it's been a turning point for me. We soon will have 2 kids and I can't keep living this life. I want our family to stay together he's actually been very good with our son and these blowups are not that frequent (last one was in summer).

I also started thinking to the future and my son having a peaceful home. Husband likes to make evrything stressful by what I call "riding my ass" about trivial things. I've given up gardening because he would nag endlessly about when I was going to plant the seeds, you're not doing it, oh no it's too late, etc. etc. Making it NOT FUN for I don't know what reason. I began to think he is going to do this with my son's homework when he is in school. It's really hard to do things when someone constantly nags you like that. He likes everything to be stressful and panicky feeling. He's done it to me when I've taken classes and I can't blame him for me failing calculus but he sure wasn't helping. I managed to complete a degree before I met him so it's not like I need someone looking over my shoulder like that. I don't think that's helpful to anyone.

He must change his thinking from being the victim all the time. According to him it's never his fault, every body else is responsible for his failings and misfortune. He won't listen to me when I say he has to take responsibility for his own behaviour. I don't know if this will get him into therapy, I might actually have to make good on my threats to leave for that to happen which is sad for our family.

[ForeverDad]

For therapy to work long term he has to do it for himself, not for you or anyone else.  It would mean a huge change in his thinking and perceptions, and considering that people with BPD have heightened Denial and Blame Shifting issues, it's monumental for them.

Think of something you fear more than anything else.  Imagine you're deathly afraid of sharks but to recover in therapy you have to pet great white sharks.  Yeah, near impossible, right?  Well, I'm guessing, but it's probably kind of like that for them, they can't bear to accept responsibility for their perceptions no matter how you try to logic or reason about it.  They'd rather rewrite history and demand compliance than change for the better.

There are some who do decide to seek recovery.  And yes, our actions may move a spouse to hit bottom and climb out.  But you can't count on your spouse to be one of those.  Maybe he will, maybe he won't, the fact remains you have to do what you have to do, whether he decides to change or not.  (I separated and divorced a dozen years ago.  Eventually even the court recommended she get therapy but didn't order it.  She still says she hates me.)  Rather than trying to play Defense or Holding Action as you've done in the past, you have to get a better game strategy and in competitive sports each team knows that playing Offense gets more goals, runs, whatever than playing Defense.

Another perspective... .you can make a list of what you want him to do and another list of what you need to do.  Guess which one is not in your power to accomplish and which one is.

[Ulysses]

cleotokos, I would like to encourage you to not let yourself get isolated.

He has isolated me in the sense of having some kind of conflict with every one of my friends and family. I have no friends left now because it was easier to let the friendships wither away than answer tough questions from friends. He doesn't want anything to do with my family and I'm not comfortable having them to our house because god knows what he might say or how he'll treat them. But he's never said "I don't like X, you shouldn't see them anymore" or that sort of thing.

Sometimes intelligent, charismatic abusers (not labeling him as an abuser, just sloppily writing a sentence) don't need to explicitly forbid you from seeing someone or doing something.  They can play a mind game and insinuate or indirectly lead you to make the conclusion on your own.  And it can be partly our own personalities that allow this to happen (or make it easy for someone to lead us down such a road).  I didn't figure this out until I started T and MC.  I want to encourage you to reach out to friends and family, if they are supportive of you and your son. 

When you say you don't want to answer tough questions - is that because you feel ashamed about him?  About staying with him and tolerating things he does?  Do you feel like you need to protect him?

When you say because, "... .God knows what he might say or how he'll treat them."  It wonder if you're protecting him?  Why wouldn't you want others to see how he truly is?  Or at least, see other sides of him than what he shows to the public.  It could be enlightening to you to see how others respond to him.

I spent quite some time running frantic to please my exH, and I didn't even realize what was going on.  Once I did, I could make more informed choices and boy, did I feel better about myself, and my health improved.  I also spent time worrying about what others would think of my exH, and when I stopped "covering" for him, and could take a step back and watch as if from a distance his sometimes bizarre behavior, it was freeing.  I could see it was odd and that it didn't reflect on me one way or another.  It was his behavior, his choices, and his consequences to deal with.

I really feel for you, with one young child and another on the way so soon.  You're right to think things through carefully and plan for your and your children's future.

If I were you I would not move out of the house and leave him in it.  If you prefer to separate, talk to a lawyer to see if there's a way you can require that he leave the house.  It's your house, and he's the one getting physical. 

