Nothing normal about having been a "daddy's girl"

[Couscous]

I have just finished reading Silently Seduced and have discovered that there is nothing "normal" about having been a daddy's girl and that there are some very harmful consequences for those of us who were either daddy's girls, or are still be idealizing our fathers, and it is something that we have to be willing confront in order to be able to heal from our childhoods. Our fathers were as exploitive as our mothers were, even though they may have appeared to be the "good parent". Personally, I am now seriously beginning to wonder if the impact of my father's behavior on me was even more harmful than my mother's.

I highly recommend this book to anyone who still thinks that their father was the "good guy". FYI, the book doesn't vilify parents just in case anyone is concerned about that. The author is Dr. Ken Adams and he has some very good free webinars on the subject of enmeshment. Here is one that I thought was excellent: https://www.overcomingenmeshment.com/overcoming-enmeshment-webinar-6-enmeshment-recovery-goals-and-what-the-road-looks-like/

[zachira]

My father also enabled my mother, though he treated me better than she did. He tried really hard to be a better father after my aunt talked to him about how he neglected me while putting my sister on a pedestal. He clearly matched my mother in many ways in his level of immaturity, and asked me not to upset her because she refused to get help for her problems. Would it be safe to say in your case, that both your parents did not know how to be good parents to you, and you were left taking care of both them, instead of them taking care of you? Yes, it is not normal to be a "daddy's girl", and this is likely part of your father's inablity to have a mature relationship with a  mature woman, and be a father to his daughter. If you feel comfortable sharing, could you tell us what were the most harmful parts of being "daddy's girl, both during your childhood and as an adult?

[WalkbyFaith]

To me growing up, my dad was certainly the safer, more reliable, and more fun parent. I was a "daddy's girl." I could even express to him frustration with my mom at times. He was almost always there for me.

A few years ago I had to confront a painful childhood memory of my mom slapping me in the face when I was only about 6 years old, myself trying to seek safety and comfort from my father, and being told not to, that he wouldn't protect me because I deserved it. That memory began to unearth some feelings and realizations that my dad did not protect or defend me like he should have when I was growing up. Some other specific memories surfaced as well... and even into adulthood, when my mom sends her rambling, accusatory messages, she often uses "we think" language (instead of "I think") using my dad as a teammate against me, and he is silent, not stepping up for me at all.

I think the kicker was a couple years ago on Mothers Day, when he posted on facebook, "Happy Mothers Day to the best mother I could have asked for for our girls." It made me sick. Really? The best you could have asked for?

Summary : I no longer consider myself a daddy's girl.

[Notwendy]

I was a daddy's girl too. I think it's normal for girls to look up to their fathers. What isn't normal is the Karpman triangle dynamics in the family and the parentification- but this was a result of the not normal BPD/co-dependent relationship between my parents.

I too perceived my father as the good guy and somehow a victim of my BPD mother's behavior. It was when I had to work on my own co-dependent tendencies that I understood how his co-dependency fit into the relationship with my mother and that he was just as much a part of the dynamics. I don't think he intended for me to be enlisted as a co-dependent to her as well- but I think it was just how things had to work in the family. We all depended on him to provide. In the sense of being the provider, and trying to take on the role of both parents, he truly was the good guy.

But his attention and approval was conditional. He was enmeshed with my mother and they acted as if they were one person. If she was angry at me, he'd rally to her side. He loved me to the extent that he fulfilled his parental obligations. For me, he was the whole world, my only parent, I truly cared about him and valued the relationship. I don't know if it was reciprocal. He cared about BPD mother more than anything else. I do see the exploitation of this innocent child admiration and love for him, but I don't know if it was intentional or simply the way we had to function with a severely BPD family member.

BPD mother on the other hand was not subtle about her feelings towards me,  and even if Dad didn't actively stand up to her behaviors, even his presence was protective.  She is extremely disordered and we kids were afraid of her when we were little. We did have some fun times going to the park, the zoo, the movies, with Dad. I think he tried, and we are far better off for having him as a parent.

[Couscous]

Zachira,

TBH I am still reeling from reading the excerpt below, which hit me like several tons of bricks. I think it’s going to take me a few days to climb out of the rubble…

Deal with your feelings toward the same-sex parent.

