Part 3: Help me stay grounded in sanity over filing.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Mod Note:  this thread was split from Part 2 here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338809.0;all


Yes, she was served divorce papers.  My lawyer also submitted a parenting plan and we are working on lining up mediation.  I have set up my apartment to host my kids.  They are getting counseling right now. I've told her that once we have a court ordered plan outlining when I will see the kids, I will put the divorce on hold, indefinitely.

The fact is, if recovery is going to happen, it will take a long time.  I've had two counselors tell me this.  Nothing was getting better while I was at the house.  Once I finally left, she found out I was serious and that there is a limit to what she can do.  I should have left earlier.  Based on counseling and lots of reading, this would be a very long road to recovery, if we make it there.  I don't want to put my kids or my job on hold for any length of time, any longer.  It has been long enough.  

I know the risk, is that working on custody is an adversarial process.  I understand it could make things worse.  I guess I'm just not sure exactly what the right path to take is, but I'm prepared to leave my marriage at this point.  I know a lot of people have asked if things were good and I've said yes, but they weren't as good they should be.  Meaning, we got a long.  I loved having her as my wife, we were friends and lovers.  However, I had to be separated from my family.  My family has been hurt for a long time and they are greatly distanced from my kids.  When I was at my Grandmother's funeral last year, one of my sons was surprised to know I had a brother.  During this separation in my marriage, I have reconnected with my family and realized how much fun they are.  I regret all the time they lost out with my kids, the time I lost out with them, and the pain they have been put through. Yes, there were good times in our marriage.  If BPD, is what's causing these issues, it was, somehow accidentally, under control at one point.  But I had to sacrifice quite a lot to keep it that way only to have her turn on me like she did.  It will be so hard to trust that she won't do it again, for quite a long time.

I know this is not what I'm facing, and that at any point you can change directions, I will say, if you could give me the choice of two pills.  The red one, I stay in my marriage and there is a 50% I will endure another year like I have for the past year sometime while my kids are still in the house, or I take the blue pill and I'm never in another relationship again.  I'll take the blue pill.  FormFlier, you have pointed out several times that is not what real life is.  I can change my mind and choose a different path at any time.  I'd rather work on my relationship with my kids and keeping my job and later choose to save my marriage if it feels like a possibility.  

I'm a data analyst in my day job.  So, if anyone else thinks in terms of numbers and probability, this will make sense.  If you don't, you can just stop reading.

If I were to try and quantify outcomes, where's what I think it would look like.

• Option 1 - Put marriage as top priority in trying to save it: 15%-25% probability of saving it because she needs a lot of individual work to grow and adhering to boundaries. During that time, I fear that my work will continue to suffer and my relationship with my kids will continue to suffer, putting the probability that I will get back on track at work at 50% and raising the probability that I get in trouble at work for lack of productivity, or greatly take a loss to my reputation at 60%.
   Also, the continued lack of relationship with my kids putting me at a 65% probability of irreparable damage to our relationship.
• Option 2 - Focus on legal framework for separation and focus on kids and work: I believe there would be a 75% probability that I will get back on track at work.  I believe there will be a 70% probability that I can repair my relationship with my kids over the next 6 months, and a 20% probability of irreparable damage to our relationship.  The probability of saving my marriage will still be at 15%-25% based on the conflicting outcomes of self growth vs. adversarial custody process.

Obviously all these probabilities are extremely subjective, but trying to weigh outcomes in this way is what is giving me clarity, even if the margin of error could be way off.

I guess that's why earlier in the thread, I was so set on her admitting what she did wrong and clearly taking responsibility for her actions.  If she did that it would be a clear signal to me that things could be improved and would move the probabilities around.  I feel improving my relationship with my kids would be greatly enhanced with saving my marriage.  I just don't have much hope that it is savable and don't want to cause any more damage to my relationship with my kids or my productivity at work.  Financially, divorced life will already be hard.  It will be much harder if I lose my job.

[Wilkinson]

Mod Note:  this thread was split from Part 2 here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338809.0;all


Yes, she was served divorce papers.  My lawyer also submitted a parenting plan and we are working on lining up mediation.  I have set up my apartment to host my kids.  They are getting counseling right now. I've told her that once we have a court ordered plan outlining when I will see the kids, I will put the divorce on hold, indefinitely.

