How to stop the impulsive cycle?

[mikejones75093]

If you've seen my past posts my spouse has been making big financial purchases on impulse and emotion.  This lead to me getting angry and not speaking with her.  That has caused her to be extremely defensive.

Now it's come to we are selling and moving are you coming or not.  Every time I try to reason with her it's an excuse.  Bottom line is that a move will cost us more money, be much less quality of a home, too small of a space.  Overall it's a terrible decision, and will be bad for our family in numerous ways.  She thinks this will make her happy, but we all know it won't and something else will pop up.

Is there a way to break this cycle?  Normally she flips out for a week then moves on.  She's calling realtors to look at our house.  I went to a counselor that told me to bite the bullet and just listen, but at some point I have to stop this.  I don't want divorce but this move is just bad.

[grootyoda]

She thinks this will make her happy, but we all know it won't and something else will pop up

I am far from an experienced hand at all this, but I think this is a key insight. I had almost exactly the same conflict with my BPDw about the house we lived in. The layout is terrible, it’s too small, none of the features are up to date or high grade enough, etc. There was a kernel of truth in her complaints, but I had the same feeling as you, and also knew the financial circumstances weren’t ideal to buy into anything that would be a meaningful upgrade.

I don’t have any real sage advice for you here, other than listen to your gut about the whole “will this make them happy” thing. I agree with your C that you should listen and give requests genuine consideration, but that doesn’t mean you have to ultimately say yes. Be prepared for there to be blowback on your no, but don’t let it stop you from saying no if you genuinely feel that is the best answer for you to give for yourself.

[ForeverDad]

I agree with your C that you should listen and give requests genuine consideration, but that doesn’t mean you have to ultimately say yes. Be prepared for there to be blowback on your no, but don’t let it stop you from saying no if you genuinely feel that is the best answer for you to give for yourself.

Did you get clear advice?  Counselor is expecting you to listen but not to actually agree to crazymaking if you have real worries?  If not, is this a counselor you trust, who has an in-depth awareness of your situation?  (If this counselor isn't a good fit for you, you can choose another.)  A counselor is to help You with objective observations, not to appease or make a bad deal.

There's not much you can do if she's using her own income when making "big financial purchases on impulse and emotion".  However, if it is marital funds she's using, then yes you should step in.

If marital funds, then how is she managing to spend so much?

• If from a marital bank account, you need to have a separate personal account your earnings go into from which you pay marital expenses such as mortgage, car loans, etc.  Funds for food and clothing expenses can be shifted from your personal account to the marital account.
• If she is a cardholder on your personal credit account then you have to impose a spending limit on her card or suspend it.
• If from a joint credit account, that's more complicated.  Many companies won't close the account until it is fully paid... while she of course keeps adding charges.

[Notwendy]

I wish I knew that answer too.

If anyone has one, I'd like to know.

Dad passed away and as the law has it, all funds went to BPD mother. She's made a mess out of it. And she insists on being in control.

She's very elderly now, in assisted living. We have spent weeks trying to sort out the chaos.  She's still considered to be "legally mentally competent" and as social services has described it "legally competent to make her own bad decisions".

I have mentioned that the way my father dealt with this was a lopsided family budget- because he couldn't do anything to stop it. He made a good salary- we weren't low income but it felt like we were strapped. In high school, I realized that he had gone into debt. When it was just the two of them, he only spent modestly on himself.

BPD mother is from the era where women didn't work outside the home. Dad planned well for their retirement and managed to save some. It would have been enough for anyone who could be rational and frugal with it.

BPD is a disorder of emotional regulation and the poor emotional regulation drives behavior. We can't separate this from the person. It's part of the package- the good, the amazing side that people are attracted to, but for my mother, she's severely disordered too and this drives her impulsive behaviors.

While we don't post "run" messages in terms of relationships, when it comes to money, the only safeguard I can think of is, if you plant to stay together, then what can you do to separate your finances? This is tough in states where marital property and debt is shared between spouses. When spending is emotionally driven, you need to be the one to be in control.

[mikejones75093]

Did you get clear advice?  Counselor is expecting you to listen but not to actually agree to crazymaking if you have real worries?  If not, is this a counselor you trust, who has an in-depth awareness of your situation?  (If this counselor isn't a good fit for you, you can choose another.)  A counselor is to help You with objective observations, not to appease or make a bad deal.

