Accountability

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I know that this post is going to shake the hornet nest a bit but that is OK because I think that it needs to be said.

I purposefully didn’t title this “they” as we see in a lot of posts because as has been stated elsewhere many times there are no “they.” This fact lends credence to my argument. I have seen many a post (and I have even asked a question worded like this) do “they” do this or do “they always” do that… and since the answer is no we have to start looking at people as individuals and not robots.

My story is a touch different than a lot I see on here. I never went through years of torture, abuse and recycles… I was a one and done. I ended up on here after a friend of hers suggested that my ex might have BPD. No question I was hurting after the breakup. It was hard to grasp the lightning speed of emotional change (at least from my perspective), the lies and the lack of any real closure that you get in more normal relationships. The only question that I have had to answer for myself is why I walked into this bear trap to start with.

I knew, well at least a little, what I was getting into. First just for clarity my ex would be labeled as a BPD waif, high functioning. She has been through the system before, including 2 inpatient admissions to the psychiatric ward, continuing struggles with a diagnosis of severe anxiety, severe depression and bulimia.  

The first bit of deception is that these problems are all behind her. She also mentions these to set herself up as the victim of the horrible world that has treated her so badly. She also uses these as an excuse to allow any and all sorts of behaviors and then files them under “I told you I was crazy.”

When we first started dating, she was actually in the middle of dealing with not one but two other peoples struggles post relationship with her. Her last boyfriend before me was still in the need to talk to her phase trying to figure out what had happened and the other was a friend that also had psychiatric issues (which was why they were friends) who had just done some SIB (self injurious behavior) because of my ex’s actions. We need to understand what I just said… she is playing three different people at this point, lying to all three of us and setting me up for her next game.

I understand completely that some of these actions are in a response to her disorder… but I think we need to get past this idea that they cannot help it at all.

Again I can only speak for mine. My ex had been told by multiple people that she has some serious issues, including professionals, myself, her friends and parents but refuses to do anything about it… well simply because it will be hard. She justifies her not wanting to go to therapy by stating that she “knows all their tricks” so she thinks it won’t help.

At some point when a mirror is put up and you look at yourself and you look around you and see the carnage that you have caused you need to be strong enough to deal with it. It is no different than an addict in my view at some point you need to face who you are.

My ex is a very pretty girl and thus has the ability to go from one guy to the next and has been doing so for 20 years. The one after me got the gift of a baby weeks into her new relationship with him so not only is she still breaking hearts but now is getting ready to step up her game by ruining other lives.

I am sorry to have to argue the general tenor of this website that all of what they do is pure mental illness and cannot be helped. Many of the signs and symptoms are obviously part of the disorder but choices that they make on how to deal with their daily lives are most certainly under their control. In short they just are not zombies.

[jdcthunder14]

I know that this post is going to shake the hornet nest a bit but that is OK because I think that it needs to be said.

I purposefully didn’t title this “they” as we see in a lot of posts because as has been stated elsewhere many times there are no “they.” This fact lends credence to my argument. I have seen many a post (and I have even asked a question worded like this) do “they” do this or do “they always” do that… and since the answer is no we have to start looking at people as individuals and not robots.

My story is a touch different than a lot I see on here. I never went through years of torture, abuse and recycles… I was a one and done. I ended up on here after a friend of hers suggested that my ex might have BPD. No question I was hurting after the breakup. It was hard to grasp the lightning speed of emotional change (at least from my perspective), the lies and the lack of any real closure that you get in more normal relationships. The only question that I have had to answer for myself is why I walked into this bear trap to start with.

I knew, well at least a little, what I was getting into. First just for clarity my ex would be labeled as a BPD waif, high functioning. She has been through the system before, including 2 inpatient admissions to the psychiatric ward, continuing struggles with a diagnosis of severe anxiety, severe depression and bulimia.  