Deal with your anger of being abandoned by this parent and being left to be the spouse for the other. This situation always invokes a deep sense of anger. It is important to differentiate anger from the hate and contempt you feel. Generally, hate and contempt are the feelings that the opposite-sex parent felt toward the same-sex parent and were inappropriately transferred to you. Those feelings needed to be dealt with directly by your parents between each other. You were caught in the middle and carried feelings that were not yours to begin with. Hate and contempt keep you from feeling an attachment to the same-sex parent. Begin to let go of those feelings by acknowledging they weren’t yours in the first place.

Although it explains so much, I am really struggling with the possibility that this could be true, and to accept that my father may have been the real villain in this story. I absolutely do have feelings of hatred and contempt towards my mother. And no, those feelings are not naturally there because my mother was abusive. If that were that were the case then I would have the same feelings toward my father because, as it turns out, he was just as, or even more abusive, and I do not have feelings of hate and contempt for him.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Did you ever experienced anger, hate and contempt for your father at some point in life though?

My mother triangulated me against my father AND I carried my father contempt toward my mother. My rage toward my mother though is my own and a direct mirror result of the rage she unleashed upon me when I was at my most vulnerable. none are villains, none are victims, because none were children... both were irresponsible and needed to mature emotionnally.

My father did over time, allowing our relationship to evolve. my mother didn't and remained abusive.

I processed my anger toward my father in my early twenties, without realizing that's what was happening. I never processed my feelings toward my mother, because I never could express my anger toward her.

I remember a discussion in particular where I told bluntly to my father I hated him... Not my proudest moment. But he allowed me to express it and to walk with him toward healing. He never called me a daddy's girl, my mother did, because she was jealous that I could safely attach myself to him and not to her.

It helps me to remind myself that there is no villains in my past... just lost traumatized children... One matured toward healing, the other didn't and still refuse to take responsibility for her emotional abuse.

Also note that I oscillated between my parents depending what was happening in my life. My mother did not allow me to be close to both of them at the same time, and my father abandoned me many times through life, choosing some crazy girlfriends...

I noticed that whenever I felt close or empathy toward my mother, I'd feel anger toward my father, and whenever I felt closer to my father, I'd feel contempt toward my mother...

In the end though, today, I am choosing to look at the present relationships and the person they are NOW, and the end result is : my father is not abusive and he offers me safety to grow and be myself. She doesn't.

[Notwendy]

Generally, hate and contempt are the feelings that the opposite-sex parent felt toward the same-sex parent and were inappropriately transferred to you. Those feelings needed to be dealt with directly by your parents between each other. You were caught in the middle and carried feelings that were not yours to begin with.

Oh my goodness.

I need to read that book but only at a time that I can manage the feelings I will have when reading it.

In order for my father to stay with my mother, and feel love for her, he had to also do something about his feelings of anger and rage that he felt for her as he could not direct them at her.

I think though- that my feelings towards my BPD mother were mine. I am her scapegoat child. She didn't treat me kindly. In addition, she could act out in horrible ways and still, Dad just seemed to cater to her every whim, while I was a good kid, a good adult daughter and it didn't ever seem to register as good enough for them.

This is how it went:

Dad couldn't control BPD mother's behavior and there were no consequences for what she did- but there were high expectations and consequences for me.

If she wanted something, dad couldn't say no to her, so he said no a lot-  to me- even for the smallest most inexpensive requests.

Dad could not get angry at her, but he was quick to snap at me for the smallest mistake.

Here is how I would say it:

Generally, hate and contempt are the feelings that the opposite-sex parent felt toward the same-sex parent and were inappropriately directed at you. Those feelings needed to be dealt with directly by your parents between each other.

[Couscous]

Did you ever experienced anger, hate and contempt for your father at some point in life though?

Not until last week… I had been in a coalition with my father starting at age 5. My mother was never able to succeed in turning me against him like she did with my 3 younger siblings, who had hatred and contempt for my mother.

I thought that my father was half-safe, but I am not so sure anymore. I think he is pretending to play ball with my new boundaries as long as I don’t completely cut the ‘apron strings’.

Last week he used some pretty heavy handed guilt tactics on me in order manipulate me into agreeing to move countries where I do not speak the language in order to take over his business so that he doesn’t have to deal with the hassle of selling it. I drew a hard boundary on that last week, and then was flooded with feelings of guilt which lasted for several days until I was able to snap out of it, and then I felt pure outrage over his outrageous request and unethical manipulation tactics. This I am sure came as a complete shock to him, and I sure hope that the fact that he didn’t immediately attack me rules out the possibility that he’s a malignant narcissist, but it might be too early to say.

