These frogs just realized the water is boiling...what to do now?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This week was an eye-opener for us on how my stepdaughter is being affected by her mom, and we aren't sure what to do.  I feel like the frog on the stove - the water is being turned up so slowly that you don't notice until all of a sudden you're boiling.  I'm grateful to this site (and Stop Walking on Eggshells) because finally everything makes sense.

H and I have been married 5 years.  His daughter, M, is 10.  He has joint custody with 50/50 possession, with xW as primary.  We have M every Thur/Fri/Sat and every other Sunday. (xW often works weekends.)

xW has been diagnosed with severe anxiety, but the more I read, the more convinced I am that she is undiagnosed BPD - a hermit. xW was forcibly committed 2 years ago after she visited the ER for a physical issue (we believe the commitment was for suicidal ideation, but aren't sure).  We kept M full-time for a few weeks and then eased eased back into the 50/50 as xW recovered.  She was better for almost a year, then seemed to get worse (acting dissociated with H, sleeping all the time, per M).  We were relieved when xW moved in with her parents last summer. GF is an invalid. GM spends a lot of time with M and appears to have taken over clothes shopping and other responsibilities; xW works odd shifts and is not always home when M is there. 

She's a compliant kid so she's rarely in trouble.  Any criticism, however mild, can cause 20 minutes of sobbing. We suspected this was due to being overindulged when with her mom, but now I wonder if she's been subjected to BPD behaviors.   I've worked with her a lot on managing her emotions and taking timeouts when you get flooded, and there's been a lot of improvement in her emotional resiliency over the last few years.

My existence is a huge trigger for xW.  She's tried in the past to alienate M against me, but M resists.  xW is starting to do it towards H very mildly.  M will occasionally bring up the cognitive dissonance of what xW says and what she sees, and we talk about trusting her own eyes and ears, that different people can interpret the exact same thing in different ways, and it's okay to look at someone else's viewpoint and decide that doesn't work for me. Mostly these conversations are with me, not H.  I guess she considers me more neutral?

H is careful not to initiate conversations with xW unless M is with us, so that M is not exposed to a potential meltdown.  She has occasionally been caught in some (xW will call M's phone and tell her what to tell her daddy, or will continually call H's phone and rant even though he's told her M is right there).  H talked to M those times about the fact that her mom sometimes has trouble regulating her emotions and that it isn't her fault or her responsibility to fix it.   

Monday, xW spiraled when M told her that H and I had talked about whether M might need allergy testing.  H confirmed the conversation and suggested testing take place in a few weeks. She started ranting and calling me names; he hung up.

30 minutes later, M called H in tears.  She'd tried to reassure xW that she was a good mom, but "it's not working and I don't know what to do."  He managed to calm her down.

xW called the Domestic Violence hotline and told H that they said she had the power to make medical decisions for M (um... .not in dispute).  She then called H and asked if he wanted her to take M to the ER or call 9-1-1, because the pediatrician's office was closed.  She kept insisting there needed to be a 3-way call with xW and H and M.  He told her to let M go to bed (it was 9:30 pm on a school night) and reiterated that this was not an emergency.

She told H she didn't want to get the allergy testing because if M was allergic to something at her house (cats) then she'd never see M again.  Plus, allergy testing hurts.

She finally agreed to it, but said H had to bring her because she knew he wouldn't believe the results if she did it.

The next day, she told H that *I* needed to decide whether or not M should get the HPV vaccine.  She texted me about it, and I trotted out my standard response that those decisions are between the two of them. 

Now she's asking H whether or not he is going to bring M back this weekend, and whether or not she's allowed to go to M's school concert next week. He responded that it's her Sunday and ignored the rest (she does this for EVERY school event).  She's started using M's phone to call or text H.

H has decided to put M in therapy with a DBT-trained professional ASAP, and tell xW about it next Friday, in the hopes that the meltdown will be over by the time M goes back on Sunday.

After this week, I don't trust xW to make medical decisions for M.  I'm also very concerned about her calling the DV hotline.  (xW is a former CPS caseworker... .)

We aren't sure if we're at a point where H should ask for a custody modification, either for H to have sole medical decision-making powers, or for H to be the new primary (which would necessitate M changing schools; we live 15 minutes away in another town.  M has friends in our neighborhood that go to that school, and my 2 biokids are in this school system.), with or without changing possession times.

I don't know whether this fits the legal standard for changing the agreement in out state, but I doubt xW will fight any motion he makes - he thinks she will just hand over their daughter completely ("throw her away" and descend into victimhood.  We do not want an outcome that results in M never seeing her mother.  That's not healthy for M. 

