Preparing for Divorce with upwBPD

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi all,

I’ve been mostly on the conflicted board but after a lot of time and reflection have decided divorce is in order.

I haven’t quite figured out how to actually proceed. Tell him in a sit down?  Continue prep and just leave (with the kids)? Or do what the first attorney said and request the court remove him in the short term (I can’t afford the house)?

I believe he wants a divorce EXCEPT it will destroy the illusion of a perfect life, so I know I’m in for a smear campaign. I don’t care about anyone he would tell so he’s not so scary in that regard.

I’d appreciate some experienced advice from as many perspectives as you all are willing to give. My primary, non emotional concerns are financial support and custody (know this is emotional, but looking for practical application).

Married 27 years. Worked from home. Primary child provider, household runner.

uBPDH is a L (aggressive, mean, vindictive). Primary breadwinner. Not so much child or house responsibility.

Finances —

Last 5 years — H average is $250K
Last 5 years — my average is $45K, but current salary is $75K

He has not made as much this year for obvious reasons, but things are picking up, so I think he will be back to that average and +. I know it seems a lot of money, and it is, but it is an expensive area and on my income alone, I am below average for a single person, let alone one with 3 kids (1 kid is mostly self sufficient).

Approx 15 years to retirement.

Can I expect some financial support (we live in expensive state and I can’t leave)?  

How long will I get support?  I’ve seen broad ranges on both so curious for real world examples.

Custody —

I’ve raised 2 of 4 children, working on other 2 (elem and middle school). Done every school event, doctor visit, extra curricular, religion, etc.  Every birthday party, play date.  I still work from home.

I’d like primary physical custody and joint legal/medical with tie breaker (but that seems like you just get those if you’re tie breaker, but maybe I don’t quite understand it).  He can have every other weekend or 1 weekend/month, a week in summer, every other holiday.

Thoughts on this? Any child support?

I’m working on strategy and picking a L, but the finances and custody are my biggest worries. Appreciate any feedback.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi all,

I’ve been mostly on the conflicted board but after a lot of time and reflection have decided divorce is in order.

I haven’t quite figured out how to actually proceed. Tell him in a sit down?  Continue prep and just leave (with the kids)? Or do what the first attorney said and request the court remove him in the short term (I can’t afford the house)?

I believe he wants a divorce EXCEPT it will destroy the illusion of a perfect life, so I know I’m in for a smear campaign. I don’t care about anyone he would tell so he’s not so scary in that regard.

I’d appreciate some experienced advice from as many perspectives as you all are willing to give. My primary, non emotional concerns are financial support and custody (know this is emotional, but looking for practical application).

Married 27 years. Worked from home. Primary child provider, household runner.

uBPDH is a L (aggressive, mean, vindictive). Primary breadwinner. Not so much child or house responsibility.

Finances —

Last 5 years — H average is $250K
Last 5 years — my average is $45K, but current salary is $75K

He has not made as much this year for obvious reasons, but things are picking up, so I think he will be back to that average and +. I know it seems a lot of money, and it is, but it is an expensive area and on my income alone, I am below average for a single person, let alone one with 3 kids (1 kid is mostly self sufficient).

Approx 15 years to retirement.

Can I expect some financial support (we live in expensive state and I can’t leave)?  

How long will I get support?  I’ve seen broad ranges on both so curious for real world examples.

Custody —

I’ve raised 2 of 4 children, working on other 2 (elem and middle school). Done every school event, doctor visit, extra curricular, religion, etc.  Every birthday party, play date.  I still work from home.

I’d like primary physical custody and joint legal/medical with tie breaker (but that seems like you just get those if you’re tie breaker, but maybe I don’t quite understand it).  He can have every other weekend or 1 weekend/month, a week in summer, every other holiday.

Thoughts on this? Any child support?

I’m working on strategy and picking a L, but the finances and custody are my biggest worries. Appreciate any feedback.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Welcome!  I remember seeing you around on the conflicted boards too ;)

You've got a lot packed into your post. I'll agree it looks and sounds overwhelming. You don't have to have all the answers.