I am feeling more and more in my gut that he is not a safe person, and I am realizing that I must distance myself from him. Just typing this is bringing feelings of fear in me which I don’t really understand. A few months ago he said to me, ‘You know, I am really not a nice person’, and it has really stuck in my mind. I really, really hope that he is not a covert malignant narcissist…

[Couscous]

Notwendy,

This is how I understand the process:

1. A mother enmeshes with her son due to her own trauma.
2. Her son grows up and gets married, and then projects his mother onto wife.
3. He then punishes his wife (mother) by ‘spousifying’ their daughter, thus betraying his wife.
4. This results in his wife getting very angry, but she displaces her anger towards her husband onto the daughter whom she scapegoats.
5. The father doesn’t protect the daughter because he would rather she be the target than he.
6. The mother looks like the persecutor, when really the husband is, and he set the daughter up for the abuse.

[Notwendy]

Interesting dynamics.

In my situation though, my mother is severely BPD and her behavior is over the top and abusive. So it's not as if she's the innocent wife that the husband is projecting his own anger at his mother on. BPD mother is the source of her own abusive behavior towards her immediate family.

I don't think my father "spousified" me to punish BPD mother. It was pretty clear that my status was "lower" than her. It was more that he adultified me as I was capable, useful, and BPD mother was about all anyone could handle.

As a result, I got attention for being another emotional caretaker to BPD mother. It was more like being his coworker than spouse. There was no question that she #1- she was the main priority.

I think his relationship with me did make her angry for some reason, but I think it's more BPD reason as she also didn't like his relationship with his family or anyone else she thought he was connected to.

She didn't displace her anger. She projected it on to him too. She was verbally and emotionally abusive to him. The difference was when it came to her kids. Golden child was painted white, while I am the scapegoat child.

Mother was the persecutor. The error was in perceiving Dad as the victim. He was the enabler. If she was angry at me, he joined her and became her co-persecutor. As her enabler, he became the accomplice to her actions. However he would often blame her for his "punishing" me or saying no to me. If I wanted something he'd say "mother wouldn't let me" which now I know had to be BS- he earned the money! And these were not big requests, maybe a new dress or something. (he could have said yes) But he knew my mother would get angry if he agreed to it, so he said no.

I think where Dad became persecutor was in enabling this dynamic in the family.

[Couscous]

I think where Dad became persecutor was in enabling this dynamic in the family.

Which implies we should all be feeling the same level of anger towards our fathers as we feel toward our mothers. But I know that I am still not close to being fully in touch with my feelings of anger toward my father even though I saw his true colors for the first time 9 months ago.

But I did do something that feels incredibly disloyal a few days ago. I contacted my dad’s only sibling, a sister, who I was never close to, and who I haven’t seen or been in touch with for several years. We are going to chat this weekend and I think it will be an interesting experiment.

[Riv3rW0lf]

It might be that he is, they do say BPD and NPD attract each other?

In my case the dynamic is very different.. my BPD mother was jealous of my father and I relationship but the real reason behind her anger was that I am a daughter, and daughters never held any value for my grandfather. When he passed, my uncles inherited everything while my mother and aunts had nothing. They were all abused sexually by my grandfather's brother and he did nothing to protect them... She developped a very high shame of herself, if only because she is a woman and discharged her rage and shame onto me.

It is unclear for me who my grandmother is... I think she was very submissive, because again, a woman's opinion was not valued in our family...

My mother could have had children with anyone, there would have been issues, because my mother does not live in the present, she is constantly reliving her past. She simply doesn't see us and cannot see us. 

I am sorry to read your father triggers fear in you. My father triggers sadness and abandonment, but not fear. I was very angry at him for a while but never scared... I would definitely listen to your guts on that one. If you feel scared, your unconscious is telling you something. You might have forgotten but your body remembers.

However, the fact your father might be a narcissist does not mean your mother was a victim. They might both have sociopathic tendencies and be generally unsafe...

[Couscous]

However, the fact your father might be a narcissist does not mean your mother was a victim. They might both have sociopathic tendencies and be generally unsafe...

Oh yeah, I definitely do not view my mother as a victim. The dynamic between them has always been my father in the role of controlling parent, and my mother as the needy, helpless child, and she was not abusive of him. I now have come to realize that he was verbally and financially abusive of her. But she sure got her revenge on him when she illegally left the country with us as kids after my dad left her… And in spite of all of this they are both still enmeshed to this day, or probably it’s more accurate to say that they are still trauma bonded.

[Turkish]

I read Silently Seduced 6 or 7 years ago and took a good, long, hard look in the proverbial mirror. Was I going to screw up my kid for my emotional needs?

