Christmas

[Old Dog]

My wife claimed the kitchen as her ground early in 2020.  I told her that wasn't acceptable.  Thanksgiving 2020, we were at the kitchen table in the morning.  She told me I had to leave so she could use the table for making something.  I said she could ask.  She got upset and the teenage kids got upset at me.  Before that I had done the Christmas meal and asked her to help, which she pointedly ignored.  I offered to help that year but got the silent treatment. 

I realize a number of mistakes and problems.  I'm trying to enact a boundary with our being together this holiday but don't see what I might have as a consequence?  (I realize its late in the game.)  I could leave but I think she'd want that.  If I stay and fight, I alienate my kids further.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Pook075]

My wife claimed the kitchen as her ground early in 2020.  I told her that wasn't acceptable.  Thanksgiving 2020, we were at the kitchen table in the morning.  She told me I had to leave so she could use the table for making something.  I said she could ask.  She got upset and the teenage kids got upset at me.  Before that I had done the Christmas meal and asked her to help, which she pointedly ignored.  I offered to help that year but got the silent treatment. 

I realize a number of mistakes and problems.  I'm trying to enact a boundary with our being together this holiday but don't see what I might have as a consequence?  (I realize its late in the game.)  I could leave but I think she'd want that.  If I stay and fight, I alienate my kids further.

Hi Old Dog, thanks for posting and sharing.

I'm no expert here, but I've learned through my similar experiences that we have to choose our battles.  Sure, she probably shouldn't tell you to leave the kitchen or the dining room table, but is that really the point you feel like you have to stand your ground on? 

[Rev]

Hey Old Dog,

Thanks for reaching out.  I can sort feel that you feel like you are between a rock and hard place.  And if insight is going to be helpful, it would be helpful to tease out the story a bit - and maybe get a wider picture of your relationship in general.

You are here on a board for BPD.  What brought you here? For example, you came here rather than going to a board for family dynamics in general.

How long have you been together?  
How would you describe how your relationship has evolved?
What is it like now?
What led her to "claim the kitchen"?  (My mother needed to do that with my father when he finally retired. He was driving her a little nuts. It sorted itself out eventually   )

Any other details you think might be useful?  Like what is it that you want us to understand about what life is like for you at home and in the marriage in general?

Thoughts?

Rev

[Old Dog]

We've been together 24 years.  We have gone 3 times to different marriage counselors.  When the last (about 6 years ago) said my wife may contribute to our issues, my wife stormed out yelling and the relationship has gotten progressively worse.  I continued to see him hoping he could help me with my issues.  He said his personal opinion was she has BPD based on her behavior and the things I've said (recognizing bias), but wouldn't swear to it without being able to diagnose with her in a clinical setting.  After that, I read, Walking on Eggshells, which nailed my experience.

While I think kids have a greater affinity for mothers, she uses them emotionally.  Since early after having kids, she has told me to get off the couch because she wanted to watch tv, out of the bedroom, out of the kitchen, and so on.  If I won't do it, she melts down, blaming me and telling the kids she needs to get them out of the dysfunction.  She will not talk to me in person, only by text or email.   I've come to see I have severe boundary issues (lack there of).

I work fulltime and she parttime, so she has more access to the kids.  I've wanted to leave a number of times, but haven't wanted to abandon them as it is likely she would get primary custody.

On the 21st, I texted that one of us could pick Christmas Eve and the other Christmas Day.  She hasn't responded and based on past patterns probably won't.

[Old Dog]

Regarding the kitchen, I had been doing the dishes for years.  She said it wasn't useful to her and she was claiming the kitchen.  The kids have tattletailed on me to her when I have done anything.

[Rev]

Regarding the kitchen, I had been doing the dishes for years.  She said it wasn't useful to her and she was claiming the kitchen.  The kids have tattletailed on me to her when I have done anything.

Wow - won't talk to you - only text and you are under the same roof?  That sounds like a bit of a pressure cooker, to put it mildly.

So, I have given it some thought. And I am a little stumped as to what to say. Setting a boundary, to my mind, involves some interaction that needs to be controlled. And the key word here is interaction - but I am not hearing any interaction.  What I am reading is that you are being radically ignored.  I know that may be painful to hear. But based on what you have written, that is what I am sensing.

I am wondering if what you are looking for is not a way to assert yourself in some way - like to even be acknowledged?  If you would like, we could start to plan out some strategy - I say strategy because this situation really sounds like its beyond applying some techniques.

Let me know what you think.

If you are interested in trying to figure this out - it would be helpful to know how old your children are, what your relationship with them is like, and what kind of support network that you have outside the home (Friends, family, work colleagues, etc.)

I really feel for you man.  This sounds pretty tough.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Old Dog, 

Welcome to our online family. Glad to have you join us. 

I see that Rev and Pook75 have already shared some good thoughts. Thank you for entrusting us with your story.