The fact is, if recovery is going to happen, it will take a long time.  I've had two counselors tell me this.  Nothing was getting better while I was at the house.  Once I finally left, she found out I was serious and that there is a limit to what she can do.  I should have left earlier.  Based on counseling and lots of reading, this would be a very long road to recovery, if we make it there.  I don't want to put my kids or my job on hold for any length of time, any longer.  It has been long enough.  

I know the risk, is that working on custody is an adversarial process.  I understand it could make things worse.  I guess I'm just not sure exactly what the right path to take is, but I'm prepared to leave my marriage at this point.  I know a lot of people have asked if things were good and I've said yes, but they weren't as good they should be.  Meaning, we got a long.  I loved having her as my wife, we were friends and lovers.  However, I had to be separated from my family.  My family has been hurt for a long time and they are greatly distanced from my kids.  When I was at my Grandmother's funeral last year, one of my sons was surprised to know I had a brother.  During this separation in my marriage, I have reconnected with my family and realized how much fun they are.  I regret all the time they lost out with my kids, the time I lost out with them, and the pain they have been put through. Yes, there were good times in our marriage.  If BPD, is what's causing these issues, it was, somehow accidentally, under control at one point.  But I had to sacrifice quite a lot to keep it that way only to have her turn on me like she did.  It will be so hard to trust that she won't do it again, for quite a long time.

I know this is not what I'm facing, and that at any point you can change directions, I will say, if you could give me the choice of two pills.  The red one, I stay in my marriage and there is a 50% I will endure another year like I have for the past year sometime while my kids are still in the house, or I take the blue pill and I'm never in another relationship again.  I'll take the blue pill.  FormFlier, you have pointed out several times that is not what real life is.  I can change my mind and choose a different path at any time.  I'd rather work on my relationship with my kids and keeping my job and later choose to save my marriage if it feels like a possibility.  

I'm a data analyst in my day job.  So, if anyone else thinks in terms of numbers and probability, this will make sense.  If you don't, you can just stop reading.

If I were to try and quantify outcomes, where's what I think it would look like.

• Option 1 - Put marriage as top priority in trying to save it: 15%-25% probability of saving it because she needs a lot of individual work to grow and adhering to boundaries. During that time, I fear that my work will continue to suffer and my relationship with my kids will continue to suffer, putting the probability that I will get back on track at work at 50% and raising the probability that I get in trouble at work for lack of productivity, or greatly take a loss to my reputation at 60%.
   Also, the continued lack of relationship with my kids putting me at a 65% probability of irreparable damage to our relationship.
• Option 2 - Focus on legal framework for separation and focus on kids and work: I believe there would be a 75% probability that I will get back on track at work.  I believe there will be a 70% probability that I can repair my relationship with my kids over the next 6 months, and a 20% probability of irreparable damage to our relationship.  The probability of saving my marriage will still be at 15%-25% based on the conflicting outcomes of self growth vs. adversarial custody process.

Obviously all these probabilities are extremely subjective, but trying to weigh outcomes in this way is what is giving me clarity, even if the margin of error could be way off.

I guess that's why earlier in the thread, I was so set on her admitting what she did wrong and clearly taking responsibility for her actions.  If she did that it would be a clear signal to me that things could be improved and would move the probabilities around.  I feel improving my relationship with my kids would be greatly enhanced with saving my marriage.  I just don't have much hope that it is savable and don't want to cause any more damage to my relationship with my kids or my productivity at work.  Financially, divorced life will already be hard.  It will be much harder if I lose my job.

[formflier]

Equations and excel..data analysis.

I recently finished my MBA, so you can imagine that "big data" is on my mind.

Here is what I think you are perhaps missing or lacking understanding in your equation.

With a good T in place your chances of a better outcome increase "exponentially".

A good joint "family therapist" (someone to help you communicate but whose focus is on the family unit) will give you an exponentially better chance of a parenting schedule that supports relationships healing than strictly sticking to court and adversarial.

Stick with the equation/excel mentality.

