Can the same be said for each of us?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Very well said. Personally I had some good news today, found out my ex gf has split up with her bf. It proves all of her relationships have failed as he is bf number 3 after me. I shouldn't be glad but I am.

cant the same be said for each of us? that all of our relationships have failed?

I think this overlooks a meaningful, qualitative difference - I have a bunch of exes that I have meaningful friendships with, and several more that I am happily civil with. What I don't have is a string of people that say that processing their relationship with me and the related trauma is some of the most emotionally difficult work they've ever had to do.

Now, that suggests to me that while adding spite and shame (delighting in their failures) onto our exBPD partners' plates is probably not very constructive or healing (for them or for us), there are behavioral, chemical, anecdotal, and empirical reasons why I am a non, and my ex is not. That objective distinction seems useful to me in detaching and healing from the cycle, as well as accepting that my ex is entitled to live according to her nature or whim, and make her own decisions.

[OptimusRhyme]

Very well said. Personally I had some good news today, found out my ex gf has split up with her bf. It proves all of her relationships have failed as he is bf number 3 after me. I shouldn't be glad but I am.

cant the same be said for each of us? that all of our relationships have failed?

I think this overlooks a meaningful, qualitative difference - I have a bunch of exes that I have meaningful friendships with, and several more that I am happily civil with. What I don't have is a string of people that say that processing their relationship with me and the related trauma is some of the most emotionally difficult work they've ever had to do.

Now, that suggests to me that while adding spite and shame (delighting in their failures) onto our exBPD partners' plates is probably not very constructive or healing (for them or for us), there are behavioral, chemical, anecdotal, and empirical reasons why I am a non, and my ex is not. That objective distinction seems useful to me in detaching and healing from the cycle, as well as accepting that my ex is entitled to live according to her nature or whim, and make her own decisions.

[once removed]

Now, that suggests to me that while adding spite and shame (delighting in their failures) onto our exBPD partners' plates is probably not very constructive or healing (for them or for us)

i think this is the point

its human nature, when we are wounded, to take some respite in seeing those who hurt us fail. basing our recovery on the outcome of our ex is a very shaky foundation, however.

we all have a history of failed relationships; some of us have a rockier history than others. if our exes go onto a successful relationship, does this mean we are failures? if our exes go onto a failed relationship, does this mean that we had no hand in the failure of our relationship?

more importantly, i think the question is whether we will go onto healthier relationships. too many (myself included) repeat the same patterns. cant blame that on my ex.

[jambley]

What I don't have is a string of people that say that processing their relationship with me and the related trauma is some of the most emotionally difficult work they've ever had to do.

That's the difference right there.

[once removed]

That's the difference right there.

is it, though? doesnt it still place the blame on the failure, and our difficulty detaching, on our ex?

not everyone would have been part of that string of people. emotionally healthy and grounded people dont get into and remain in deep relationship turmoil and dysfunction.

i know i didnt struggle because "my ex had BPD". i struggled during and after the relationship because i was part of a complex and loaded bond, my own attachment issues, among a multitude of other reasons that were primarily about me.

if id been an emotionally healthy and grounded person, i would not have been part of that string, or struggled like i did. i cant say whats in my exes future. i finally realized that i have a lot of control over mine.

[jambley]

Let's take blame out of the equation even if we were blamed for everything. These are mentally unstable people with a previous relationship history of abuse and bizarre behaviour.

You can detach by knowing you are not like them or have relationships fail in a colossal way because of your behaviour.

[once removed]

These are mentally unstable people with a previous relationship history of abuse and bizarre behaviour.

we were part of their previous relationship history  .

You can detach by knowing you are not like them or have relationships fail in a colossal way because of your behaviour.

Bowen's family theory states we tend to mate with our emotional equals - not mirror images, but equals.

members that ive seen go onto heal dig deep, and they uncover some stuff that isnt pretty. stuff that attracted them to this kind of relationship turmoil and kept them in it. stuff that doesnt differentiate them much from their exes, along with the realization they contributed to the dysfunction of the relationship as much as their ex.

as i said, some of us have rockier relationship history than others. perhaps your relationship history isnt particularly rocky before this. that still begs a few questions: why did your relationships fail, if not for your behavior, and what changed? how did you go from healthy (but failed) relationships to relationship turmoil and dysfunction?

i think those answers are key to detaching.

[Meili]

You can detach by knowing you are not like them or have relationships fail in a colossal way because of your behaviour.

I'm highly confused by this statement. Was it not our own behaviors that got us into and kept us in these relationships? If it wasn't our behaviors and choices, then whose behaviors and choices were they?

For me, I can conclusively state that no one forced me into a relationship with my x nor did anyone else cause me to stay in that toxic environment. Those where choices I made.

Who made those choices for you?

[Harley Quinn]

I think this overlooks a meaningful, qualitative difference - I have a bunch of exes that I have meaningful friendships with, and several more that I am happily civil with. What I don't have is a string of people that say that processing their relationship with me and the related trauma is some of the most emotionally difficult work they've ever had to do.

This is interesting to me.  I too have had friendships with exes, however I do wonder what my and their motivation was for that.  Over time I've drifted away from these.  I'm not comparing my situation to anyone else's at all and I know that it can be perfectly possible for lasting friendship to form following a r/s but then that begs the question why be in a romantic r/s with that person in the first place if it was clearly not the type of r/s that the two of you were really meant for?  What I'm saying here is there are alternative ways to view any situation and we could scratch beneath the surface of any of our past relationships to find that something was in fact a bit questionable around our own motivations somewhere along the line. 

In the case of my exBPDbf, I will be eternally grateful that I did go through the pain, turmoil, destruction, emotional and physical abuse (yes - I'm sure Skip thinks I'm certifiable because I say this  ) and trauma BECAUSE that emotionally difficult work I now have to do to process everything I list here - I NEEDED to do.  Not just from this r/s but from a lot earlier in my life.  I'd just been putting it off until now.  Hiding from it and telling myself I was doing fine.  I'd had a cycle that wasn't blinding to others because the chaos and destruction wasn't as apparent as in this latest r/s but it was a cycle all the same and my own thought processes and behaviours that drove that cycle needed to be examined, unpacked, unravelled and tackled head on if I'm ever to be completely free of them.  I have learned much about myself and am ready to do the long and difficult work ahead of me to dig deeper and bring forth all my demons then shoot them down one by one.  I want to be fully emotionally healthy and experience life from that perspective.  Bring it on. 

Just my perspective.

Love and light x

[Turkish]

accepting that my ex is entitled to live according to her nature or whim, and make her own decisions.

My T, no fan of my ex (he saw her privately twice before she quit couples' counseling),  effectively communicated this very point to me,  that she was an independent entity,  free to make her own choices,  no matter how "unwise." He also said something similar when then S4 was upset about mommy choosing to have an adult r/s with the guy whom she married.

I grudgingly accepted this truth. It's good that you realized this.  I think what many of its struggle with in detaching is separating ourselves back into independent entities, and this can be hard given often pathologically driven enmeshment while in the relationships (though we also have to take ownership of our own roles here).

Given what you've realized,  how do you think you move forward?

[OptimusRhyme]

This is interesting to me.  I too have had friendships with exes, however I do wonder what my and their motivation was for that.  Over time I've drifted away from these.  I'm not comparing my situation to anyone else's at all and I know that it can be perfectly possible for lasting friendship to form following a r/s but then that begs the question why be in a romantic r/s with that person in the first place if it was clearly not the type of r/s that the two of you were really meant for?  What I'm saying here is there are alternative ways to view any situation and we could scratch beneath the surface of any of our past relationships to find that something was in fact a bit questionable around our own motivations somewhere along the line. 

I don't believe that you can tell what a person's role in your life will be immediately (or even quickly). I've had relationships where both my ex and I realized we were better friends than romantic partners, but only the attempt at a romantic relationship convinced us that we weren't compatible on that level of intimacy and interdependence. Obviously, there needed to be time to cool off, process, readjust our brain chemistry and expectations and experiences of the relationship  but when you say you wonder what your motivations were for maintaining friendships - I believe that some of my exes are just cool people and I'm thankful we can agree on a mutually healthy context to stay in one another lives. I have other exes where, post romantic attempt, we realized there wasn't even a friendship there, but there was no deep seated feeling of injustice in the relationship. Not so the case with my exBPD,  and herein lies where I lose some of the train of logic in the healing process on these boards. Villainizing people with BPD, letting our anger manifest as attributing gross malice and deliberate destruction to them, doesn't seem productive, or truthful. I want to draw an important distinction here. To me, our dissatisfaction of the demise of the relationship, is something we play a key role in. Our pain, and our perception of it, is something we have agency and control over (and in the making of), so focusing on our role in that process is hugely fruitful (and has been for me). But that's different from our role in the demise itself of the relationship. And here's where some of the "I'm equally at fault" and "they're people just like us" talk strikes me as too narrow a perspective.