There's not much you can do if she's using her own income when making "big financial purchases on impulse and emotion".  However, if it is marital funds she's using, then yes you should step in.

If marital funds, then how is she managing to spend so much?

• If from a marital bank account, you need to have a separate personal account your earnings go into from which you pay marital expenses such as mortgage, car loans, etc.  Funds for food and clothing expenses can be shifted from your personal account to the marital account.
• If she is a cardholder on your personal credit account then you have to impose a spending limit on her card or suspend it.
• If from a joint credit account, that's more complicated.  Many companies won't close the account until it is fully paid... while she of course keeps adding charges.

I saw the counselor once and it was a consultation.  She seemed good.  I set up to go once a week but only so much I could learn in 1 hour.

From what I got, the way I am speaking to her is probably making her defensive.

What I don't know is how do you tell her what she doesn't want to hear without triggering her.  Haven't got there yet in our session.

As far as the money it's in joint accounts.  Her episodes normally aren't this extended or extreme.  It's almost like she's manic and super focused on one thing.  She told me her anxiety is through the roof and her chest was hurting.

Not getting worked up, listening, and letting her know I hear her all without defending myself has calmed her anger towards me, but it's not breaking this cycle and I think confusing her as me agreeing with everything.

She's very sensitive to counseling or mental health dr because in my opinion they'll "find out" what's wrong, but she needs some anti anxiety meds or something to cool her down and help her focus on other things in life.   She's 24/7 we are moving and does nothing else during the day but focus on that.  On her phone looking at listings all day and texting the realtor.  And i mean all day.  I woke up in the middle of the night and she was still on the phone searching.  No balance at all.  We were supposed to schedule a few things and figure out how I can help more, but we never got around to it, she's too busy looking at houses.

[mikejones75093]

I wish I knew that answer too.

If anyone has one, I'd like to know.

Dad passed away and as the law has it, all funds went to BPD mother. She's made a mess out of it. And she insists on being in control.

She's very elderly now, in assisted living. We have spent weeks trying to sort out the chaos.  She's still considered to be "legally mentally competent" and as social services has described it "legally competent to make her own bad decisions".

I have mentioned that the way my father dealt with this was a lopsided family budget- because he couldn't do anything to stop it. He made a good salary- we weren't low income but it felt like we were strapped. In high school, I realized that he had gone into debt. When it was just the two of them, he only spent modestly on himself.

BPD mother is from the era where women didn't work outside the home. Dad planned well for their retirement and managed to save some. It would have been enough for anyone who could be rational and frugal with it.

BPD is a disorder of emotional regulation and the poor emotional regulation drives behavior. We can't separate this from the person. It's part of the package- the good, the amazing side that people are attracted to, but for my mother, she's severely disordered too and this drives her impulsive behaviors.

While we don't post "run" messages in terms of relationships, when it comes to money, the only safeguard I can think of is, if you plant to stay together, then what can you do to separate your finances? This is tough in states where marital property and debt is shared between spouses. When spending is emotionally driven, you need to be the one to be in control.

I hear you on that.  Right now she is almost manic for lack of a better word.  It's normally a week of anger then move on and she acts like it never happened.

Right now she is HYPER focused on 1 thing and that's it.  It's also been going on for a month.  She told me her anxiety was extreme and her chest was hurting.  Also told me she didn't know what to do about all of this.

Just don't know if there are ways to break this extreme cycle.  Has a session with a counselor but it was my first one and only so much we can go over in an hour.

Taught me a little about talking to her and keeping calm, not making her defensive.  I feel like this has helped some but she's still out of it. 

[Notwendy]

IMHO, this is anxiety driven and projection. I have observed my mother decide on the one thing she has to have- to somehow solve some feeling for her. When she gets it though, the relief isn't long lasting and then there's something else she "has" to have. I have observed her to do this not only materially but when she wants us to do something or wants something. She HAS to have it and it's constant. She's relentless. I can understand why my father just gave in after a while, to have some moment of peace- but also that didn't last long once she had to have something else. There's an OCD quality to this, it's obsessive, but OCD behavior is anxiety driven.

Of the things I can recall that she had to have: a nice vacation ( several times) -one of them was "essential" to save their marriage because "your father is so stressed from work". (not) Dad didn't have the money for this, he borrowed it, and we all had to come. I was home on a summer break from college, and working myself but somehow I "had" to quit my job to come on this "vacation". If she buys something, it has to be the "best" and her idea of the "best" is what some random person says is the best. She wanted a new computer and asked the teen age boy in her neighborhood what he liked.