As I read your posts, so many things have gone through my mind. Reminders of my dad and uBPDm fighting about things, and the melt downs and aggression or 'silent treatment.' That's a killer if ever there was one! Then it also brought up some reminders of my own 35 year marriage and those tough feelings of not having a place in the relationship anymore. When did it get lost? Do you ever wonder that too?

You've talked about boundaries, and if I'm picking it up right, you feel that exerting boundaries will help to re-establish your place in the home with your W and kids. It seems as if you're trying to make a statement that you exist in the family and in the home, rather a way to carve out space for you because you don't have a place anymore. The need we each have as individuals to belong is so very strong, a God given need that is within each of us to live and thrive, not just to try to survive. If I may be blunt, you're just surviving in the place where you want to be much more than that, and it sounds as if this has been going on for some time. I truly am so sorry. I know what it's like from my own parallel journey. It's not the same as what you're going through, but it is a place of extreme loneliness and unfulfilled emotional needs for both of us.

Here is a link about how we understand boundaries on the BPD board: Boundaries and Values 

You've asked specifically:

I'm trying to enact a boundary with our being together this holiday but don't see what I might have as a consequence?  (I realize its late in the game.)  I could leave but I think she'd want that.  If I stay and fight, I alienate my kids further.

You've mentioned what she would want. You've also mentioned how your kids will respond. What I haven't heard is what you want, deep down in your core. I'd rather focus on you and your well being, not so much everyone else's. What will help you the most to find you again and help you feel as if your important?

Remember, you are of great value and importance, even if you don't feel that. Feelings help us to navigate the world we live in, but they don't define us. Your uBPDw and kids don't define you either. 

 
Wools

[Old Dog]

Thank you for taking an interest, Pook, Rev & Woolspinner,

I got distracted by Christmas.  Before I could respond to my wife, she said that she was taking the kids to her sisters for Eve, so I said I wanted them the majority of Christmas, which mostly worked out.  I appreciate your advice and have a blended reply to all three,

I have always felt like I have to pick my battles, but my common response is to not pick one.  Doesn't work quite so well in marriage.  It's strange to me: I work as a treehugger (environmentalist) for a right wing club (military); I can assert myself there and earn respect by working through issues, but I can't seem to at home.  As I think on that, it's not so true in that my wife won't work through issues but just asserts that I ought to be a certain way.  Blame is intrinsic to her communication.

I've felt marginalized within the family and as I've learned of boundaries, thought my boundary should be to not let myself.  The flipside of the same thought is to assert myself.  Looking back, I can see some warning signs even when we were dating.  Our relationship really went downhill once we had kids.  I haven't known how to handle Thanksgiving 2020, where my kids joined with my wife.

Yeah, techniques haven't worked so much.  My wife is very smart and perceptive.  Years ago, I spent some effort learning "Difficult Conversations," thinking it would give me skills in communication but she didn't have any of it.  Kind of like riding a wild horse.

My 2 kids are 20, in college but living at home, and 16.  I have a good friend with whom I meet most weeks.  I realized I have been more interested in emoting with him and him consoling me, than with getting solutions, so asked him to not let me emote so much.  I find it hard to make friends with middle age men, who often have families and don't want to take the time.  While I have faith, I haven't found much support in religious settings; I've been told to endure and look to the future.  While it appeals to my strongest value, loyalty, it doesn't work so well.  I do fairly well in my work field and relate well to colleagues, but we don't do much outside of work.

What I really want out of my marriage is affection and companionship.  I don't really need anyone to do anything for me (though it is nice).  I need belonging.  Our relationship really went downhill when I told my wife that 6-8 years ago, which was coincidental to when she started the silent treatment.  I've come to realize I've looked to her for value, which has kept me stuck.  I don't see love as a feeling so much, but I no longer trust or care about her.  My loyalty to my kids and to the idea of marriage keeps me here.  On the negative side, I fear rejection by her and by my kids.  These combined are why I haven't divorced.

[Rev]

Hey Olddog

Thanks for the response. Give me day and I'll be back to you.

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[Rev]

I have always felt like I have to pick my battles, but my common response is to not pick one.  Doesn't work quite so well in marriage.  It's strange to me: I work as a treehugger (environmentalist) for a right wing club (military); I can assert myself there and earn respect by working through issues, but I can't seem to at home.  As I think on that, it's not so true in that my wife won't work through issues but just asserts that I ought to be a certain way.  Blame is intrinsic to her communication. My loyalty to my kids and to the idea of marriage keeps me here.  On the negative side, I fear rejection by her and by my kids.  These combined are why I haven't divorced.

Hi Old Dog,

Thanks for sharing this. As you can see, once you get a bit of distance from things, stuff rises out of our sub-conscious mind - as seen in the words that you wrote and that I put in bold type.

How are you feeling when you come to this moment of self awareness. It can be pretty sobering to some people, intimidating to others, and liberating to still others.

And - I would say that legitimate research I did at University for a Master's thesis suggests that for men, this is not uncommon (see what has been bolded in red).

When you read this, what does it evoke in you?  Hang in there. You are moving in the direction of finding footing to assert yourself in a way where you will be able to face the reaction you may get. The key is to move at a pace where you maintain control of your choices - a conscious response vs a purely emotional reaction. (By the way - choosing to do nothing can be either).