The first bit of deception is that these problems are all behind her. She also mentions these to set herself up as the victim of the horrible world that has treated her so badly. She also uses these as an excuse to allow any and all sorts of behaviors and then files them under “I told you I was crazy.”

When we first started dating, she was actually in the middle of dealing with not one but two other peoples struggles post relationship with her. Her last boyfriend before me was still in the need to talk to her phase trying to figure out what had happened and the other was a friend that also had psychiatric issues (which was why they were friends) who had just done some SIB (self injurious behavior) because of my ex’s actions. We need to understand what I just said… she is playing three different people at this point, lying to all three of us and setting me up for her next game.

I understand completely that some of these actions are in a response to her disorder… but I think we need to get past this idea that they cannot help it at all.

Again I can only speak for mine. My ex had been told by multiple people that she has some serious issues, including professionals, myself, her friends and parents but refuses to do anything about it… well simply because it will be hard. She justifies her not wanting to go to therapy by stating that she “knows all their tricks” so she thinks it won’t help.

At some point when a mirror is put up and you look at yourself and you look around you and see the carnage that you have caused you need to be strong enough to deal with it. It is no different than an addict in my view at some point you need to face who you are.

My ex is a very pretty girl and thus has the ability to go from one guy to the next and has been doing so for 20 years. The one after me got the gift of a baby weeks into her new relationship with him so not only is she still breaking hearts but now is getting ready to step up her game by ruining other lives.

I am sorry to have to argue the general tenor of this website that all of what they do is pure mental illness and cannot be helped. Many of the signs and symptoms are obviously part of the disorder but choices that they make on how to deal with their daily lives are most certainly under their control. In short they just are not zombies.

[FogLight]

Of course they aren't zombies, and do have free will.  They also have distinct personalities when you get passed the mirroring, but they do seem to be out of touch with who they are or what they really want in life.  My ex made plenty of statements about her actions that showed she had at least some insight to her behavior, though it was always long after the fact when the heat of the moment was over.  But this clearly showed she was aware of the choices she made.  I do see her as an addict.  She is addicted to maladaptive coping mechanisms that provide short term relief, but produce problems in the long term.  We all do this to some extent in different areas, for example a person with social anxiety may become a hermit to avoid the anxiety, but the problem gets worse and the person will be living a lonely life.  And every case is different, for example my ex never showed any indication that she felt smothered as many pwBPD seem to do.  They aren't clones, but the similarities are striking, as is the case for pretty much any other disorder.

In other words, good points.

[Newton]

jdctunder14... .  I appreciate your frustration and position on this... .  totally.  I was in that place, deliberating, cogitating, attempting to understand... .  

Do you know why I didn't come to a rational conclusion?... .  because there isn't one ... .  apart from "people with BPD are severely mentally ill... .  I can't take myself to that place, I can see the world in grey, so therefore I am unable to truly experience how they perceive the world and the people around them who care about them"... .  

I don't want to experience it!... .  I got a glimpse when I bought into months of projection, transference, paranoia... .  etc etc... .  I was so enmeshed, and buying into her feelings SO much it took me to the edge of my sanity... .  

I'm 6 foot 2... .  15 stone and have trained in martial arts since I was 7 years old... .  (you'll need to do the conversions for weight and height as I'm speaking Englandese    ... .  Set all that aside... .  I am TERRIFIED of spiders!  .  I will freak and run out of an apartment block if I see one big enough!  

If YOU are not scared of spiders in the slightest then it will be tough for you to empathise with me... .  won't it?

Does my behaviour make sense to you if you don't have that particular trigger?... .  

Their trigger for that fight or flight response is attachment/engulfment... .  simple.

People with BPD experience emotions of fear, shame, guilt on levels we cannot understand... .  perhaps be glad that you can't  

In order to protect themselves from those crushing feelings they utilize denial, projection, transference... .  the list goes on... .  

This isn't about us... .  

