Dragon72's marriage counseling continues...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Did she ever "turn in" the finance documents where she was going to show all the stealing you have done... or hiding... or whatever she called it?

Did she attend the session yesterday? 

Do you have another session scheduled for this coming week?

FF

[formflier]

Did she ever "turn in" the finance documents where she was going to show all the stealing you have done... or hiding... or whatever she called it?

Did she attend the session yesterday? 

Do you have another session scheduled for this coming week?

FF

[Dragon72]

No, she never touched the file again nor mentioned it.  It's still lying on the kitchen table.

She went alone to the T on Friday.

I didn't sleep much on Thursday night as I was up coughing due to a chest infection (which has since cleared up) so I was tired at work on Friday, which was a long and busy day. When I got home from work, she still hadn't gotten back yet and so I ate and then relaxed a while in front of the TV.  I was exhausted. 

A couple hours later at 7pm or so, I started to iron a big pile of clothes that needed to be ironed. Just then, my wife got home.  Within seconds she asked me how long I'd been home and why I hadn't done various housework things.  I was tired and cranky and bit back and said I didn't like her attitude. I told her that she's not my employer, that after a long hard day at work earning money for the family I have the right to an hour and a half of down time and that I didn't like the fact that, even while I was in the middle of ironing one of her blouses, she had the nerve to criticize me for not doing things.
"I'm not making criticisms," she retorted, "they're comments".
"They sounded a lot like criticism to me," I replied.
Neither of us were at our best, I'd say.
Not much was said before bedtime when she went to bed with the little on as usual.

The next day, she was warmer to me. We took our son to the big amusement park here, and we had a great time, but she was still fairly aloof, preferring to let me go on the rides with our son.  Once, though, while our son was on a ride, she came up to me, gave me a big hug and a long kiss on the lips and said, "I was us to go back to how we used to be".

I was lost for words and just stood there taking the hug and the kiss.  Our son finished his ride at that point and so the focus turned back on him.

That night she invited me to join her upstairs. That's code for sex.  I said no, thanks, I'm tired.  I really was. And besides, I don't think I'm ready to jump into the sack with someone who has been so unfriendly to me for so long. I'm going to need more time.  I'm also conflicted about whether I really want to be in the marriage.

So I spent the evening on my own in the living room downstairs and when I went to bed, she was in "our" bed. Just I was going to get in, our son woke up, then she got up to get him back to bed and she never came back to my bed.

So it seems that the individual T session had an effect. My bet is that the T said that the relationship will die if it continues without intimacy, so she's trying her best.  Still not quite able to spend the night with me.  My idea of intimacy, though, is two people spending time together, talking, laughing, enjoying each other's company and maybe sex as a result.  Not the other way round.

The ice between us has thawed to a certain extent.  But I'm not breaking out the champagne.

We have a joint session planned for Thursday evening.

[formflier]

How do you plan to address the finance file?

FF

[Dragon72]

I will not raise the issue of the money files unless I have to. I don't want to kick that wasp nest if I don't need to.
My idea is that if she has an issue or accuses me of something, I'll just say "Go get the folder, and show me where the problem is, suggest how we can fix it and we'll discuss it."
As you say, let her do the work.

It seems that the T really did have an effect last Friday.  Mrs Dragon72 seems to have moved into "our" bedroom and has been talking to Dragoncito about how he's got his own room now.  She actually spent the whole night in "our" bed for the first time in literally years. 

[formflier]

Wow!  That's awesome... .

I'm happy for your that there is an apparent shift in things.

My advice is to let the MC lead the next session... .if finance files don't come up... .I likely would raise them.  However... .if by the follow on session they haven't come up, that may be worth an email or call to MC to ask her to bring it up... .

That's a really big "loose end" to leave out there.  My advice is to leave a door open for her to "exit"... .and say "i'm good with things... " and not shame her about not looking through the files.

FF

[formflier]

How do you feel about her moving back into the bedroom?

What has your kid said about having his own room?