Of course his idea of a good computer was a gaming one with all the functions and she doesn't use them. I went out with Dad to find it and found one on sale that did everything she'd need at about half the cost. I suggested it to him and he snapped in a stressed manner. "No, we have the get the exact one she wants". Logic didn't apply here.

The car. She hasn't driven in decades but won't admit to it.  Dad drove it.  After he passed away, she kept that car, maintaining that she wanted to be able to drive it if she felt like it. We finally sold it for her and put the money into her bank account. No she didn't keep it for sentimental reasons. She's disposed of most of my father's possessions. Even recently she was telling people she had driven it which isn't true at all. She wants to give others  the impression she drives it.

I could predict there's a high probability that if you agree to move, your wife will feel relieved in the moment. You will move, spend the money, and things may settle for a bit but not for long. The emotions that drove this "desire" are not solved by her attaining it, because that isn't the reason for them in the first place. The outcome for you is a new house you don't want and a financial loss.

[Notwendy]

I don't believe there's a way to stop this cycle any more than there's a way to change someone's eye color, or height- this is who they are. We are having similar conflicts with BPD mother and we aren't in a situation where our finances are involved. Her behavior is impacting her own well being. It's self destructive and reckless. When we try to talk to her about it, due to her victim perspective, she just thinks we are picking on her. We, her family, have done all we can to try to get her to understand our concern for her but if she isn't concerned enough to change her behavior, there's no changing that.

[mikejones75093]

IMHO, this is anxiety driven and projection. I have observed my mother decide on the one thing she has to have- to somehow solve some feeling for her. When she gets it though, the relief isn't long lasting and then there's something else she "has" to have. I have observed her to do this not only materially but when she wants us to do something or wants something. She HAS to have it and it's constant. She's relentless. I can understand why my father just gave in after a while, to have some moment of peace- but also that didn't last long once she had to have something else. There's an OCD quality to this, it's obsessive, but OCD behavior is anxiety driven.

Of the things I can recall that she had to have: a nice vacation ( several times) -one of them was "essential" to save their marriage because "your father is so stressed from work". (not) Dad didn't have the money for this, he borrowed it, and we all had to come. I was home on a summer break from college, and working myself but somehow I "had" to quit my job to come on this "vacation". If she buys something, it has to be the "best" and her idea of the "best" is what some random person says is the best. She wanted a new computer and asked the teen age boy in her neighborhood what he liked.

Of course his idea of a good computer was a gaming one with all the functions and she doesn't use them. I went out with Dad to find it and found one on sale that did everything she'd need at about half the cost. I suggested it to him and he snapped in a stressed manner. "No, we have the get the exact one she wants". Logic didn't apply here.

The car. She hasn't driven in decades but won't admit to it.  Dad drove it.  After he passed away, she kept that car, maintaining that she wanted to be able to drive it if she felt like it. We finally sold it for her and put the money into her bank account. No she didn't keep it for sentimental reasons. She's disposed of most of my father's possessions. Even recently she was telling people she had driven it which isn't true at all. She wants to give others  the impression she drives it.

I could predict there's a high probability that if you agree to move, your wife will feel relieved in the moment. You will move, spend the money, and things may settle for a bit but not for long. The emotions that drove this "desire" are not solved by her attaining it, because that isn't the reason for them in the first place. The outcome for you is a new house you don't want and a financial loss.

That's wild.  Normally she's not like this.  I have find a way to calm her down.  If putting my foot down causes divorce, a high conflict person like her might cost me $50k.  If we move it will be bad too.  She needs to get on Xanax or something.

[ForeverDad]

I could predict there's a high probability that if you agree to move, your wife will feel relieved in the moment. You will move, spend the money, and things may settle for a bit but not for long. The emotions that drove this "desire" are not solved by her attaining it, because that isn't the reason for them in the first place. The outcome for you is a new house you don't want and a financial loss.

Note that Notwendy writes from the perspective of an unchosen relationship - you don't get to choose your parents nor fully unchoose them.  Your difficulty is a spouse, someone you chose and if you wish then you could divorce, though if there are children then that to can't be fully unchosen.

Just don't know if there are ways to break this extreme cycle.  Had a session with a counselor but it was my first one and only so much we can go over in an hour.