If my ex had an incapacitating physical brain trauma as a result of a car crash when she was 2 years old... .  it would be pretty harsh of me to judge her for her necessity to be in a motorised wheelchair at the age of 25... .  being annoyed at her for not being able to walk is pretty invalidating for her... .  and quite a waste of my emotions.  

The causatory factors to create BPD are still highly debated... .  I believe it's safe to say that apportioning blame to them... .  or assuming they have that much "choice" in changing is unsteady ground to walk on... .   

[Surnia]

jdcthunder14

I really appreciate your post and the thoughtful message! 

I can relate with every single word. Perhaps it is easier to detach without recycling attempts. My ex with N traits never try to have me back or did stalk or anything.

The only question that I have had to answer for myself is why I walked into this bear trap to start with.

Yes. And this makes it easier to not vent about "they". We are not just victims.

Again, thank you very much for you post.

[TeaAmongRoses]

jdcthunder21:

I personally believe that "mine" are well aware of the damage they are doing and do it "on purpose" in order to feel in control. I believe they have a higher than normal tolerance for inflicting pain on others for selfish gain and use a lot of pity party and innocence tactics to get away with it. I don't always think this when I'm in the throwes of their manipulation, but later I can see. Especially if I confront them later and start to hear excuses. There are dead give aways that they knew they were acting selfishly for their own feelings. So . . . I guess I have a different opionion than what you've been reading on this board!

Tea

[hithere]

At some point when a mirror is put up and you look at yourself and you look around you and see the carnage that you have caused you need to be strong enough to deal with it.

Great post and well written. I have pondered this many times and I have quoted the above almost to the letter in telling my expBPD this.

One of the things we discussed multiple times in therapy was the fact that she was able to control about 75% of her symptoms at work (and keep her job) and if she could do it at work, why could she not improve at home.  She had a huge fear of losing her job because it was the only real place she got satisfaction from and it catered to her narcissistic side.

I think they do know what they have done but I think it is more like a compulsion.  My exBPD was very high functioning and when she was having a level headed day she would admit to many of her shortcomings but she would always end with, well everyone is a bit crazy anyways.  I think if a person with BPD, especially a high functioning one was ever to confront the real truth about the pain and destruction they have caused, they would just go insane.  In order to protect themselves from insanity their brains find all kinds of ways of justifying their behavior.

So I agree, they are not zombies but the problems they have are so severe that they can rarely control it.

Do you know why I didn't come to a rational conclusion?... .  because there isn't one

Love that Newton! This is really the story of BPD in a nutshell... .  they live in a different world.

[OTH]

BPD is a spectrum disorder. From high functioning to low functioning. To people with just traits. Some posters had good relationships with their partners for decades until a sudden death or a job loss brought up these odd behaviors. Your ex has issues to deal with. She can choose to try and deal with them or to keep in the same dysfunctional patterns all her life. That is up to her.

You seem to recognize how poor her actions are towards you and others. What do you do with this knowledge to make the best decisions for your own life?

[Thyrsos]

Hi!

I recognize almost everything you mention.

You can't blame everything on the disorder.

I think alot of "their" behaviour and evil deeds are deliberate.

[Rose Tiger]

I think it's a soother to them to Release the Kracken.  Control over it?  Sure.  In the book Why Does He do That? it talks about how they can control it in all sorts of situations.  It's safe to do it at home behind closed doors, ahhh feel better now, why is spouse a nervous wreck they wonder... .  

A past therapist said to me, if she suspects a person to be personality disordered, she looks at what is going on with the partner.  

[jdcthunder14]

I really posted this for everyone else... .  Myself I am in a good place (now) but I went through all the normal stuff post BPD relationship.

I just wanted to make it clear that some people with BPD lie, cheat, manipulate, use etc. to deal with their disorders pains. I have seen in other posts how some people describe people with BPD as zombies. I think that is too simplistic and cuts the person with BPD way too much slack.