The spiraling that will occur if he files a motion will also not be healthy for M to be around, and I fully expect that to last weeks and result in hospitalization.

Since M rarely talks about her mom at our house (other than to volunteer things her mom says about me), we don't know how often M is exposed to other meltdowns or BPD behaviors. H gets her back tonight, but I don't know whether it is appropriate for him to ask her more probing questions.  I kinda think we should leave that for the therapist.  We don't know whether to wait for a therapist's feedback to take additional action.    Or... .? 

I'd appreciate any advice.

[worriedStepmom]

This week was an eye-opener for us on how my stepdaughter is being affected by her mom, and we aren't sure what to do.  I feel like the frog on the stove - the water is being turned up so slowly that you don't notice until all of a sudden you're boiling.  I'm grateful to this site (and Stop Walking on Eggshells) because finally everything makes sense.

H and I have been married 5 years.  His daughter, M, is 10.  He has joint custody with 50/50 possession, with xW as primary.  We have M every Thur/Fri/Sat and every other Sunday. (xW often works weekends.)

xW has been diagnosed with severe anxiety, but the more I read, the more convinced I am that she is undiagnosed BPD - a hermit. xW was forcibly committed 2 years ago after she visited the ER for a physical issue (we believe the commitment was for suicidal ideation, but aren't sure).  We kept M full-time for a few weeks and then eased eased back into the 50/50 as xW recovered.  She was better for almost a year, then seemed to get worse (acting dissociated with H, sleeping all the time, per M).  We were relieved when xW moved in with her parents last summer. GF is an invalid. GM spends a lot of time with M and appears to have taken over clothes shopping and other responsibilities; xW works odd shifts and is not always home when M is there. 

She's a compliant kid so she's rarely in trouble.  Any criticism, however mild, can cause 20 minutes of sobbing. We suspected this was due to being overindulged when with her mom, but now I wonder if she's been subjected to BPD behaviors.   I've worked with her a lot on managing her emotions and taking timeouts when you get flooded, and there's been a lot of improvement in her emotional resiliency over the last few years.

My existence is a huge trigger for xW.  She's tried in the past to alienate M against me, but M resists.  xW is starting to do it towards H very mildly.  M will occasionally bring up the cognitive dissonance of what xW says and what she sees, and we talk about trusting her own eyes and ears, that different people can interpret the exact same thing in different ways, and it's okay to look at someone else's viewpoint and decide that doesn't work for me. Mostly these conversations are with me, not H.  I guess she considers me more neutral?

H is careful not to initiate conversations with xW unless M is with us, so that M is not exposed to a potential meltdown.  She has occasionally been caught in some (xW will call M's phone and tell her what to tell her daddy, or will continually call H's phone and rant even though he's told her M is right there).  H talked to M those times about the fact that her mom sometimes has trouble regulating her emotions and that it isn't her fault or her responsibility to fix it.   

Monday, xW spiraled when M told her that H and I had talked about whether M might need allergy testing.  H confirmed the conversation and suggested testing take place in a few weeks. She started ranting and calling me names; he hung up.

30 minutes later, M called H in tears.  She'd tried to reassure xW that she was a good mom, but "it's not working and I don't know what to do."  He managed to calm her down.

xW called the Domestic Violence hotline and told H that they said she had the power to make medical decisions for M (um... .not in dispute).  She then called H and asked if he wanted her to take M to the ER or call 9-1-1, because the pediatrician's office was closed.  She kept insisting there needed to be a 3-way call with xW and H and M.  He told her to let M go to bed (it was 9:30 pm on a school night) and reiterated that this was not an emergency.

She told H she didn't want to get the allergy testing because if M was allergic to something at her house (cats) then she'd never see M again.  Plus, allergy testing hurts.

She finally agreed to it, but said H had to bring her because she knew he wouldn't believe the results if she did it.

The next day, she told H that *I* needed to decide whether or not M should get the HPV vaccine.  She texted me about it, and I trotted out my standard response that those decisions are between the two of them. 

Now she's asking H whether or not he is going to bring M back this weekend, and whether or not she's allowed to go to M's school concert next week. He responded that it's her Sunday and ignored the rest (she does this for EVERY school event).  She's started using M's phone to call or text H.

H has decided to put M in therapy with a DBT-trained professional ASAP, and tell xW about it next Friday, in the hopes that the meltdown will be over by the time M goes back on Sunday.

After this week, I don't trust xW to make medical decisions for M.  I'm also very concerned about her calling the DV hotline.  (xW is a former CPS caseworker... .)