FF

[Dragon72]

I am happy that she has moved back.  It's way better for our son to be on his own, and way better for him to see that married couples sleep in the same bed.  Hopefully her physical proximity to me for a few hours at least, even if they are spent asleep, might help to repair the emotional bonds between us as a couple too.  But I dnon't expect miracles overnight.

She still goes to bed early at the same time as our son, albeit in a different bed now, and leaves me to spend the evening on my own.  I leave the house for work a half hour before she even wakes up, so there's still no "just her and me" time in our lives.

I think our son is quite happy about the idea of sleeping alone.

Having said all this, last night (only night #2 of the New Order of Things) our son came into our room at 2.50am to tell us about fire trucks (his favorite things) and so she put him back in his bed and spent the rest of the night with him. 

I have a strong suspicion that she will go back to his bed more often now until it becomes all the time. That has happened in the past when she tried to move back in with me.  She will come up with excuses like "our son needs me" or "it's too noisy in that room".

[formflier]

Hmmm... .practical things.

Why take him back to bed?  Send him by himself... .perhaps even practice it during the day.  Walk in... .get in bed and stay there after a quick talk with mommy and daddy.

Or... you take him back to bed... .pat his back for 2 min and leave.

Also... .she has "made moves towards you"... .and is in your room again.  Why not "make a move towards her" and go to bed when she puts son to bed.

Even if it's not sex, perhaps cuddle... she falls asleep and then you can quietly go do your night owl thing... .or perhaps you get more sleep.

Personal story:  I'm a morning person... so I would usually get up and do stuff alone in the morning, read... post here... .drink coffee... I really enjoyed that time.

My wife would sleep fitfully or wake up and "stew" for a while that she was alone in bed... .and then get up and turn the flamethrower on me (usually)

Well... .P pushed me to alter what I can control.  I control where I am and what I do... .and the relationship is bound to change.  So... .I stay in bed a lot longer now.  I wake up, get rid of my sleep gear (long story) and will spoon or cuddle until it's time for her to go to work, at which point she gets up and quickly gets ready and departs... .

My wife is a "touch" person for love language... .this change in my schedule... that  I control has had a massively good impact on the "temperature" in our home.

No... didn't fix everything... .but much less flamethrowering in the morning.

FF

[Dragon72]

Last night Mrs D didn't even spend a second in our bed last night.  Went to bed with the little one and never left.  Just as I predicted.

T session for both of us together this evening.

[formflier]

Last night Mrs D didn't even spend a second in our bed last night.  Went to bed with the little one and never left.  Just as I predicted.

T session for both of us together this evening.

I would suggest "staying neutral" and focusing on the positive... that you really enjoyed the affection she displayed and the closeness of her being with you... and you were disappointed that it changed back.

Counseling is a great place for practical discussions... ."I was thinking... how about if I put him back to bed in middle of night... if he gets up.  How about we try going to bed at same time for a week and see what we think (express this as you "giving up" your night owl habit for the r/s)

I think there will likely be lots of emotion or other information you can get from her response.

Likely informative for the T as well.

Listen... .she is obviously more comfortable with adult-child intimacy and not so much with adult-adult (at least it seems that way to me)... .at some point that will need to be talked about.
FF

[Dragon72]

"she is obviously more comfortable with adult-child intimacy and not so much with adult-adult (at least it seems that way to me)... .at some point that will need to be talked about."

I know how she will address that issue.  The master bedroom is noisy due to the nearby busy street.  She will say that it's too much to bear.  And for that it's for that reason alone, she sleeps in our son's room.

I'm hardly a night-owl.  I'm in bed at 9.30 most nights, occasionally as late as 10pm.  I don't like the idea of going to bed when she does (before 8pm) as I feel that I want at least some of my work-week day when I am not at work , not in bed and kid-free.  That last bit is important to me. I'm a school teacher: 7am-5pm is spent with schoolkids, 5pm-8pm is with my son. I need at least an hour of my day in adult-world. Besides, she goes to sleep as soon as she goes to bed anyway, so she's hardly scintillating company.

[formflier]

Propose it anyway... spend 10 -15 minutes with her... .when she goes to sleep... get up and do your thing.

Don't push hard... but more of a "you "moved towards me" and I want to do the same for you"... ."for us".