Newton, yes I get it. I am well aware that mine was mentally ill. The statement I mentioned about her saying that "I know all their tricks" in regards to therapists was from a conversation I had with her when she was explaining some of her troubles. She was explaining to me how she was panicky and anxious and I suggested that she reconnect with her psychiatric dr and start some therapy. Telling her that she did not need to suffer, to get some help and I will support her the best I could. I was a Paramedic for 2 plus decades so I was used to dealing with people that had issues but I also knew my limitations so I told her that she should seek help from the professionals.

[jdcthunder14]

OTH.

Well as I mentioned I describe my time as walking into a bear trap, I have also used falling down the rabbit hole. My reaction to our breakup is what shook me so much and that is what got me into therapy.

Some obvious lessons are that I moved way too fast going into this... I accepted her apartment key 2 weeks into our time together . Biggest one is that when I suggested that she get into therapy and she refused, I should have walked away right then. But I have learned I am a co-dependent and a bit of a rescuer so I stayed and tried to "help." These things will not be happening again.

[Newton]

jd... .  perhaps her avoiding a therapist to confront her core shame issues were the path of least resistance for her?... .  

Kudos to you for suggesting she seek help with a qualified professional  ... .  it's all to easy when we are care giving by nature to attempt to fix our partners... .  

Possibly the "help" you were suggesting (which if embraced would have ultimately led to her having a happier life)... .  was perceived by her as a temporary pain she wasn't willing to endure?... .  

[OTH]

 

OTH.

Well as I mentioned I describe my time as walking into a bear trap, I have also used falling down the rabbit hole. My reaction to our breakup is what shook me so much and that is what got me into therapy.

Some obvious lessons are that I moved way too fast going into this... I accepted her apartment key 2 weeks into our time together . Biggest one is that when I suggested that she get into therapy and she refused, I should have walked away right then. But I have learned I am a co-dependent and a bit of a rescuer so I stayed and tried to "help." These things will not be happening again.

[jdcthunder14]

Newton:

No question on the path of least resistance. Obviously there is much more to her story that I do not know... .  she was 34 at the time and we were together 14 months, a lot of life story missing there.

I do know, since I witnessed it, that her parents expect her to just stand up straight and take care of business. However her father in confidence told me once that she and her mother are "nuttier than fruit cakes." And that he has put up with it for over 30 years. So there is pressure from them to just "walk it off" instead of really dealing with things. They also enable her very much financially so there isn't the incentive to make things better.

So yes she just endures things because she feels she is expected too.

[Newton]

Thyrsos... .  it's possible you are confusing BPD with NPD symptomatolagy... .  

Or it's possible your partner had co-morbid symptoms?... .  

There are excellent workshops here on the distinctions between the two conditions... .  ask and someone will point you in the right direction 

[Newton]

jd... .  

"So yes she just endures things because she feels she is expected to"... .  possibly... .  or... .  

... .  perhaps because she knows she can!

I like the phrase I read here a while back, it's great passing them on... .  "apples don't fall far from trees"... .  

Dysfunctional parents often enable their dysfunctional children as it's a lot easier than confronting the emotional mess THEY caused... .  

[Thyrsos]

Thyrsos... .  it's possible you are confusing BPD with NPD symptomatolagy... .  

Or it's possible your partner had co-morbid symptoms?... .  

There are excellent workshops here on the distinctions between the two conditions... .  ask and someone will point you in the right direction 

Yes, that's possible... .  

But I read up on it quite a bit.

And I'm 100% certain she is BPD with NPD traits.

[Newton]

Thyrsos... .  i haven't read your back posts... .  I assure you I will... .  

My ex's have exhibited both traits of NPD and BPD... .  it can become a confusing mess for us to try and work out what is going on day to day   

Is their behaviour defensive and reactive?... .  or just downright intentional and vindictive?... .  

The bottom line is how it affects US and what we are willing to interact with... .  