We aren't sure if we're at a point where H should ask for a custody modification, either for H to have sole medical decision-making powers, or for H to be the new primary (which would necessitate M changing schools; we live 15 minutes away in another town.  M has friends in our neighborhood that go to that school, and my 2 biokids are in this school system.), with or without changing possession times.

I don't know whether this fits the legal standard for changing the agreement in out state, but I doubt xW will fight any motion he makes - he thinks she will just hand over their daughter completely ("throw her away" and descend into victimhood.  We do not want an outcome that results in M never seeing her mother.  That's not healthy for M. 

The spiraling that will occur if he files a motion will also not be healthy for M to be around, and I fully expect that to last weeks and result in hospitalization.

Since M rarely talks about her mom at our house (other than to volunteer things her mom says about me), we don't know how often M is exposed to other meltdowns or BPD behaviors. H gets her back tonight, but I don't know whether it is appropriate for him to ask her more probing questions.  I kinda think we should leave that for the therapist.  We don't know whether to wait for a therapist's feedback to take additional action.    Or... .? 

I'd appreciate any advice.

[Nope]

Hi fellow step mom. 

What I'm getting from reading this is that there is a lot of concern over Xw's reaction if your DH decides to involve the court. Does your DH share your concerns about that? Ultimately we can't control how someone else will react, we can only do the best we can do. It sounds like Xw is a powder keg waiting to go off at the slightest hint that someone might view her as a bad mother. But it also seems like she really wants other people to be the decision makers. She is even going so far as to try and pull you in as a decision maker.

My DH and I never found it useful to ask the kid's leading questions about what goes on in their mom's house. For starters, they both would lie (even to counselors) to protect their mom. But also, the only things that matter to the courts are the things that can be proven with some sort of physical evidence. So even if your SD had the capacity to tell you the full depth of what she is suffering at her mom's it wouldn't be useful in court.

As for making the decision about whether or not to ask court for a modification, my advice is to go with your gut. SD10 is about to become a preteen and she is going to need a lot of help and guidance going forward. She has a lot more years of growing up to do. As a step mom you are in a unique position to step back and look objectively at her best interests.

[worriedStepmom]

I did spew a lot, didn't I?  H is also worried about xW's reactions.

H brought M to the park tonight to hang out together.  He asked her how she felt about Monday.  He said she burst into tears and then talked nonstop for a while.  She told him the reason she's always tired here is that she doesn't sleep well at her mom's house because her mom has been articulating suicidal thoughts and M wants to protect her.   

M agreed that she wants to see a therapist. 

H is going to call a lawyer for a consult.  He wants to find out what kind of evidence we need for what kind of modification.

We don't have a clue what kind of modification to even ask for/document towards, or how to even figure out what balance is best for M.

[ForeverDad]

As Nope stated, what you have control over is what you do.  And you can't fret overmuch about what mother will do or not do in response to H's decisions.  Your SD comes first when it comes to parenting decisions, her mother is lower on the priority list.  What she does or doesn't do, whatever chaos she churns, SD takes priority.  If it means her mother is a lesser influence in her life, well, that's life.  When there are no other good solutions you do what you must.

Courts generally resist making one parent the custodial parent, they like joint custody because it shouldn't make the other parent feel shut out.  One question to ask the lawyer is whether there is anything like Decision Making or Tie Breaker status that can be added to the order in your case.  Custody is still joint but father doesn't have to struggle with getting mother to agree.  Depending on which is selected, he either asks or informs mother and then he can proceed.  Sounds like her 'hermit' personality will go along with that.  The court will know that if she disagrees with one of H's decisions as DM/TB then she always has the option of contesting it in court.  The point is that SD's needs are addressed more promptly.

Courts love counseling.  If mother opposes, it would be a relatively straightforward matter to get that addressed in court.

If mother will not oppose any action in court, could he thrash out with the lawyer the new terms needed to adjust the current order, write it up as simply (gently) worded as possible (without extra blaming or triggering, "hey, xW we need to adjust some things... ." and get it submitted to court as an updated agreement?  Sure, court will ask both, including xW, whether they agree to it, but if she avoids conflict then she's unlikely to renege at the last second.

Sounds like he should be primary parent, have DM or TB to avoid hassle of court delays and costs.  What about the equal parenting time?  Should dad get majority or should it be worded that it stays 50/50 but dad is flexible and will take SD additional time as circumstances arise.  The problem with that is xW may still get child support even though dad ends up with majority time.  Does he currently pay child support?  In my state once I got majority time my xW stopped getting CS.

