Ending childcare with BP Grandma

[DesignMom]

  My MIL has bpd, but is really good with young children. She is a retired kindergarten teacher and has provided child care for my little ones for the past 3 years with no major issues. However, we finally have the financial means to put them in daycare! So for their future psychological safety (I'm sure as they get older they will trigger her bpd) I want to make this switch soon. I have planned to schedule some fun "grandma dates" with my kids to reassure her that the switch isn't us abandoning her, and I have rehearsed a billion support-empathy-truth statements in preparation, but we hit a curve ball...

Last week, she found out that we are no longer attending church (in the religion she raised her children in) and this of course triggered her. I am suddenly the devil and my husband is "her greatest disappointment" etc. etc.

So the debate: smooth things over (which I predict will take 6+ months of concerted effort on our part), continue to let her watch our kids and then change the childcare situation next fall when things are calm? Or end her childcare now, even though it will escalate the current episode? 

She is not a threat to my children now. They are both under 5 and beg to go to grandmas everyday. We have  had her watch them 3 times since this past episode started and while she gives us the silent treatment at drop off and pick up, she is still very loving to our kids.

One of her first texts after finding out we weren't attending church was "So be honest, when are you going to stop letting me see my grandchildren". I don't want it to come to that, (it would break my 4 year old daughter's heart) and don't think it needs to now. But I can already imagine the verbal abuse she will send our way when we tell her they are going to daycare and I am worried that for my own mental health we will need to stop contact and that that will become a self fulfilled prophesy.

Any advice?

[Riv3rW0lf]

Rough position to be in for sure.

You are right that as they grow older, the BPD traits will likely increase, especially as they start their individuation process in full-gear.

Quick question about all this which could help us get a better grasp of the situation... What does your H think of all this? How is he managing his mother's outbursts?

I think my main advice, when it comes to BPD, in the end, will be to protect your children and do whatever you think is best for them. Right now, seeing how they were so closed to their grandmother, completely cutting it off will likely hurt them too... A lot. They spent a lot of time with her in their first few years.

But then, you are right that you cannot tolerate abuse. So...

What boundaries do you currently have in place when she starts lashing out at you and your H? Would you be willing to leave in the middle of an outburst? To make it clear to her that you will not be tolerating her abuse anymore... Make it clear that some subjects, like religion, are simply out of bounds maybe?

I'd do it gradually for the children, and ensure all visits are supervised, either by you or your H... Which is why I was asking what are your H's thoughts on all this? Is he enmeshed with his mother? What is his trauma level and independance level toward her?

[Notwendy]

I think a lot of how much contact is dependent on your H, it's his mother.

As for the kids, consider that even if day care is eventually the situation you have chosen for them, it's also a change for them and an adjustment to be in a new situation and also not be with grandma as much as they were. It may be that they need to be eased into it- maybe day care 3 days a week and grandma for 2 of them.

Likely you would be paying full time so this transition may just be for a week or so to ease them into the situation. Also, there are days when kids can't go to day care due to holidays, or they have a virus, and maybe grandma can be back up. At this time, if she's not a danger to the kids, I don't see where it has to be a sudden change. However, as they get older, her behavior may be more of a problem with them, but they'd also be in school by that time probably.

As to following a different religious path than your MIL-this can happen in families. While it's understandable that a parent would be upset that their child has left their religion, they also realize that the child is an adult who makes their own choices. Parents with PD's can see their children as extensions of themselves, and so may react differently. It's important that you and your H are aligned on your own boundaries but also maintain some diplomacy with your MIL.

Questions to consider- how much will you want your MIL to expose your kids to her religion? Santa Claus and presents are more secular, taking your kids to church with her, or preaching at them, is not. You can't control what your MIL says to them, so be clear with your H on how you want to handle this on your end as forbidding her to speak about it may not be something you can control but you can have a response to what she says.

Also, grandma won't be the only person to bring up religion. If you live in an area where there are people of several religions, your kids will meet other kids and have questions. Be prepared for them. It may be that you say "grandma believes this, but we believe something else" and this then becomes at school age "your friend Jimmy goes to his church and we do this". Rather than present this situation to your kids as a negative- "we don't believe this" - having your own celebrations and traditions, teaching coexistence with boundaries "this is what our family does"  is a positive.

If your MIL is saying scary things to them like you and your H are the devil, then cutting contact to supervised visits or not at all may be in order.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Also, grandma won't be the only person to bring up religion. If you live in an area where there are people of several religions, your kids will meet other kids and have questions. Be prepared for them. It may be that you say "grandma believes this, but we believe something else" and this then becomes at school age "your friend Jimmy goes to his church and we do this". Rather than present this situation to your kids as a negative- "we don't believe this" - having your own celebrations and traditions, teaching coexistence with boundaries "this is what our family does"  is a positive.

I don't know if this can be used or not... Religion is such a personal matter... Which is why I personally always talk about myself, and my own beliefs, when I speak about it. My father did this with me... He never said : "this is what our family believes. " He always used I-statements to educate me about religionS, and would share his own beliefs with me.

Overtime, I was able to build my own vision of spirituality, of life, of death, of Jesus, God, the Universe... And I find myself to be very open to other's religion and spirituality. I don't come from a place of difference and judgment, but instead, I listen to what they believe in, and I learn from them.. I don't get the community feel one gets from being part of a specific religion, but I could choose one if I wanted. It truly is my decision in the end...