It is possible that the relationship failed because they have BPD. Have sympathy for them, have pity for them, have compassion or whatever you'd like for them; they, to my exposure and to all the reading I've done, are incapable of rewarding, mature relationships. I try and read various parts of these forums, and look for success stories, but there's a fundamental difference between coming up with solutions to mitigate someone's illness and permit marginally functional relations, and a thriving, inspiring relationship. I don't think I've ever heard "my recovered BPD partner is patient, kind, and their wisdom and example have opened my eyes to who I'd like to be as a partner". And trying to whitewash their emotional limitations seems dangerous to me, because it leads people to believe they can try and play the game and do anything but lose. Again, if emotionally healthy people don't get involved - then something in the person with BPD  IS indeed broken. Again, not a reason for anger, ridicule, or shame on our parts, but certainly a reason to stay away, period, full stop.

In the case of my exBPDbf, I will be eternally grateful that I did go through the pain, turmoil, destruction, emotional and physical abuse (yes - I'm sure Skip thinks I'm certifiable because I say this  ) and trauma BECAUSE that emotionally difficult work I now have to do to process everything I list here - I NEEDED to do.  Not just from this r/s but from a lot earlier in my life.  I'd just been putting it off until now.  Hiding from it and telling myself I was doing fine.  I'd had a cycle that wasn't blinding to others because the chaos and destruction wasn't as apparent as in this latest r/s but it was a cycle all the same and my own thought processes and behaviours that drove that cycle needed to be examined, unpacked, unravelled and tackled head on if I'm ever to be completely free of them.  I have learned much about myself and am ready to do the long and difficult work ahead of me to dig deeper and bring forth all my demons then shoot them down one by one.  I want to be fully emotionally healthy and experience life from that perspective.  Bring it on. 

Just my perspective.

Love and light x

Again, our perspectives here might be different, but I don't think you (anyone, not you Harley) will ever be completely free of all your dissatisfying behavioral cycles - we are always failing and learning. While my experience with the exBPD has led me to some of the biggest insights about my own assumptions and behavior, and I'm in the best place I've felt,  probably ever, because of the hard work I've embarked on from it, I couldn't, without reservation, say it was "worth it", that I wouldn't do it all differently if I had the choice. Similarly, I'm sure that right now, despite my best efforts (and considerable recent successes) in becoming more conscious of myself and my thoughts and actions, I'm blind to lots of other (or new) dynamics that hold me back from being my best self. I don't know that I believe one needs to endure great, weighty trauma to achieve great, weighty insight.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Optimus,

Again, our perspectives here might be different, but I don't think you (anyone, not you Harley) will ever be completely free of all your dissatisfying behavioral cycles - we are always failing and learning. While my experience with the exBPD has led me to some of the biggest insights about my own assumptions and behavior, and I'm in the best place I've felt,  probably ever, because of the hard work I've embarked on from it, I couldn't, without reservation, say it was "worth it", that I wouldn't do it all differently if I had the choice. Similarly, I'm sure that right now, despite my best efforts (and considerable recent successes) in becoming more conscious of myself and my thoughts and actions, I'm blind to lots of other (or new) dynamics that hold me back from being my best self. I don't know that I believe one needs to endure great, weighty trauma to achieve great, weighty insight.

Great reply, to which I wholeheartedly agree with many of your points.  Life is not the destination, but the journey.  We can always be better, learn more and experience more in new ways, with new insights and better results from doing things differently.  Isn't that striving to be better the point? 

It saddens me when I know of people who are more mildly dysfunctional in relationships (my son's father for example who is more high functioning and far less self aware than my exBPDbf, however destructive in his own enduring way) and have the capacity to acknowledge this and work with it yet choose not to.  In contrast, my exBPDbf does recognise his unacceptable behaviour enough to want to change and often said if he could cut that part out of himself he would in a heartbeat.  As you said, he isn't capable of achieving a rewarding, mature relationship and that sadly is a fact that will continue to affect his life and others' until (if he reaches) the day where he addresses this properly and sticks out the treatment so that he can learn to behave differently and implement these strategies consistently.  Unfortunately the disorder gets the better of him just as he begins to make progress, so a bit of a catch 22.  I do wonder though if the difference between them in their level of self awareness is the fact that my son's father simply hasn't had enough impact on himself from his behaviours to generate the desire to address them, whereas my BPD ex most certainly has seen what his behaviours do to his life and those around him, and feels the weight of that shame.   

Thanks for opening up such a good discussion.

Love and light x       

[once removed]

Again, if emotionally healthy people don't get involved - then something in the person with BPD  IS indeed broken.

i dont mean to suggest an emotionally healthy individual would not get involved with someone with BPD traits. not only do i think thats an absurd blanket statement, but it would totally stand against the unbelievable work ive seen so many do on the Improving board. emotionally healthy and grounded people dont get knee deep in, and remain in, relationship dysfunction and turmoil (that is where it takes two). great difficulty happens in any relationship, of course. an emotionally healthy person assesses and makes adjustments based on good mental health (i dont believe emotionally healthy and grounded people "run" - they assess their own contribution, their partners (they are able to separate the two), and be constructive (including but not limited to exiting a relationship). i mean emotionally healthy people dont get knee deep in, and remain in abusive, boundary busting relationships, circular arguments, drama, etc.

as for equivalency ("im equally at fault", i look at it this way:

i start with bowens family systems theory, that we mate with our emotional equals. again, not a person that is our mirror image (i do not and did not struggle with say, rage, or regulating my emotions in the way that my ex did, for example), but a person that is where we are in terms of our level of differentiation.

our partners are all on a spectrum (most of them are not high enough on the spectrum for a clinical diagnosis). for the clinically diagnosed, the percentage of partners of a person with BPD that meet the criteria for a personality disorder themselves is 50%. thats a sobering statistic.

so, most of our ex partners arent that high on the spectrum, and most of us arent either. most of our ex partners have traits. many of us have personality disordered traits. not just personality disordered traits, but things like insecure or avoidant attachment styles, abandonment and/or rejection sensitivity, substance abuse issues, chaotic or invalidating households, poor boundaries, i could go on, but suffice to say that collectively, we struggle with adversity in a whole multitude of different ways. point being, that generally, most of our partners are not hopeless or broken and neither are we. thats why i think it behooves us not to hang our hats on the idea that "we can improve and our exes cant". many of us dont.

thats the general stuff, and it comes from witnessing and working with thousands of members on all of the different boards. ill speak for me personally.

i went from dysfunctional relationship to dysfunctional relationship and i struggled greatly every time, especially with the ending. my approach to coping was pretty poor. ive described it (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=308498.30) as making a martyr of myself, another face of victim, which speaks to my level of differentiation. i thought in order to get over an ex i had to paint them black, reverse my sense of rejection, and/or get in a new relationship.

i could sit here and review all the fights we had, and score them, but the two of us definitely brought out the worst in each other. i never hit my ex (an alarming number of us did), but i used physical intimidation (punching a hole in the wall for example) a few times. circular arguments were a constant, and it unequivocally takes two people to maintain a circular argument. i had a foot out the door for a great deal of my relationship, and tended to respond to any of her concerns or attacks with total dismisiveness, and avoidance. all of that and more is on me. to suggest i was "pushed to it" completely misses the point. i was knee deep in relationship dysfunction and turmoil, and i stayed, and tried to manipulate it to the point that i could simply enjoy the good parts.

i would not say i was "addicted to" the idealization. i have an ego, but my ex was over the top in her expressions and i knew it. digging a little deeper though, my ex gave me all id wanted - someone who mirrored back the reasons i believed i should be understood and loved. she was utterly dependent on me, which for the first time, made me feel one up and powerful. anything else (devaluation) and i dismissed and withdrew and was punitive. i dont know about you, but on paper, this reads fairly narcissistic to me - not to say im "a narcissist", but read up on the dynamic between narcissists and borderlines, and how the narcissist responds to the loss of the idealization.