I have to be frank.  My marriage was quickly imploding the last couple years.  I'd been married for over a decade but having a child accelerated the dysfunction.  I knew there could be a train wreck ahead but was powerless to keep avoiding it.  Yes, I had been clueless and didn't realize that having children to fix serious mental issues didn't really fix problems but merely complicated existing ones.  (Of course, having children isn't the only cause marriages fail, in mine it was an accelerating factor.)

Good thing in my case is that I didn't have a joint credit card.  Rather, I wanted her to have her own credit and so was happy when we both had our own credit accounts.  But we had a joint bank account.  Money wasn't our biggest issue but when I had to put my paycheck into a new personal account so I could scramble to get a car loan for a car I had just purchased, there was a huge blow-up and surely it was a trigger that hastened our unavoidable marital train wreck a few months later.

My thought is that if you do something similar to avoid or limit a financial disaster, then it won't really cause a divorce but will merely be moving it sooner.  If you do ponder an appease or delay action, it may be a matter of "will it be before or after a financial disaster?"

While we don't post "run" messages in terms of relationships, when it comes to money, the only safeguard I can think of is, if you plan to stay together, then what can you do to separate your finances? This is tough in states where marital property and debt is shared between spouses. When spending is emotionally driven, you need to be the one to be in control.

Privately and confidentially get consultations with a few financial and family law attorneys so you know where you stand financially and legally.  Get your ducks in a row so you're as protected as possible, both as a person and as a parent.

She needs to get on Xanax or something.

Meds may moderate her behaviors but the real help comes from diligently applying therapy in her life, a lengthy task that she may refuse.  She's an adult, you can't force her to do something she doesn't want to do.  However, the good thing is that you're an adult too and you can, when necessary, make choices too.

[Notwendy]

My father also said divorce was too expensive but the money spent on my mother's wishes over time, was more than a divorce would have cost.  He didn't talk much about her to us, which is appropriate. But teens being who they are- we eventually asked as we became more aware of the financial issues and others. This is the answer he gave us. The other answer was because she'd get custody of us. That was true in their era, and it wouldn't have been good for us. However, we grew up, and he stayed. I think both these reasons are compelling ones, but I I believe his reasons were many more than that because.

My guess is that this new home move will cost you a lot more than 50K. So, it may be risking 50K to put your foot down, but if we are thinking in dollars, that is minimal compared to changing houses. You don't know for certain she will follow through on the divorce threat, but even if she does, 50K is less than a new house.

And if you can't say no to her now, what will you do if she asks you for something else? Because these "needs" of hers are emotionally driven, I new home won't be the long term solution.

[mikejones75093]

Note that Notwendy writes from the perspective of an unchosen relationship - you don't get to choose your parents nor fully unchoose them.  Your difficulty is a spouse, someone you chose and if you wish then you could divorce, though if there are children then that to can't be fully unchosen.

I have to be frank.  My marriage was quickly imploding the last couple years.  I'd been married for over a decade but having a child accelerated the dysfunction.  I knew there could be a train wreck ahead but was powerless to keep avoiding it.  Yes, I had been clueless and didn't realize that having children to fix serious mental issues didn't really fix problems but merely complicated existing ones.  (Of course, having children isn't the only cause marriages fail, in mine it was an accelerating factor.)

Good thing in my case is that I didn't have a joint credit card.  Rather, I wanted her to have her own credit and so was happy when we both had our own credit accounts.  But we had a joint bank account.  Money wasn't our biggest issue but when I had to put my paycheck into a new personal account so I could scramble to get a car loan for a car I had just purchased, there was a huge blow-up and surely it was a trigger that hastened our unavoidable marital train wreck a few months later.

My thought is that if you do something similar to avoid or limit a financial disaster, then it won't really cause a divorce but will merely be moving it sooner.  If you do ponder an appease or delay action, it may be a matter of "will it be before or after a financial disaster?"

Privately and confidentially get consultations with a few financial and family law attorneys so you know where you stand financially and legally.  Get your ducks in a row so you're as protected as possible, both as a person and as a parent.

Meds may moderate her behaviors but the real help comes from diligently applying therapy in her life, a lengthy task that she may refuse.  She's an adult, you can't force her to do something she doesn't want to do.  However, the good thing is that you're an adult too and you can, when necessary, make choices too.

Everything you say is amazing but the kids are what's holding me back. 

If we go through this it's only a matter of time before she moves some guy in that will be around my daughter more than me.  Not really comfortable with some guy being around my daughter that much.   Her husband before me was physically violent towards her, so I don't really trust her choices.