Your wife has filled in some of the equation.  She wants something joint.  Fill in your part of the equation and hit enter...see what the result is.

What I'm hearing is "I don't feel comfortable filling out the equation and giving her an answer now"

Please DO NOT hear me say court ordered is bad.  If you read my own story there was a time when I wanted m wife to have to "comply" with outside forces.  She didn't like it...but it helped her and me.

DO NOT drop the divorce action/custody.

Listen...you may send her the result of the equation and she may say no..or change her part..or whatever.  Then you'll know and delete that page from excel or at least move it to the background until it becomes relevant again.

I get it..you have way to many excel pages open and begging for your attention right now.

I'm suggesting you hit enter on the joint counseling thing...and see if it will want more of your time...or if you can put it away.  

Wouldn't you want to know the "actual data"..vice "fearing" what that data may be?

Hope the analogy works.  Seriously...exponential.

Best,

FF

[Wilkinson]

I think you have some good points, but all of them have given me a little heart burn.  I think, the one thing you finally said or that finally resonated with me to give me some insight as to why I have struggled with your suggestions is this one.

With a good T in place your chances of a better outcome increase "exponentially".

That makes a lot of sense.  Did you have a good T?  Because I could totally see how that would change your outcome.

My experience was with a bad T.  We have seen two in the last year.  The first one, I thought was decent.  Shortly after she hit me a few times, and I told him about it, he started getting on her about her reactions.  That's when she dropped counseling and forced me to stop seeing him.

Three months later, she scheduled us to see a Psychologist.  She claimed a PhD would work better than a therapist.  However, she picked one that didn't like to label things as abuse because he felt it gives the other person license to not work on the marriage. He felt even in abusive relationships, both people need to work on the relationship. 

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but in abusive situations it is not equal work towards the relationship.  Based on education, reading, counseling, and experience, if abuse is present, the focus of therapy should be on how the abuser needs to heal themselves and how the abusee heals them self and can understand and enforce appropriate boundaries.  Only then, can they come back and work on the marriage.

However, this Psychologist seemed to believe that I had just as much responsibility in her behavior as she did.  It felt like he thought I had the responsibility of not making her upset.  I also don't think his own life experience was helping him in our situation.  I think when couples have regular trouble and need a T, he is probably great.  There are a lot of people that sing his praises, but I think abuse is not something he's equipped for.  I posted this on another thread, but he told me a story of how he tried to help a couple where the wife was bruising the husband and it fell apart.  (I still don't know what the point of the story was, someone suggested on the thread that maybe it was that if I stick around, to continue to expect the behavior I'm getting).  He tried to connect with me as being a forgiving husband by telling me how his wife onetime used the F-word with him in an argument, probably 8 years ago and she never did apologize for it.  He acted really put out by it, but as a husband, we sometimes don't get apologies, and have to move on.  I don't remember what I said, but I clearly remember my thoughts,

"REALLY?  That's the worst you can think of is that your wife used the F-word with you in anger?  My 12 recently asked me if he could watch an R rated move, and justified it that he basically witnesses R rated conversations at home.  My wife has hit, berated, broke my stuff, and kicked my out and I'm supposed to treat it like the one time your wife used the F-word?"

So, yeah I think having a good T can make a world of difference. I also thinking having a bad T can make equally as bad of a difference.  We have already regressed by a bad T.  She continues to see this same bad T.  I have tried suggesting that she see a different one.  One my T has suggested, but she argues that she is not abusive and that I searched out a T focused on abuse so I could easily label her as an abuser.  She also does not want to see a different T because she says that even if she agreed with me, she can't incriminate herself in any abuse for the possible divorce, by admitting to abuse.

So, I have become extremely nervous about counseling.  I have gone to a support group for people who are or were in abusive relationships and heard others speak of bad counseling.  I guess that's why I'm so scared to give her another chance in counseling.  When I was blaming myself for her behavior, I tried doing a lot of reading, counseling, mentorship, and work to improve myself.  From looking at all the books out there, it seems that there is a plethora of advice on how men should improve to help the marriage. 