I have seen advice in several venues to take the alpha-strike approach.  File for everything, take the kids, get a TRO, etc.  I couldn't stomach any of that. It seemed like a good way to poke the  proverbial bear / wake a sleeping giant, etc. .

That said, there's not an easy, kind, nice, amicable way out. 

Story time, for comparison: We have been to a mediator, who fired us. (said she wasn't a good match, and suggested aside, that I should file for divorce and make my allegations of abuse there).  My wife can be Mother Theresa for a day or two in a row.  Plus, as a working dad, with a STBX that mostly doesn't work, or works from home, it would be highly irregular for dad to get the kids where I live. I'll have to fight tooth and nail, uphill all the way to get 50/50 custody. 

Now we're trying to make a negotiated settlement - that's where you both get attorneys and have them talk it out.  Costs more that mediation, might still give a good result.

So far, it looks to me that our settlement negotiations will end in a fiery crash. I'm not putting much hope in it, nor am I putting much money and time into the effort.  STBX has steadily increased her accusations, allegations, suspicions, paranoia, demands and enmeshment - all with a waif / victim pleading eye.

That said, there are a few paths for you to choose. Above all, research it.  don't ever say a word to H until you have a plan for the next five steps or so. Don't just bring it up to see what he says and does. You are not dealing with a rational person.  Overcome the need to be caretaker and a concerned partner (if you're like me anyway, those traits tend to be strong).  A weird analogy I have is that I don't understand why they clean the needle injection site before doing a lethal injection.  I mean, they are putting the prisoner to death.  Will he get an infection?

So, when it comes to divorce, you are going to hurt feelings, and probably feel bad.  But, you are ending a marriage.  Don't bother cleaning the proverbial injection site. Do what's needed for you to survive and be alright.

Another street-wisdom kind of tip is that by making hard answers, to hard questions, you get an easier life.

I am catching on to that, but 20 years latter than I should have.

[UBPDHelp]

Welcome!  I remember seeing you around on the conflicted boards too ;)

You've got a lot packed into your post. I'll agree it looks and sounds overwhelming. You don't have to have all the answers.

I have seen advice in several venues to take the alpha-strike approach.  File for everything, take the kids, get a TRO, etc.  I couldn't stomach any of that. It seemed like a good way to poke the  proverbial bear / wake a sleeping giant, etc. .

Thanks Sam.  I agree about poking the bear. Not interested in that BUT also want what I’m entitled to and am almost certain he will throw outrageous accusations at me and fight just to fight, so am considering asking for more than I would accept to hopefully get close to what I would take.

The main reason the finances are so important to me is that I simply will never be able to earn more and my job is stressful and has a lot of turnover so doesn’t feel immensely secure.

Can I buy a house knowing I have alimony for 10 years?  What if it’s only 5?  Makes a difference. Some things suggest because we’ve been married 27 years, he’s been the primary breadwinner and makes substantially more than I do, I would get permanent alimony (as in reasonably until retirement, which happens to be in about half the length of marriage).

Other things suggest I’ll get a few years and then be expected to be self supporting. That matters.  

I am not hoping to get huge alimony to buy a huge house and take vacations. Quite the contrary, I’d like to buy a less expensive house and try to do 50% more to principal so when I can retire, I’ll own the house outright. Going from 3000 sq ft to 900-1200 sq feet.  Not looking to live large at all.  

There is no retirement savings. He doesn’t think it’s worthwhile young and was making a lot of money so he planned to continue and when kids were grown, be able to sock more away in shorter amount of time. Now he doesn’t want to keep working, at least as much.

He’s tired of being the breadwinner and now he wants me to shoulder more financial responsibility AND still continue with the child and household duties.

Soo, just trying to get some feel for how alimony/spousal support plays out in similar circumstances.

That said, there's not an easy, kind, nice, amicable way out.  