[mikejones75093]

My father also said divorce was too expensive but the money spent on my mother's wishes over time, was more than a divorce would have cost.  He didn't talk much about her to us, which is appropriate. But teens being who they are- we eventually asked as we became more aware of the financial issues and others. This is the answer he gave us. The other answer was because she'd get custody of us. That was true in their era, and it wouldn't have been good for us. However, we grew up, and he stayed. I think both these reasons are compelling ones, but I I believe his reasons were many more than that because.

My guess is that this new home move will cost you a lot more than 50K. So, it may be risking 50K to put your foot down, but if we are thinking in dollars, that is minimal compared to changing houses. You don't know for certain she will follow through on the divorce threat, but even if she does, 50K is less than a new house.

And if you can't say no to her now, what will you do if she asks you for something else? Because these "needs" of hers are emotionally driven, I new home won't be the long term solution.

I get it, thats why I'm so torn.   If we didn't have kids I'd laugh while walking out the door.

The thought of some other guy living in the same house as my young daughter us just terrible.  I also don't trust she'll pick somebody decent but it's most guaranteed she'll find some one

[ForeverDad]

Her husband before me was physically violent towards her, so I don't really trust her choices.

Do you have documentation of the guy's physical violence?  Do you have confirmation from independent sources?

I ask because it is common for pwBPD to claim their prior relationships were abusive, ourselves included.

[Notwendy]

FD made a good point that my relationship with my BPD mother is different from a marriage in that we don't choose a parent and we can't really un-chose them. So for matters of stay or leave- it's not my experience to share. But the other point of view is that I observed this relationship over time- I am middle age- and so when it comes to issues like spending money- I can share that perspective- that with my mother with BPD-appeasing these "wants" are not a single want but that appeasing one- gives some reprieve until the next one.

Appeasing, giving in to them, doesn't work to stop the cycle. In fact, it reinforces the behavior, because the pwBPD gets what they want. If your wife knows that threatening divorce will get her something- well now she knows that doing this works. Yes, agreed - divorce has its own issues- but at the moment, for your wife, it's a threat. If she were to divorce you because you won't buy her a new home- what is this anyway?

So from my perspective, here are the choices, albeit difficult ones. Note- you are not the one deciding to divorce her.

#1 Say yes to the house- this won't change the cycle. This is likely to guarantee it will continue. There will be consequences to this, financially and also it will make saying no to her more difficult next time because her behavior is reinforced. Be prepared to say no to other things, for yourself, for your child, to keep afloat financially.

#2. Say no to the house. Your wife will react, poorly. It will be a difficult reaction. This then puts the decision of what to do about it on her. Maybe she will leave, maybe not. This will be scary, but you will see if she's actually invested in the relationship, or just that it's there to serve her needs. This won't solve her part in the cycle of wants, but it stops your reinforcing it by appeasing her. Find some way to protect your finances as best as possible.

[mikejones75093]

Do you have documentation of the guy's physical violence?  Do you have confirmation from independent sources?

I ask because it is common for pwBPD to claim their prior relationships were abusive, ourselves included.

My step son witnessed it all and told me about it.  The stories he has about it are very sad.

[mikejones75093]

FD made a good point that my relationship with my BPD mother is different from a marriage in that we don't choose a parent and we can't really un-chose them. So for matters of stay or leave- it's not my experience to share. But the other point of view is that I observed this relationship over time- I am middle age- and so when it comes to issues like spending money- I can share that perspective- that with my mother with BPD-appeasing these "wants" are not a single want but that appeasing one- gives some reprieve until the next one.

Appeasing, giving in to them, doesn't work to stop the cycle. In fact, it reinforces the behavior, because the pwBPD gets what they want. If your wife knows that threatening divorce will get her something- well now she knows that doing this works. Yes, agreed - divorce has its own issues- but at the moment, for your wife, it's a threat. If she were to divorce you because you won't buy her a new home- what is this anyway?

So from my perspective, here are the choices, albeit difficult ones. Note- you are not the one deciding to divorce her.

#1 Say yes to the house- this won't change the cycle. This is likely to guarantee it will continue. There will be consequences to this, financially and also it will make saying no to her more difficult next time because her behavior is reinforced. Be prepared to say no to other things, for yourself, for your child, to keep afloat financially.