Maybe this is another possible path... If everyone talks about themselves to a child, then the child is allowed to build his/her own beliefs. I find in religion, problems arise when we force it onto a child, instead of providing insights, and educating them, and asking them what they believe?

My father would sometimes ask me... That's why I believe right now, what do you think? And I wasn't wrong or right... He just sometimes didn't agree with me, other times he did... But he always respected my own path in my spirituality...

So maybe instead of "not talking about it", a boundary could also be that everyone talks about themselves using I statements. And if grandma is being a bit manipulative, then this can be explained to the child..." It's very important to grandma, but in the end : you have your own path to walk, and it's ok to disagree with her."

If the child is being used to not being judged, then it becomes easier not to get manipulated into thinking like grandma... To walk their own way...  But then you would also need to accept that your child's way might differ from yours too.

[zachira]

From my experiences being raised by a mother with BPD, your concerns about how your MIL will react (not respond) when she learns that the grandchildren will be going to daycare make perfect sense.
My mother claimed that the happiest time of her life was when my siblings and I were young children. I do believe that she felt loved when we were small and later felt abandonned as we got older, and paid less attention to her. I first became aware that something was really wrong with my mother when she was very upset about my brother and a little girl liking each other when they were in kindergarten.
You seem to think that your MIL will take it out on you and your husband when she finds out that the children will be going to daycare. I never felt safe being alone with my mother (even as an adult). Many members here do not allow their children to spend time with their grandmother with BPD unsupervised. I witnessed many times how my mother pretended to be the perfect mother in front of other adults, and how she was the most abusive when no adults were around. My mother was a former school teacher and often reminisced about how much her students liked her.
I think your biggest concern may be how your children are going to feel when they see less and less of their grandmother. Your children will likely receive some of their grandmother's wrath when alone with her, which could include badmouthing you and your husband which is a form of abuse known as parent alienation. I would say no more alone time with grandmother for your children, and setting some boundaries with her if she does not treat your children and/or you and your husband well when she is with you. When young children witness conflict among adults, they often blame themselves.
This is all so sad, as wonderful grandparents can mean so much to their grandchildren.

[DesignMom]

My mother claimed that the happiest time of her life was when my siblings and I were young children. I do believe that she felt loved when we were small and later felt abandonned as we got older, and paid less attention to her.

The "happiest time of her life" are the exact words she used when she convinced me to have her start watching our kids 3 years ago. She loved it when her boys were little and she loves watching our kids now.

My concern is definitely how my children will feel about seeing Grandma less. If the kids weren't involved we would have zero hesitation going no contact, I do not think my MIL will ever seek professional help and I don't find much in our relationships with her worth saving. But with our kids it's this weird paradox, they LOVE her, so going no contact would be like a death to them, but at the same time I know we need to change the relationship to protect them.

[DesignMom]

Quick question about all this which could help us get a better grasp of the situation... What does your H think of all this? How is he managing his mother's outbursts?

Good question. He is still grieving the loss of the mom he thought he had, and spirals into depression quickly when we fall out of favor with her. He has said many times this last week that he is "done" and that he hopes she dies alone (that is a dramatic statement but I know this community totally gets the sentiment) he has not been responding to her texts.

[DesignMom]

I think a lot of how much contact is dependent on your H, it's his mother.

As for the kids, consider that even if day care is eventually the situation you have chosen for them, it's also a change for them and an adjustment to be in a new situation and also not be with grandma as much as they were. It may be that they need to be eased into it- maybe day care 3 days a week and grandma for 2 of them.

I really appreciate these suggestions. I think something along these lines is what we are doing. Just in the past two weeks they went from being with her everyday, to just 3 days, and now this week we are just taking them over once. I luckily had pto saved up and a sister in law who was willing to take them a few times. We are going to bite the bullet and get them enrolled in daycare for Januray and will do a gradual transition to that too.

I think the biggest challenge now is just sticking to my course. I know my MIL will try to push my buttons to make me fulfill her professey and stop letting my kids see her. Which again, I only fear because my daughter isn't old enough to understand. I am thinking though that maybe if things escalate I could still let my daughter go to grandma's when my Sister in law and neice go over that way Grandma is not off limits to my daughter but the visit is still "supervised".

[Couscous]

I know my MIL will try to push my buttons to make me fulfill her professey and stop letting my kids see her.

Yes, because then she can blame you for it, (you’ll be the persecutor and she the victim) when in reality, she will probably lose interest in your kids when she no longer has anything to gain from spending time with them. I can all but guarantee you that she is not babysitting them out of love, as sad a thought that this may be to contemplate. At best they are filling the void in her life that is supposed to be met by other adults — not her kids or grandkids.

My suggestion is that you do everything in your power to ignore her button pushing, and just treat her like you would a normal grandmother, and invite her to periodically visit with you and the kids. Maybe you could poll your friends and acquaintances to get a sense for how much contact other families have with grandparents — it may be less than you might think, with the exception of the enmeshed families. Perhaps you could decide on a bi-monthly or monthly date at a park or the zoo, or invite her over for dinner so that she can’t stay past bedtime for the kids. And you keep inviting her even if she declines every invitation. This way she will not get to create drama and play the victim and get family members to take sides, and you will feel good about yourself for handling the situation in a mature, even-handed manner. She may surprise you and eventually grow up a bit herself.

I also suggest that your H see a family counselor who can help him to separate and individuate from his family of origin so that he can potentially avoid doing a family cutoff. If he doesn’t see the need for that, then I highly recommend the book Boundaries, by Drs. Cloud and Townsend. Wishing you all best.