There's a good chance I might be wrong on this, but it felt like there's a disproportionate amount of information at helping men improve themselves to help a marriage versus women improving themselves to improve a marriage.  Now, it could very well be that statistically, men ARE more likely to cause problems in a marriage than women.  If a T takes that position the majority of the time, his or her practice will be fine because they will be right the majority of the time.  People just want a T to have a good track record.  But I'm an individual, who is greatly impacted by the T's method and if it doesn't work for us, I don't care that it worked for 70% of the others.   His track record doesn't mean anything if it's the wrong one for our situation.  Seeing this guy has only made things worse.  She has told people, "We saw [Psychologist] and couldn't save our marriage.  [Wilkinson] didn't like him and stopped going".  According to her, people have responded with, "Well, if [Psychologist] couldn't help your husband, there probably isn't anyone who can."  Just because he's had a good track record of saving marriages by working on the husband.

[formflier]

So...you've had two different ones..right?

I've had...5-10.  Granted there were several moves in there.  I'd have to think about it for a while.

I've been seeing a PhD level Psychologist for several years now.  She has had enough joint and individual sessions with my wife that she can many times (most) predict exactly what my wife will say or do when X happens.

Seriously...it's freaky, but invaluable for me.

Even if all you get out of this is an individual person that "gets" you and works well with you...that is gold...GOLD for improving your relationship with you kids.

I've got 8 of them.  As a pragmatic thing...I can pay for lots of therapy for me now and hopefully less for them later...or I could walk away from this thing and 8 lives would be much worse off because of it.

I have been ready to divorce several times and each time my wife "blinked"...and thankfully chose a better path.

You are absolutely right that you need a T that will be a good fit..AND your level of stuff is not for beginners.

My P is in her early 60s...been doing this a long time.  

Listen...your wife may walk away, say she didn't say that (go to counseling) or any of that.  

I would likely say that your best way forward is.

1.  Work on kids relationships...and family first.
2.  Once some goodwill has been built up then work on "the marriage".

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

Bottom line, I would say...

1. Make sure there are Ts set up for her, for you, for kids, and for family. Once stabilized there, research couples therapist with experience in personality disorders.

2. Continue with getting the visitation agreement/temp orders in place. When that is satisfactory, make sure your L knows you will DELAY further divorce action, not dismiss, while you assess the outcome of work done on the marriage. Your L will know how to delay until you give the "go ahead." I

3. Take care of yourself. Give yourself self-confidence and a sense of accomplish at work that can carry into your family interactions.

Gagrl

[worriedStepmom]

I'm having a hard time with the recommendations for further counseling to a man who has been physically abused.

I haven't seen anyone advocate here that a woman who is being hit by her disordered husband and/or who is being barred from the house should attempt marital counseling.  We tell her to contact her local domestic violence shelter, legally extricate herself and the kids ASAP, and get counseling to help deal with the personal issues that cause a person to choose to stay in a physically abusive relationship for so long.

In this situation, Wilkinson has been hit by his wife.  He has been thrown out of the house and/or refused entry multiple times.  To me, this seems to be an equivalent situation - an abusive marriage to a woman who refuses to acknowledge that she is physically abusive.  The children have witnessed the abuse. The only difference I've noticed is the gender reversal.

What am I missing?

[I'm a data analyst too, Wilkinson!  I think your estimates for coming out of this with a good marriage may be exaggerated, in either scenario.]

[GaGrl]

I was coming at the counseling scenario from Wilkinson's own statement that his wife is now asking for him to dismiss any divorce action while they work on their marriage, and W's indication that he is considering it an option.

[formflier]

Please don't hear me saying that anyone should be/would be silent about what has happened in a relationship.

I'm not advocating that counseling/therapy continue regardless of what happens.

I AM advocating that since the pwBPD has brought it up (but really if anyone brings it up)...there is only one way to know if the offer is serious or if anything good can come of it.  Give it a try (with appropriate wisdom).

There are children involved AND the change for the worse in the marriage is "relatively recent".  So...there WILL BE a continuing relationship of some kind for many years to come.

The level of  issues in the home are such that it is unlikely that one party or the other will get "full custody" (completely push the other aside)...so...how is this going to work?

If there is a pathway to reduce conflict and increase cooperation...that seems like a good step (to at least see it's a real path).

If there is a pathway that can improve communications...again good step.