Does your SO have a diagnosis?... .  I think it would be great for you, and perhaps helpful for other members if you decided to start a new thread wherever you choose, ... .  outlining how this is affecting you...

[johnnyonthespot]

Good thread.

I have a real problem equating the disorder or the traits to anyone with organic disease, such as a brain trauma/ injury. Patients with catastrophic illnesses like these do not A)hurt anyone else, and B) frequently do not have potential for getting better.

And I am also intensely reluctant to forgive their behaviors based on the idea that their lives are worse than ours, they are more delicate than us, they hate themselves more than we do, or that they feel more intensely than we do.

Instead, this is mostly a disorder relating to absence of impulse control.  Like pedophilia.

Yet we cogitate and mentally masturbate for hours on end about how unfortunate it is to be 'them.'

Incidentally, have you ever been on one of their support group websites? Entirely about being the victim. They like to write in CAPITAL LETTERS because it expresses how OUTRAGEOUS it is that NONS DON'T UNDERSTAND how HORRIBLE their lives were and are, and how UNFAIR society is generally towards people with their ILLNESS. In some instances they even brag about infiltrating this support group, and mocking/ teasing the contributors.

In moments of peace, my zombie had introspective moments as well. She would even cry (god, she was a beautiful cryer) as she spoke about all the people she harmed, and the mistakes she made. But shortly thereafter, the gates of hel would reopen and chaos would reign supreme again.

And jd, mine was beautiful as well. There was always another, easily available sap to listen to her tales of woe (most specifically... .  me!). A positive feedback loop; eject and hit play.

But, as my therapist pointed out, there are fewer 40 yr olds with full-blown BPD. Because eventually the roller coaster ride ends and your tears aren't as beautiful as they once were.

Their behavior... .  it's not ok, guys. You're not gonna convince me otherwise.

[Thyrsos]

Thyrsos... .  i haven't read your back posts... .  I assure you I will... .  

My ex's have exhibited both traits of NPD and BPD... .  it can become a confusing mess for us to try and work out what is going on day to day   

Is their behaviour defensive and reactive?... .  or just downright intentional and vindictive?... .  

The bottom line is how it affects US and what we are willing to interact with... .  

Does your SO have a diagnosis?... .  I think it would be great for you, and perhaps helpful for other members if you decided to start a new thread wherever you choose, ... .  outlining how this is affecting you...

I think their behavior is all of the above... .  

She is undiagnosed. She refuses to get help for anything other then her depression.

She just wan't her "happypills", and don't need anybody else to tell her there is somting else wrong with her (her words).

And "confusing mess" is spot on.

I'll try to start a new thread if you think it will help anyone else.

Still a bit confused over what happend though, and don't really know what to write other then what I wrote in the Beginner section.

But I'll think about it!

Thanks for the tips!

[jdcthunder14]

But, as my therapist pointed out, there are fewer 40 yr olds with full-blown BPD. Because eventually the roller coaster ride ends and your tears aren't as beautiful as they once were.

Their behavior... .  it's not ok, guys. You're not gonna convince me otherwise.

Her own Mother pointed that out to her... .  that her looks are not going to last forever, so truth there.

[jdcthunder14]

jd... .  


I like the phrase I read here a while back, it's great passing them on... .  "apples don't fall far from trees"... .  

Dysfunctional parents often enable their dysfunctional children as it's a lot easier than confronting the emotional mess THEY caused... .  

I will never know but I think that is a good possibility. There is a guilt there from what I am guessing is a big skeleton in the family closet. They all try much too hard to pretend to be perfect.

[Thyrsos]

Good thread.

I have a real problem equating the disorder or the traits to anyone with organic disease, such as a brain trauma/ injury. Patients with catastrophic illnesses like these do not A)hurt anyone else, and B) frequently do not have potential for getting better.