[worriedStepmom]

In our state, with joint custody each parent has the right to make medical decisions.   H and xW's informal agreement is that primary parent takes care of medical appointments/decisions and the other parent takes care of dental appointments.  Mental health wasn't specified... .so H can take SD10 to counseling when she is with us without needing xW's explicit consent.   

Child support is not a concern.  Here, it's generally awarded to the parent that has the child 50%+1 day, so he currently pays, and we don't have a problem continuing to pay even if time of possession changes.  xW makes very little, and that money helps ensure SD10's lifestyle isn't at polar extremes at her two houses.  We would never ask for child support from xW.

We've decided to ask for primary.  This would mean SD10 would change schools to our district, that she'd be on our health insurance (currently she's on CHIP because xW threw a fit about using ours), and we'd write in that H is responsible for medical and mental health care, and xW can be in charge of dental.

I think we need to go to a 70/30 parenting time unless/until xW is actively pursuing some form of treatment.   As long as she is articulating suicidal thoughts to SD10, she doesn't need to be around SD10 much. 

How did y'all decide when to ask for more than 50/50 parenting time?  How do you decide what changes need to be documented before reverting back to a more equitable parenting time?

[GaGrl]

Would suicide ideation be the basis for the custody change?  How will you document that for court?

[ForeverDad]

I'm an advocate for asking more than we expect to get.  Most here feel like we need to be overly fair and that fine quality sabotages us when we're facing a parent who demands everything.  So I give an example of us asking for fair 50/50 and the ex demanding 99/01.  Odds are the judge would have both parents 'lose' and issue an order halfway in between, that is standard alternate weekends and an evening or overnight in between.  That's why it is good to ask for more and provide supporting documentation knowing in the typical case you wouldn't get everything.

So don't feel bad at all seeking majority authority or majority time.  That is what makes sense and is right for SD.  And in your case she's not likely to strongly oppose what H files anyway, or so it seems thus far.  As long as H doesn't appear like a mean or vindictive father or mother cast as a victim then it should go well.  We don't get many stories like that (lesser conflict) around here.

Gagrl is spot on.  Suicidal comments should not be discounted or minimized.  Mental health history does impact on whether a parent should be primary.  Suicidal ideation can indicate a real mental health issue or, conversely, control/manipulation designs.  Typically what is recounted here by most members are control/manipulation/guilting attempts.  This xW described here is probably sincerely acting-in, causing herself harm more than aimed at others.  But there is still an impact on SD and parenting overall.  There probably is need to address xW's need for mental health monitoring, such as with a therapist.

Beware of the typical court approach where therapy is ordered but any restrictions are lifted once the person has made progress.  The problem is that court doesn't figure in the probability of relapses or failed therapy, that is, you have to go back to court to get restrictions or cautions ordered again.  Ponder whether H can have some trust or authority granted to reinstate less visitation using his good judgment.  Sure, xW could always contest it in court but he'd have her therapist's input to support his decisions.

For example, he should have some ability to message xW "You've been having a hard time lately, why don't you have D just one overnight this week and see how that goes?  That would work for D too since she has to focus on class work this week."  Her hermit perceptions may accept calmly worded offers like that.

Of course, don't put SD in the middle having to decide.  Listen to SD's thoughts and concerns but make sure H issues the decisions so SD isn't caught in the middle or feels at fault or blamed.

[DreamGirl]

So, just an observation I have.

It seems like when you asked for her to go for allergy testing this triggered her "I'm not doing enough as a mom"... .and your husband spent a considerable amount of energy calming that for her.  

So if you ask for primary custody? I wonder how extreme of a reaction that would cause?

I say that only because sometimes it's easier if she can just agree rather then go straight to court and cite reasons that she probably will ultimately deny anyways. My stepkids mom tends to re-write history as a coping skill.

Is there a covert way to perhaps suggest that she go to the school near you?

We had primary custody of the oldest stepdaughter and it was GREAT for their relatioship (mom and SD) because there was far less stress involved. He basically said to mom "give yourself a break, you were such a hard working mom when she was little ---- let me deal with the sassy teenager and you enjoy her on the weekends".

Didn't change child support.

Got to parent her in a far better environment then at her mom's.

Everybody wins.

 

[worriedStepmom]

Unfortunately, the only documentation we have on xW's suicide ideation is SD10's comments to H.

We do have documentation (recordings and text) about xW's inability to make rational medical decisions (at least initially) and xW trying to drag SD10 into her meltdowns with H.  We're also looking at school records to see if there's a pattern of xW pulling SD10 out of school for no reason.