the skills, tools, and lessons on the Improving board were really eye opening to me, especially the communication tools (they are not "BPD speak". theyre proven communication methods that work with anyone, and i call them skills for life). the idea that i could have done better in my relationship was pretty glaring. i could have been far less invalidating and dismissive. i could have been more mature about communicating my needs. i could have been more firm in my boundaries. i could have stuck to the time outs i did take, most of which just looked like manipulation or punishment. i could have not upped the ante time and time again. would this have been enough to save my relationship? i dont think we were compatible at the end of the day, or that both parties could have or would have found the relationship satisfying enough to remain in; thats me. i also think our relationship had deteriorated to the point that i would not have had the strength or resilience to affect lasting change on my end. it happens.

the demise of the relationship? i had the standard "she was cheating, she lined up someone before we broke up, i felt like we were on a perceived upswing in our relationship, she withdrew and was distant, and then she painted me black and jumped into that new relationship". sound familiar? what if i told you that in the last year of our relationship, i hardly saw her. there were at least two periods of at least six weeks that i stayed away. i lose track of the timeline, but i know i stayed away for about the last two months while shed make overtures to see me. additionally, our fighting was at its worst, and i was emotionally done for a while. i spoke (was a basket case to) my parents in the aftermath. at some point they very gently pointed this out to me and the idea that we broke up for any valid reason other than "BPD" was incredibly triggering to me. in retrospect, i wasnt blindsided at all.

they, to my exposure and to all the reading I've done, are incapable of rewarding, mature relationships.

all of this was my long winded way of saying "neither was i. i was where i was, and its why i ended up in the relationship that i did, and struggled the way i did."

[Meili]

I don't think I've ever heard "my recovered BPD partner is patient, kind, and their wisdom and example have opened my eyes to who I'd like to be as a partner".

Well then, let me be the first to say this to you:

My dBPDexw is one of the strongest, wisest, kindest, and courageous people that I've ever had the pleasure to encounter.

I never heard of BPD while we were married; that didn't come up until much later. But, I always knew that she was struggling with what she called "zebras" in her mind. She faced fears daily that most people cannot even begin to imagine. I have CPTSD and share close to the same level of fear of abandonment as pwBPD from what I understand. I can tell you right now that it is not a fun experience when faced with rejection and abandonment - when you think that your life is over because you are that worthless and unlovable. But, there she is, 45 years old, still out there trying and facing her zebras on a daily basis the best way that she knows how. That, Optimus, is inspiring courage to me.

I could into striking detail about all of the traits that I listed, but that would probably do little to change your mind on this subject, you appear pretty entrenched in your thought process. I suspect that I can see things differently because I have a different perspective on all of it.

I know that have my own flaws and that any woman that I partner with must, as you said, find ways to mitigate those flaws in order to have a healthy relationship with me. That's kinda what relationships are all about; we all have to find compromise.

I also know that a woman who is not on the same emotional maturity level as I am, either higher or lower, will struggle to have a relationship with me. It's that way for everyone after all. She will also have to learn to deal with my little quirks and idiosyncrasies; again, this applies to every relationship. No relationship escapes these things.

It is for thees reasons that we caution against demonizing the pwBPD in our worlds. They are also why we warn against the "us" vs. "them" thinking. We are just as guilty of being ourselves as the pwBPD is. We all have our flaws. We all make mistakes. We all could have done things differently if we had different tools at the time. pwBPD and their non counterparts alike would do things differently if they could. If they wouldn't, then there would something else drastically wrong for they would purposefully hurt another with conscious indifference.

[once removed]

Well then, let me be the first to say this to you:

also, please allow me to share my favorite success story, and one of the most inspiring ive ever heard. the subject of the story is younger than i am, and has skills today that i sure hope to have one day:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=120563.0

[vanx]

I don't want to commandeer the thread here, but I find it an interesting discussion that resonates with many of the things that still go through my head every day. I have no doubt in my case that I have emotional health and attachment issues. I have been in therapy for these issues for 13 years and going. I just can't seem to figure out why this breakup hurts so much and is taking so long to get over.
Like Meili, I found my ex to be one of the finest people I ever met. She happened to blame me for a lot of things and put me down, but I realize she had a hard time controlling that. I don't want to blame her, but I want to understand if I was abused or not, and if that is part of what hurts so much. I feel like I was abused emotionally, even if it wasn't intentional and I don't understand if I really do like her so much, or if I am idealizing her too, as my T's have said.

To me, it doesn't so much feel like if I were healthy I would have run from her, but that I could have been a rock for her to anchor to, and a friend I still want to be. The relationship hasn't taught me much new about myself, but has been symbolic of connection I cannot seem to obtain. I want her to be the bad guy sometimes because it would fizzle all the hurtful things she said about me, but they were only fears about myself I already believed!

Anyhow, thanks for the contributions here.

[Meili]

She happened to blame me for a lot of things and put me down, but I realize she had a hard time controlling that. I don't want to blame her, but I want to understand if I was abused or not, and if that is part of what hurts so much. I feel like I was abused emotionally, even if it wasn't intentional and I don't understand if I really do like her so much, or if I am idealizing her too, as my T's have said.

To me, it doesn't so much feel like if I were healthy I would have run from her, but that I could have been a rock for her to anchor to, and a friend I still want to be. The relationship hasn't taught me much new about myself, but has been symbolic of connection I cannot seem to obtain. I want her to be the bad guy sometimes because it would fizzle all the hurtful things she said about me, but they were only fears about myself I already believed!

I went through these same things vanx, and still do to an extent.

My x blamed me for everything, I'm certain that many of us here can testify to the same; but, like you, I realized that she had difficulty differentiating between her own thoughts and what was actually happening. This caused me grief for a long time. At some point, I stopped trying to figure it out and understanding all of it and just decided that it was what it was. More important to me became the idea of why it was so important to me to have her in my life and to overlook all of the  . That wasn't about her, that was about me. It was about how I thought about life and myself. I struggled for a long time, and still do, with reconciling the wonderful things that my x offered with the pain that came with them. I argued with myself about whether or not it was all worth it. At some point, I decided that she, rather than it, was.

With that realization came the questions of what I was worth in all of this? To me, that question is key in understanding all of the parts. Whether we are trying detach, improve, or save our relationships with our pwBPD; understanding our importance is what changes everything.

Did I idealize my x? Yep! You bet that I did. Did I demonize her? Sure, at some point those thoughts went through my mind. But, when I allowed both the emotions and the logic to coexist, I could see that reality was somewhere in the middle. In some ways my x was the perfect woman to me (mirroring aside mind you); in others, well, I'll just say that the relationship was painful (I'll venture a guess that needs no explanation to anyone here). Both are very real to me. It wasn't until I looked within and understood how I fit into that mix that I truly started to understand.

Like you, at some point, I wanted to blame her for everything and make her the "bad guy" in all of this. But, I couldn't. I owned part of the relationship and that I couldn't escape. I had to acknowledge that I played a role in all of it. I was not truly a victim. I loved the good that she gave me and clung onto it longer than I should have because how it made me feel about myself. When she stopped providing me with those feelings, I was devastated. It wasn't until I understood that I was the one that was providing myself with those thoughts that things changed.

The short version is that I took what she gave me and molded it into a reality that made me feel good about myself. The  didn't matter because I felt good about who I was as a person. That was all internal though. It came from feeling secure in what she was showing me. When I started to see those thing from within myself I realized that she wasn't showing those things, but, rather, that I was allowing myself to see and believe them. Is this the case for others? That I don't know, but I suspect that if we each could look inside and see within that which our pwBPD showed us our reactions to the situation would be different. I know that this was the case for me.

I truly wonder how life would be if we were all able to stop and mirror within ourselves the very things that our pwBPD mirrored for us, how our lives would be?

[Larmoyant]

. cant the same be said for each of us? that all of our relationships have failed?

.

Something about this whole thread has triggered me and I feel hurt. Maybe my anger is belatedly coming out. I’d like to address the above quote. Yes, all my previous relationships did fail, but not one of them left me feeling like I’m fighting for survival and as Optimus writes "What I don't have is a string of people that say that processing their relationship with me and the related trauma is some of the most emotionally difficult work they've ever had to do."

