Meeting tomorrow. I really want to get this right

[La Carotte]

I've been posting on the Leaving board because there are times when I absolutely believe that this is the only way to go to save myself from what has been, for a long time, a very difficult and unhealthy relationship.

But the truth is that I'm not entirely ready to throw in the towel yet, despite everything, I want to give it one more shot. I feel that I'm very very close to the end and if it doesn't work this time then I'm done, although I am aware that I've said this more than once before.

The thing is that ex has just asked to meet for lunch and a chat tomorrow. And I really want to be able to leave that lunch, no matter what the outcome, knowing that I did everything I could as well as i could.

We've been broken up for weeks now, maybe even months, who knows, it's been so on and off for ages. Basically ex runs at the slightest thing, it's over, and then comes back, and i accept it. That is obvously the simplified version. But being off so much has allowed to me get a modicum of a life back, and make some friends, which ex can't cope with due to incredible levels of jealousy/paranoia.  One of my recent boundaries is being able to continue with a life away from ex, and I intend to stick to this, although I know that this is likely to be the biggest stumbling block.

Anyway, I suppose I'm looking for any advice so that I can go into this lunch calmly and prepared. Normally ex turns up and catches me unprepared and I react to the latest accusation/delusion defensively and so ex is off again. I'd really like that not to happen.

Thank you.

FIT

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[babyducks]

Anyway, I suppose I'm looking for any advice so that I can go into this lunch calmly and prepared. Normally ex turns up and catches me unprepared and I react to the latest accusation/delusion defensively and so ex is off again. I'd really like that not to happen.

Hi FIT,

a couple of thoughts,   when the level of emotional rhetoric was very high between my partner and I, I scripted a couple of lines to respond with, they were intended to dial down the level of emotional intensity and protect me from getting into another circular argument that went absolutely nowhere. 

I absolutely sat down and scripted them, crafted them like I was writing a response to a White House Press Conference question.   I said very little,  I said it pretty woodenly, and I repeated it.   If I needed to say it more than 3 times than I knew it was time to leave.

I knew pretty much what was going to come up.   So I had a couple of responses that I used.   One of them was "I'm not in a place to talk about that right now, let's talk about something else."    Another one was "I don't want to revisit history today, let's talk about something light and easy."   You would have to put it in your own words of course.

The thing about circular arguments is that she isn't going to leave them willingly.  She is getting something out of them.  A place to dump her difficult emotions.   Every time I picked up the gauntlet and JADE'd, justified, argued, defended or explained,  I was participating in her illness.   Like you know, that's no fun and no good for either one of us.   Dialing down the emotional temperature took some time.   And an unwillingness to be drawn into conflict.    Which is not to say she didn't try for a while.

'ducks

[ProKonig]

I dunno if you'll like this... .but if it happens I might say something a long the times of, "I was just hoping for a nice lunch. I know these things are hard for you, and I'm happy to listen... .but today... .I was just hoping we could enjoy ourselves and catch up. Maybe some other time though. Let me know." Then I'd leave. Sets a clear boundary. The longer you stay, the more you will be enticed into the circular argument. We all know that leads nowhere good. If you have been building up strength again, don't let it be beat down around you. Show your boundaries are clearer this time. MAYBE! Good luck!

[livednlearned]

I have had a lot of success with what 'ducks proposes -- to have responses queued up that help me manage my own reactions.

It could also be that your GF is looking for validation. Have you tried validating her? Maybe you could run us through a typical conversation and we could be your peanut gallery  and provide some feedback about places to validate her.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey FIT, I agree with baby ducks that JADE'ing just plays into the illness, so that is something to avoid.  I suggest that you not engage, even though it's likely that you will get provoked, bullied, prodded or manipulated by F-O-G (fear, obligation and guilt).  Just the way it is with a pwBPD.  You will see the F-O-G rolling in from a mile away, so don't get into it, is my suggestion.  What do you expect to get out of this meeting?  What makes you think things will play out differently than they in the past?  There's no reason why you can't leave if things get tense, right?  Or is there something keeping you in the ring?  There are no easy answers, I know.

LuckyJim

[La Carotte]

Thanks for your helpful replies everyone, I see sense and bits I can take from all of them.