And I am also intensely reluctant to forgive their behaviors based on the idea that their lives are worse than ours, they are more delicate than us, they hate themselves more than we do, or that they feel more intensely than we do.

Instead, this is mostly a disorder relating to absence of impulse control.  Like pedophilia.

Yet we cogitate and mentally masturbate for hours on end about how unfortunate it is to be 'them.'

Incidentally, have you ever been on one of their support group websites? Entirely about being the victim. They like to write in CAPITAL LETTERS because it expresses how OUTRAGEOUS it is that NONS DON'T UNDERSTAND how HORRIBLE their lives were and are, and how UNFAIR society is generally towards people with their ILLNESS. In some instances they even brag about infiltrating this support group, and mocking/ teasing the contributors.

In moments of peace, my zombie had introspective moments as well. She would even cry (god, she was a beautiful cryer) as she spoke about all the people she harmed, and the mistakes she made. But shortly thereafter, the gates of hel would reopen and chaos would reign supreme again.

And jd, mine was beautiful as well. There was always another, easily available sap to listen to her tales of woe (most specifically... .  me!). A positive feedback loop; eject and hit play.

But, as my therapist pointed out, there are fewer 40 yr olds with full-blown BPD. Because eventually the roller coaster ride ends and your tears aren't as beautiful as they once were.

Their behavior... .  it's not ok, guys. You're not gonna convince me otherwise.

Johnnyonthespot, you are on the spot. 

[Newton]

johnnyonthespot... .  I for one am certainly not an apologist for pwbds appalling behaviour... .  

I sincerely hope my posts reflect that sentiment... .  and I strive to encourage members to distance themselves emotionally and physically from any abusive behaviour... .  That advice would be as quickly given to people with BPD too... .  no one should experience abuse from anyone!... .  

I have looked at a few BPD resource websites and if I may be candid... .  they looked like a warzone!... .  

i think it's disappointing there doesn't seem to be the same online support for them that we have here... .  I hope someone corrects me on that assumption... .  

Was I really suprised?... .  nope... .  Can you imagine a rs with a couple who were both BPD?... .  

In response to your points about catastrophic illness... .  people with Alzheimer's, Dementia or frontal lobe

damage can be, at times, incredibly abusive to carers both emotionally and physically.  That is not their choice... .  it is a reaction to events around them... .  and as a result of their condition... .  If we accept the circumstances that create BPD then our SO's had little choice in that either... .  thats a logical matter of fact.  The trauma may have been long before they presented themselves to us as a seemingly healthy adults but there is little difference in the causatory factors... .  

I believe it is all the more challenging to us "Nons" and clinicians because pwBPD can appear so highly functioning on the face of things.  That is our dilemma to deal with... .  they are presenting a face for the world to see and their vitriol and fury (symptoms) and latent anger to anyone who gets to close... .  is VERY hard to spot unless you are trained... .  or emotionally involved with them... .  

That is why we are such a select group here... .  imagine all the poor people who are experiencing these bewildering symptoms from their loved ones with no idea what is truly going on... .  :'( ... .  who haven't found this website!

Until we accept how few with this condition confront their disorder, seek appropriate help and the best they can achieve is a remission of symptoms... .  I believe we are processing our anger at how they behaved... .  

[Rose Tiger]

Some interesting thoughts here.  Ex is sharp, smart sharp.  No emotional intelligence though.  But the intelligence part took over and created a whole person, or the illusion.  I have to kind of admire that kind of compensation, like you lose the sense of hearing and your other four senses become stronger.  Instead of emotional intelligence, he developed a very good facilime.  I can't really get on a high horse because I was similiarly handicapped in how to handle conflict.  I imagine how this would look in a movie... .  dearheart, can you please put the cap back on the toothpaste?  You controlling hag, I want a divorce.  And I lived it, I somehow survived that.  You.do.not.talk.about.tooth.paste.caps.ever.  Or anything.  Ever.  I want to be able talk about things.  With someone that cares, toothpaste caps, I love her, I will put the cap on the toothpaste cap and get a big smooch.  Rather than this is grounds for divorce.     So sad there are people like this, so sad that I lived it.  So great that I escaped.  That is no way to live.