#2. Say no to the house. Your wife will react, poorly. It will be a difficult reaction. This then puts the decision of what to do about it on her. Maybe she will leave, maybe not. This will be scary, but you will see if she's actually invested in the relationship, or just that it's there to serve her needs. This won't solve her part in the cycle of wants, but it stops your reinforcing it by appeasing her. Find some way to protect your finances as best as possible.

So she finally realized in this market buying a house was off the table.  So no divorce and no moving.  She came to me with some non negotiable demands to make it feel like home.

She wants a giant custom pool
A golf cart
A home gym
And to redo the inside of the house

I am in shock.  I mean she gets angry, yells, screams, blames me for off the wall crazy stuff, but this is something else.  Does the math not work in her head?  I keep checking behind my back for cameras,  this has to be a joke right?   Her $300k list of demands.  Just when I think it can't get anymore crazy, this happens.

[Notwendy]

If this were my mother, it would be the wish for you to do something that takes a lot of effort - something visible to her- to affirm her value to you. I get the sense from my mother that something means more to her if it is something that puts you out to do it. Just my thought.

I find that her requests have an emotional component to them. So they may not make sense logically. When you say "this is too expensive" what she hears is "you aren't worth 300 K to me". But her request, spend this money on me if you want to stay married is also devaluing to you.

The question is, how much do you want to risk your finances for this purpose?

[mikejones75093]

If this were my mother, it would be the wish for you to do something that takes a lot of effort - something visible to her- to affirm her value to you. I get the sense from my mother that something means more to her if it is something that puts you out to do it. Just my thought.

I find that her requests have an emotional component to them. So they may not make sense logically. When you say "this is too expensive" what she hears is "you aren't worth 300 K to me". But her request, spend this money on me if you want to stay married is also devaluing to you.

The question is, how much do you want to risk your finances for this purpose?

None.  I told her to apply for the loan.  I'm not on it.  This is just crazy.  She left her phone out and I saw she is telling everyone I have all this hidden money.  I consulted the attorney and he told me to calm down, it will all wash out, but this is just crazy.  She's on a campaign to ruin my name with everyone.

[Notwendy]

I don't know the laws of your state but I have heard that marital property and debt is considered as shared in many of them. So when she takes out a loan, joint accounts, both your funds are considered and if she has debt, you are also liable too. Even if she does this with her name only- it might also involve you too?

Yes- it's crazy and hurtful behavior. Your lawyer is correct in the sense of you not being reactive to her behavior in the sense that it could be an extinction burst to get her way, but if she can cause you potential financial harm by taking out a loan - protecting yourself from liability is something to ask the lawyer about.

The other issue is that you have seen this behavior now. It's a shock to see something you didn't expect. Even if this all washes out, you've seen the behavior.

[Outdorenthusiast]

Ok - chiming in here as I lurk the boards and have been wading through this impulsivity swamp, and can pass on some lessons learned…here are my two cents for what it is worth..

Lots of issues to un-pack here.

1) Boundaries
It is your right to feel safe and stable financially.  It is a core basic need in Maslow’s hierarchy of needs triangle.  It is also typical for one spouse to be frugal and one to spend more, however you have every right to protect marriage assets from emotional impulsivity, and have a secure future.  Financial abuse is not ok.

2) Protect your family financially
Here is a helpful link I found to a checklist that is helpful within the general context of protecting your family against financial impulsiveness.  (let me know if it doesn’t work and I will retype)
https://quitgamble.com/21-ways-to-protect-yourself-from-a-gambling-spouse/

3) Boundaries Round 2 - protect yourself financially.  
- Consult with a family lawyer and educate yourself about a post nuptial agreement and options to protect yourself financially.

4) Financial transparency
 - share a financial summary of where your family is and what your feelings and goals are with her.  Long term dreams (retirement etc.)
- don’t give out account passwords, but she has the right to 50% of your marital assets right now, so she will need to know what they are one way or another.  This will also take the wind out of her sails about “secret bank accounts”. Your lawyer would tell you to do this anyway.

5) Marriage counseling
- Bring your feelings to the surface in a safe space that can be moderated by a professional, and how your feelings for financial security are not being validated or respected.  Your trust in her has been broken and needs to be restored.
- when you are ready - bring up a post nuptial agreement as a path to reach common ground and limit your personal risk and bring trust and safety back into the relationship.