Babyducks and ProKonig- Yes! I agree with what you both say, and in fact I have tried that in the past, although not actually going as far as to write something. The problem is that ex then says I'm like an ostrich and refuse to talk about anything, which is our biggest problem- as well as me being a lying serial cheater, I'm also a terrible communicator. If I stick to a script I'm refusing to communicate and so what's the point of meeting and if I reply naturally  then... .Who knows where it'll end?

Livednlearned- ex is always looking for validation. Always. And I know I'm not great at giving it. I think afterwards but then it's too late. This is the key for me I think. I'm going to reread the lessons. The problem is not to get so offended by the things ex accuses me of and accept them for what they are, ie greatest fears. And so, validate the feeling not what's being said. This is the hardest thing for me. Ex accuses me all the time of affairs, or wanting someone else, or not wanting ex or lying or deceiving or  or or. It's exhausting. Nearly every single thing I say is questioned and not believed and absolutely every single interaction I have with another human being. Based on nothing whatsoever in our reality. It's so hard, and so triggering for me after three years of this constantly. There isn't a single shred of evidence that ex can ever come up with to back up the thoughts, but that doesn't seem to matter, they're true and I'm dumped anyway. It's hard to validate stuff around that. I sometimes ask afterwards, why do you stay with me if I'm sleeping with so many people and desiring so many others? Answer- becUse I know it's not true really. So WHY SAY IT? Any advice gratefully received!

Lucky Jim- I think you are entirely right - I need to look out for the FOG, and just not engage. It's so hard for me not to JADE- when I'm being told yet again that I've done this, said that, thought the other, it's hard, so hard. I feel that if I don't defend myself it's like I'm admitting it, and I'm sure ex thinks that too.

Why do i think things will play out differently? Because I'm prepared and have been learning hopefully. But I'm not too optimistic. The reality is that we've had some lovely times In recent weeks, but within an hour of leaving me we're back on the same treadmill, ex's abandonment issues are so great that they can't cope and so ill almost certainly be dumped for somethign I'm thinking by supper time anyway.

Bleurgh. Not sure why I'm bothering going now, it all feels a bit pointless suddenly. Nothing I can do can change the level of anxiety ex experiences around me. I sometimes think I could be in a room with ex and no one else all day and I'd still be accused of thinking about some one else. Sigh.

Anyway, thanks for your responses everyone.

FIT

[ProKonig]

It takes real strength to have the guts to give those set-responses and walk away when you have to. My partner hates it too, she sees it pretty quickly and last time accused me of being a robot (I am secretly a robot though, don't tell anyone). Since from what I gather there is a real degree of emotional immaturity, she screams things like, "love is meant to be irrational!" and tries to drag me into the cycle as much as possible. Maybe other BPDs won't be as acknowledging of the irrationality as that, but it's the same thing I guess. They get something out of the conflict it seems. Always challenging you to see if you'll abandon them, to prove their misconception in their head. If you leave, they validate that belief... .maybe.

When faced with irrationality and hurtfulness, our natural inclination is to challenge them, but it's essentially pointless to do so, as we know. My approach (if I'm feeling strong) is to reinforce positive behaviour and protect myself from negative behaviour. It's easy to say what your boundaries are, but acting on them is a different matter. Maybe if you stick to your script and when necessary walk away, her understanding of your boundaries will become more established and may yield results.

I've faced infuriating and emotionally draining accusations of what is going on in my head too. No evidence for them, just speculation stemming from BPD. Completely circular right? Give an answer to the accusation, answer ignored or considered a lie, move on to next thing, exhaust list of accusations, start over. Rinse and repeat until complete emotional breakdown of one participant occurs.

I don't know... .I've just started making it clear I am completely available and want no one else, but won't be with her properly until there have been significant improvements in our interaction over the long-term. If that involves distance and staying away for periods while she works things out for herself and seeks help. You can't control what actions are taken to build a more stable situation... .there's always a degree of 'there's only so much I can take'.

[babyducks]

Hi FIT,

Being in a r/s with a pwBPD can be wounding.   I will go so far as to guess and say we all ended up here because of the profound pain we were in.   Like ProKonig says it takes real strength to deal with both the relationship and the fallout it can create.   Its important to be gentle and careful with ourselves.