[johnnyonthespot]

Let me say first off, Newton, that I respect your thoughts and writing very much. Sincerely. And I wasn't looking to challenge you or provoke you. Sincerely.

But I really have a problem with the organic brain disorder comparison. Patients with Alzheimer's or multiple-infarction dementia have neuro-degenerative disease; quite literally a progressive erosion of the brain, demonstrated on MRI/ CT, biopsy or autopsy. In these circumstances, it's entirely appropriate to say 'its the disease talking' because it is entirely true. And again, they do not get better... .  it is god-awful stuff.

When a pwBPD/ traits rages, it's the person talking. There are treatments available.  They know right from wrong. Like an addict, they have to make a decision (albeit a very tough one). But they elect not to. Why? in large part, because we allow it, we tolerate it, we endorse it by absorbing their abuse.

My zombie's behavior was learned in childhood, then validated by me, among others. When she finally hit her low, she sought help/therapy. But only because she hit rock bottom... .  not because of any of her victims emotional turmoil, or despair.

Because the zombie had hit rock bottom.

And then the zombie will learn that it, in fact, it was mommy or daddy zombie's fault, and the zombie will have an epiphany and will be greatly relieved.

The zombie will attend a support group with other zombies, and they will discuss their early zombie childhoods, and realize that really,really really really, there was absolutely nothing they could do.

And the zombie will go out and feed... .  

But 'they' won't care about us. Not unless 'they' need us. Not unless she needs me.

[myself]

My T and I talk of this. How it's the behaviors, not the person, being walked away from. Which I understand, and agree with, but it's hard to separate the two when the person should know better. I've looked her right in the eye and told her her actions were hurting me. She knew what I was talking about. I couldn't have been more clear. It was her choice to be more positive from then on, or not. Is a PD/traits a valid excuse not to?

In so many other ways, they can handle what life throws at them (I know that's a questionable statement), but when it comes to being consistently 'kind' (I'll sum it up that way for now), it's just about impossible? And they'll go for MORE damage rather than LESS? They won't allow that kind of behavior towards themselves, but more than dish it out to others, time and time again. They're only blind to certain (their own) contradictions and hypocrisies? Seems selective. The disorder messes with their impulse control, ok, I get it. But at a certain point, with the broken relationships, seeing that their loved ones are hurting due to their actions or lack of actions, even with just the pain that they themselves (pwBPD) feel, they very very rarely ever ask for help? Or change their patterns for the better? Is it that the denial runs too deeply? Not 'zombies', but... .  Strange.

There have been other threads here discussing how much of what goes on in these relationships was intentional or not. The behaviors don't exist without the person, do they? Whether that person is in enough control of themselves is one thing, as is how much effort someone puts in once they find their patterns are not working for them.

[OTH]

demonstrated on MRI/ CT, biopsy or autopsy.

www.nimh.nih.gov/science-news/2008/emotion-regulating-circuit-weakened-in-borderline-personality-disorder.shtml

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=s_3Iq5F95Xg

[johnnyonthespot]

N =12, compared to 12 placebo.

Hypothesis generating, at best.

[heights14]

Awesome topic with very perceptive posts.    

This board has been extremely helpful to me.   Looking at myself and my actions to avoid repeating mistakes instead of blaming my ex-girlfriend who was diagnosed with BPD is important to grow and evolve.

However, it is still hard for me to understand how she (ex BPD girlfriend) knew and understood how it was wrong to drink and drive, steal, or comit murder.  She understood if you made a purchase with a credit card, you must be able to eventually pay for it.  If she understood these things, how could she not understand how it was wrong to talk badly about someone you love or hurt someone you love like we all have experienced?