Not permanent... .week or two (don't make hard dates... stay open)

The point is to show that you are max flex... .and let her either be the "stonewall" or let her make small moves.  

Hint:  I really do think you will get your "me time" at night.

Your thinking is sound... .but in my opinion, your priorities aren't (hope that makes sense)... .give up some "me time" (or propose it) for the benefit of the relationship... .trust me on this... .it will be a tool you can hand the T.

FF

[Dragon72]

It was quite an interesting session.

Up until this evening's T session there had been a bit of a thawing in relations between us, but now it's back to winter in northern Greenland frosty.

During the session my wife started to exhibit many BPD traits: unstable sense of self, fear of abandonment, paranoid delusions, inability to trust etc.  And the T focused on them for a while, including a lot of time suggesting that sleeping with junior and never spending quality time with her husband was unhelpful in the extreme in the relationship. Mrs D didn't like being put in the spotlight for HER behavior, since I'm the source of all her ills.

Then later, the T rightly called the dysfunctional dynamic of our relationship.  The T described me as the teenager who never quite faces up to his responsibilities and who resents his controlling mother. And she described Mrs D as the controlling mother who never lets me grow up.  Pretty harsh on both of us, but astutely on the money. 

My homework is to be less of a teenage son and more of a husband, and hers is to be less of an angry bossy mom to me, and more of a playful, loving wife.

"Yes, absolutely! The T's nailed it! I've got some work to do in drawing boundaries, detachment from her emotions, and looking after #1", I thought. 

But Mrs D was visibly angry, and resentful of having a share of the blame and bitter that the T might be suggesting that instead of me handing her back the control in the marriage like she would like, the T was implying that I should stick up for myself a bit more.

The ride back home was a silent one except for about half way through when Mrs D said, " You know what I think? I think that we should not go on with this relationship".

She clearly had a strong emotional reaction to a development she doesn't like and her answer is to say she wants to throw in the towel.  I didn't answer. It wouldn't have had any positive effect whatever I would have said. She was letting off steam, so I let her.

[Dragon72]

In the session yesterday, lot of time was spent talking about things which doesn't exist, or at least only in my wife's head.

1. My theft of the family's money. The subject of the finances folder came up.  It appears that she barely glanced at it, complaining that she didn't want to see just the credit card statements, she wanted to see the checking account statements.  They were in the folder too. What's more, I pulled out of my pocket there and then the latest month'c CC and checking statements on bank letterheaded paper. She just argued that she wanted to go to the bank and witness the bank staff handing over the statements. Both the T and I were incredulous at just how lacking in trust my wife was being, even when confronted with proof.

2. My wife is still insisting that I have bugged her phone and that I track every move.  I was asked again by the T if this is true. I said no.  My wife was asked for evidence for what she believes about me bugging the phone. She just threw in tangents and distractions and could not provide any reasonable cause. I asked my wife if the possibility exists that I am not surveilling her.  The T backed me up with the question.  My wife conceded that yes, it is a possibility, but... .My wife asked me to hand over my phone so she could check it.  I said no, that's a boundary. I won't do that, and i won't expect her to do that.  We both deserve privacy.

In case 1 I JADEd.  In case 2, I didn't.  She remains equally convinced of my guilt, but at least the T got to see it. 

Shortly after, the T asked us both if either of us has a fear that the other will abandon.  I said a simple No, I don't. My wife said that she has no problem if I go off with someone else.

It was quite an eventful session.

[formflier]

OK... .the "paranoia" piece here is very much like what I faced in my marriage for a while.

Money was part of it... .a harem and other families (like I was a polygamist) was most of it.  

I think you should let this go for a few more weeks before "switching" to validation of a fear... vice dealing with the truth.

The truth is invalidating and will likely increase the paranoia.

I "dealt with the truth" for a couple of years... .and made things worse and worse.  It's not about the truth... .it's about her extreme emotions

The truth does matter... .but be succinct... .and make her do the work

What does "make her do the work" mean... .no more bank statements from you... .zero

She can go to the bank... .she can go to the "central office" of the bank... because you know that you have the "locals" under your power... .

Seriously... .she can call... she can go... .she can present you with EXACTLY what she is concerned about... .STOP producing "evidence" for her... .let her produce it

Hint... she won't.  

Now... if you T wants you to do "one more"... .then fine... .but I would express trepidation... .and I would ask for a specific explanation of why, given what you have done so far, you should do more, when she won't point out the issues she is "precisely" concerned about.

I think the "dynamic" thing is very interesting... the teen and harsh Mom.  Let me think about that.  :)id the T say anything about you "allowing" yourself to be "judged" by "Mom".  Part of growing up is no longer being "under Mom's authority"

Anyway... .I've got to go feed the wee ones.

Good job not "taking the bait" on divorce... .ending the relationship.  In my opinion... .your number one priority is to reflect on paranoia and have a strategy and tactics to "not further inflame it"... ."Don't feed the monster"

FF

[Dragon72]

"What does "make her do the work" mean?... .no more bank statements from you... .zero"
I'm not really sure that's fair.  I think she ought to have the right to see the family's finances. A married couple ought to be equal partners. I would expect to be able to see her bank statements if our breadwinning roles were reversed.

"She can go to the bank."
Having just said that she should have the right to see my statements, I don't think she ought to be able to go to the bank and demand access to my records. And rightly the bank would not grant it.

I think you're right in the sense that I shouldn't desperately offer her my financial statements as a way of trying to prove my innocence and honesty. That's JADEing and, as you say, it only makes things worse. But i must balance that with the idea that she should have certain rights in our partnership to know things.

The third way is to maintain the folder of bank statements, let her know that it is available to her, and in the event that wild accusations fly, I'll just say that I will happily have a conversation about it if she can provide concrete evidence. And leave her to do the sleuthing.

As for the dynamic thing, I think the T was right about the roles were playing.  Yes, she did mention the fact that I am allowing myself to be judged by Mom in that she said that I am choosing to engage in certain behaviours that prove that (i.e. doing loads of housework while wife's out of the house, not because they need to be done, but so that when she comes back she doesn't say angrily "Why didn't you do this/that?".  I do so much simply to avoid her getting angry with/disapproving of me. That has to stop.

Our other homework is to look for another (quieter) place to live, so that my wife doesn't have the excuse of noise as a reason to sleep in Jr.'s bed.

[formflier]

I had made an assumption... .which I believe is incorrect.  Bad FF for assuming.

So... she doesn't have access to get the records on her own... .because it is not her account... right?  It's only yours.

Yeah... if I'm right about that... don't change that... .  It took me as a$$ton of money to figure out to keep my wife out of my finances.

Anyway... do some thinking.  Is there a way that you can make her "go through the motions" of compiling evidence... .without you doing the work... .and without her having the ability to "run off" with the money or otherwise causing havoc with your finances.

Perhaps just having the binder with the "raw" statements will help.  Let her create her own spreadsheets... .

She has already says yours are a fraud... .therefore... why would she want to ever use them?  (you have to be careful not to say this like a smartass)

You have the gist of this... ."don't prove yourself innocent"... .(it can't be done)... .let her do the work to "prove you guilt"... (which she can't) and let her deal with the frustration that facts don't equal her world.

Let her connect the dots

FF

[Dragon72]

Don't feel bad about making that assumption.  My wife is a deeply mistrustful person.  She doesn't do cards or bank accounts. She prefers cash. 
The account is mine alone.  I did offer a joint account and now in hindsight I'm very glad she didn't take me up on it.  She did have an account while she was working as a secretary before our son was born, and I offered back then to make deposits into her account, but she preferred cash.  That makes it safer for me at least.
I'll make the binder with the printed statements available to her. I'll also make available to her printouts of my spreadsheets that I maintain.  If she really wanted to, she could then see exactly where the $50 cash withdrawal last Wednesday ended up getting spent.  That's ample transparency.  Nobody could accuse me of trying to hide anything.
However I'm not going to pull the binder out if she dysregulates about money.  I'll just say, "Have a look at the binder and if you find anything untoward, show me what you've got or call the police."

If she's right that I'm a ratbag, why would she want to be with a crimina? She's wrong, so why do I put up with this level of mistrust?

[formflier]

My wife believed I was defrauding the federal government with military travel claims... .she claimed I would come back a couple days early... .have wild sex with my harem and then have them drop me off at the airport... .so it looked like I just flew in.

Of course... I filed my travel claims for the day she picked me up.

So... I figured if I offered her the chance to call the feds and have it investigated... that would end it... .  It only pissed her off more.


She never called.

So... .don't mention the police.  Somehow, I don't think you should discuss an accusation with her... unless she has figures to show you.

Validated her distress... .let her know you are ready to "look" at what she has... .

She knows where binder is... .and she can do that ... .or not.

Listen... .let's get really... anyone can accuse of you anything.  What matters is what can be proven.

It matters that you aren't the one in charge of "proving".

The less you engage and get pissed off... the better.

FF

[formflier]

Hey... .remind me again why she sleeps with your son... ?  What was the reason she came to bed with you a couple nights... and then went back.

Did that get addressed in last session... .or did she smokescreen it?

FF

[Dragon72]

Her official line on why she sleeps with him is that she needs to get a sound night's sleep, and she can only do that in our son's room as it in the (fractionally) quieter side of the house.  She also says it's because he wakes up in the night and "needs her".

[formflier]

 
Ok... .so... why sleep with you two nights and then go back?  Did that get talked about?

What was the purpose of a night or two with you?

FF

[Dragon72]

She was "making an effort"

[Fian]

Yes, I did see her making an effort with sleeping in bed, and the sexual advance.  You weren't prepared to reciprocate, but I can see how your non response would be distressing and demotivating to her.

[Dragon72]

Yes, I did see her making an effort with sleeping in bed, and the sexual advance.  You weren't prepared to reciprocate, but I can see how your non response would be distressing and demotivating to her.

I agree 100%.  Your point is a very valid one.

[Dragon72]

I spent most of the weekend at work. I was writing the final reports for a course I have been taking in Middle Leadership in Education and had to submit them on Monday so it took up a lot of my weekend.  When I was home, my wife seemed ok. She even picked me up from work on Sunday afternoon as a surprise to drive me home. Although that particular act of kindness was probably more about her making sure I was where I said I was.

That evening, my wife said that she had been out looking at new mattresses for our son's bed.  She said she found some queen mattresses, some of which she liked, some not.  The ones she liked were quite expensive.  I don't think she really "gets" two things: a) we don't have cash to splash b) that's not her bed.

One of our homeworks from the T was to look for a new place to live, so that Mrs D wouldn't have the excuse of noise not to sleep in the marital bedroom.

A few months ago it seemed likely that I could move into a that a now ex-coworker had left.  Where I work, the ex-pats have their rent paid by our employer.  That house and my house share the same landlord, so it would be a simple trade, I thought.  At first our HR department was all for it, so I told my wife who was excited as the house would have been perfect.

Then as I pressed for news on the move, our HR lady got less and less communicative, saying that there were "complications" and kept not giving me an answer.  Lately her line has been "we're prioritising properties for incoming new staff". As close to a no as you can get. So I told my wife. But I think she was still hoping it would actually happen.

So, yesterday my wife told me to go and get an aswer from the HR person. So I did.  It's a no.

When I got home, I got the silent treatment and a vibe that said she was angry with me.  I asked what's up.  "You don't want to move into that house!", she barked at me. 
"No, I really would have liked to move into that house, but my employer has other plans," I replied.
Silent treatment for the rest of the evening. She even gave our poor son the silent treatment because she was unable to switch between angry at me and nice to son.

I'm sick of living with a baby.  I'm very near to ending this sham of a marriage.

T session tomorrow.

[Dragon72]

Wow. That was a helluva T session!

She showed herself to be the most delusional mistrusting person in the world, even when confronted with rock solid proof!

[formflier]

OK... I'll take the bait... .

I'm guessing this was about the money... right?

FF

[Dragon72]

It was about the money - refused to accept that I was being open and honest in spite of statements, records and receipts.

It was about the house which I wanted us to move to, and I have a series of emails showing that I repeatedly asked, nay, begged, my boss to let us move into, but which he denied us. She still insists I never wanted us to move there.

It's about her phone, which she insists was bugged/tracked by me in spite of never having the slightest morsel of proof.

It's about her constantly calling me a liar without any just cause to do so.

It's about her gaslighting me by saying to the T that while I was playing a game with our son to try to teach him how to be a gracious loser, she said that I ran upstairs upset because I kept on losing. It doesn't even make sense!

My wife was doing everything she possibly could to not accept that I might be anything other than a lying monster.

The poor T was struggling to maintain her impartiality. It was obvious that my wife has MAJOR trust issues.  And the homework this week is a joke: we've both got to write on a document on the fridge everything we spend and what we spend it on.  That's what I've been doing for her all the time!

If there are trust issues, they are not going to be cured by proof and evidence.  She needs to learn to accept my word WITHOUT evidence. (Which she never looks at anyway, because that would negate the image that she has of me as the villain).

Her trust issues are fast becoming the straw that will break this camel's back.  I'm not sure how much more I can take being married to someone who thinks I'm an evil villain out to get her.

[Dragon72]

I gotta say, I'm feeling very blue this morning. And pretty angry too.  Angry at my wife for the way she's split me black. And angry at myself for persisting with this relationship which is doing more damage than good. 

There's a page on here called Characteristics of Healthy Relationships:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships
It has a checklist:
So, Is Your Relationship Healthy?

A. Can you say what you like or admire about your partner? I got nothing.

B. Is your partner glad that you have other friends? No way! It causes her distress.

C. Is your partner happy about your accomplishments and ambitions? No way! She actively disapproves of my passions.

D. Does your partner ask for and respect your opinions? No way! It's her way or the highway. If I propose something, I'm a "dictator".

E. Does she/he really listen to you? No way! You're kidding, right?

F. Can she/he talk about her/his feelings? No way! She can't even deal acknowledge her own feelings to herself.

G. Does your partner have a good relationship with her/his family? With HER family, yes. With mine, No way!

H. Does she/he have good friends? No. Just distant friends.  The only people she confides in are her family, but even then I don't think she really opens up.

I. Does she/he have interests besides you? Do reading about celebrity plastic surgery, TV soaps and our son count?

J. Does she/he take responsibility for her/his actions and not blame others for her/his failures?  It's never her fault, always someone else's. Usually mine.

K. Does your partner respect your right to make decisions that affect your own life?  No way! See Answer D.

L. Are you and your partner friends? Best friends?  I would never treat a friend the way she treats me. So no. I would never be as tolerant of abuse from a friend of mine.


Why would any sane person persist in such an unhealthy situation?

There's another page on here called Leaving a person with BPD:
www.https://bpdfamily.org/2010/12/leaving-person-with-borderline_28.html

It lists beliefs that can "get us stuck":
1) Belief that this person holds the key to your happiness
Not in my case. She holds the key to my misery and she uses the key a lot.
2) Belief that your BPD partner feels the same way that you feel
She pretty much always demonstrates the polar opposite feelings from my own
3) Belief that the relationship problems are caused by you or some circumstance
The relationship problems are because she is incapable of empathy, trust, intimacy and love.
4) Belief that love can prevail
I gave up hope on that years ago
5) Belief that things will return to "the way they used to be"
ditto
6) Clinging to the words that were said
It's been so long since I have heard words worth clinging on to
7) Belief that if you say it louder you will be heard
I think I get it now. She's deaf. Metaphorically.
8) Belief that absence makes the heart grow fonder
I stay away from her a few minutes/hours on purpose when we're apart, to give my heart time to heal, not grow fonder
9) Belief that you need to stay to help them.
She's capable of looking after herself.
10) Belief that they have seen the light
She's damaged to the core. She's not going to see the light.

True codependents seem to be characterised by the need to have the BPD/Narc/Addict in their life.  I feel more like a prisoner who doesn't know how to escape.

I'm fast approaching burnout.  I don't think I have the energy to absorb all her hate any more.