Thoughts?

Reach out any time. Still really feeling for you in this one - especially where the kids are involved.

Rev

[Pook075]

Rev's advice is so dead-on perfect...I went on that journey as well and once I finally had the revelation that there's been problems for decades that I just accepted and avoided, it's like a bomb went off in my mind.  I'm a professional that leads teams and helps businesses get to the root of their problems, and people seek me out for business advice.  How can I be so confident, trusted, etc. in one part of my life and such a pushover in another?

The answer is love- I love my wife and kids more than anything, and I'd do anything for them.  But in our cases around a person with BPD, we have to have healthy boundaries and make a conscious decision of what we'll accept or reject.  How we respond is also crucial, which I've never been good at because I had no idea what I was dealing with.

[Rev]

Both of you might find this book useful.

https://www.amazon.ca/Attached-Science-Adult-Attachment-Help/dp/B07ZJVPL39/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=1352399535404036&hvadid=84525482518794&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=125233&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-84525141391293%3Aloc-32&hydadcr=22427_13386927&keywords=attached+book&qid=1672593046&sr=8-1

[Old Dog]

My thoughts are that I'm extremely frustrated by the situation and can't seem to make the paradigm shift that boundaries are needed and helpful.  That I'm looking for a "footing to assert" myself hits the nail on the head.  I can see we've had problems for decades, even going back to dating - I ignored a Gandalf-like voice in my head that said, "fly, you fool(s)."  I totally identify that I can be assertive at work, even ruthless playing sports or games, but a pushover at home.  Part mighrt be that I don't want to have to be that way everywhere and want a place I can relax.  I would endure anything to not give up my kids.  Because of early family history, I can see where a deep fear of abandonment comes from.  I also see that I have had boundaries, but she has a very demonstrative reaction and I don't keep them up.  At the same time I can see the paradigm that I'm to be nonassertive at home isn't doing me, my wife or kids any good.

[Rev]

My thoughts are that I'm extremely frustrated by the situation and can't seem to make the paradigm shift that boundaries are needed and helpful.  That I'm looking for a "footing to assert" myself hits the nail on the head.  I can see we've had problems for decades, even going back to dating - I ignored a Gandalf-like voice in my head that said, "fly, you fool(s)."  I totally identify that I can be assertive at work, even ruthless playing sports or games, but a pushover at home.  Part mighrt be that I don't want to have to be that way everywhere and want a place I can relax.  I would endure anything to not give up my kids.  Because of early family history, I can see where a deep fear of abandonment comes from.  I also see that I have had boundaries, but she has a very demonstrative reaction and I don't keep them up.  At the same time I can see the paradigm that I'm to be nonassertive at home isn't doing me, my wife or kids any good.

Every single thing  you write here is a step towards more clarity - which granted isn't necessarily fun. And you are realizing that the alternative to clarity is some kind of bypassing the reality and that isn't helping (the part I highlighted in bold).

My own T told me - Rev, much easier to get into a relationship than get out of one (or in your case, change it). What he means by this is that we forget that patterns can be well worn and so just because we have new knowledge, the patterns don't change overnight (the part in italics).  I wonder if the footing you aren't looking for is to speak a truth of some sort without fear of consequences - put another way, I wonder if the time to be quiet about certain things is not coming to an end and that you are just searching to live out the boundaries you have laid out in the past, but this time hold your ground come what may.

What do you think?

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[Old Dog]

You are moving in the direction of finding footing to assert yourself in a way where you will be able to face the reaction you may get. The key is to move at a pace where you maintain control of your choices - a conscious response vs a purely emotional reaction.

...once I finally had the revelation that there's been problems for decades that I just accepted and avoided, it's like a bomb went off in my mind.

I've been pondering this.  I feel like I stuff my reaction down and then my emotions fester and I never get to a response.  I also feel like I have to respond and then my emotions get out of control, then realizing my reaction won't be good I stifle it again.

I wonder if the footing you aren't looking for is to speak a truth of some sort without fear of consequences

I also think I'm looking for a perfect one-time solution.  But, its a process and I can learn.  Would be easier if it was easy.  I really appreciate your support and this forum.

[Rev]

I've been pondering this.  I feel like I stuff my reaction down and then my emotions fester and I never get to a response.  I also feel like I have to respond and then my emotions get out of control, then realizing my reaction won't be good I stifle it again.

I also think I'm looking for a perfect one-time solution.  But, its a process and I can learn.  Would be easier if it was easy.  I really appreciate your support and this forum.

Great insights - the term for the first insight is "turbulence".  There are ways to condition yourself to work out the natural turbulence that is created - use it even to discern what the response ought to be.

AND that leads your second observation - yes - that's a process you can learn.   Would be easier it it was easy - love that. I might just steal it one day   :

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.   (And thanks for the sentiment of appreciation. Know this - one day, regardless of what you choose, you'll be paying this forward to the next person.)

Rev