Personal findings and experience:
Impulsively- can only be fixed/lessened through her own counseling to determine “why” impulsivity exists and to develop more healthy mindsets about money.  Many things usually stem from childhood and not being able to regulate and suppress urges.  My wife has now realized she has a big problem, and her way of thinking (decisions largely based on feelings and how purchases will make her feel) is wrong.  That is the first step.  It is an addictive issue and they get a dopamine high.

Pep talk and Hope:
Rest assured you don’t deserve the slander she is spreading about you, the financial stress you are experiencing, and emotional abuse - you are worth it, and how you feel about money matters.   I have felt many of the things you have felt too.  You have equal rights and feelings in the marriage.  Your boundaries on money are ok to have.  Wanting to save for your future, and have a stable financial baseline for your family is not selfish - it is a core human need.  Working with a personal counselor through how to assert your feelings, and self confidence in respectfully building those boundaries can be liberating.


Personally - I am now through step 4 and moving toward step 5 and I am nervous, but also know that I deserve to not be stressed out by impulsive buying sprees, drained bank accounts, secret maxed out credit cards, and loans etc.

[ForeverDad]

To continue that summary:

Who we are (collectively)
How did we get here and not someone else?  Besides our probable codependency traits which made us susceptible to want to fix, we also pride ourselves in being Nice Guys and Nice Gals.  That's good, even great... in reasonably normal relationships.  But a definite disadvantage in dysfunctional acting-out (harming others) PD relationships... Borderline, Narcissistic, Antisocial, Histrionic.

When to be perceptive and careful versus overly fair
Our first impulse is to be overly nice and overly fair.  Typically that's who we are.  To keep a balance in these dysfunctionally inclined relationships we need to be two or three steps ahead of the other, sadly.

Did you ever watch the old Maverick TV series?  Brett (James Garner), Bart (Jack Kelly) and Beauregarde (Roger Moore).  They always started out as surprised victims or with suspicions in some way but of course they developed strategies to "turn the tables" on the bad guys.

Well, we too care for our spouses but we can't afford to let them sabotage us.  This is where our otherwise excellent fairness impulses can sabotage us.  If we up front seek a fair (50/50) outcome and the other stubbornly insists on way more, how do you think the negotiations will turn out?  Yeah, odds are we would walk out with less than fair.

So, thinking of Maverick's approach, they were careful what they shared, maybe held back some metaphorical "cards up their sleeves" as leverage, sought more up front knowing that would get negotiated down but they might still walk away with something "fair".

You may think you have to prove to the court how "nice and fair" you are.  Not at all.  While the judge would get perturbed if you were nasty or outright mean, court doesn't care about the bickering and such.  Usually it sits back, allows the case to slow walk, hoping the two parties will stop wasting time and reach some sort of settlement.  (A settlement is more likely to happen as a major hearing or a trial is looming.)

Listen to your lawyer.  You should expect to hear strategies and how your local court works.  It's his or her business to advise you for your benefit.  The judge, lawyers and other professionals all close up shop at the end of the day and resume their personal lives.  Yes, your life is upended but that's largely your own subjective experience.  Yes, it's your life that's impacted, but ponder how they can be outside your box and have objectivity.

Going back to the Mavericks, it's okay to not offer 50/50 up front, okay to hold back from offering too much so that you have some Leverage to be useful later.

[mikejones75093]

So we were somewhat getting along.  Divorce was canceled.

She came home today and our puppy pooped on the floor.  She lost it.  Of course I had done nothing all day, the kids had done nothing.  Screaming at us all.  Now she says we are getting divorced.

This is just straight crazy.  I know she yelled and screamed before but she got over it and we didn't see it for a month.  Now it's up and down dramatically by the hour.

[Outdorenthusiast]

So we were somewhat getting along.  Divorce was canceled.

She came home today and our puppy pooped on the floor.  She lost it.  Of course I had done nothing all day, the kids had done nothing.  Screaming at us all.  Now she says we are getting divorced.

This is just straight crazy.  I know she yelled and screamed before but she got over it and we didn't see it for a month.  Now it's up and down dramatically by the hour.

In my experience - periods of heightened stress, and poor sleep exacerbate the frequency and severity.  However the underlying tendency doesn’t ever change.  They have to want to change themselves to improve their interpersonal relationships.  If they do, they can learn coping skills to regulate their emotions which helps.  My wife explained that it is like they are always at level 4 out of 5 on emotional stress as a baseline, whereas a normal person (non) is at level zero.  A small incident can push them to level 5 whereas a non wouldn’t even cause a serious blip in feelings (aka a puppy pooping)