Their mom left when D was 1 and S had just turned 4. D preferred me more, I think, because her mom was being neglectful (absent).  Her mom knew it, but not why. To this day, I still get challenged from time to time, her perception being that I prefer D10 over S12. Until mommy's perception switches the other way  and i get feedback about that

This is one of the very few times that I'm reminded that I'm one of the few males here that regularly posts, so I hope I'm not disturbing the conversation. You all have great insight.

I think Daddy's Girl has kind of a negative connotation, perhaps not as much as Momma's Boy, but still. I did some searching and DG has maybe 90% negative articles in reference. Here's one that is balanced towards the positive, but not entirely. No mention of a dysfunctional mother. The author has good perspective:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2018/01/22/i-grew-up-as-a-daddys-girl-and-that-confuses-the-men-i-date/

I asked D10 if she thought she was a Daddy's Girl. She replied maybe, kind of. Then she and S12 from the backseat of the car said that Daddy's Girls, from their points-of-view, were spoiled. I asked S12 if he was a Mommy's Boy. He said no. I don't think he is either.

Based upon your stories here, part of me is glad that their mom left, as I wouldn't want to be cast into making dysfunctional choices. Nine years ago, I kind of chose the kids, a baby and a recently graduated toddler, which maybe was also wrong as I couldn't find balance between that and a mother acting out like a desperate teenager (I partly triggered it, not innocent).

Part of me is also on self-watch. A year ago, then D9 and her mom had major conflicts. That's gotten better, but she's almost a tween, and can be difficult. What will be my role not to dysfunctionalally triangulate, partly based upon my lingering dislike of her mom? "That's OK, I'm here for you!" And the like.

[Notwendy]

Reading this thread, I realized I wasn't a Daddy's girl. I think it was more of a one way feeling for me. These are girls who Dad treats as his special girl. This didn't happen. All attention was on BPD mother.

Dad was a parent though, the only parent who acted like a parent to us and so to me, he was my only parent and I felt close to him. But I think it was relative. I felt closer to him than I do to my mother because we didn't really have a bond.

I think what was different began when I was a young teen. I recall a time when we were at the dinner table and I was telling Dad about what I did in school that day- and Dad connected with that- it was a common interest. BPD mom started to act all silly and cute- I think she noticed that Dad was paying attention to me- but it wasn't being "spousal" but more about each of us discussing a subject in school.

It looks more like his relationship with me was contingent on me appeasing my mother. On the other hand, he did take the role of parent and provider and had a positive influence on me so he must have cared in some way, but I think he was so co-dependent on my mother that this took precedence.

[Riv3rW0lf]

This is one of the very few times that I'm reminded that I'm one of the few males here that regularly posts, so I hope I'm not disturbing the conversation. You all have great insight.

I appreciate your insight on this board and having one male around to give us more perspective on fathers. I think men who are actively dating BPD women carry some kind of trauma that they haven't contacted yet... I am always amazed that there are not more men on the PSI board.

I think Daddy's Girl has kind of a negative connotation, perhaps not as much as Momma's Boy, but still. I did some searching and DG has maybe 90% negative articles in reference. Here's one that is balanced towards the positive, but not entirely. No mention of a dysfunctional mother. The author has good perspective:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2018/01/22/i-grew-up-as-a-daddys-girl-and-that-confuses-the-men-i-date/

The article was interesting, thank you for sharing. I recognize myself in what she wrote. I just recently realized my highly perfectionist tendencies were not caused by my mother's neglect and trauma, but by my father's and the way he interacted with me. What I wasn't sure is how. The only thing I know, is that when I am around him, I feel I need to be perfect somehow.

It hit me when my sister visited while I was there, how he spoke with her. And somehow I don't think he spoke this way with me... I remember a discussion where he told me I had always been his favorite, and I remember feeling shocked that he could say this to me, I got the unfairness of it. But I can't say that I was surprised by this. I am the only one he actually fought to keep with him for part-time custody... And I kind of feel he didn't really care if my brother was with us or not, as long as I was. Wow it is like I have another part of me to discover now...

All of this "new" dynamic could explain my high self-esteem (father's love) and low/absent self-love and self-compassion (mother's love).

I asked D10 if she thought she was a Daddy's Girl. She replied maybe, kind of. Then she and S12 from the backseat of the car said that Daddy's Girls, from their points-of-view, were spoiled. I asked S12 if he was a Mommy's Boy. He said no. I don't think he is either.