I hear this. I accept it. And, I didn’t plan to be here. It is not a decision made lightly.

I’d like to leave and buy a little house and have some immediate peace.  The L (will speak to others, too) didn’t think I should leave and thought I should have the court make him go. Pretty sure that is poking the bear.

And, if I go, then I’m afraid he will stake claim to any house I buy.  But I long for peace. So really trying to consider options, more for legal standing, but considering emotional damage, too.

Story time, for comparison: We have been to a mediator, who fired us. (said she wasn't a good match, and suggested aside, that I should file for divorce and make my allegations of abuse there).  My wife can be Mother Theresa for a day or two in a row.  Plus, as a working dad, with a STBX that mostly doesn't work, or works from home, it would be highly irregular for dad to get the kids where I live. I'll have to fight tooth and nail, uphill all the way to get 50/50 custody.  

Now we're trying to make a negotiated settlement - that's where you both get attorneys and have them talk it out.  Costs more that mediation, might still give a good result.

So far, it looks to me that our settlement negotiations will end in a fiery crash. I'm not putting much hope in it, nor am I putting much money and time into the effort.  STBX has steadily increased her accusations, allegations, suspicions, paranoia, demands and enmeshment - all with a waif / victim pleading eye.

That said, there are a few paths for you to choose. Above all, research it.  don't ever say a word to H until you have a plan for the next five steps or so. Don't just bring it up to see what he says and does. You are not dealing with a rational person.  Overcome the need to be caretaker and a concerned partner (if you're like me anyway, those traits tend to be strong).  A weird analogy I have is that I don't understand why they clean the needle injection site before doing a lethal injection.  I mean, they are putting the prisoner to death.  Will he get an infection?

So, when it comes to divorce, you are going to hurt feelings, and probably feel bad.  But, you are ending a marriage.  Don't bother cleaning the proverbial injection site. Do what's needed for you to survive and be alright.

Another street-wisdom kind of tip is that by making hard answers, to hard questions, you get an easier life.

I am catching on to that, but 20 years latter than I should have.

Thank you for sharing. I am not sharing a single plan with him. For as horrible as he is, I can’t fathom how he doesn’t know, but he is the greatest (his opinion only), so believe his view is cloudy at best. I don’t think he believes I will ever leave. Geesh, kind of proved I’ll put up with a lot of   !

So, in some ways, believe he is in the dark. So I plan quietly until I’m ready enough or have no choice.

Again, thank you for sharing your story.  It really helps and I pray you get a resolution that you are pleased with and find some peace with lots of time with your kids. Bless you.

[kells76]

Hey UBPDHelp;

Good advice from SamwizeGamgee about not "seeing if it's OK" or running things past stbxH (soon-to-be-ex-husband). Really smart to not "have him along equally at each step of the way", because that'll undermine your planning. Sure, maybe a "sit down and inform" session is in the future... but like Samwize said, be 5 steps ahead at that point and have that be a thought-through part of your strategy.

Big picture strategy:

I believe he wants a divorce EXCEPT it will destroy the illusion of a perfect life

This could be helpful as you craft offers and deals. One of the phrases we toss around here sometimes is "How can you make the other parent feel like they're winning [when in reality, you're winning]?"

Would he "feel like he's winning" if he can "keep his reputation" or come out of this looking "immaculate"?

Are there offers you can make or plans you can push that give you what you want (and what the kids need) while preserving much of his image?

Does that make sense?

This is also very interesting to me:

He’s tired of being the breadwinner and now he wants me to shoulder more financial responsibility AND still continue with the child and household duties.

because, in a sense, isn't that "what you want" too? I mean, you want to continue with the kid care (as a way of protecting them from being alone with him a lot)... you want to shoulder more financial responsibility (so that you can live on your own and not with him)...

I feel like you have a lot of good info for a big picture strategy for how to couch your offers in terms that will appeal to his desire to have the image of a perfect life, plus his victim-y tendency to feel like "why do I have to do all the work".