If the situation were "flipped" and the sexes were flipped...I can't imagine giving much different advice to a woman.

This is not "in the moment" advice where abuse is imminent or there is a debate about calling 911..going to a shelter or any of that.

This is figuring out how two people that will have to work with each other for many years to come...how can conflict be reduced.

Last:  My thoughts are aligned with GaGrl.  Legal processes continue and get structure to the situation.

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

With a good T in place your chances of a better outcome increase "exponentially".

That makes a lot of sense... My experience was with a bad T.  The first one started getting on her about her reactions.  That's when she dropped counseling and forced me to stop seeing him...
Three months later, she she picked one...

That was not your failure.  She chose the second professional because the first one was able to discern the issues and address them.  She would have kept switching therapists until she found one who was either clueless, gullible or not experienced enough to address the core issues.

Also, you could have continued with the first therapist (on a personal basis).  You weren't forced to drop him, it was probably spouse's demand or ultimatum.  You failed to make an appropriate boundary, "I like this therapist.  You may want a different therapist, fine, but you can't control who I choose for my personal counseling."  See my experience below.

I had not yet separated (that was a few months later) when I tried marital counseling.  I made a special effort to find a local female psychologist with a degree.  My then-spouse refused to attend unless she could sit in and 'support' MY counseling.  (Yes, total Denial and Blame Shifting.)  Fortunately the site director refused that and so I went ahead and had personal counseling.  I had 3 sessions, I spilled my guts about all I had experienced.  Guess what?  The T spent the 3 sessions solely on asking FOO matters - Family Of Origin.  I figure most people have some level of FOO issues.  But for NO advice on my spouse's behaviors?  No comments that my spouse could have a Personality Disorder?  (A few months later I learned about "personality dysfunctions" while seeking help from a local hospital's psychiatry department.  That was finally my light bulb moment.)

(I don't view counseling as strictly identical to therapy.  Many see counseling as aid for situational issues and therapy as aid with internal or core issues.  On this peer support site we don't make strict demands for which way to describe the professionals.  I think.)

Now, it could very well be that statistically, men ARE more likely to cause problems in a marriage than women.

Actually studies have revealed that the typical "men are the abusers" perception is wrong.  In the US the "violence Against Women Act" should have been more truthfully named without gender bias "Violence Against Domestic Partners Act".  Yes, men are usually stronger and can inflict more physical harm but when discounting whether it was physical versus emotional harm, the gender difference is just about equal.  There are threads here describing that one's GENDER does NOT determine who "cause problems".

My thought?  If you are facing determined obstruction or conflict despite prior attempts to resolve this in therapy, then your Option 2 is better.  Why?  It gets you to a temp order (and defensible boundaries) sooner.  Your Option 1 would leave you exposed longer to the continued whims and obstructions of a person who cares about self, much less about the children and nothing about you.

Note that I'm not contradicting what others have commented.  My posts usually reflect the legal approaches as a priority.  Other responses may be focused on how you rebuild the relationship with the kids, or the (less likely to succeed) retry of a therapy approach again.  Perhaps you can ponder both aspects and find a blended approach that might work well for you?

[Wilkinson]

Also, you could have continued with the first therapist (on a personal basis).  You weren't forced to drop him, it was probably spouse's demand or ultimatum.  You failed to make an appropriate boundary, "I like this therapist.  You may want a different therapist, fine, but you can't control who I choose for my personal counseling."  See my experience below.

I did continue to see that therapist for more sessions, but yes, she did give me an ultimatum.  I started to see another therapist a few months later and she also demanded I stop with that one.  Yes, I did fail to make an appropriate boundary.  

So, in thinking of those two past situations where she demanded I stop seeing the therapists, the podcast link MeandThee29 sent earlier in this thread, I've come to the conclusion that it is too early for counseling.  I've said we had a good marriage for most of our 17 year marriage.  When I look back on that, it is probably because I appeased her.  She always had a wrath that I wanted to avoid.  So when I didn't agree with something I often kept quiet because it was easier to just do something I didn't want to do than experience her wrath.  In between she was very loving.  Logistically, she has done a phenomenal job of taking care of our kids and running the logistics of our family.  I also had to cut ties with my FOO to make my marriage work.  Looking back on it, those are some pretty hefty qualifiers to a happy marriage that I guess I was just blind to.  It was this past year where she didn't have those loving moments in between that finally wok me up.