The problem is that ex then says I'm like an ostrich and refuse to talk about anything, which is our biggest problem- as well as me being a lying serial cheater, I'm also a terrible communicator.

I think if we allow someone who suffers from the traits of a disorder to unilaterally define our relationship we will always being dealing with negative conations.  My partner sometimes feels we communicate terribly.   I don't take that on board anymore.   Not my stuff to deal with.   I let it bounce off and roll away.   It used to hurt to be accused of being a terrible communicator, especially when I was trying so hard to do things better.   I examined that.   There was a lot to pull apart in that one simple accusation.   Why did it hurt so badly, what sore toe of mine was it landing on?   Was it accurate?   What should I change and why?   Right now I am at a place where I am comfortable with me and my efforts so when she says that I just smile.   And let it go.   

Bleurgh. Not sure why I'm bothering going now, it all feels a bit pointless suddenly. Nothing I can do can change the level of anxiety ex experiences around me. I sometimes think I could be in a room with ex and no one else all day and I'd still be accused of thinking about some one else. Sigh.

True.  Nothing you can do will change her or the level of anxiety she experiences.  That belongs to her.   What can be done is to start yourself down a path to better communications, more stability, more understanding, and hope she follows.  She may.  She may not.   The end result though is that you have done all you could and you end up with skills that you can take into every relationship you have, not just romantic ones.

what do you think?

'ducks

[La Carotte]

So we had lunch and it was lovely.

We talked mainly superficial, all pleasant and then touched on a couple of things, but in a kind way, and with a bit of humour.

i saw a side to ex that I haven't seen in a long time, a side that other people see and admire, and I remembered what attracted me in the first place.

We've agreed to try and reconnect, but taking it slowly so we can both try and do it well this time.

It's a lovely idea. And all at ex's instigation,well thought out and reasonable. The issues for me are:

- to not get carried away and imagine it'll all be wonderful now. I've done that before. More than once. I need to stay with reality

- to "reinforce positive behaviour and protect myself from negative behaviour"  and "when necessary walk away". Maintain boundaries and not lose myself again

- to use the time to develop my skills, especially communication in an ex- friendly way, and but also develop the ability to let what is said to me about my poor skills there "bounce off and roll away" (I really like that image!). What you said made a lot of sense, babyducks- I need to question why it bothers me so much when I know it isn't true.

- mainly, I think I need to work on my own stability. I've been all over the place in recent months, reacting strongly  to everything. I need to calm down a bit.

Have to say, while it is obvously very very very early days, and there has been an awful lot of damage done that will need repairing, and if I think too much about it I feel overwhelmed, it's very lovley indeed to be going to bed thinking only nice things about ex- it's been a long time since that happened!

[Lucky Jim]

Hey F-I-T, I'm happy to hear that you and your Ex are ready to make a new beginning.  If I may make a suggestion, it would be to remind you that talk is cheap and what really matters is action on the part of your Ex.  Her behavior is the indicator, not her words, in my view, so proceed, but proceed with caution.

LuckyJim

[La Carotte]

Lucky Jim

Thank you for that important reminder. I am very guilty of excusing, ignoring, forgetting her actions  when she she says the things I want to hear. My key words need to be calm and real I think. It's too easy for me to get caught up in the wishful thinking -of us both- and then react to and then make excuses for her... .

I'm grateful for the grounding and good advice on these boards

[babyducks]

Hi FIT,

I am glad you had lunch and that it went well and was over all a positive experience.

We've agreed to try and reconnect, but taking it slowly so we can both try and do it well this time... .Have to say, while it is obviously very very very early days, and there has been an awful lot of damage done that will need repairing

I don't think we've bumped into each other much on the boards so let me share the short version of my story.    Back in the spring of 2013 my partner and I were going through a very bad time,   I was under a lot of stress,  so was she.   At one point the conflict in the relationship flashed over into violence, and I ended up with badly broken right hand that required surgery to repair.   It was, without getting into details, my own darn fault.   I prevaricated in a bad situation and I let it get out of control.     