[ForeverDad]

When you say you don't want to answer tough questions - is that because you feel ashamed about him?  About staying with him and tolerating things he does?  Do you feel like you need to protect him?

I recall when my ex used to blamefests and interrogations that lasted for hours into the wee hours of the morning... ."We're going to fix this now or else!"  You don't have to submit to one sided experiences like that.  Maybe you didn't have it that blatant, maybe it was more subtle and manipulative for you, but overall the goal is to keep you off balance, always retreating from practical solutions which he of course didn't want unless they were his way.  Hard to do now, but in time as you gain knowledge, skills and sheer determination it will get better.

[Ulysses]

ForeverDad, I agree with your statement about not having to fix everything and get everything settled in one conversation, especially when it occurs late at night.  I think that's such a good reminder!

I perhaps misread cleotokos' original statement.  I thought she said she didn't want to answer tough questions from friends regarding her partner's behavior.  I wondered if she felt ashamed about or wanted to cover for her partner's behavior.

[cleotokos]

When you say you don't want to answer tough questions - is that because you feel ashamed about him?  About staying with him and tolerating things he does?  Do you feel like you need to protect him?

I have a few reasons for doing so. I have felt judged in the past, had friends look at me like "why don't you leave him?" One friend acted like I betrayed her by getting back together with him. And I understand it is hard to watch someone you care about return to a situation that is harmful. It felt too complicated and too much work to "manage" the emotions of everyone around me. I've become a private person not telling friends/family about my "real" life.

I also struggle with feeling responsible for the words and actions of others. I come from a dysfunctional family myself with uBPD mom, uNPD stepfather, uNPD stepmother, enDad. I remember as a kid another kid asking "why does your mom act that way?" I don't know! I always felt so humiliated by her public rages and her rudeness and anger.

I don't want my husband to say anything that would hurt my family. Despite their dysfunction I do care about them. My stepsister had an interaction with my husband and reamed me out over text about it (she was actually in the wrong - I won't get into her issues here but she is very controlling and has anxiety and a temper).

He's often right about my family, he just goes so far overboard. Well that's my opinion. Trivial conflicts are like WW3 with him and there's no forgiveness. I've observed that with his FOO so I see where he gets it. Whereas in my family there is probably too much forgiveness, with the more dysfunctional members expecting to be forgiven without giving apologies, explanations, changing behaviours etc.

ForeverDad you are right about him having to desire change on his own. I know he says he has no problem but I really don't think he believes that. I'm hoping for our children he might kick it up a notch with how hard he tries. I would not normally try to force someone into professional help but feel I have to try for our children, because it's been 10 years and he's not doing it on his own. I had this backfire with uBPDmom a few years ago but he is much more aware that he has a problem than she is. I realize I've been holding onto a fantasy of him changing... .if only he'd just fix this one thing, he'd be such a great partner! It's not easy for me to give up hope and make an exit plan for myself.

Ulysses I think you're right about him using this as a way to isolate. I can't believe it didn't occur to me. I think he knows it would be wrong to tell me I can't see my family so instead he uses petty grudges against them to make things difficult.

[ForeverDad]

I have felt judged in the past, had friends look at me like "why don't you leave him?" One friend acted like I betrayed her by getting back together with him. And I understand it is hard to watch someone you care about return to a situation that is harmful. It felt too complicated and too much work to "manage" the emotions of everyone around me. I've become a private person not telling friends/family about my "real" life.

My ex drove away friends and family.  Toward the end she started suspecting anyone and everyone to be "probably" child abusers.  Yes, her words.  With fewer people around due to her forcing isolation, sur enough, she started looking at me sideways.  I could see the wheels turning, she was starting to imagine me as a child abuser too.  We had a preschooler.  Oh, oh.  Well, I finally called the police.  At first the police seemed to side with her claims about how bad I was, one of the officers asked me to hand over our son (quietly sobbing in my arms) to his mother and "step away".  He started shrieking and clinging closer to me, like a tree frog on a tree.  The officer was surprised, stared for a long moment, said "work it out" and they left.  Later when I got a lawyer, a former policeman, he told me the policy is to always drive away with one of the parents, that is, the father.  Women are presumed victims by law (Violence Against Women Act, USA) and she postured well as a victim, too bad for her our son saved me that day.