I would not have described myself as a daddy's girl either. But writing all this, I can see I clearly was... I actually really like the article you posted because I agree that this was not a negative for me though. Because my father is not abusive and he always encouraged the best in us, independence, and acted as a safety net.

I also always preferred the company of men and can get along easily with a table of men. It took me a while though to realize that while I viewed their company as appropriate and "genderless", with no flirting, they always viewed me as a woman and a "possibility" and it lead to flirtation I didn't want and some bad situations. Now, while I still prefer the company of men, I consciously decide to only keep women as friends, which have actually been very healing to me. I never could trust women. Now I can.

Emotionally, with my father, I realize the relationship was great as long as I was the independent, high achiever and self-controlled child he wanted me to be. But he also provided room for mistakes, and never closed the door on me, even after I told him I hated him. There was always a possibility to repair the relationship with him. I don't think he closed the door on any of his children, what I think is that in the end, I am the only one of his children that chose him. My brother chose my mother, and my step-sister chose her mother. I chose my father.

What is terrible in all this is that : we had to choose between our parents in the first place, which seems to be at the very core of who I am, more so than my mother's emotional dysregulations.

Based upon your stories here, part of me is glad that their mom left, as I wouldn't want to be cast into making dysfunctional choices. Nine years ago, I kind of chose the kids, a baby and a recently graduated toddler, which maybe was also wrong as I couldn't find balance between that and a mother acting out like a desperate teenager (I partly triggered it, not innocent).

Part of me is also on self-watch. A year ago, then D9 and her mom had major conflicts. That's gotten better, but she's almost a tween, and can be difficult. What will be my role not to dysfunctionalally triangulate, partly based upon my lingering dislike of her mom? "That's OK, I'm here for you!" And the like.

I appreciate the advice of asking validating questions. And I don't think that you have to carry all the weight of the relationship on your shoulder... You children are getting older, their understanding of the world is becoming their own a little more each day and in the end: they share the decision of where the relationship will go and what it will bring them.

I chose my father. My brother chose his mother. My sister chose her mother.

In the end: the children make a choice too. You can only be your best self for them and then trust them to become their best self too.

[Notwendy]

Turkish- one difference is that you chose the well being of your kids. They may not see this now but I think it will be apparent to them later.

I think this is different from a "daddy's girl" arrangement. It appears the father is being attentive to the child's needs, but the relationship is meeting his needs.

Kids naturally want to have a relationship with a parent, even an abusive one. I think it's evolutional for kids to cling to their parents- for their survival. The parents are in control when children are young.

Once they are adults, I think the relationship transitions into a more mutual one. The kids don't' need parents for their material needs or survival. The relationship between adult children and parents requires the same kind of relationship skills as between any adults. Although I seems that "chose" my father, he also was the parent who was the most capable of having a relationship between two adults.

My mother having BPD impacts all her relationships. She was able to be in control as a parent- a lot through fear- we were afraid of her but this isn't how to have a good relationship with kids or anyone. It's not that I don't want to have a relationship with her, but that her emotional issues limit the relationship I could have.

Turkish, I think your investment in the children and your strong emotional capability to have a relationship with them are determinants of their relationship with you as they mature.

[Couscous]

Ugh..l think I also was the victim of emotional incest at the hands of my ‘nice guy’ smooth talker, step-father who played on my sympathies. Even though I was 21 at the time, because he was my step-FATHER it was absolutely inappropriate for him to show so much interest in me, and flirt with me, and I can only imagine what could have easily happened had he married my mother when I was much younger…

God, it’s all just so sickening!

[Notwendy]

Ewww. I am so sorry. Not being related to you, I can see where someone with poor boundaries could cross that line but eww.

One of the most infamous examples of creepiness is when Woody Allen was in a long term relationship with Mia Farrow and married her adopted daughter. I recall we were all creeped out by that.

[Riv3rW0lf]

You know what Couscous? I actually have to thank you for this thread, because you opened my eyes on something regarding my own relationship with my father. The first time I read your post, I felt reactive, defensive somehow, and I couldn't explain exactly why... And I think it is because in the end : my father was so much safer than my mother, that I feel like I have to protect this relationship somehow to stay sane. However... He had children with a pwBPD, and cumulated unhealthy relationships after unhealthy relationships, until he met his current wife 12 years ago. I know he worked a lot on himself, but seeing him, and seeing how he treats her... I can see he hasn't change much. I mean.. with the kind of relationships he seeked, he clearly was not safe to be around...