When we started to work to repair the relationship I had to sit down and take a cold clear look at what it really took to be in a relationship with a person with a serious mental illness.  In my case, two serious mental illness as my partner is dual diagnosed.   Love was not going to conquer all.   I needed a boots on the ground, practical approach to how to do this reality.   For me I needed to take a hard look at coming back from the violent incident and see if it could even be managed.   I talked to a lot of professionals.  I struggled with it for a long time.  I built in a plethora of safeguards that offered stress relief.   I had the full cooperation of my partner as we very slowly worked our way through this.    I agree with Lucky Jim that the unique challenges we face are to be taken seriously.   It's not fair to either myself or my partner not to,  been there done that.   Have learned from it.

- to "reinforce positive behaviour and protect myself from negative behaviour"  and "when necessary walk away". Maintain boundaries and not lose myself again

- to use the time to develop my skills, especially communication in an ex- friendly way, and but also develop the ability to let what is said to me about my poor skills there "bounce off and roll away" (I really like that image!). What you said made a lot of sense, babyducks- I need to question why it bothers me so much when I know it isn't true.

- mainly, I think I need to work on my own stability. I've been all over the place in recent months, reacting strongly  to everything. I need to calm down a bit.

   I think this is a great plan.  You have really identified some important stuff here.   If you can flesh it out into application it should serve you well.      I remember reading here that pwBPD have difficulties self soothing and that we can have difficulties self validating.   That each in their own way can be unhealthy levels of need.   I had to work on boundaries around not asking for validation from a person who already had their own high validation needs and could be unreliable with validation.  I had to develop skills to center myself, look at my self esteem issues   and keep my own side of the street as clean as I reasonably could.

I used to think my partner had a particular genius in finding accusations that wounded me, that landed on my sore toe.   I used to be frustrated with it and blame her for it.    What I have come to believe over time, is that our core wounds, my partners and mine, were not so dissimilar and that we were triggering each other pretty strongly.   We were bouncing off each out like berserk super balls because our stuff was pretty close to each other.   Family of origin issues basically.   My partner used to accuse me of being 'angry all the time'.  Something less true is hard to imagine.  I even went to a therapist to be vetted.    But I come from an angry family so being called angry was crushing to me.   It was inappropriate for her to project on me by calling me angry.   My reaction was also inappropriate because it out of proportion to the reasonableness of the accusation.   I had to split the two issues apart.

Go slow,   take your time.    Understand there will be set backs along the way.    Post.   A lot.   You don't have to do this alone.

'ducks

[livednlearned]

I remember reading here that pwBPD have difficulties self soothing and that we can have difficulties self validating.   That each in their own way can be unhealthy levels of need.   

This is so well said! I found for me, I spent too much time trying to soothe others, and sought too much validation from them. It really is a process of flipping those two things, as unnerving and weird as it can feel. No longer soothing others, and validating ourselves. Sounds easy! And this board is a good place to pick up skills that help this process.

Right now, you're feeling very validated by her. It's a great feeling. Ideally, you will eventually be able to provide this feeling for yourself, even in the face of not receiving validation from others.

That's the hard work ahead 

[La Carotte]

I remember reading here that pwBPD have difficulties self soothing and that we can have difficulties self validating.   That each in their own way can be unhealthy levels of need.  

This is so well said! I found for me, I spent too much time trying to soothe others, and sought too much validation from them. It really is a process of flipping those two things, as unnerving and weird as it can feel. No longer soothing others, and validating ourselves.

Thank you both of you, that makes complete sense to me, I've never thought of it that way at all, but that resonates strongly. I do need so much validation for her, and it hurts so much when she is so very invalidating, and I think, why bother? But I do bother, and I want to continue bothering so I need to sort that out for myself. Like you say though, Lnl, hard work... .Not sure where to begin in reality.

Thanks for sharing your story, babyducks, I've seen several of your replies to people and they always seem to be how I aspire to be but am far from... It gives me a bit of hope that you clearly came from a bad place... There's so much to think about. I'm good at doing all the reading, but I need to actually start applying it to real life situations in the heat of the moment...

On a positive note, another lovely afternoon spent together, it's the first time we've managed two consecutive days for weeks, and all very easy. Am enjoying this while it lasts!

Thanks for all your support, I really do appreciate it

FIT