Thinking back to no holding the boundaries for therapists, the details are a good example of why I'm nervous to work with her.  In both of those specific incidences, she wore me out by continuing to push until I caved.  For the second therapist, she finally got me to call the therapist, in front of her, to sever the relationship, but coming to my work and badgering me until I gave up.  When I've tried to maintain boundaries that she doesn't like, she often brings in the kids.  She'll do something that affects them negatively until I give in.  Like load them all in the car and leave the house because I refuse to leave.  She once told our daughter that her friend had to leave because I wouldn't hand my phone over to her.

The thread began with me struggling because I crossed a line I never thought I'd cross by filing for divorce and I was really struggling, but after all the thoughtful discussion and reflection, It was the only option I had left.  I had voiced that I could not take this behavior.  I tried reaching out to my community that things were not right, but no one believed me because if you aren't in our house, she seems like a very pleasant and loving person.  I've seen how she painted my family to others, so I know her ability to control the narrative.  She is the social coordinator for our house.  All the communication originates and comes through her.  I've continued to have self doubt on my actions because my entire community either doesn't believe me or thinks I'm taking things too far, but I sort of understand when they only see the version of my wife that she shares with them and that she communicates with them far more than I do.

Trying to put to words why I don't want to do therapy with her right now comes down to the fact that she is so good at controlling the narrative.  I have no doubt that she will change her behavior for a time period, but the underlying motives and thought patterns will stay the same.  I'm scared that the therapist will be fooled by her change in behavior, but not realize that all she did was change her method and then I have a therapist urging me to get back into the same cycle I've been trying to escape from.  I'm worried she'll manipulate me in therapy to where my gut is screaming things aren't different, she's just playing along so that if I don't come back I look like a deadbeat husband.  Once I give in, it will go back to normal.  Or worse, she'll have learned her lesson about being extreme and go back to a cycle where as long as I appease and avoid her wrath, I think I'm in a happy marriage.

[formflier]

Trying to put to words why I don't want to do therapy with her right now comes down to the fact that she is so good at controlling the narrative.  

I would encourage you to go back to the first therapist...and start up again.  

When you read what comes next...please think through the word "responsibility" and be conscious not to use (allow in) the word blame.

I would hope after some T..some reflection and self care...that you can make decisions about your relationship with your wife (or ex) based on you...and not her.

Think about this for a bit.  Where are boundaries...  Who do you allow to run your life and make decisions for you?

I'm not saying this is easy with a boundary buster like your wife...I'm sure it's not.  We're all sure.

Yet the truth remains there is only 1 person in charge of what's inside your boundaries.  It's up to you to allow others in or not.  

What will you life be like if after a period of time she "reacts" to you..vice you "reacting" to her?    I think this question applies regardless of the status of your marriage.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

Trying to put to words why I don't want to do therapy with her right now comes down to the fact that she is so good at controlling the narrative.

I don't know if this is exactly what you're describing here .. my ex controlled the narrative, too.

Until I learned a couple of things to pay attention to. People who are manipulative like to switch to new topics. If you start on something and want to stick to it, you just keep referring back to what issue you raised. It can sound pretty ridiculous to do this but often the person trying to manipulate you doesn't think so because all they hear is, "That one didn't work, try another."

In Sheep's Clothing is the book I think where I learned that. There is also a social science theory about track switching or something like that. It is used to demonstrate the root of conflict and is apparently used by marriage counselors as a way to keep couples focused on one topic. Usually the higher conflict spouse will track switch in order to avoid drilling down on the item that is most uncomfortable to discuss.

[formflier]

I have a couple phrases that focus them back

"how does that relate to x?" 

"That's interesting, right now we need to focus on x"

"I can only do one topic at a time, let's finish x first"

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

I think this is why nons often feel "kitchen sinked" -- that the pwBPD throws every issue and every past "offense" at them even if it wasn't the original topic. It is desperate attempts to reflect from the uncomfortable topic at hand.