I don't think he is a narcissist, he doesn't exhibit any of the narcissistic rage, but he is definitely very self-centered with a small capacity for empathy. Our relationship has improved, but there is still an emotional disconnect, and I don't think I wish to reconnect emotionally with him.

What you said on the other thread truly opened my eyes on something : my father always acts like a victim too. And my mother first identification on the triangle is rescuer, hence their match of abuse. Even recently, he told me my BPD mother had told my brother she had breast cancer... And I hate to say it : but I heard some excitement in his voice, and I willingly chose to ignore it. Like he was somehow happy to be part of the drama? And I realize now, part of him enjoys the drama, and he tries to be the victim through it all...

"Riverwolf, Your  mother might have breast cancer; look how my relationship with your brother is on the downhill since then, give me empathy, I am sadden by what she does..." He just told me my own BPD mother, with whom I am estranged, has breast cancer, which any normal people could see I am likely the one requiring the empathy right now, it hit me like a train, not knowing what was true, what wasn't, how I felt... For the first time I answered honestly: "Look I hear your pain with my brother, but I cannot offer you anything right now. Put yourself in my shoes for a second... I have to process all this." And like nothing happened, he started talking about how good his travel to France was... because I wouldn't engage?

"Your sister is in a relationship with an abusive man, I suspect she got hit more than once, look how she treats me badly by not coming to see me anymore." And I somehow have to explain to him what it means FOR HER to be in this kind of relationship and that we should be there FOR HER...

It just hit me now again : his incapacity to provide any kind of empathy, whatsoever, when I was a suicidal teenager, heavily self-medicating with marijuana. To this day, he still tells me "how good I was doing in my teenage years while I lived with him"... When I was not good at all, stopped going to school toward the end, lost my best friend, lonely and completely abandoned. He was completely oblivious to it, and would come downstairs, in my room, to cry about his BPD girlfriend ! And I had to offer him compassion and a shoulder to cry on ! A 16 years old carrying a 46 years old, offering wisdom as best I could... Like I was his sister, or a dear friend, but not a teenager in need of guidance and protection.

I was a daddy's girl... He never disciplined me, ever. But I had to be perfect, or else... Always talking about my brother and his difficult relationship with him... Even our last fight, I said something that didn't please him, and he said something to the effect that he preferred my sister now... How crazy is that... It stung, but I immediately knew it was bullsh*t. He was never close to my sister at all. Although they are closer now, since she is the only one that will listen to his conspirationnists theories. I suspect she is looking for any way possible to connect with him...

I will need to uphold clear and healthy boundaries with him too. And lower my expectations, as to not have any, truly... He is not abusive, and overall, he did become better overtime, and he did work on himself, but I need to be cautious not to jump back in with eyes closed, because he still likes the drama created by my brother and younger sister right now... he wants to rescue... and then act the victim. He is in the freaking triangle too ! While I just want OUT.

I wonder what my stepmother finds in him... She is a psychologist, so maybe she also carries a bit of the helper/rescuer syndrome

Does anyone have their   together in this world?

[Turkish]

would come downstairs, in my room, to cry about his BPD girlfriend ! And I had to offer him compassion and a shoulder to cry on ! A 16 years old carrying a 46 years old, offering wisdom as best I could... Like I was his sister, or a dear friend, but not a teenager in need of guidance and protection.

 

[Riv3rW0lf]

I see what you did there  

I have literally no idea what regular/healthy teenagers are, nor what they need. I think I might read a few books before my children hit 10...  

First on my list might be Silently Seduced! Going back to therapy too.

[Turkish]

Riv3rW0lf,

I stopped short of using this:  

Now that D is about 10.5, I might reread that book as well.

One thing that I can never comprehend is talking to the kids as you father did to you. Maybe when they're 30? Even then, no. The most I share is complaining about the utility bills, stop running do much water and shut out the lights when you leave rooms! *grrrrr*

I did involve them in my idea to move to another state to take a job and do a long commute or split the custody year, but I thought it necessary. I didn't telegraph my emotions about it at all. Those I own, solamente!

More than a few years ago, my ex dropped them off and told the kids to "take care of daddy." I told her, in front of them, that taking care of me wasn't their job. She rolled her eyes and said,  "whatever!"

I'll give her some credit for realizing that she was likely a victim of covert incest from her mom and she's made a lot more progress on healing her r/s with her father.

It elicits a feeling of ickiness in my to even think about emotionally dumping on my kids.  