Back to my story, the next officer I met told me not to feel sorry for her, he'd seen many cases where the spouse felt sorry, listened to empty promises to behave better and withdrew their statements.  He didn't want me to be another statistic, going right back into the dysfunctional and unhealthy relationship.  Over time I've commented to others that us deciding to get and keep our lives safe will get the professionals to work harder for us.  They get bummed with couples who use court as a revolving door over and over.  Does that perspective make sense to you?  As long as you don't try to make your life substantively better, it will be hard to get others to fight for you too.

Oh, oh.  I just remembered why I started writing all this.  My spouse was gone only a day or two and my brother and his wife came over for a visit.  They hadn't been around for a quite a while though they lived nearby, she had made them feel uncomfortable and unwelcome.  I don't recall much being said but their visit spoke volumes.  I think you too have some friends and family who will support you once they know you've decided to set boundaries and rules for yourself.  He may still be in your life if you two share children but firm boundaries you set for yourself will keep the crazy and pressure at a distance, well, mostly.

It's been hard on me too.  That was a dozen years ago and I still haven't bounced back like I should have.  (I'm by nature a quiet person.)  But understand they care about you.  Give them a chance and they'll support you.  Yes, it's hard to get out of the quagmire of self-defeating emotions but It is Worth The Cost!

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi cleotokos, I wanted to write a quick note. I notice some things similar to my experience here. It was helpful for me to zoom out, look at the big picture, to do what WW said, make a list of what I need to do. There's a diagram that helped me do that. It was an eye opener for me, but also provided clarity! My pregnancy fog turned to mommy brain and I discovered this while I was still nursing. It's called the Power and Control Wheel. My uBPDh has done a few things in each category. From that point I saw I needed to reach out to qualified people, to not stay isolated. And it helped me see I needed to at least sell things on eBay, and I did that plus started on my masters online. Eventually, I won't be financially dependent.

Blessings,
Dig

[Ulysses]

Cleotokos, I admire you for taking time to carefully consider all of your options and not rush into a decision or action.  That's important with children.

I want to echo what others have said here.  Your H likely will have effective therapy only if he wants the help.  My experience included a MC telling me that IF my then H decided to get treatment (a huge IF), it would take him "decades" before he would "get better." 

I think you're prudent to try for the best and also to plan for your financial independence.

I also hope you are able to reach out to your family and friends, so that you don't become isolated.

[OddWalnut]

So much of the verbal and emotional abuse pattern felt familiar to me.

In the last couple of weeks, I've started seeking help from domestic violence organizations.  I too have "only" been verbally abused.  One hotline counselor I spoke to was very helpful in encouraging me to identify more solutions for protecting myself than I might have come up with on my own.  I also believe that a decent domestic violence attorney (and many organizations will help you find one to talk to for free) will tell you that you do have grounds to get him out.  Pushing, throwing things, breaking things, and threats all count (I was told this by a former domestic violence prosecutor).  You think the courts want someone doing those things around an infant?  You may find you have more power here than you think.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear Cleo-
I'm so so sorry you're going through this pain when you should be enjoying this pregnancy and joyously planning for the arrival of your new baby.  You really do sound like you have a pretty balanced outlook, but I want to reinforce what someone else said... .pushing and shoving ARE physical abuse.  Throwing things at you IS physical abuse - you may just be pretty agile and able to move like a jackrabbit to avoid being hit by the "missile". 

I also want to maybe point out something about your home.  In many states, (in the U.S.), if he is not on the deed and not on the mortgage; and he has NOT been contributing cash toward payments, there is a good chance you may NOT have to split proceeds with him in the event of a sale.  Real estate does not necessarily automatically become a joint marital asset.  So if possible, keep holding your ground and please do NOT add his name to the title.  If he contributed toward the down payment, you may need to reimburse for that, but it sounds like he's essentially living rent-free, right?

And as another member stated, please do NOT, under any circumstances, transfer his debt to your name or place it on your mortgage line of credit.  If you do this, he'll just run up his debt again.

I guess the bottom line is, if you decide to move your life in a different direction, you will make the necessary financial sacrifices to "buy" your freedom; and they may not be as steep as you think.

I also want to join the others in encouraging you to revive friendships and maintain contact with family members.  It is vital to retain (or regain) some sense of normalcy when we live within these relationships.  Your interactions with friends and family don't need to be centered on the abuse you're enduring, but it is important for those close to you to be informed about your situation.  I have friends and family who constantly judge the "wisdom" of my staying engaged in this relationship.  But there are a myriad of other topics in the world to discuss; and I sure do need the diversion!

Please take good care of yourself.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes