Finally had time to look inwards

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hello there!

Its been almost 9 months since my uBPDh and I split up.  Our separation was the result of my own journey of boundaries and a final decision (by me) that I would no longer expose our young son (now 2 1/2) to the dysfunction in our house. 

I started implementing sound boundaries in probably March 2013 and asked my husband to move out at the end of December 2013 (by 'ask' I mean advised him that if he didn't vacate, he would spend Christmas in jail, awaiting a court date for some of his less impressive behaviors towards me   Fast forward - all involved (me, husband, and son) seem to be far better off.

Which leads me to my own personal inventory -

For about 7 years I have been peeling back my own personal dysfunction. 

Step 1 was dealing with my uBPD mother (not as bad as my husband) got that relationship under control. 

Step 2 was addressing my marriage.  Sadly that didn't work out, but have rediscovered such a lovely life without him (though we still interact a lot due to sharing time with our son).

Step 3:  addressing what I believe is actually the source of my dysfunction:  for the first time in a decade I have the time and energy to look inwards and understand that there is something wrong with me (I say that with self love and acceptance)... .been in a series of marathon therapy sessions trying to understand my own internal sadness and where it comes from.  Selecting people who are not emotionally available etc. 

Strangely I am totally at peace with my uPD mother and her brand of 'crazy', what I never dealt with was my dad.  The intelligent, witty, quirky man who raised me (and prob saved me - at least superficially - I am a successful professional woman)... .and an underlying sadness of why he never stood up to my mom's craziness.  He had it in him... .he just never chose to do it.  Why wasn't I worth it... .?  I believe in my heart of hearts that if my dad had had the lessons and taken the same path I did that he would have stayed married to my mom (she is mild BPD) and that he could have managed the mania in my house.  No one did.  AND my brother and I were subject to her eternal ups and downs. 

Every therapy session I go to (3 so far)... .I cry and cry and cry.  And the therapist explained today (validated actually) that the reason that I stayed with my psychologically, emotionally and physically abusive husband for 10 years was that he was the FIRST person in my life to notice or care what was going on with me. 

So... .I am just sharing because its THE FIRST TIME EVER that I am worried about and focused on me. 

I turned a corner in March 2013... .and though its been a tiring journey... .I can actually see a future with me being a 'healthy and whole' person (though I may need a telescope to see it!).  There are rough patches, but generally each morning I wake up, the view gets clearer... .and MOST importantly... .I know that I am a good and stable parent to my son.  He is carefree and happy and I know that 1 year ago he wasn't that same carefree and happy child.

Has anyone else experienced this journey or have I been drinking too much of the kool aid?

[allibaba]

Hello there!

Its been almost 9 months since my uBPDh and I split up.  Our separation was the result of my own journey of boundaries and a final decision (by me) that I would no longer expose our young son (now 2 1/2) to the dysfunction in our house. 

I started implementing sound boundaries in probably March 2013 and asked my husband to move out at the end of December 2013 (by 'ask' I mean advised him that if he didn't vacate, he would spend Christmas in jail, awaiting a court date for some of his less impressive behaviors towards me   Fast forward - all involved (me, husband, and son) seem to be far better off.

Which leads me to my own personal inventory -

For about 7 years I have been peeling back my own personal dysfunction. 

Step 1 was dealing with my uBPD mother (not as bad as my husband) got that relationship under control. 

Step 2 was addressing my marriage.  Sadly that didn't work out, but have rediscovered such a lovely life without him (though we still interact a lot due to sharing time with our son).

Step 3:  addressing what I believe is actually the source of my dysfunction:  for the first time in a decade I have the time and energy to look inwards and understand that there is something wrong with me (I say that with self love and acceptance)... .been in a series of marathon therapy sessions trying to understand my own internal sadness and where it comes from.  Selecting people who are not emotionally available etc. 

Strangely I am totally at peace with my uPD mother and her brand of 'crazy', what I never dealt with was my dad.  The intelligent, witty, quirky man who raised me (and prob saved me - at least superficially - I am a successful professional woman)... .and an underlying sadness of why he never stood up to my mom's craziness.  He had it in him... .he just never chose to do it.  Why wasn't I worth it... .?  I believe in my heart of hearts that if my dad had had the lessons and taken the same path I did that he would have stayed married to my mom (she is mild BPD) and that he could have managed the mania in my house.  No one did.  AND my brother and I were subject to her eternal ups and downs. 

Every therapy session I go to (3 so far)... .I cry and cry and cry.  And the therapist explained today (validated actually) that the reason that I stayed with my psychologically, emotionally and physically abusive husband for 10 years was that he was the FIRST person in my life to notice or care what was going on with me. 

So... .I am just sharing because its THE FIRST TIME EVER that I am worried about and focused on me. 

I turned a corner in March 2013... .and though its been a tiring journey... .I can actually see a future with me being a 'healthy and whole' person (though I may need a telescope to see it!).  There are rough patches, but generally each morning I wake up, the view gets clearer... .and MOST importantly... .I know that I am a good and stable parent to my son.  He is carefree and happy and I know that 1 year ago he wasn't that same carefree and happy child.

Has anyone else experienced this journey or have I been drinking too much of the kool aid?

[Pingo]

Wow, what a wonderful inspiring story!  I had an amazing therapy session today as well and we discussed my father as well and his part in my issues today.  Apparently I have been in a LOT of denial!  I feel like an onion with layers upon layers peeling off me right now.  This agony of grief and the subsequent realisation that I have been abused... .not only in this r/s but others and in complete denial about it... .has been transformative!  My therapist told me today that I CAN heal this, that the tides have shifted.  I am encouraged and find your story so encouraging as well. May your healing journey take you to unexpected heights!

[Perfidy]

Dysfunction is not manageable. Commonly we attempt to manage the wrong things. Happiness and love are manageable. Whatever you polish will shine.

[allibaba]

Apparently I have been in a LOT of denial!  I feel like an onion with layers upon layers peeling off me right now.  This agony of grief and the subsequent realisation that I have been abused... .not only in this r/s but others and in complete denial about it... .has been transformative! 

Yay.  Its not just me.  That is exactly where I am and its very nice to see others in the same place

One thing that the therapist pointed out to me was that the minute I start to feel uncomfortable... .I go into a thing about how grateful I am for my life.  She said its actually a coping mechanism for me.  Who would have thought that 'an attitude of gratitute' could be an escape mechanism.  She encouraged me to pause and stop problem solving and being grateful for long enough to stay in my pain (because that is going to be the only way to repair the brokenness).  In repairing myself I will stop pursuing emotionally unfulfilled relationships.

I was also in a huge amount of denial.  I have always considered my dad my savior.  My rock in a crazy world.  I went to the therapist to deal with the fact that my dad has Alzheimer's and he is finally mentally gone (for a long time, I could still reach him).  The therapist said she could tell that there was more to my relationship with my dad because I pass over him so quickly with no details where my descriptions of the present or of my mom or husband are so vivid.  I feel grateful that I have found a good therapist.  Am glad I finally have time to think about me

[Grey Kitty]

This sounds like some fantastic work you are doing for (on?) yourself. Congratulations!

What I read was that your T is working through this with you. I didn't see a question for us--do you have anything you would like to explore here?

BTW, Your T's suggestion of sitting with the pain and experiencing it sounds like good (but difficult!) work.

 GK

[Hope0807]

I applaud you and find myself on a very similar journey.  After many years of questioning and spinning in circles losing myself, within a few short weeks I realized:  my mother was a mild but ferociously negative and depressive BPD, the man I tried to love and recently banished me into oblivion was a raging, high functioning, dangerous BPD and secret drug addict with criminal behavior beyond my wildest dreams.  Stay strong and keep us posted!

Hello there!

Its been almost 9 months since my uBPDh and I split up.  Our separation was the result of my own journey of boundaries and a final decision (by me) that I would no longer expose our young son (now 2 1/2) to the dysfunction in our house. 

I started implementing sound boundaries in probably March 2013 and asked my husband to move out at the end of December 2013 (by 'ask' I mean advised him that if he didn't vacate, he would spend Christmas in jail, awaiting a court date for some of his less impressive behaviors towards me   Fast forward - all involved (me, husband, and son) seem to be far better off.

Which leads me to my own personal inventory -

For about 7 years I have been peeling back my own personal dysfunction. 

Step 1 was dealing with my uBPD mother (not as bad as my husband) got that relationship under control. 

Step 2 was addressing my marriage.  Sadly that didn't work out, but have rediscovered such a lovely life without him (though we still interact a lot due to sharing time with our son).

Step 3:  addressing what I believe is actually the source of my dysfunction:  for the first time in a decade I have the time and energy to look inwards and understand that there is something wrong with me (I say that with self love and acceptance)... .been in a series of marathon therapy sessions trying to understand my own internal sadness and where it comes from.  Selecting people who are not emotionally available etc. 

Strangely I am totally at peace with my uPD mother and her brand of 'crazy', what I never dealt with was my dad.  The intelligent, witty, quirky man who raised me (and prob saved me - at least superficially - I am a successful professional woman)... .and an underlying sadness of why he never stood up to my mom's craziness.  He had it in him... .he just never chose to do it.  Why wasn't I worth it... .?  I believe in my heart of hearts that if my dad had had the lessons and taken the same path I did that he would have stayed married to my mom (she is mild BPD) and that he could have managed the mania in my house.  No one did.  AND my brother and I were subject to her eternal ups and downs. 

Every therapy session I go to (3 so far)... .I cry and cry and cry.  And the therapist explained today (validated actually) that the reason that I stayed with my psychologically, emotionally and physically abusive husband for 10 years was that he was the FIRST person in my life to notice or care what was going on with me. 

So... .I am just sharing because its THE FIRST TIME EVER that I am worried about and focused on me. 

I turned a corner in March 2013... .and though its been a tiring journey... .I can actually see a future with me being a 'healthy and whole' person (though I may need a telescope to see it!).  There are rough patches, but generally each morning I wake up, the view gets clearer... .and MOST importantly... .I know that I am a good and stable parent to my son.  He is carefree and happy and I know that 1 year ago he wasn't that same carefree and happy child.

Has anyone else experienced this journey or have I been drinking too much of the kool aid?

[allibaba]

I didn't see a question for us--do you have anything you would like to explore here?

Strangely I am totally at peace with my uPD mother and her brand of 'crazy', what I never dealt with was my dad.  The intelligent, witty, quirky man who raised me (and prob saved me - at least superficially - I am a successful professional woman)... .and an underlying sadness of why he never stood up to my mom's craziness.  He had it in him... .he just never chose to do it.  Why wasn't I worth it... .? 

Has anyone else experienced this journey or have I been drinking too much of the kool aid?

Great question Grey Kitty -- my questions/ thoughts were kind of hard to decipher -- so thanks for asking. 

So the thing that hit upside the head was that I have been at peace with my uBPD mom for years but that most of my pain (and therefore dysfunction) is rooted in the fact that my dad did not stand up for us (when he was very capable of it).  I think its easy to point to and complain about the BPD in our lives but we often overlook 'the other person' (in my childhood - my dad, in my marriage - me!)  I walked around thinking to myself that I was being a good parent and thank god for me because my husband was so crazy... .but prior to establishing boundaries with my husband I was just as much a culprit as he was (one could argue MORE culpable because I do not suffer from mental illness.  I should know better.  I am capable of more.  I have the capacity to be healthy, I was just choosing not to (just as my dad chose not to).

I have to say that this is a hard truth to swallow because for years I have pointed to my dad as my great savior and a good role model, as an adult I have almost worshiped him... .as I bring the mirror up and look hard, I also can see that for at least a year and a half of my sons life... .I was putting him in great emotional and psychological danger.

I can sleep easier at night because there is no question that I have broken a cycle (a cycle which I can trace back at least 3 generations in my family).  That being said, I thought by becoming strong and standing up to my husband that I was breaking the bonds of my own dysfunction (and in a big way, I was) but without continuing to look inwards I am still unsettled and left unchecked (and untreated) it puts me at risk for pursuing other unhealthy things (alcohol, other unhealthy relationships/ friendships, misuse of money).  The reality is that while I am 'high functioning' I am still in a great deal of pain internally.  Why didn't I matter enough to be taken care of as a little girl?  I lived in a house that was void of emotional support, any show of affection or love.  (I can't ever remember anyone asking how I was doing or telling me that they loved me in my childhood - my dad never told me that he loved me and my mom only started doing it when I was in my 30's)

The good news is that I have removed all the distractions and for once may attention to myself.  Its almost a relief to acknowledge where 'the hole' comes from. 

I wonder if this is common among 'US' (members of these boards) or whether my situation is unusual.  How many of us who are a product of a BPD upbringing are more damaged by the inability of the QUOTE UNQUOTE healthy parent to protect us. 

[Harri]

Hi allibaba.  Your post broke my heart.  This part, right here: 

Why didn't I matter enough to be taken care of as a little girl?

Allibaba, you did matter and you still do matter.  You did deserve to be taken care of and protected and loved in a healthy way by your father.  He is the one who is flawed.  He is the one who took the precious gift that is you and abandoned you... .and sat around and watched while he did it.  You are worth so much more that he gave you.   

There is a book called Understanding the Borderline Mother that I think is an excellent read.  It gave me insight into my mother, but also some of the very craptacular behaviors I have as a result of living with a uBPD mother and a father who had his own issues.  There is a section in the book called Fairy Tale Fathers that may help you to understand or see your fathers role in the relationship.  If you search Fairy tale fathers on this site, you will pull up some excellent threads on the topic of Non dads.  Here is one:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=152434.0

I am so very happy that you have broken the cycle and that you still continue to work on your history and your present.  The fact that you took action to protect your son and yourself is wonderful and courageous.  So many of us 'kids of' do go on to repeat the cycle.  And so many of us never even get that chance. 

I consider myself very fortunate in life and your post made me wonder if I too use that as an escape mechanism, so thank you for that.  I think it is a strength to be able to see the good in life even when we are surrounded by crap, but perhaps we do take it too far.

I know that you are alone in being more angry or hurt by your non father.  I am new here, but I have been in the process of healing from growing up with an uBPD mother who was pretty low functioning and an Non dad (though I am quite sure he had his own issues, definitely depression and perhaps avoidant PD, or dependent PD? NPD? I don't really know) for about 10 years.  Identifying my feelings for my mom and dealing with her abuse has been relatively easy as she was so over the top and simultaneously she was just soo BIG personality wise that my dad was dwarfed by her.  She also did quite a bit of parental alienation even though my parents remained married (both are now dead).  At one point, I had a conversation with my dad about my mother.  He said he knew she was crazy.  He told me he knew there was something wrong with her when he first met her, but he just went along to keep the peace.  He sat back and watched horrendous things taking place.  It was bittersweet to hear him say those things but it broke me in a way I was not prepared for.  I had spent quite a bit of time longing for validation from either my mother (not likely and never did get it) and from my father... .and there I had it.  It was not the happy triumphant moment I had thought it would be. 

I have so much anger and hurt in me towards my father.  It is only lately that I have become aware of just how much.  For a long time my dad was like a ghost.  He was and still is so hazy in my mind and heart because my mom was such a huge force in all of our lives.  Lately, I realized I have been classifying Non as meaning horribly flawed and disordered just as much, if not more, that how I view my mother.  It is wrong, and it is my anger and hurt coming out sideways.  Search the site on non fathers.  If you haven't, visit the section here on dealing with families.  You will find you have lots of company in terms of your feelings for your father. 

Again, you deserved to be loved and nurtured by both of your parents.  I think it is wonderful that you are now working on giving yourself that love and nurturing.   

[Harri]

This is another link to an old thread on Non fathers.  10 pages long. 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=43214.0

[allibaba]

Hi allibaba.  Your post broke my heart.  This part, right here: 

Why didn't I matter enough to be taken care of as a little girl?

Allibaba, you did matter and you still do matter.  You did deserve to be taken care of and protected and loved in a healthy way by your father.  He is the one who is flawed.  He is the one who took the precious gift that is you and abandoned you... .and sat around and watched while he did it.  You are worth so much more that he gave you.   

There is a book called Understanding the Borderline Mother that I think is an excellent read.  It gave me insight into my mother, but also some of the very craptacular behaviors I have as a result of living with a uBPD mother and a father who had his own issues.  There is a section in the book called Fairy Tale Fathers that may help you to understand or see your fathers role in the relationship. 

Ohhhh this is good stuff.  By the time that I got to these boards, I had good boundaries in place with my mom.  I even took a 2 week trip with her early this summer and we all did ok (my mom, my 2 yr old and I).

By the time I got to these boards, my issues were with my husband... .I spent all my time on Staying (for now!  )... .I didn't spend any time on the children of BPD board.  It sounds like I should.  I will go read about the Fairy Tale Fathers!

Its funny that you mentioned that one line.  It took my therapist some serious effort to drag it out of me... .

Why didn't I matter enough to be taken care of as a little girl?

I have been through a lot in my life and I actually forgot some of the things that I have dragged myself through (as in clawed my way to recovery)... .I can remember being this horribly neurotic young woman... .obsessive... .controlling... .she is almost a distant memory... .I *actually* "forgot" that I was full on bulimic between maybe 13 yrs old and maybe 17 or 18 yrs old.  I don't have food issues anymore.  That is also a distant memory.  What was horrifying was the realization that I had a serious eating disorder for that long and no one had a clue.  No one in my family ever payed enough attention.  That hurts.  I think it was my cry for help... .but when no one noticed, I dug inwards to help myself.  I never even told anyone.  Not friends... .not family... .not even a professional... .(well until Friday's therapy)... .

My husband was the first person who cared for me in more than a completely superficial way... .I finally get why I clung to our abusive relationship like I did.  I would probably still be clinging to it, but in my heart I knew that it would ruin our son and the price was frankly too high.

I can analyze my dad and why he 'did what he did' about a million ways.  I can make excuses up and down all day long.  (I also consider myself very lucky - even with dysfunction I have had a very good life).  I guess the hardest part today is knowing that I established healthy boundaries with my husband because my son was too important not to... .so why couldn't my dad do the same?  My dad was far stronger than I am (personality wise).

But writing that last sentence just made me realize something heart breaking - in June 2012 - my dad spent a month with me here in my home.  It was the point that I realized something was wrong (Alzheimer's).  The morning that he left, my husband drove us all to the airport.  Our son was 6 months old at the time.  I was in the back seat with our son and my dad was in the passenger front seat.  It was 5 am in the morning for an early flight... .and my dad really wasn't 100% (hard to explain but he already had some brain damage which caused damage to his memory and in turn made it more difficult to identify the Alzheimers)... .

My husband became verbally abusive towards me in the car in front of my dad.  And my dad said to him "You stop speaking to her like that right now.  No one will speak to my daughter like that.  She deserves to be treated with respect."  I vividly remember exactly where we were on the highway... .  I remember being so surprised by my dad.

My dad is a sober alcoholic.  In my childhood he was drinking.  He stopped drinking in 2007.  (The brain damage was a result of stopping cold turkey and the seizures etc.) That one little memory (also forgotten until right now)... .demonstrates to me that he was trying to 'make it right'.  He may not have stood up to my mom and he may have allowed her to be abusive, but years later (in his 70's) he was willing to stand up to my husband (who was way more intimidating).  My husband was violent and had a terrible temper and was physically intimidating... .but my dad still took him on.

Thank you for triggering that memory for me.  I forgot!  Tears pouring down my face.  Thank you.

[allibaba]

I definitely hit a nerve within myself this weekend / Friday.  

Having to do a lot of deep breathing to settle into the anxiety that came up this morning (and not do something neurotic to make myself artificially feel better!)  I don't normally have anxiety... .I do not envy people that do!

[Grey Kitty]

  I didn't have the sort of childhood you did, so I'm not able to share how I'm processing it here. I can say that you absolutely did not deserve it as a little girl!

However I do have one perspective-ish thought on your dad: Generally people choose a partner who is (roughly) at the same level of emotional development. So the first approximation is that both your mom and dad were roughly equally messed up.   However, most of these relationships have two people doing a dysfunctional dance... .choreographed in such a way that one of them appears to be creating the problem(s) and the other appears to be fixing the problem(s).

You seem to be noticing that there is more to the picture now--You are thinking that your father could have protected you from your mother. Well... .if he really could have, he would have. There was more going on there!

[vre]

The things that happen to us in childhood retain greater potency, I think, because in recalling them we tend to sort of regress emotionally back to childhood as well; our adult perspective kind of abandons us. There were things that happened between my father and I when I was a kid (a couple of episodes of excessive physical punishment, and not infrequent harsh words that could fairly be called verbal abuse).

My parents both had difficult childhoods, and I'm sure tried to do better by their children than they'd been done by themselves. Even when I was a kid, it was obvious to me that I had conscientious parents that were trying to do right by me. So why did I often feel so weird and stressed around them? I figured it was just me, until I graduated from college, and my roommate was around them for a day or so. When they headed off, as soon as they were out of earshot, he cracked "... .and thank you to my parents, for their continued indifference." He came right out and said he thought it was strange how detached and undemonstrative they both were.

As a young adult, one thing I knew for certain is that I wanted to be nothing like my father. As time passed, a couple of funny things happened. Apparently he learned that a lot of the stuff I did as a kid that infuriated him were things he'd done himself at that age, and as I approached 30 or so I was surprised to find myself developing a real rapport with him.

It seemed to me that as a father he'd done a lot of things right. When and if my turn came, I could do those things too, do my best to forgo the flying off the handle parts, and give them the words of love and encouragement, and the physical affection I'd not gotten much of myself.

My brother drew much the same lesson and has carried it out with his kids. Our father watched us in action, and out of the blue one day acknowledged that he kind of screwed up with me and that he was sorry, and that my brother and I were far better fathers than he was.

I said, "I appreciate you saying that. But I also know you did the best you could with where you started from, and you set a good example for us to follow, in a lot more ways than not."

Even having healed the breach, and my parents getting a sort of do-over as grandparents, enjoying the kids and vice versa, it's difficult for me to go back and think about things my father did that were out of line, without getting upset about it all over again. I just have to be careful with that.

One thing that helped me gain perspective on that was finding out something about the burden of grief my father carried from his own childhood. My mother and he were discussing something about his relatives, and she touched on something that it turned out was a very loaded subject for him concerning his own mother. He got all choked up and quiet, and stayed upset enough about it to avoid talking to his mother for a couple of months. This is a guy who was about 60 at the time, whose everyday job decisions carried responsibility for the lives of hundreds of people.

I have a lot of respect for my father, and by any reasonable measure he's a very competent and mature individual. If a certain bad recollection can turn him back into a 10 year old, I'm a lot less concerned that it happens to me too.

Of course, it would've been better all around if he'd gotten more effective parenting when he needed it, and had managed better with me when I was a kid, and if your father had protected you properly.

It sounds like your father figured it out, but it was way too late to really have much positive impact. There may've been events in his own childhood when he took some damage.

I hope that it's of some encouragement to you that you've drastically improved on the example he set.

[drummerboy]

This thread is so heart warming even though the topics are difficult.

After I broke up I went to a therapist. Eventually we got into inner child stuff. Sometimes I'd come out of a session feeling like I'd been run over by a train. So many tears, I've never cried like that before.

Anyhow, I have a 4 year old daughter and I got the book homecoming that is a self help book about getting in touch with your inner child. It has affirmations that you are to tell your inner child. My 4 yo was very young when I got divorced and was not the outgoing kid her 7 yo sister is. I started spending a lot more time with her and telling her some of the affirmations "I love you so much" "I'll always love you" "I'm so glad you're my daughter" and a few others. Her transformation has been remarkable. The affirmations were basically the same ones that my therapist thought that I didn't get or feel as a kid. So my BPD hell experience has an upside, it has caused me to be a much better dad!

[allibaba]

Reading all of these responses really makes me feel better.

Simple acknowledgement of where our parents were at. 

No judgement or blame. 

Just a simple understanding of the role that they played in our own dysfunction. 

I have another therapy session first thing tomorrow morning... .NO PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME... .I DON'T WANNA GO... .!

I am supposed to write a letter to my dad saying what I need to say... .(ha ha I was supposed to do that for the last session and majorly procrastinated it!) My therapist is going on maternity leave next week or the week after in this lovely hippy country where we get a year for mat leave so (Canada)... .me thinks best not to procrastinate and just git her done.

I started spending a lot more time with her and telling her some of the affirmations "I love you so much" "I'll always love you" "I'm so glad you're my daughter" and a few others.

Thanks for this Bauie.  I am not sure why, but intuitively I knew to start doing the affirmations with my son.  I tell him very regularly ":)o you know how much I love you?"  "You are the best thing that has ever happened to me!"  "I love you the whole world."  He giggles and says "I know mommy!"  or nods his head vigorously.  I am a pretty tough with him but he has flourished since I split from my husband. 

I can so relate to the feeling of being run over by a freight train.  I am hating this therapy.

And vre, I actually recently learned a lot more about the dynamics in my dad's family.  Before he fell into Alzheimer's he told me that the way that my husband acts reminds him a lot of how his dad started to act when he got back from World War II. 

His dad was a one star General in the US Army.  He spent the war in the South Pacific.  My dad was born in 1941 and he really met his dad after the war.  His dad had a terrible temper and my dad would do something that made his dad upset as a kid and his dad would get into a huff and wouldn't speak to him or his mom for days.  At the end of my marriage my husband was hiding in the basement not speaking to my son or I more than 50% of the time.  The point is that his childhood was hard too... .and he was a product of his upbringing. 

Thanks again everyone.  Muy helpful.

[Cumulus]

Hi allibaba, at this point what I have to say is merely redundant. After reading your thread a couple days ago it has been playing a lot in my head and I do feel the need to respond. Initially it was my own relation to your feelings, but at this point in my life I have largely worked through my FOO issues. It then became my own adult daughters talking to me through your post. It has made for some hard truths for me to face. In our case their father has BPD and I was the "normal" one. Your question of why didn't I matter enough to be taken care of as a little girl, haunts me. I believe my daughters must feel that way toward me. Maybe they don't even realize that is the question they need answered. I am going to try and answer that for you and then I will answer it for them as well.

Dearest daughter, you do matter, you have always mattered to me. From the first moment I held you in my arms I wanted to care for you and protect you. I failed in so many ways. I was so busy holding our lives together that I forgot you were the reason I was working so hard. I was isolated where we lived, there was no sister, aunt, grandparent or friend to help me care for you. Your father refused to look after you until you were four or five years old. If you woke at night I tended to you. If I had to run to the store for milk I would have to take you with me. Many were the nights I would walk the floor with you, our tears mingling. I was so lonely and desperate and I had no help. Any time you ciried it was my fault, I was doing something wrong. As you grew your father began to be very critical and demanding of you. Finding fault in what you did. I would tell him to stop. We would argue and then you and I would cry. I thought this was normal. It was the way I was brought up except my mother didn't stand up for me the way I did for you. I thought I was doing a good job. I know now I wasn't. I see the harm the critical remarks, the continuos arguments and the always threat of physical abuse did to you. I am so sorry. When I found out you were bulimic I told you to stop. That was all I thought was needed. I didn't see what a cry for help it was. I was far too busy trying to ignore the firestorm that was raging around our family. I thought if you ignored things they would go away. Bury them deep enough and things will be ok. Above all else what is important is to put a good face on things, don't let anyone know you have troubles or are suffering. I just didn't know. How could I have known? What would have helped me to be a good mother? It wasn't you dearest. You were the most precious child a mother could ever want and you have grown into a beautiful woman, full of empathy and caring. I love you.

[allibaba]

Dearest daughter, you do matter, you have always mattered to me. From the first moment I held you in my arms I wanted to care for you and protect you. I failed in so many ways. I was so busy holding our lives together that I forgot you were the reason I was working so hard. I was isolated where we lived, there was no sister, aunt, grandparent or friend to help me care for you. Your father refused to look after you until you were four or five years old. If you woke at night I tended to you. If I had to run to the store for milk I would have to take you with me. Many were the nights I would walk the floor with you, our tears mingling. I was so lonely and desperate and I had no help. Any time you cried it was my fault, I was doing something wrong.

Hi there Cumulus,

Your post made me cry (obviously been doing a lot of that recently!) The part above, I have been EXACTLY there.  I know the isolation and the pain.  I get it.  I totally get it.  We did the best that we could do at that moment.  My dad did too.  I know that in my heart despite feeling the pain and the grief of a lost childhood.

I had to grow up very quickly and I was a very serious and sad, successful little girl.  Perfect grades.  Perfect image.  I only learned to be silly and joyful and imperfect in my late 20's and early 30's... .I am only settling into it and learning to be comfortable in it NOW with my son.

I had another therapy session on Wednesday and it was a lot easier than the first two.  It wasn't so painful to acknowledge my dad as a flawed person as it was initially.  This venting.  This thinking. It has helped a lot.  I know its early days but I will know peace and joy in my life.  

What is your relationship with your adult daughter?  Are you able to say some of those things to her now?  Would it help her?  Would it help you?  Have you already?

I often wonder about my own relationship.  Things got really awful in my house before I put the breaks on my husband's behavior.  I was lucky in a lot of ways because it all happened when my son was very young. It had an impact, but he won't remember it in his conscious mind.  His dad seems to have pulled himself together and so far their relationship is pretty good.  

I was fortunate to stumble on this site.  I was fortunate to run into the right people on this site at exactly the right time.  

My husband was violent.  

Not towards my son, but towards me.  

When I kicked him out there wasn't another option.  

I didn't want to be another statistic and it wasn't a far fetched possibility.  

I had done a lot of work around boundaries with verbal abuse before the physical abuse became a serious problem.  I was able to establish a clear and concise boundary around physical abuse and cling to it like it was the last thing on earth.  I didn't hesitate or delay the last time I called 911 (talk about things that I never thought I would say in my life  ).  Life takes us to strange old places sometimes.

If all the factors hadn't collided at the same time, I really don't know if I would have had the strength to get out.  In addition to that, I had resources that many women don't have (self supporting), good career and am extremely independent (thank you twisted childhood)... .not to mention am very even keel emotionally and have good common sense.  

I often sit back and wonder how other women do it.  I have so much and it was so hard for me.  

I was far too busy trying to ignore the firestorm that was raging around our family. I thought if you ignored things they would go away. Bury them deep enough and things will be ok. Above all else what is important is to put a good face on things, don't let anyone know you have troubles or are suffering. I just didn't know. How could I have known?

I can absolutely relate to this too.  And my heart breaks for you too.

None of your post was redundant.  In fact, hearing the pain from the other side is very helpful and oddly very healing.

[Harri]

Hi Allibaba.  It sounds like you have been doing a lot of hard and painful work.  Your attitude and willingness to look within and share your experiences is very helpful and inspiring, so thank you.

Some of the responses here are quite painful to read as they touch on my anger and hurt towards my non father.  It's all good though as it just further highlights what I need to still work through.  I get that my parents had difficult childhoods and did the best they could based on what they knew.  I know their parents did the same and I can follow the pattern of dysfunction back quite far.  Beyond understanding the legacy of dysfunction, I think blame is a pointless exercise, as is the question of intent on the part of my parents.  At the same time though, I also believe that to heal I must place the responsibility for what happened back then squarely on my parents while taking responsibility for the person I am today.  Whether they intended to hurt me or not, the fact remains that I was hurt and abused at their hands and I am now responsible for taking care of me and the person I am.

The Existential Paradox from Dr. Joseph Santoro:  We are not responsible for how we came to be who we are as adults, but as adults we are responsible for whom we have become and for everything we say and do.

I love this as it empowers me and helps me to focus on what I need to focus on to heal.  I find great comfort in this quote and lately i want to plaster it all over the place!   

Thanks again for letting me participate on this thread and for sharing this painful part of your journey.  To the other parents who have posted here, I want to thank you as well.  It is so very good to see parents who are aware and are trying to change patterns of behavior or intervene and be a positive influence in what sometimes seems to be a sea of crazy.  It just hurts to know my dad was not willing to do the same. 

[drummerboy]

I can't believe how much kindness and gentleness there is in these groups. Everyone is committed to sharing and helping each other. This is a very healing place. Just wanted to say thanks to everyone.

[allibaba]

Was this thread really just a month and a half ago?  It feels like it was a lifetime ago!

I walked through all that pain and heartache... .for maybe 3 weeks... .and one day the cloud lifted and I felt different. 

I actually feel like a healthier, more well balanced person.

Thanks for the thoughts and guidance!

[patientandclear]

Alli, I just read this (I don't come to Personal Inventory very often).  You know my story ... .I think being a mom is what saved my own chance for happiness, too.  I don't know why I was so willing to stay through abuse, but I do know that adding my daughter into the picture changed things for me enough to need to get out.  When she was the same age as your son was when you ended things with your exH.

I think we are lucky we had kids.  Somehow I was able to do for her what I wasn't able to do for myself.  I hear you about wondering how a parent could NOT take those steps.  Anyway ... .I am still so moved at the strength you showed in doing what was needed to end what was going on, which was not in your H's interest, let alone yours or your son's.  You're wonderful. 

[allibaba]

I think we are lucky we had kids.  Somehow I was able to do for her what I wasn't able to do for myself.  I hear you about wondering how a parent could NOT take those steps.  Anyway ... .I am still so moved at the strength you showed in doing what was needed to end what was going on, which was not in your H's interest, let alone yours or your son's.  You're wonderful. 

Hi there patientandclear,

You have definitely been with me through this journey.  I remember you posting when I was dealing with some of the more difficult stuff with my husband back in summer 2013.  You pushed me sometimes (gently) and I remember feeling very uncomfortable. 

Thank you.  Thank you for the validation and thank you for the reminder that I am not alone.  Right now the only thing that haunts me is that I didn't take action for me... .I did it for my son.  I mean its obviously a good thing but "why wasn't I important enough to protect myself?  I did a lot of work back in the late summer early fall and I still feel like a different person in a good way. 

I recently met a very nice man and am getting my first look at what a normal relationship feels like.  I wondered a lot about getting into another unhealthy relationship after I split up with my uBPD husband.  I even briefly toyed with entering another relationship that was just as emotionally unavailable (though not at all abusive).

Through the painful work at the beginning of this post... .I put the brakes on the potential emotionally unavailable relationship (phew, dodged a bullet there!) and 3 weeks later the new guy strolled in.  The only reason that I had done a bit of dating was to test my new found boundary skills and make sure I was proficient at identifying red flags (and walking away from them).  I didn't actually intend to or even want to meet someone! 

I was extremely clear up front with the new guy about the things that I could not tolerate (any demonstration of violence, abusive or controlling behavior, or even showing a temper).  I explained that everyone gets to have mistakes but after what my son and I have been through... .well my ex used those up.  I now know that even if 'prince charming' (giggle) turns into a toad I WILL NOT HESITATE TO EXIT IMMEDIATELY.  That knowledge gives me a lot of internal peace and it feels good.  I know that it wouldn't be for just my son either... .it would be for me too!

I recently told my ex about my new relationship and have been the subject of his abusive wrath.  I validated and moved out of his cross hairs.  He had been on his best behavior for more than 6 months so it was confirmation that nothing has changed with him.  Fortunately he was still on his best behavior when we finalized all the legal stuff and he can't reopen it. 

I suspect that he is going to abandon our son... .having a relationship with his little boy seems to be too painful for him... .so the next order of business is to determine the best way to handle it.  What to say.  What to do.  I will probably go spend some time on the PARENTING AFTER THE SPLIT board. 

It never ends does it?   

Anyway ... .I am still so moved at the strength you showed in doing what was needed to end what was going on, which was not in your H's interest, let alone yours or your son's.  You're wonderful. 

This bit made me cry.  Thank you!  I know now that my son has a good, stable mom and that he is lucky to have me   Talk about things I never thought that I would say about myself.  I also have the most loving and generous people popping up out of the woodwork around me.  Its strange how I decided that I was worth it and all of a sudden everyone else seems to think so too... .  or maybe they were always out there but I never opened up myself to being cared for because I didn't know how to do it.

[allibaba]

Strangely I am totally at peace with my uPD mother and her brand of 'crazy', what I never dealt with was my dad.  The intelligent, witty, quirky man who raised me (and prob saved me - at least superficially - I am a successful professional woman)... .and an underlying sadness of why he never stood up to my mom's craziness.  He had it in him... .he just never chose to do it.  Why wasn't I worth it... .?  I believe in my heart of hearts that if my dad had had the lessons and taken the same path I did that he would have stayed married to my mom (she is mild BPD) and that he could have managed the mania in my house.  No one did.  AND my brother and I were subject to her eternal ups and downs. 

What made me start this thread above... .

And my moment of enlightenment below.

I can analyze my dad and why he 'did what he did' about a million ways.  I can make excuses up and down all day long.  (I also consider myself very lucky - even with dysfunction I have had a very good life).  I guess the hardest part today is knowing that I established healthy boundaries with my husband because my son was too important not to... .so why couldn't my dad do the same?  My dad was far stronger than I am (personality wise).

But writing that last sentence just made me realize something heart breaking - in June 2012 - my dad spent a month with me here in my home.  It was the point that I realized something was wrong (Alzheimer's).  The morning that he left, my husband drove us all to the airport.  Our son was 6 months old at the time.  I was in the back seat with our son and my dad was in the passenger front seat.  It was 5 am in the morning for an early flight... .and my dad really wasn't 100% (hard to explain but he already had some brain damage which caused damage to his memory and in turn made it more difficult to identify the Alzheimers)... .

My husband became verbally abusive towards me in the car in front of my dad.  And my dad said to him "You stop speaking to her like that right now.  No one will speak to my daughter like that.  She deserves to be treated with respect."  I vividly remember exactly where we were on the highway... .   I remember being so surprised by my dad.

My dad is a sober alcoholic.  In my childhood he was drinking.  He stopped drinking in 2007.  (The brain damage was a result of stopping cold turkey and the seizures etc.) That one little memory (also forgotten until right now)... .demonstrates to me that he was trying to 'make it right'.  He may not have stood up to my mom and he may have allowed her to be abusive, but years later (in his 70's) he was willing to stand up to my husband (who was way more intimidating).  My husband was violent and had a terrible temper and was physically intimidating... .but my dad still took him on.

Thank you for triggering that memory for me.  I forgot!  Tears pouring down my face.  Thank you.

My dad passed away unexpectedly on December 12.  He got sick a week earlier and I jumped on a plane to see him.  He waited to die until I could be there in person to say goodbye... .I arrived and got 4 fully lucid and conscious hours with him.  He couldn't talk... .but he could communicate. 

I told him that my ex husband was out of the house forever and that I was safe (he made a cheering motion).  I told him that he was a good father (he shrugged)... .I told him that I understood that he did the best he could with my mom (he shrugged again).  Am so grateful that I went through what I went through this summer because I was able to say goodbye to my dad without any regrets or guilt or emotional messiness (other than just the sadness of knowing that I will miss him). 

I told him that I loved him and he clung to my hand for about 4 hours.  I walked outside after saying goodbye to him and there was the most brilliant amazing sunset (my dad loved sunsets).

Without this forum.  Without you guys... .I never would have gotten here.  Thank you.  What a long strange trip its been.

[patientandclear]

Alli, this is so incredibly touching. I can't say enough how inspiring it is to watch you follow the truth wherever it takes you. And I am so glad you and your dad had that exchange.

You have unquestionably done the right thing for your son, and, I am also sure, for you. I am so glad you aren't being subjected to the sabotage and hurt that was daily fare when I first read your story on the boards.

I struggle sometimes to be clear that I made the right decisions in my own recent r/ship. I admire your clarity and this story helps me remember why these r/ships have such power (in my case being "seen" seemed like a healing balm after a long abusive marriage) and why it's so hard to give up hopes of that when we need to end it.

I'm so proud of you. Your dad clearly was, too.

Love,

P&C

[Pingo]

Allibaba, I have just re-read your thread this morning and it is just so inspiring still.  I am sorry for the loss of your Dad and I am so thankful you got to say goodbye to him. 

Anyway ... .I am still so moved at the strength you showed in doing what was needed to end what was going on, which was not in your H's interest, let alone yours or your son's.  You're wonderful. 

This bit made me cry.  Thank you!  I know now that my son has a good, stable mom and that he is lucky to have me   Talk about things I never thought that I would say about myself.  I also have the most loving and generous people popping up out of the woodwork around me.  Its strange how I decided that I was worth it and all of a sudden everyone else seems to think so too... .  or maybe they were always out there but I never opened up myself to being cared for because I didn't know how to do it.

So glad you have decided you are worth it!  This is where I'm struggling on some level.   I'm realising how many people have used me and discarded me.  I was asking myself 'why am I not worth more?'.  I suppose bc I don't think I am worth more therefore allow people to treat me accordingly. 

I hope the new year brings lots of love and light to you and your son!

[Trog]

Wow, what a wonderful inspiring story!  I had an amazing therapy session today as well and we discussed my father as well and his part in my issues today.  Apparently I have been in a LOT of denial!  I feel like an onion with layers upon layers peeling off me right now.  This agony of grief and the subsequent realisation that I have been abused... .not only in this r/s but others and in complete denial about it... .has been transformative!  My therapist told me today that I CAN heal this, that the tides have shifted.  I am encouraged and find your story so encouraging as well. May your healing journey take you to unexpected heights!

Good luck to both to you. I think the admittance and realisation that we've been abused in this relationship (and likely othersm friendships, relationships, family relationships) or had our good will betrayed, to physical abuse, it's just a really hard thing to own.

[allibaba]

So another chapter of my story is now beginning to unfold.

The relationship between my uBPD ex and I is pretty solid.  He flies off the handle at times but it is far easier to distinguish "my stuff" from "his stuff" these days.  We generally talk 2x a day for our 3 year old son (first thing in the morning and at night).  I still try to be there for my ex even though we won't ever get back together.  The minute he starts lashing out, I cut him off... .but happily pick things up when he calms down.

Over the past month, he has started to make noises about "changing old bad behavior patterns."  He has been working for the same company for more than a year now and its given him a stable platform.

On Sunday morning he calls and says [Allibaba] I just watched "Its a Football Life:  Brandon Marshall."  He has something called Borderline Personality Disorder.  That is what I have.  It explains everything.

I cautiously say something like "well that's interesting." Expecting this realization to be a flash in the pan that disappears quickly.  For the next 3 days, he brings this up every time we talk.  I validate but don't really want to get involved.  Yesterday sitting at work, I realize that he is asking me for help.

So I call him back and say "I know you keep telling me that you have BPD and that you need to address it.  Would you like me to help find you some resources?"

He says "please, yes.  I have lived like this for 50 yrs.  I don't want another 50 like this, self destructing everything good that I achieve.  I am sorry to ask you.  It I know its crazy but the most supportive person in my life - the one who has never abandoned me - is my ex wife."

He explained that every time he tries to research it, it is very triggering for him.  He says that he thinks he needs group therapy and that he feels like he is alone but after watching that special on TV, he knows he isn't.  (I have seen it... .it is a good show)

So I told my ex that I would help him where I could in an appropriate way (i.e. not trying to rescue him, just support his efforts).  I told him that he is on my insurance until the divorce waiting period is up and he has $2,000 to spend on therapy if he wants it.  I got him a couple of DBT books and a referral to someone who is good with BPD. 

I feel good about supporting him in this as long as it doesn't cross good boundaries. 

I am cautiously optimistic that maybe this is the start of a journey of very hard work for him.

I am a little nervous about him leaning on me too much, but think I will know in my gut if and when that happens.  He seems to be very conscious that he needs to do this work himself.

He apologized for destroying our marriage and I simply let him know that I made some decisions that made our situation worse.  I told him that "he is the father of our son and 'I got his back'." 

I guess I am not looking for advice... .just wanted to share what seems like a miracle to me.  Very cautious... .but... .

Wow.

[drummerboy]

Wow, what a great post to read! All the "help" in the world is useless until they get some insight, this is definitely a huge step for him. As long as you keep your boundaries and don't be his enabler this is vey encouraging. Miracles do happen.

[jhkbuzz]

Dysfunction is not manageable. Commonly we attempt to manage the wrong things. Happiness and love are manageable. Whatever you polish will shine.

Wow... .^^^  How much time have I wasted trying to manage the unmanageable?

Answer: years.

[jhkbuzz]

What an amazingly insightful thread!

I don't know what my mom was (diagnostically) - if anything - but she sure was something. Quick to rage, quick to hit, super controlling, often unyielding and unreasonable... .while my dad was the funny, easy-going, gentle guy (who let my mom rule the roost).

My grandmother (dad's mom) once told me that she didn't understand how my dad could stand by and let my mom hit us, since he was never hit as a child. I wonder too.  My theory has always been that my dad was more "in love" with my mom than she was with him... .so he just allowed her to act as she pleased.

I've spent a lot of time "processing" my r/s with my mom, and very little thinking about my dad - it's almost as though he is a "non-entity" in my memory, while she loomed larger than life. I have always thought that she had the largest impact on my life (a little like a meteor, ), while my dad was the one who I got my more "likable" traits from.

I'm rethinking that whole scenario.

I'm thinking about the fact that I've lived my adult life as a bisexual female. That, with a uber-passive dad (and with being molested by a family member from 6 to 11 years old) my experience of men is that they can't be trusted or relied upon. That they are either emotionally absent or incredibly selfish... .and in both scenarios they are unconcerned with what I might need in any way.  I'm thinking about the fact that when I started dating as a teen I was triggered like crazy and I didn't completely understand what was happening... .why these boys I liked both fascinated and repulsed me and left me feeling deeply ashamed.  I'm thinking about the fact that even when I was in satisfying r/s's with women I never lost my (physical) attraction to men... .and that I'm much more sexually attracted to men but more emotionally attracted to women.  I'm thinking about the fact that if I date men now I am STILL being triggered... .I immediately assume the worst - that they want to use me.  I'm thinking about the fact that the two women that I fell in love with had clear mental health issues... .I suspect both were BPD.

Holy ___, maybe it wasn't my ex at all, maybe it was me. Or equally me. Equally me but in different ways.  I didn't chronically lie, sleep around, act like a scared 5 year old (and then a promiscuous teenager) for years in the r/s... .but still. I clearly have my own ___ to deal with.

[Grey Kitty]

jhkbuzz, you've obviously found some really relevant stuff to yourself. I see two things in here, and want to point out that they are very different.

I'm thinking about the fact that I've lived my adult life as a bisexual female. That, with a uber-passive dad (and with being molested by a family member from 6 to 11 years old) my experience of men is that they can't be trusted or relied upon. That they are either emotionally absent or incredibly selfish... .and in both scenarios they are unconcerned with what I might need in any way.  I'm thinking about the fact that when I started dating as a teen I was triggered like crazy and I didn't completely understand what was happening... .why these boys I liked both fascinated and repulsed me and left me feeling deeply ashamed.  I'm thinking about the fact that even when I was in satisfying r/s's with women I never lost my (physical) attraction to men... .and that I'm much more sexually attracted to men but more emotionally attracted to women.  I'm thinking about the fact that if I date men now I am STILL being triggered... .I immediately assume the worst - that they want to use me.  I'm thinking about the fact that the two women that I fell in love with had clear mental health issues... .I suspect both were BPD.

All the highlighted things in this round sound to me like things stemming from significant unresolved issues you have... .and just had a  moment about. When you deal with some of those things, your life and relationships will probably improve dramatically.

These two things here sound very different to me:

I've lived my adult life as a bisexual female. ... .even when I was in satisfying r/s's with women I never lost my (physical) attraction to men... .and that I'm much more sexually attracted to men but more emotionally attracted to women.

Despite being straight and male, I do know a thing or two about bisexuality. And what you describe here sounds normal, healthy, and possibly even typical. Among bisexuals, being more sexually attracted to one gender than the other is very common. And being more emotionally attracted to one gender is also very common. Having those preferences be toward different genders is also common.

There is a very good chance that that aspect of yourself is just who you are, and not something that could should, or would change.

[jhkbuzz]

jhkbuzz, you've obviously found some really relevant stuff to yourself. I see two things in here, and want to point out that they are very different.

I'm thinking about the fact that I've lived my adult life as a bisexual female. That, with a uber-passive dad (and with being molested by a family member from 6 to 11 years old) my experience of men is that they can't be trusted or relied upon. That they are either emotionally absent or incredibly selfish... .and in both scenarios they are unconcerned with what I might need in any way.  I'm thinking about the fact that when I started dating as a teen I was triggered like crazy and I didn't completely understand what was happening... .why these boys I liked both fascinated and repulsed me and left me feeling deeply ashamed.  I'm thinking about the fact that even when I was in satisfying r/s's with women I never lost my (physical) attraction to men... .and that I'm much more sexually attracted to men but more emotionally attracted to women.  I'm thinking about the fact that if I date men now I am STILL being triggered... .I immediately assume the worst - that they want to use me.  I'm thinking about the fact that the two women that I fell in love with had clear mental health issues... .I suspect both were BPD.

All the highlighted things in this round sound to me like things stemming from significant unresolved issues you have... .and just had a   moment about. When you deal with some of those things, your life and relationships will probably improve dramatically.

These two things here sound very different to me:

I've lived my adult life as a bisexual female. ... .even when I was in satisfying r/s's with women I never lost my (physical) attraction to men... .and that I'm much more sexually attracted to men but more emotionally attracted to women.

Despite being straight and male, I do know a thing or two about bisexuality. And what you describe here sounds normal, healthy, and possibly even typical. Among bisexuals, being more sexually attracted to one gender than the other is very common. And being more emotionally attracted to one gender is also very common. Having those preferences be toward different genders is also common.

There is a very good chance that that aspect of yourself is just who you are, and not something that could should, or would change.

Thank you for your insights - you've given me some things to think about.

Sometimes I feel like my choice is between the lesser of the evils... .r/s's with men that trigger my distrust and anger, or r/s's with women which are much less triggering - but appear to be some sort of repetition compulsion. (I don't doubt for a minute that there's some kind of correlation between my r/s with my (unstable?) mother and my r/s's with two BPD women).

Y.I.K.E.S.  

As far back as I can remember, my mom was raging and my dad was... .inconsequential.  And the molestation is among some of my earliest memories. So this is the thing I wonder: would I even be bisexual if it wasn't for those circumstances?  I'm not sure I would be.  I can tell you that men trigger deep shame and anger in me... .and women don't. I was first approached by a woman when I was 24 and it was such a relief to not be triggered (in connection to expressing myself sexually) that I thought I found the answer - I was gay!  It was that simple!

But I don't think it is.  

I do have a T, by the way. Good thing, right?  

[Grey Kitty]

So this is the thing I wonder: would I even be bisexual if it wasn't for those circumstances?  I'm not sure I would be.

A good friend of mine has a saying that applies to this situation: "There is no cheese at the end of that maze."

One thing I've heard well confirmed is that childhood sexual abuse does NOT make people queer. However, kids who ARE queer (gay, trans... .something other than straight and cisgendered) ARE more vulnerable to the ugly controlling abusive techniques that child molesters employ. Thus it is common for molested children to be gay, but the root cause is being gay and the associated feeling of not belonging and not being acceted.

Sexual orientation seems to be hard-wired into people. In the rare cases where it changes, nobody's had success controlling or causing that kind of change that I know of.

So the question of whether this made you bisexual... .seems unlikely... .but if it did happen, that is who you are today. You could go in circles around this question, but I don't see how either answer would help you.

I highly recommend Dan Savage for you--He's a gay sex/relationship advice columnist. If you like spoken word audio, he has an excellent podcast. If you prefer reading, he writes a column. Similar stuff in both. He is an excellent source on questions around sexual identity and kink (if that applies to you), as well as giving generally very solid relationship type advice. (He has never mentioned BPD, and I've seen stuff that practically SCREAMS BPD a few times. While he doesn't address it as directly or as completely as these forums do, his relationship advice around those behaviors, especially abusive stuff is very sound.)

I have to credit him with most of what I know about bisexuality that I've written for you here.

I can tell you that men trigger deep shame and anger in me... .and women don't.

This part is different--Addressing the shame and anger is what you will need to start having healthy relationships... .with whichever gender you end up with. BTW... .I'm NOT recommending you get involved with men JUST to experience the shame and anger so you can deal with it.  

Here's another interesting question for you... .those relationships with men you've had... .have they ever lasted long enough past your being triggered for you to figure out if those guys were any healthier than the BPD-ish women you've been involved with?

Do you think they were at a similar level of dysfunction, but a different flavor?

[BorisAcusio]

So this is the thing I wonder: would I even be bisexual if it wasn't for those circumstances?  I'm not sure I would be.

A good friend of mine has a saying that applies to this situation: "There is no cheese at the end of that maze."

One thing I've heard well confirmed is that childhood sexual abuse does NOT make people queer. However, kids who ARE queer (gay, trans... .something other than straight and cisgendered) ARE more vulnerable to the ugly controlling abusive techniques that child molesters employ. Thus it is common for molested children to be gay, but the root cause is being gay and the associated feeling of not belonging and not being acceted.

There are conflicting theoris on what casues disturbances in sexual identity.

According to a study on Sexual Orientation and Relationship Choice in Borderline Personality Disorder:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3203737/

In this study, there was a trend toward a reported history of childhood sexual abuse predicting homosexual/bisexual orientation and/or same-sex relationships. This is consistent with clinical experience that some female borderline patients may identify themselves as homosexual or may choose female sexual partners because of histories of childhood abuse by men. In these cases, choice of sexual partner may have less to do with sexual attraction than with establishing an intimate relationship that provides a sense of safety.

While being heterosexual I can completely relate to that. My father was abusive in a eastern european way, most likely narcissistic and it had a lifelong impact on relating with other men. It never felt safe and the deep seated distrust resulted in early peer rejection, ultimately reinforcing that distorted beleif. After my teenage years, I never initiated to strenghten the bond towards friendship. It was and still is triggering.

[jhkbuzz]

So this is the thing I wonder: would I even be bisexual if it wasn't for those circumstances?  I'm not sure I would be.

A good friend of mine has a saying that applies to this situation: "There is no cheese at the end of that maze."

One thing I've heard well confirmed is that childhood sexual abuse does NOT make people queer. However, kids who ARE queer (gay, trans... .something other than straight and cisgendered) ARE more vulnerable to the ugly controlling abusive techniques that child molesters employ. Thus it is common for molested children to be gay, but the root cause is being gay and the associated feeling of not belonging and not being acceted.

Sexual orientation seems to be hard-wired into people. In the rare cases where it changes, nobody's had success controlling or causing that kind of change that I know of.

So the question of whether this made you bisexual... .seems unlikely... .but if it did happen, that is who you are today. You could go in circles around this question, but I don't see how either answer would help you.

Thank you - I think you're right in many ways.  It's a moot question at this point - I have had enough life experiences at this point to identify as bisexual. 

And I know that sexual abuse doesn't "make" someone gay/bisexual... .there are plenty of people who have been molested who have retained their sexual orientation. All I know is that, when I was younger, sex with men - even though I wanted it - was intensely triggering for me.  I wish I would have understood "triggers" at that time; I would have understood why I was feeling such deep shame. In many ways that shame was connected to the very fact that I wanted men sexually.  Somehow I was connecting my sexual longings as an adult with the abuse... .if I "want" men today then I must have "wanted" what happened to me when I was younger.  Very sad, but I think that's where my mind went.

So I guess I've sometimes wondered if I simply "defaulted" to women... .sexuality needs to be expressed... .I was approached (and that's how all my r/s's with women start - I never pursue)... .I wasn't triggered... .viola'!  But I guess I must have had that potential to begin with.

I highly recommend Dan Savage for you--He's a gay sex/relationship advice columnist. If you like spoken word audio, he has an excellent podcast. If you prefer reading, he writes a column. Similar stuff in both. He is an excellent source on questions around sexual identity and kink (if that applies to you), as well as giving generally very solid relationship type advice. (He has never mentioned BPD, and I've seen stuff that practically SCREAMS BPD a few times. While he doesn't address it as directly or as completely as these forums do, his relationship advice around those behaviors, especially abusive stuff is very sound.)

I have to credit him with most of what I know about bisexuality that I've written for you here.

I spent last night reading some of his columns and I found a lot of it interesting... .but I'm also strongly monogamous, so some of his advice was off-putting.

I can tell you that men trigger deep shame and anger in me... .and women don't.

This part is different--Addressing the shame and anger is what you will need to start having healthy relationships... .with whichever gender you end up with. BTW... .I'm NOT recommending you get involved with men JUST to experience the shame and anger so you can deal with it.  

Here's another interesting question for you... .those relationships with men you've had... .have they ever lasted long enough past your being triggered for you to figure out if those guys were any healthier than the BPD-ish women you've been involved with?

Do you think they were at a similar level of dysfunction, but a different flavor?

I am about to address all of this with my T... .she has years of therapy experience, and specializes in EMDR so we are going to (slowly) start those sessions.  I've been seeing her for about 6 months.

I am almost 7 months out of a long term r/s with a woman, and was single for a long time before that, so it's been a while since I've been in a r/s with a man.  What I can tell you is that I can have emotional r/s's with men, and I can have sexual r/s's with men, but I have a hard time combining the two.  For that reason, my r/s with men don't usually get past the 10 month mark... .while I love the sex at the beginning, I lose interest without the emotional connection. So I'm not 100% sure if the guys are healthier, but if I had to try to answer I'd say yes, they were.

[jhkbuzz]

There are conflicting theoris on what casues disturbances in sexual identity.

According to a study on Sexual Orientation and Relationship Choice in Borderline Personality Disorder:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3203737/

In this study, there was a trend toward a reported history of childhood sexual abuse predicting homosexual/bisexual orientation and/or same-sex relationships. This is consistent with clinical experience that some female borderline patients may identify themselves as homosexual or may choose female sexual partners because of histories of childhood abuse by men. In these cases, choice of sexual partner may have less to do with sexual attraction than with establishing an intimate relationship that provides a sense of safety.

While being heterosexual I can completely relate to that. My father was abusive in a eastern european way, most likely narcissistic and it had a lifelong impact on relating with other men. It never felt safe and the deep seated distrust resulted in early peer rejection, ultimately reinforcing that distorted beleif. After my teenage years, I never initiated to strenghten the bond towards friendship. It was and still is triggering.

I can relate to the bold... .but I'm not Borderline - I asked my T to tell me if I have any major personality disturbances! (She said no).

Boris... .it sounds like you have difficulty forming male friendships... .is it a feeling of lack of "safety"?

[Grey Kitty]

Boris,

Childhood history, especially when there is abuse has HUGE influence on the sort of intimate partners you choose in very many ways. (The original poster's story in this thread featured the issue of choosing emotionally unavailable men until she acknowledged and grieved the ways her father wasn't there for her as a girl) Many members here have chosen multiple romantic partners that have unhealthy characteristics shared with one of their parents.

It makes complete sense all of your relationships with men would be influenced like this, for example.

I suspect that jhkbuzz is typical here though--the sexual attraction (or lack of it) to various kinds of people is hard-wired into her... .and the choice of which (attractive to her) people to have a relationship with... .was strongly influenced by other things like her treatment by her parents.

I highly recommend Dan Savage... .

I spent last night reading some of his columns and I found a lot of it interesting... .but I'm also strongly monogamous, so some of his advice was off-putting.

Yes, some of his advice would be off-putting to a monogamous person... .I see him as respectful of people who are and want to be monogamous, while promoting other forms of healthy relationships. I suspect that after a couple decades of reading letters about partners who cheated he sees monogamy as creating more problems than it solves... .especially since culturally it is considered the only acceptable relationship model. He has also taken the err... .controversial... .position of advising some people to cheat in very special circumstances. (Not circumstances that I've ever seen on these boards, or ever expect to)

Take from him what works for you, and try to skip over things that are disturbing, triggering, or simply not applicable to you--I recommended him for you because he gives good life/relationship advice to bisexual people. I remember him citing a prominent bisexual who had written some sort of memoir, I think talking to him on the podcast... .I hope you find good things like that from Dan.

He also gives VERY sound and practical advice to people in abusive relationships. His advice includes excellent boundary enforcement like we suggest on these boards.