I do place much of the blame for the failure of the relationship on the appalling behaviours of my personality disordered ex and I struggled, a lot, because of his abuse. Was I part of a complex, loaded bond with my own attachment issues? Absolutely, we shared abandonment issues so I experienced his push/pull, and lack of ability to consistently commit as torturous. On again/off again, come here/go away, idealisation/devaluation, his rage, his unpredictable mood switches, cheating, lying. My old childhood wounds were consistently being triggered and the intermittent reinforcement and the need to have the pain go away meant I stuck around. I failed to protect myself and that is on me.

My ‘abandonment’ issue however did not lead me to go on five dating sites and hook up with other men behind his back, it did not lead me to rage, denigrate and devalue him to the point where his self-esteem was almost non-existent. It didn’t lead me to do something that ruined his career. There was a meaningful, qualitative difference between us and that difference is pathological abuse and the relationship failed because of it. 

It seemed the more I lost, the more I stayed. What else was I going to do? What else could I do? Look at the mess I’d become. In his words “who could love a warped person like you”. He was eroding my self-esteem to the point that at times I felt helpless. Was I equally to blame for that? Did my lack of knowledge about personality disorders, lack of effective communication skills, poor self-esteem, childhood issues, poor reactions make me equally culpable? Did I contribute to the dysfunction of the relationship as much as him? No, I did not. My relationship failed because of my ex’s personality disorder and the abuse that came with it.

I do not blame him for my long and painful struggle to detach. That’s on me. I found it very difficult to let go. I left a door open resulting in an 18 month painful break-up. I could have made a clean break, but I didn’t. It’s ok, I did it in my own time and have no regrets. I’m over the worst now at least emotionally. I no longer have suicidal ideation, but I’m still struggling with the practical consequences of the relationship and a ruined career. It’s a deeply painful outcome and I’m having trouble coping with it. I hold him partially responsible for it.

Do I have empathy and compassion for him? Yes, and I always will. BPD is a terrible, heartbreaking disorder for the afflicted person and all those who get involved. He still contacts me from time to time and sometimes it pulls at my heart strings with sorrow for him and me and what could have been. I’m not in any danger of going back so don’t mind the contact. I do miss him sometimes, the nice him, but the blinkers are off and really the nice side of him never lasted very long. Powerful enough to keep me there once, but not anymore. He is an abusive person, who cannot control his emotional outbursts, who cannot own his poor behaviour, who could never meet me half way, who couldn't control his mood switches and I couldn't control them either. This is what led to the failure of our relationship. I may not have handled any of it very well, and I may have issues, but I did nothing to deserve the abuse.


 

[vanx]

Thank you for your reply, Meili. I know this is not my thread--just wanted to say this thread has really struck a chord with me. I think your feedback will help me get back on a path of self growth, which I need. Thanks, all. Really getting some juices flowing.

[vanx]

I would also like to validate the points of several posters and some frustration perhaps. I guess success and failure are relative. I would say I have had one or two successful relationships in my life. They ended, but they were successful to me because of the level of deep mutual love and respect, intimacy, support, and communication.
From what I know about my ex's history, she had at least one successful relationship too.
I tend to blame myself, which doesn't help, and neither does blaming her. However, I will say that in my case I was the partner anxiously craving intimacy, and she was the one avoiding it. Neither are great, but personally I am glad I do not fear intimacy, because that seems much more challenging to mitigate. I am grateful to have successfully experienced intimacy before, where you go out on a limb and the other person is there for you.
This was neither the greatest failure and certainly not a success, but somewhere in between for me.

[OptimusRhyme]

Ok, so there's a lot of good responses here, and I'm gonna try and organize my thoughts as best as possible. I also want to start off this post by saying, to address Meili's point that I'm entrenched in my thinking - I made the comment I did (which once removed spun off into its own topic) precisely because I'm trying to discern whether I'm merely impatient for time to finish the job that healing has started, or whether I'm stuck somewhere in my recovery, and I'm interested in the boards thoughts. I might debate passionately and with a decisive tone, but the spirit of my bringing up this discussion is one of conversation, not dictation or cheerleading myself.

So, my BPD experience might be slightly atypical for these boards, in that I got off the hook comparatively lightly. I haven't told my story here, and to be honest, it's too much to type out without missing huge chunks of meaningful detail (and I'm a sucker for context), but suffice to say, I knew nothing of BPD before this person, but threw up boundaries and walls very early on in her idealization and courting of me. With hindsight, I can see how my trying to extend tolerance or understanding in several instances was actually me compromising my boundaries and setting precedent, but I attempted to end things amicably several times, and continued to participate in recycling (we worked together). The failure to end things firmly and clearly lies entirely with me, but I mention this dynamic because I began our relationship detached, skeptical, slowing things down, etc etc, but without resentment or condescension (again, consciously, maybe I'm wrong). It took 9 or 10 months of her continuing to put in work to break down my walls, and I had come into a period in my life where a lot of other major arenas were zapping my energy and ability to gauge my self care and emotional health. And then when I well and truly fell for her, the discard process was pretty quick. I fought for the relationship for 3 weeks or so, and then, in part because she had told me she had been diagnosed by 2 different therapists as BPD, (and I subsequently began reading and learning as much as I could on it) I went NC. I sent her a last email that I'm still quite satisfied with - stood up for my feelings, wished her well, stated that I couldn't accept the way I felt she treated me, but respected that she was entitled to her own story, etc etc. There was no raging, no demeaning, etc etc. I've kept strict NC (I'm not sure if she's tried to reach out, I have her blocked/automatically sent to trash on all avenues), not out of malice, but simply because there's no positive interaction for us to have, and I have no need to recall, re-witness, or re-process the trauma or tragedy of what happened with her. Our healing processes have nothing to offer one another. In the year since, I've had easily the best year of my life. I've learned a lot about myself and how I come to be in situations I'm dissatisfied with, I've been lucky enough to hear a lot of wisdom on self care, self love, and self compassion (lots of it from this board), and even luckier that it's stuck with me. I'm surrounded by wonderful friends and family, I cherish my time alone, I'm invested in more of what I want to do with my life than I can ever remember being.

I say all this not to pat myself on the back at all, but to highlight that, even in what I'd think is one of the better case scenarios (I'm extremely lucky and grateful that I had the opportunity to recover from my BPD experience this way, and even more lucky and grateful that I have been able to take advantage of that opportunity), this has still been the most confusing, painful emotional experience of my life. I've had long-term dreams dashed, businesses fail, important family and friends die, but this has thrown me for a loop I'm still unraveling a year later.

So, with the breadth of experience in mind,

all of this was my long winded way of saying "neither was i. i was where i was, and its why i ended up in the relationship that i did, and struggled the way i did."

There is absolutely wisdom in looking at our role, and our level of emotional health or maturity, when we enter these relationships. And I know you've quoted that 50% of BPDs' ex partners also fall under the clinical definition for personality disorders. However, that also means 50% don't. I mention (and again, just using me as an example, not to say I've figured out a damn thing) my exes that are friends or civil acquaintances to illustrate that I believe myself capable of healthy relationships, both friendly and intimate, before I met my exBPD. And while my relationship with my exBPD has taught me spades of lessons that I can now extend to all of my existing and future relationships, I was already accustomed to pretty harmonious, uncomplicated relationships - not high-conflict. Similarly, while people-pleasing (and pain/rejection avoidance) have been themes of many of the difficult periods I've had in various relationships, I have demonstrably learned, and changed my habits accordingly. Meaningful work takes time (and is by degrees, not binary). On the other hand, my ex has repeated very dramatic and damaging decisions over all of the partnerships of hers I know of (and she's very high functioning if I'm gauging), almost without so much as a change of lipstick color.

Lastly, I need to read the story you posted, and I'll respond to that ASAP.

To meili - first and foremost, thanks for sharing your perspective. I'm about to say a lot of stuff that might come off as super invalidating, or possibly pedantic, but I mean absolutely no disrespect, and I'm genuinely trying to hear your perspective and message.

To your first post -I don't mean to demonize pwBPD at all. Like I hope I've expressed clearly, it seems clear to me that projecting anger and ill will towards them not only does nothing to heal our own wounds, it prolongs our emotional attachment, keeps us in a victim mentality, and does nothing to inspire growth, understanding, or healing anywhere in the world. Where I personally am struggling is your second point - thinking in terms of a "them and us" mentality. Obviously, them vs us thinking is the seed or gateway for slippery slope demonization, but I can't shake this feeling that there is well and truly a fundamental, objective difference that is frutiful to observe here.

The analogy I've used with myself often when talking about my experience is raising a feral fox as a pet (I can't remember where I got the trope from). Similarly to the scorpion and the frog, I can't be mad at the feral fox for biting me every time I try to feed it and do it a kindness - that's its nature, and the burden is on me for having unrealistic expectations of the situation.

Similarly, I can't be mad at my ex - she followed her programming or nature. (Let's throw out the wrinkle that, to complete the analogy, the fox would have learned all of the language and behavior of a domesticated dog or cat, and demonstrated this repeatedly while it told you it was a wonderfully domesticated pet. Anyways). I'm certainly not going to change that behavior by shaming her, and in fact, have no control to change her behavior at all, just as with the feral fox. If I want to avoid or improve this situation in the future and not get bitten, I would do well to examine why I thought I could domesticate it, or why I thought it wouldn't bite ME specifically ("but it said I was the best possible owner it ever had", etc ), or why I want to impose my concept of kindness on the fox, etc etc etc. But I would conclude "no more trying to domesticate feral foxes", no? Maybe I'd go through a period of completely avoiding all foxes (ie, the trust issues we have after our BPD experiences, or having to maintain strict NC), but, even when I had achieved complete detachment and indifference towards the fox, I would say "don't try and feed the feral foxes, you'll get bitten".

That, precisely, is the dynamic I'm struggling with. I don't hate my ex. I am on my way to being indifferent. But no matter how indifferent I become, if someone were to ask, "hey, should I try to be in a relationship with someone with BPD?" I can't see my way around saying "Nope. They're going to do X. They're emotionally limited, and the very thing you want them for (an intimate relationship) is the very thing I've havent seen them being able to do."

Meili, your example of your exw speaks towards what I was trying to say with the line you quoted. Again, I don't mean to sound dismissive at all (or just plain awful), and I'm struggling to express this thoughtfully and articulately, so bear with me. The reason I bring up me not being able to shake this (possibly pedantic) sense of "well, no, we can't say the exact same for us", is because I read a lot of examples that feel, to me, very similar to yours. Stories of mitigating behavior, of adjusting expectations and finding the courage to deal with a limiting condition. Like Larmoyant said, I have sympathy (I don't think I can imagine anywhere near what having BPD is like) and compassion for BPD sufferers - they didn't ask for this condition, and it's certainly not their fault that they came to acquire it. That said, and here's where I probably start sounding like a real ass - I don't know about y'all, but I'm looking for a relationship where "successful" means more than just making it through the day. When we say that our exes are out there, getting through the day as best they know how - well, some of their "the best I know how" is absolutely objectively appalling behavior. And we can do all the work in the world to understand it, to remind ourselves to depersonalize, to utilize every conflict-resolution tool and system we can, and we can get to the compassion and empathy or sympathy for them that reaching the understanding inevitably opens us up to (how can you be angry at someone suffering, let alone suffering to such a higher degree than you are?), but it still leaves me with the conclusion that the only way to have a low-conflict, satisfying relationship with someone with BPD is to... .not.

Now, obviously there's a lot of value assumptions in the perspective I'm taking here. And this is completely discounting those whos pwBPD are family (ie, not chosen). But again, there's a disconnect between the recovery stories I've read, and my idea of a truly healthy, inspiring relationship.  Like vanx says, success and failure can certainly be relative. And this might be entirely pedantic because, no matter what our exes were or weren't, our power and control is to be found only over (and inside of) ourselves. We completely agree on that. It isn't that I want to hang my recovery's hat on my ex's condition, or that I need to couch the dysfunction and subsequent pain in the ego defense of not examining my own actions and motivations. I'm just worried that I sometimes can't make sense of going too far in the other direction - sometimes, while reading this board, I hear "our exes have a mental disorder/illness", and I can't make sense of how it strikes me that we only interpret that in the sympathetic sense (adjust your expectations as a way of realizing your anger is misplaced), not in the actionable sense (take it as a fact that these relationships are inherently ultimately limited) as well. Also, in speaking of differentiation, I think part of my motivation here is that I have definitely taken on blame that wasn't mine to own before, as a means of controlling the situation -"if it's my fault, then I can fix it". Keeping this in mind when trying to assemble the millions of layers that make up the mosaic of "what the hell happened?" has, I think, been fruitful for me, and may be for others? Maybe not.


Anyways. This post got real long-winded and meandering, I appreciate the opportunity to throw spaghetti at the wall and write out some of my thoughts. Also, vanx, this thread is as much yours as mine, happy to hear other perspectives and people's reactions.

[once removed]

a lot of members compare their relationships to an addiction.

we all know the devastating effects of alcohol, the mortality rates, the nightmares it visits upon families. and just the same, we know that the number one diagnostic criteria for borderline personality disorder involves an unstable relationship history marked by idealization and devaluation. thats not in dispute.

but it misses the bigger picture. not everyone who comes into contact with alcohol becomes an addict and begins a downward spiral. addicts, when they come into recovery, often find ways to blame the bottle. addicts advance in their recovery when they stop saying "yeah, but this could have happened to anyone, just look at what it did to me, here are the facts about alcohol, people get addicted and x happens", and start exploring how it is they got where they did (as we are doing here). they advance not by blaming themselves or others, but by taking responsibility for their lives (living it. not just saying it). they move from victim, to survivor, to thriver.

it isnt a perfect analogy. alcohol doesnt call anyone names or lash out at you, or cheat on you. thats why anger and hurt are righteous and natural responses. it is, however, why i discourage "us vs them" thinking, or the notion that our relationships failed "because of a personality disorder". it begs the questions: "were the good times, the reasons we stayed, because of a personality disorder?" and "if our relationships failed because of a personality disorder, why do so many of us go on to repeat the same patterns and maladaptive coping?"

i get your analogy too, Optimus, and i think determining what you want and dont want in a partner (your idea of success) are a key part of recovery. i think part of recovery involves a certain amount of avoidance, ie determining what is "red flag" behavior to you, what your deal breakers are, etc. i healed from my relationship, i determined all of that, and i still went onto objectively more questionable relationships.

the real breakthrough came for me when i came here (plug for bpdfamily!) and started to do that me work you refer to. i learned that nearly 30% of the population, at any given time, could be diagnosed with a form of mental illness (including things like depression and anxiety) and realized i cant avoid my way through life and find more rewarding relationships; that i have to get better at navigating life. if anything, i walk around today with far more trust toward others and less fear, largely because i trust myself. second, i can be more emotionally available to healthy partners if i become one myself, and this is where Bowen's family systems theory comes into play. emotional maturity and differentiation are not fixed in place, we can grow and up our game. you will find more rewarding and enriching relationships of all kinds (sounds like youre finding this), and you wont "run" at the first site of a red flag, but you will not be drawn to chaotic, unstable, dysfunctional relationships or people. if you get into them (you may) you will reassess and make the needed adjustments based on good mental health.

so its not to disagree with you that unstable relationships are the number one criteria when it comes to diagnosing BPD. its to shift the emphasis. its to say this is about us, not the fact that "alcohol kills people". its to take responsibility, not blame.

for reference, here is more about differentiation:

The concept of Differentiation of Self is the ability to separate feelings and thoughts. Undifferentiated people can not separate feelings and thoughts; when dealing with relationships, they are flooded with feelings, and have difficulty thinking logically and basing their decisions on that. This often manifests as unrealistic needs and expectations.  Further, they have difficulty separating  their own feelings from the feelings of others.

Differentiation is described in many ways in the following points:

1. Growing in the ability to see where and how I fit into my relationship, the position I hold and the power that is and is not given to that position.

2. Growing in the ability to be fully responsible for my own life while being committed to growing closer to those I love.

3. Intentionally developing, at the same time, autonomy and intimacy. In developing autonomy I set myself towards achieving my dreams and ambitions. In developing intimacy, I allow those close to me to see and know me as I really am.

4. Being willing to say clearly who I am and who I want to be while others are trying to tell me who I am and who I should be.

5. Staying in touch with others while, and even though, there is tension and disagreement.

6. Being able to declare clearly what I need and requesting help from others without imposing my needs upon them.

7. Being able to understand what needs I can and cannot meet in my own life and in the lives of others.

8. Understanding that I am called to be distinct (separate) from others, without being distant from others.

9. Understanding that I am responsible to others but not responsible for others .

10. Growing in the ability to live from the sane, thinking and creative person I am, who can perceive possibilities and chase dreams and ambitions without hurting people in the process.

11. Growing in the ability to detect where controlling emotions and highly reactive behavior have directed my life, then, opting for better and more purposeful growth born of creative thinking.

12. Deciding never to use another person for my own ends and to be honest with myself about this when I see myself falling into such patterns.

13. Seeing my life as a whole, a complete unit, and not as compartmentalized, unrelated segments.

14. Making no heroes; taking no victims.

15. Giving up the search for the arrival of a Knight in Shining Armour who will save me from the beautiful struggles and possibilities presented in everyday living.

To differentiate is to provide a platform for maximum growth and personal development for everyone in your circle of influence. It means being able to calmly reflect on a conflicted interaction afterward, realizing your own role in it, and then choosing a different response for the future. Not to differentiate is to fuse (the failure to become a separate person) with others and to place responsibility on others (or on situations, predicaments, and hurdles) for the way in which our lives develop.

PS. im glad you shared more about your relationship in this thread, and i encourage you to do more of it; theres a lot i can relate to in terms of how i felt about my partner, and how i stayed in relationship turmoil in spite of it. i did some work on it here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=276121.msg12614401#msg12614401

[Meili]

I would like to echo once removed in saying that I'm glad that you shared more and the I can relate to much of what you said.

Like you, :

I knew nothing of BPD before this person, but threw up boundaries and walls very early on in her idealization and courting of me. With hindsight, I can see how my trying to extend tolerance or understanding in several instances was actually me compromising my boundaries and setting precedent, but I attempted to end things amicably several times, and continued to participate in recycling (we worked together). The failure to end things firmly and clearly lies entirely with me, but I mention this dynamic because I began our relationship detached, skeptical, slowing things down

All of that was true for me as well.

That being said, I had to recognize and accept that I was just as responsible for the relationship as my x was. It was my own feelings of insecurity that kept me involved in the situation. From her point-of-view, I am the one responsible for the demise of the relationship. I hurt her. I abandoned her. I'm the bad guy.

Maybe actually comparing her and I will help explain:

x = wants desperately to feel loved, safe, and secure -> fears abandonment -> engages maladaptive coping mechanisms (rages, manipulates, lies, projects, etc)
me = wants to have a loving relationship with someone who is a partner -> fears that I'm going to lose that when her maladaptive coping mechanisms are engaged -> reacts by engaging in maladaptive coping mechanisms (failing to maintain boundaries, circular arguments, JADE'ing, invalidating, etc.)

The fear component and maladaptive coping mechanisms in both situations are key. They exist on both sides of the relationships. You've acknowledged your own culpability in this regard in the part that I quoted above.

The real crux of all of this is, as once removed is trying to point out, if we do not stop and recognize our behaviors and find a way to correct our own maladaptive coping mechanisms, we are likely to repeat our past mistakes.

I've had relationships with non-disordered women. I'm still friends with the majority of them. But, when I am truly honest with myself as I look back on those relationships, I can see that I utilized the very same maladaptive coping mechanisms then too. Everything wasn't as pronounced because those women didn't respond in the same way that my x that brought me here did. Which is kinda the point of what we talk about around here.

Our relationships with pwBPD are different because of how the pwBPD responds to us. Sure, because they are present disordered traits, their responses are different from those who do not present the same traits, but the responses are to us none-the-less.

Like I said, and I can only speak for myself here, my other exes responded to me differently and thus things played out differently. On the Saving and Improving boards, we work to help the members respond differently to get different results from their pwBPD. If we want different results in our relationships, we must change how we respond to the stimuli presented by others.

[kc sunshine]

What do you all think about this bpdfamily sponsored article? It was helpful for me in understanding the arc of our relationship in a non-blaming way, but also it is pretty unequivocal in terms of the devastating cycle:
 
https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves

[bestintentions]

This thread has been on my mind for days, and is as intriguing as any I've come across.  I'm struggling to articulate my thoughts, which is uncommon for me, but I tend to side more toward Optimus and Larmoyant's perspectives here.  After 25 years of living with a pwBPD, I've learned many things during the aftermath of the final discard and subsequent commencement of my (clearly nonlinear) recovery.  Were there many, many red flags and awful behaviors that I ignored?  Of course.  Am I completely responsible for my own actions, thoughts and emotions?  Always have been.  Is it likely I codependently changed the way I dealt with her over the years in hopes she would change as a form of some kind of control whereas I truly had none?  Yeah, probably.  Was I crushed to learn about my own projections and that my xw was, in part, my own delusion?  <- THIS has been by far the most difficult realization.  A QUARTER CENTURY of living an illusion has me... .sometimes... .in AWE of how much I chose to overlook.  I take full responsibility for ALL of this and have even put this new knowledge to use in avoiding a potentially bad r/s since my divorce.  But... .whether I was (or am) foolish, delusional, self-loathing, codependent, childish, emotionally immature according to Bowens Theory or all of the above... .I loved my ex-wife unconditionally in the way that I wanted to be loved and I validated her wherever I could.  Is that the best and "healthiest" avenue to take in a r/s?  It's up for debate.

I'm very open to have holes poked in my words and thoughts by anyone and everyone but I have a really hard time accepting that I'm equally responsible for the demise of my marriage.  Is it not akin to being equally responsible for being hit by a drunk driver because your car was in his way?

[roberto516]

But... .whether I was (or am) foolish, delusional, self-loathing, codependent, childish, emotionally immature according to Bowens Theory or all of the above... .I loved my ex-wife unconditionally in the way that I wanted to be loved and I validated her wherever I could.  Is that the best and "healthiest" avenue to take in a r/s?  It's up for debate.

Bowens theory is just that... .a theory. So it's up for debate. Bowen also said himself that he didn't think anyone, himself included, was completely differentiated. According to Bowen as well, stress is the real catalyst for partners in a relationship to be confronted with their differentiation (youtube about how a lobster sheds only in response to stress... .it's really impactful) But this will only be resolved through communication, empathy, and willingness from both people. Does that mean both people do it all the time? Probably not. Some days one partner will regress back to childhood differentiation and the partner will have to exercise patience, understanding and empathy to assist. Then on another day it can be vice versa.

As to the other thing I quoted I do not believe there is anything wrong with what you said. The important thing is, if you ever want to, to find someone who reciprocates those exact same things. We are all flawed, every human on this earth, I just think those who succeed in relationships realize that and have more of a commitment to make it work mutually than others (or they stay in a superficial state so as to protect their inner hurt child... .which everyone in my opinion has). Listen, I wasn't perfect. But I did the same things. Could I have walked away? Of course I could have. But I had walked away so many times before in relationships. I thought that I had to stop running at the first excuse and actually give a relationship an honest to god try after my first relationship with someone who had BPD traits.

Couples who stay together are those who do those exact things. They love, validate, forgive and look inside themselves to see what they can change and make an honest effort to do that. The sad reality is that it does take two to tango. It was just up to us to take a real hard look and see that "Okay this isn't a mutual loving relationship and without real effort from both of us this isn't going to work out." That was our responsibility to make that choice no matter how much we loved someone.

Rest assured that one day, if you want it, someone will look at you and go "Okay he's a human and he has his difficulties and he isn't always Romeo but you know what? The good outweighs the bad and I'm not perfect either so let's see how we can both learn to work on this to see what can be done." It's what we all deserve at the end of the day. And if it's not from a partner than it will come from ourselves.

Schopenhauer eloquently said "The more a man has in himself the less he will want from other people; the less, indeed, people can be for him." I lived my life to that maxim in between these two damaging relationships which is why it was so hard for me to actually break down my walls and commit to loving her. Deep down those walls were actually trying to save me but I'd rather give it a genuine commitment to love than hide behind my fears. Just my two cents.

[Larmoyant]

Optimus, I’m so sorry for venting on your thread. There is so much to think about here and some thought provoking responses.

I am standing by my view that the abuse associated with his personality disorder predominantly led to the demise of the relationship. I contributed to the dysfunction and I own that, but I left because of the abuse and I was not equally responsible for that no matter what my issues were. Is personality disorder synonymous with abuse? I don’t know, but in my relationship they often went hand in hand.

.it isnt a perfect analogy. alcohol doesnt call anyone names or lash out at you, or cheat on you. thats why anger and hurt are righteous and natural responses.

.

The use of the alcohol addiction analogy doesn’t sit well with me either. As you say Once removed alcohol doesn’t abuse us. If we are alcoholics we abuse it. I suppose you could say that alcohol hurts us and that it’s our own fault because we choose to drink it. Fair enough, but it’s not the same as when someone is abusing you. People drink for many reasons and people stay in abusive relationships for many reasons. It begs the question are we responsible, solely or equally, for the damage that is done to us because we choose to stay in an abusive relationship? Maybe we are? We are adults after all, not helpless children. Yet, something doesn’t feel quite right about that.

I stayed for a number of reasons and one of them no doubt was an attempt, as Roberto says, to protect my inner child. To avoid the pain associated with rejection. A pain I’d felt before and I own that issue. I also stayed because it doesn’t always hurt, which leads me to consider this:

. it begs the questions: "were the good times, the reasons we stayed, because of a personality disorder?"

.

If I am interpreting this question correctly then I would say that yes, one of the reasons I stayed was for the good times and those were related to the personality disorder in the form of idealisation, particularly at the beginning but still popping up intermittently throughout the relationship. It was a reason to stay. There were moments of great tenderness when he painted me white and I wanted more. Intermittent reinforcement was powerful. 

I also stayed, as Bestintentions did, and all of us no doubt, because of love. I clung to the positive hoping the abuse would go away and it sometimes did. The periods of idealisation were amazing. Just as the periods of devaluation were hell. Looking back where was the in between? There wasn’t any. Highs/lows, no stable ground.

No doubt I’m going to be told that this means that I was emotionally immature or unhealthy to have fallen for it (the idealisation) and maybe I was. A lesson learned and I won’t be so gullible again, yet it still doesn’t excuse the abuse or make me equally responsible for it. Am I being asked to believe that it failed because I fell for the idealisation? That it failed because I had poor boundaries and didn’t protect myself? Is this on an equal footing with abusive behaviours so bad I ended up having an emotional break-down? Did I cause my own emotional breakdown? Am I missing something here?

Finally, sorry, I feel like I could waffle on forever as this thread has interested me so much, but another reason I stayed is also related to his personality disorder, FOG. I’m not saying that only people with personality disorders use these strategies or that they necessarily use them in a conscious way, but I stayed because I was knee deep in FOG. Fear, obligation and guilt, ‘tools’, for want of a better word, that my ex used to keep me there. As I said not necessarily consciously. In fact, knowing it may not have all been conscious triggers a lot of sadness when I think of how desperate he was sometimes that he used unproductive ways to engage with me, to get his needs met, to secure a sense of self.

My heart aches for him when all’s said and done, but I’ve had to push that aside a little bit, and focus on self-compassion a little more so I can pick myself up. Maybe I’ve started to turn my anger outwards instead of in and maybe it’s about time. That’s better right? Isn’t part of depression anger turned inwards.
 
I’m not saying or at least I don’t think so that everything that went wrong in the relationship was his fault, but the abuse was and it predominantly failed due to this. I do take responsibility for my part. I’ve done a lot of work and I know my issues, but you know sometimes people just hurt us and we have little part in it and they make it impossible to go on.

What I’ve read about pwBPD is that they that they can behave in the present to something that hurt them in the past and act out on that. I suspect that’s what my ex was doing when he made the cruel decision that ultimately led to the loss of my career. It may not have been deliberate, and maybe it was part of his impulsivity, inability to self-regulate and control emotions, but it was designed, in the moment, to hurt, to punish me, cause damage and it did. For something that his feelings told him were fact. Part of the personality disorder. Nothing to do with me or reality. How am I equally responsible for that? I left because of abusive behaviours just like this and that is why the relationship failed. I wasn’t faultless, but the disorder forced the break and it wasn’t a level playing field.

Now I can breath. Wow, where is all this coming from 

Sorry, Optimus.

[OptimusRhyme]

So I wrote and rewrote this reply a few times, but I'm still not very satisfied with my articulation, but here goes.

but it misses the bigger picture. not everyone who comes into contact with alcohol becomes an addict and begins a downward spiral.

This sort of speaks to the big point I'm trying to raise, and seek clarity on. To my perspective and experience, there is NO ONE who has come into contact with someone with BPD, and has the sort of long-lasting, fulfilling, clear cut healthy relationship I'm talking about. I saw my grandparents married for 60+ years before my grandfather passed, my parents have been happily married for 30+. Of course they have and had their struggles, but it's clear as day, these are healthy, positive partnerships. There's no "yes but", there's no second thoughts, there's no "here are the tools I use to get jack or jill to have an honest conversation with me". I read about recovered BPD sufferers, and the story is much like when I talk to my friends in substance abuse programs - they are always one step away from regression, and it is a constant daily affirmation and struggle to continue to walk the path. Now, am I sympathetic towards that? Of course! That's a plight I've never had to deal with, and I'm sure it requires tremendous strength and wisdom, and involves suffering that I cannot imagine. But, if I was in a "have 10 drinks and don't become an alcoholic" contest, would I pick my friends in AA as partners? Probably not. So, in the quest for a functional relationship, right now, in my recovery, it seems like an insurmountable disadvantage to pick someone with BPD in that quest. I hear about couples with a BPD sufferer, like bestintentions, where it took 25-30 years to come to the same conclusion I came to - that this wasn't worth it, and wasn't sustainable. (I don't mean worth it in like "I wasted my time", I mean that after that period of time, their lives were better without this person in them than with). I don't hear about couples that have been together that long where the non says "this was easily worth it. They've always had my back, I knew I could count on them, they've enriched my life, showed me how to get through hard times, etc etc".

Furthermore, the way we even talk about taking responsibility is telling to me - meili, you said "I was just as responsible for the relationship as my x was. It was my own feelings of insecurity that kept me involved in the situation." This implies to me that the healthy decision would have been to not be involved in the situation, no? So if that's the best we can hope for in "healthy responses to a BPD relationship" then that doesn't sound like a game I want to play, full stop. Also, "From her point-of-view, I am the one responsible for the demise of the relationship. I hurt her. I abandoned her. I'm the bad guy." Right, but she is miles farther from reality than you are. I can accept the idea that the tools needed to navigate a disorder like this are powerful and can be applied to all other relationships to great effect (after all, we're all some degree of perspective away from total reality, and the more we learn and understand our own distortions, the more we can navigate others and achieve rich, fulfilling relationships). But is it not valid for me to say "I'd rather spend those tools on people who start out closer to the reality 95% of the world agrees on?"
 

i dont mean to suggest an emotionally healthy individual would not get involved with someone with BPD traits. not only do i think thats an absurd blanket statement, but it would totally stand against the unbelievable work ive seen so many do on the Improving board. emotionally healthy and grounded people dont get knee deep in, and remain in, relationship dysfunction and turmoil (that is where it takes two).

My point is (and this ties in with what roberto is saying about couples who stay together) on some level, that dysfunction and turmoil is what they seem to have to offer. Emotionally healthy people, to me, are capable of carrying, as well as being carried. Of leading, as well as being led. Of initiating conflict resolution, as well as being open to it. This is not something I know of people with BPD doing, exactly because of the way the disorder seems to manifest. Yes, lots of people on the improving board do absolutely incredible work, and I'm sure I sound like a really selfish, spoiled dick when I make this distinction, but the work they do is making a bad situation better out of necessity (family, or they have a child with the pwBPD, etc etc). I'm not discounting their work (edit: actually, this is exactly what I'm doing, but I don't mean to discount it objectively) - I am blessed to be able to be a coward and dodge the question entirely by completely leaving my BPD situation and moving on without consequence (ie, no kids, no shared assets, financials, we no longer work together, etc). And if I focused on how unfair it is that my ex had BPD, and how awful the manifestations of it were, you're absolutely right - I'd almost certainly walk smack into my next BPD relationship. Hell, maybe I will and this particular issue will suddenly click for me.

I am NOT arguing that we view ourselves as victims, that we view people with BPD as demons or evil, or even that coming to the position I find myself in is possible WITHOUT first doing a lot of (and continuing to do, this process has no end) deep and difficult self-inspection. I have a lot of empathy for what pwBPD must suffer. But the kindest way I've seen (in my experience and the experience I read of others who I think are emotionally healthy) to demonstrate that empathy is to hold them at a comfortable, healthy emotional arms length FOR YOU, because they will test it. Consequently, it may take 2 weeks, it make take 30 years, but eventually that testing breaks even the healthiest people down. (OR, the other situation I haven't touched on here, which is that I have heard and read many accounts of people having successful and rewarding relationships because the expectation and level of intimacy is set from the outset as low, and these people still need to put in work to keep the BPD's escalation at bay, which doesn't seem worth the cost of investment to me). My point is, there are lots of non-disordered people who won't do that, and that's an actionable difference in my decision making looking forward. I think I'm arguing for a balance between the pragmatic power - focus on yourself, your actions, your paradigms, why this relationship hurt so much, because those are the things that will help you make your next relationship even better, and the sad but pragmatic truth, which is that some people will spend their entire lives not facing their disorder (or, probably closer to the truth, not facing their disorder successfully, whatever that means) and, at best, be very challenging to their loved ones. I'm advocating for smart emotional investment, I think? I'm not looking to blame, or to imbue any sort of emotional defense mechanisms to the pain of the past - quite the opposite. When we take our emotions away from the situation and look at it with detachment, do the results not look unattractive for both partners, BPD and non alike(if our objective is a fulfilling, intimate relationship)? Is that not empowering for our future decisions?

Again, I don't wish to demonize or project any additional trauma on people with BPD, and I'm uncomfortable even as I make this argument, because them vs us thinking and victim mentalities are not known for their insight, understanding, and ability to affect positive change. But for anyone who possesses the internal wisdom and strength to continually provide a healthy container (thanks Winnicott) for someone with BPD, why would you choose to spend your abilities that way unless you had to? Is there a more mature, emotionally centered way to interact with someone with BPD, besides very careful, energy-consuming, respectful but differentiated interactions that seem inherently more difficult than "normal" interactions? And if that's it, then is it not valid to just say "pwBPD are limited in the ways that are relevant to me when it comes to relationships, and that sucks an awful lot but I have no control over that, so I give them a wide berth as a matter of principle?"


EDIT: Larmoyant, absolutely no need to apologize. I'm humbled and appreciative that this thread has sparked this discussion, and I'm thankful for your contributions. Like I said to vanx, this thread (and board) is as much yours as mine or anybody elses, and it's the interaction here that's got me wanting to pay it forward and put a bunch of my thoughts to the page to see the perspectives of others.

[OptimusRhyme]

The edit time window passed, but:

Edit 2 from previous post: I think the other reason I'm uncomfortable with my lack of articulation is that this is probably the most time I've spent focusing on my ex's disorder and NOT been focusing on the lessons I can take to all my other relationships - after awhile at the beginning of my recovery, I got tired of trying to understand the disorder. It's a sad fact that she has it, but my efforts to change reality by understanding it, or bettering myself with any sort relationship skills, all ended in, at best, inefficiently spent time, and at worst, disappointment and pain (because I wasn't detached enough, or healthily differentiated). I'm not looking to spend most of my time talking about how my ex had BPD, or how limited people with BPD are or aren't. But I think I'm finally getting comfortable with, ironically, the shallow "common sense" dismissive wisdom of a lot of people I know who I don't believe think as deeply as I do - the classic "oh, her? Yeah, she's crazy". No investment, no malice, just a detached acknowledging of a sad fact.

[marti644]

OptimusRhyme,

Really interesting thread, and I have appreciated all your (and others) thoughts on this. I have some thoughts about this.

I can validate and agree that having a relationship with someone with severe PD traits is not something I want to do again. All three of my long-term serious relationships were with people with significant issues that led to me ending the relationships. The pain I felt after each of these relationships was excruciating, and I bear the scars of all the relationships on me.

That pain is the key to me understanding what is wrong with me. I spent far to long grieving and ruminating. This was a clear sign that I am not mentally healthy in relationships. That was my starting point for self-reflection.

Now I flip it around. Okay, I don't think its worth being with someone with BPD. But why do I need to be dismissive? Why bottle up the fact that it hurt I?

I should be hurt. I should care. I loved this person and we both hurt each-other (its not uni-directional). I don't buy into the BPD's 'don't have feelings' thesis anymore (not saying you said this, because I don't think you did). They just manifest in different ways. They aren't living some care-free life. My ex was always having night terrors, talking in her sleep, having nightmares, disassociating because of flashbacks. After a breakup you become part of their torture. She was a prescription drug addict, to alleviate her pain. It is not a win-win situation to have BPD, there lives turn into a disaster without help. I don't rejoice in the self-destruction of others (or my own self destructive habits of trying to rescue a destructor anymore). Not saying you rejoice in this either, just saying.

Just because they pretend everything is fine doesn't mean it is (and just because we can try to pretend everything is fine doesn't make it so either). A raging alcoholics lifestyle at 21 years of age looks great, but run into that person when their 40 or 50 and see the difference. It's a tragedy pure and simple. That's my simple truth.

And you might be right that the common sense of alot of people is without investment but it is with malice I think, even though it is passive and indirect. There are taboos about mental illness in society that I believe are clearly wrong and unhelpful and mitigate more awareness of the issues of personality disorders. Everyone on this board knows someone with a significant mental illness or at least serious traits. I think we should be working to have compassion (after going through the grieving process and stages of anger of course). In the end what was all this for? I chose to make it a positive learning experience because I only live once. To make it only a 100% negative experience is the black and white thinking that got me into this relationship in the first place.

Besides, I tried the 'not caring approach' and ended up in the same dysfunctional pattern two other times. I'm a mess, even though I hide it quite well! How many of you can say the same?

thanks for reading and stay thirsty my friends,

marti

[once removed]

Bowens theory is just that... .a theory.

so is the theory of relativity but both are pretty well established  

It begs the question are we responsible, solely or equally, for the damage that is done to us because we choose to stay in an abusive relationship? Maybe we are? We are adults after all, not helpless children. Yet, something doesn’t feel quite right about that.

"responsible for" is very different than blame or "deserve". if we are not responsible for ourselves, who is? many of us gave that responsibility to ourselves away. should we expect healthy relationships in the future if that is our strategy?

Am I being asked to believe that it failed because I fell for the idealisation? That it failed because I had poor boundaries and didn’t protect myself?

i think that if one is assuming that the relationship was "doomed" because of a personality disorder, then yes, having poor boundaries and not protecting yourself are not recipes for relationship success. is that the same as saying you are on equal footing with abusive behaviors? i dont think it is. its a far cry from saying you deserved them.

when someone is abusive toward us, it is a valid reason to exit a relationship. to do so is to take responsibility for what you have control over; well differentiated.

Optimus, it sounds like you are saying that BPD is synonymous with relationship turmoil and dysfunction, and so you choose not to go down that road again. thats valid. i liked your point about how no, you would not repeat the experience just to experience self growth. i think that would be an example of poor differentiation.

Bowen also said himself that he didn't think anyone, himself included, was completely differentiated. According to Bowen as well, stress is the real catalyst for partners in a relationship to be confronted with their differentiation (youtube about how a lobster sheds only in response to stress... .it's really impactful) But this will only be resolved through communication, empathy, and willingness from both people. Does that mean both people do it all the time? Probably not. Some days one partner will regress back to childhood differentiation and the partner will have to exercise patience, understanding and empathy to assist. Then on another day it can be vice versa.

good points. i think these relationships are a sort of ultimate test of how we respond to adversity, the likes of which may not have been in front of us before.

i also think we are a little bit bogged down in assigning percentages as to who contributed what dysfunction and how much, and i dont think that anyone is saying that everything in our relationships was 50/50. i dont think even the healthiest of relationships breaks down exactly 50/50.

sitting here today, in retrospect, my relationship looks roughly equal in terms of who contributed to both the dysfunction of the relationship, and its demise. maybe for you its 60-40. maybe its 70-30. i dont think the number is as important as learning and understanding what our role was and how we played a part, and owning it. give it some time, experience some more growth (and/or mistakes), and i suspect your perspective on this may change.

When we take our emotions away from the situation and look at it with detachment, do the results not look unattractive for both partners, BPD and non alike(if our objective is a fulfilling, intimate relationship)? Is that not empowering for our future decisions?

it is.

dysfunctional relationship <------this is where we were
this is where we want to be ------> healthy relationship

where do we go from here, and how do we get there?