A few years ago we suggested that SD10 switch to our school district, as xW had just taken a job working nights.  That did not go over well; she quit her job a few weeks later.  Since then, xW has talked about moving, but she refuses to move to our school district because she said that gives us too much control.  For her, that's what it boils down to. (xW once screamed at me because she discovered I made school lunches for SD on Friday mornings when SD was with us.  xW said she would pay for school lunches so I couldn't steal her daughter with peanut butter sandwiches.   )

I expect a fairly extreme reaction this weekend when she finds out he wants SD10 to go to counseling. We're planning to turn off all the phones after H talks to xW.

If H asks for any change in legal orders, I suspect that xW will end up hospitalized.  That is not the desired outcome, but part of me wonders if then she'll get the help that she needs to be healthier.

I like the idea of asking for xW to get therapy and to have some authority for H to dial back visits if he deems it necessary.  That would actually ease SD's mind a great deal - she asked H if he could get help for her mom.  He told her that SD was his priority right now but if he could find a way to get her mom help, he would.

[ForeverDad]

I suspect hospitalization, past or current, would be a matter xW can't hide from the court, especially if you have dates and places.  While that in itself may not halt parenting time, it should be a factor when considering the changes your H needs in the order.

Too, frankly, if she needs help, let her get it, be all for it.

Courts love counseling.  (Just ensure that the counselor is capable and is aware of potential overreactions by mother.)  Hopefully SD will open up to the counselor about what goes on at her mother's home, well, the contrast between homes.  Many counselors and therapists are reluctant or even refuse to testify in court, partly to avoid an appearance of revealing confidences and partly to avoid being sued or complaints made to the licensing boards.  However, if an evaluator is assigned to the case then the evaluator certainly can discuss matters with SD's counselor to aid in making a recommendation to the court.

[DreamGirl]

I agree --- I think it's important to remember that a diagnosis of mental illness is not grounds for a custody change or a loss of parenting time.

The suicide attempts can be a factor as far as the well being of your stepdaughter. Especially if she's involving her.  

Too, frankly, if she needs help, let her get it, be all for it.

Here's the thing for me ---- keeping in mind everyone is different and these mamas are all different ---- the more I let her feel comfortable about that we aren't some huge threat to her as a mom, the better the situation is and the less she is bound and determined to prove her worth. 

She confided in me in a few years ago in that she was getting a full evaluation done (physical, psychiatric) and that she was terrified of the results. All I told her is that I think it was great and that there shouldn't be so much stigmatism around it. That I was a huge advocate of therapy and if meds were going to help with her anxiety that I was happy for her... .

I want her to be as healthy as she can possibly be. If that means that we take the girls a few extra nights or pay a few extra dollars so she can pay for her therapist? Where do I sign? What can I do to help?

She's gotta want it though and she's gotta want it for herself.

And that's the catch22 of BPD. It's really, really hard to deal with... .and a pwBPD is "emotionally sunburnt" where the feelings are that much more intense. It's why every perceived slight is blown so out of proportion.

I try to keep that in mind as often as I can... .

[worriedStepmom]

DreamGirl, I'm so impressed that you seem to have such a good working relationship with the ex.

I'd settle for not being a constant trigger to xW, but we have yet to figure out how to change that.  Anything that H says to her about SD that isn't "can we switch these dates" has the potential to cause a meltdown, and then he spends an hour reassuring her that we don't want to take SD away, that there's no reason for anyone to take SD away, and CPS would laugh at us if we called (which we wouldn't do) because she's a good mom.

Now he feels so guilty that he's planning to see a lawyer because he feels like he's breaking promises.  I keep reminding him that nothing has to be permanent - if she can get herself healthy (and stay that way), there's no reason not to go back to what they have now.

[DreamGirl]

Anything that H says to her about SD that isn't "can we switch these dates" has the potential to cause a meltdown, and then he spends an hour reassuring her that we don't want to take SD away, that there's no reason for anyone to take SD away, and CPS would laugh at us if we called (which we wouldn't do) because she's a good mom.

So I think this is where the eggshell part comes in. We shouldn't have our own panic attacks every time we want to bring up a difficult subject that needs to be discussed... .and in turn she can have meltdowns if that's what she needs to do. But we can't get all caught up in that drama either.

I think it's great that he's reassuring her.

But sometimes we shouldn't validate the invalid. CPS wouldn't really laugh at you. And when you're dragging your daughter into your crap at 10 years old, you're not being a good mom... .

Have you seen our tools on validation?

[worriedStepmom]

Have you seen our tools on validation?

I've been reading those this week.  There's a lot of wonderful stuff on this website, and I'm seeing changes that H can make in communicating - switching to validation from "make her shut up" mode.  We have a lot to talk about this week.