[Notwendy]

It was BPD mom who took me aside as a teen to discuss her relationship with my Dad and it was TMI.

Dad didn't do that. Sometimes though - I would ask for answers. That was none of my business as a teen- but then BPD mother made it my business by talking about it. At some point, I think kids will ask questions. More like "why is mom saying this" rather than wanting to know personal info. Dad would sometimes give some sort of brief response but not TMI. I can't imagine he wasn't cringing from the questions.

What's not right about that is that BPD mother did this in the first place. Thinking about that as a parent, I'd have seen that as very wrong. Maybe he said something about it to her. I don't know. Other than have us kids removed from the home, there wasn't a way to control what she said to us and that wasn't a good option.

It's not good for a teen to gives them a sense of empowerment by putting them on sort of equal footing when an adult discloses personal information to them- as a friend/confidant. It's too much for a kid that age. They need a parent to lean on while they sort out their own emotional stuff but it is not their job to be that for an adult.

[Couscous]

Regardless of what diagnosis our parent/s qualify for, the bottom line is that both parents are wounded Adult Children who feel entitled to have us meet their unmet childhood needs. Our families are upside down -- the kids are the resource and we are meant to be there for them instead of them being there for us. When we are unwilling to provide them with what they believe we owe them, they experience that as selfishness and then feel completely justified in either withdrawing in stony silence or lashing out.

A couple of days ago I emailed my father to explain to him in no uncertain terms that he no longer was my highest priority, and that my loyalty was to my "family of procreation". Not only was I not going to uproot myself and my family in order to take over his business, but I also was not going to feel guilty about it. He tried to get the last word in and sent a pouty reply where he made another attempt to guilt trip me as well as to gaslight me ("I have no idea where you got the idea that I wanted to take over the business... I gave up any hope of any of you kids taking over the business years ago..") but I just calmly repeated my message back to him. But I have this horrible sense of dread that he might decide to cut off his nose to spite his face by "failing" to sell the business and retiring just so that we will be burdened with having to rid ourselves of it after he dies, which exactly the kind of thing a wounded Adult Child would do...
 

 

[Riv3rW0lf]

It's not good for a teen to gives them a sense of empowerment by putting them on sort of equal footing when an adult discloses personal information to them- as a friend/confidant. It's too much for a kid that age. They need a parent to lean on while they sort out their own emotional stuff but it is not their job to be that for an adult.

Yep... I am very grateful to this board for opening my eyes about myself a bit more each day. I have so much to learn still... The more I dig, the more I realize I am not nearly deep enough... Just a never ending work, but then at least, this work provide some meaning to my life. And it does feel, over time, that it is making it a bit sweeter, despite all the hurt.

So I bought Silently Seduced, and hopefully will finally know how all of this impacted who I am today. Being a parent to my mother, managing her emotions as much I could to not suffer her outbursts, and being some kind of sister to my father.. And dare I say an emotional spouse whenever he didn't have anyone else? I have to if I am to be honest with myself, seeing how abandoned I felt every time he had a new girlfriend, how I suddenly didn't matter to him.

This is all so very wrong... And I realize that truly the only thing that changed is that I grew up, got married and decided to stand up by my husband...just got a flash of how, the first time he met my husband : my father didn't even acknowledge his presence... Didn't say hi, didn't talk to him. Hugged me and ignored him, and didn't even left me the chance to correct this terrible entrance before he turned away toward the house...

It didn't feel wrong at the time. It is weird to suddenly realize just how unhealthy my relationship with my father also was. The gift that keeps on giving ...  seems like I got daddy issues ! At this point, I am genuinely just amazed at my own capacity for denial.

Sorry Couscous, I hope you don't mind me sharing my experience on your board. I think seeing the world, our society, as traumatized children trapped in the bodies of adults remains accurate for me... The question I have now is : am I an adult? Or just another traumatized child trapped in a woman's body, unaware of the damage I am doing to my own children just by being imperfect. I guess I am sometimes the adult, and sometimes the child.

Juggling with my guilt, confusion and personal responsibility, I now see the value of embracing it all as God's plan, and just living following divine rules. It does feel less heavy to think we are perfectly imperfect and part of a greater mosaic that we just cannot comprehend. Otherwise, I just feel crushed by this need to be in control... There is a lot of wisdom to just... doing our best, and striving to be the best version of ourselves we can be... And in letting go.  

But then I don't think I will ever be able to be someone else, will I? Do you reckon this whole work, in the end, is just to learn about ourselves? To better take care of ourselves, of our needs and then of the needs of others? For a while, it seems I wanted to change who I am... But ultimately I don't think we can... It now feels the only thing I can do is discover myself... Because I have no idea who I truly am. Do you?

[Riv3rW0lf]

But I have this horrible sense of dread that he might decide to cut off his nose to spite his face by "failing" to sell the business and retiring just so that we will be burdened with having to rid ourselves of it after he dies, which exactly the kind of thing a wounded Adult Child would do...

Yep that might be... And I understand your dread.

My father had a heart attack last year, and one year later, he bought a lot of lands to start a new business in agriculture that he wants to pass down to us: to my brother, sister and I. I dreamt a little bit, of how everything would work out, then the truth about BPD mother hit and I now realize I truly do not wish to manage this business after he dies, I have projects of my own. I also do not wish to have to deal legally with my siblings. I don't know how my sister will be as she ages, we are ten years appart, but I know my brother is a mess completely enmeshed with my mother and I just don't want to manage any of it.. My brother and father are both proud to say I am the referee for all legal matters if something happens to them and none of them realize this is not a gift at all! I don't want any of this, I just want to do my own things peacefully.

And I am more and more convinced that I don't owe them anything other than what I want to offer. I already gave them too much. Like you, I believe my responsibility is toward my children, my husband, the family I chose and built.

But then, I will cross that bridge when I get to the river... Maybe by then my children themselves will want this business... Who knows... Better leave all windows and doors open... Whenever possible.

[WalkbyFaith]

Such a painful yet fascinating thread.
Okay, I'm bringing up another aspect of this "daddy issues" question:  how does it affect my relationships with men as an adult woman?

I was a Daddy's Girl growing up - as described above in my earlier post - he was the "safe" parent and the fun one, compared to my ubpd mother who had all sorts of physical/mental/emotional health issues. He was definitely her Enabler, always has been, but he was good to us.

But as a teenager/young adult I realized I had this NEED for attention from father figures. People like teachers or pastors or my friend's dad... I craved their attention and affection, not in a sexual way, just in a fatherly way. I remember being confused by this because I had a good relationship with my dad.

Now, as a happily married woman, I still find myself at times struggling with temptation toward other men, wanting them to be attracted to me, etc... I feel absolutely horrible about these thoughts because I love my husband!  but it seems that if there is any hint that a man might find me attractive, my mind latches onto that and I fantasize and crave the attention.

So I am starting to ask myself, does this have roots in my history? in my toxic family system? Is this a "daddy issue"?  My dad was there, though. He was present and loving and funny and he drove me to all my dance classes and was the stable one when my mom was wildly unpredictable. So it doesn't quite make sense to me. Is it really possible for such attachment issues to develop from a father who is present to his children while being enmeshed/enabler to an unhealthy wife?

So much of my childhood memories (like up until age 12-ish) are so shadowed and fuzzy though, there's much I don't remember in those years, so I'm wondering how much more there is to the story of my parents and how they related to me.

[Couscous]

Walkbyfaith,

The thing is that it takes unconditional love in order for a secure attachment to a parent to develop, and covert incest is the exact opposite of unconditional love.

I was attracted to father figures too — in my case it was in the form of older (like 15-20 years older) men. I also found it impossible to say no to the advances of any man that found me attractive.

I’m also realizing that I the breakdown in my relationship with my siblings is most likely due to the favoritism shown to me by my father. I heard from my SIL that my brother who I am now estranged from, told her that resented me because of this. 

I’ve just contacted a therapist who has taken Ken Adam’s enmeshment training in order to try to sort this stuff out. It’s been pretty unsettling to discover that apparently I’ve completely misunderstood the nature of the my relationship with my father, and essentially it was a lie.

[Turkish]

Walkbyfaith,

The thing is that it takes unconditional love in order for a secure attachment to a parent to develop, and covert incest is the exact opposite of unconditional love.

This is a great point. In case anyone hasn't read  article from the Tips pull down at the top of the site:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

Many parents and children are close. Closeness is healthy and desirable. The difference between a healthy close relationship and an incestuous one is that in a healthy close relationship a parent takes care of a child's needs in an age-appropriate way without making the child feel responsible the emotional needs of the parents needs. In an emotionally incestuous relationship, instead of the parent meeting the needs of the child, the child is meeting the needs of the parent.

A lot of material here focuses upon the mother-daughter relationship, as well as most of the discussions.

It's good that you started this discussion, Couscous, to shine light on Fathers as well.