It would take a minute to drill down into specifics, but maybe let those ideas frame the offers/plans you start to put together.

How can you phrase something YOU want, in a way that he feels like he's getting what HE wants.

Um... couple of quick phrasing ideas before I have to go:

could be stuff like "UBPDHelp agrees that Mr UBPDHelp should not bear the totality of financial responsibilities after the creation of two homes for the children, and recognizes that his desire for her to also be a "breadwinner" is fair. Mrs UBPDHelp agrees to [X, Y, and Z]" where X, Y, and Z are things you already wanted to do, except you're framing them as "fair to him".

could also be stuff like "UBPDHelp proposes that to support Mr UBPDHelp's successful work endeavors, she will assume care for Z% of child medical and dental appointments including transportation to and from".

That's all rough draft there, but those points you made about how your stbxH thinks seem really, really important.

Yeah, things might blow up at some time. But you could have a "Plan C" for that in your back pocket while at the present working the angle of "how do I get what the kids need by phrasing things in an agreement that will appeal the preservation of his self image and his desire to be a victim".

[GaGrl]

Kell's points are good -- give him a way to present this as amicable.

For the house, since you want him out but you can't afford to keep the large house, make that clear when you petition that he leave -- wording around you and the children staying in the house pending sale and settlement of the house at which point you buy more appropriate housing for your new circumstances.

The lack of retirement funding is problematic. You should have been able to get a percentage of a 401k of IRA, or he should have been finding an IRA for you. I would talk to a lawyer about how to rectify this via alimony. If the alimony supplements you post-divorce (understanding child support is a separate payment), then part of that alimony needs to be put in an IRA.

Make sure your child support agreement specifies college expense payments for the two youngest,has well as medical insurance to age 26.

Holidays are usually alternated on the actual holiday. For example, each of you might get a week at Christmas, or half the school holiday, with the actual Christmas Day alternating.

Sunset vacations are typically at least two weeks with each parent, uninterripted.

Your H might not want or be able to handle that much parenting time. That gives you some negotiation room.

What else is on your mind?

[ForeverDad]

For the house, since you want him out but you can't afford to keep the large house, make that clear when you petition that he leave -- wording around you and the children staying in the house pending sale and settlement of the house at which point you buy more appropriate housing for your new circumstances.

Clearly you cannot maintain the house long term, it's too expensive.  So you and kids remaining in the home during the divorce is usually okay with court in temp orders.  Typically he could get possession of the house once you are set up in housing elsewhere.  That would be funded, at least in part, by your portion of the home's equity.

It may be that he too needs to trim his expenses.  As indicated by GaGrl you may have to press him and the court to get the oversized house sold.  If that is to be done, then you need to be in charge of that process or he could sabotage you every step of the way.

State laws do vary across states.  You are almost surely due half of the home's equity.  If there's not much equity there then you'll have to seek more from his other assets or income capability.

[worriedStepmom]

I highly recommend you consult with a lawyer to find out what is standard in your state, and what evidence is needed to get a non-standard outcome (if you decide that it's necessary).  Rules about alimony and custody and asset division differ from state to state.

As you make plans going forward, remember that it's not necessary to go to a permanent solution right away.  It's okay to rent for a year and then buy a house.  When I divorced, I bought a small house right away. I wanted stability for my kids.  The week I moved in, I had a date with a guy who I eventually married.  Two years to the week after that, I sold that house so that we could move to a more convenient location for our new blended family.  I would have been *much* better off renting.

[formflier]

Hey confirm a couple things..it may affect the advice you get here.

Your hubby is a lawyer..right?  Has he ever been involved in divorces/divorce law?

I think that you don't mention a word to him until you have sorted out your legal team and are ready to go.  Perhaps they will have a recommendation.

Regarding the house.  How long until your youngest turns 18?

Wouldn't it be nice to have them stay put until then.  Sell the house then and split up proceeds, perhaps some of it goes towards educational expenses.

Many of your questions really need to be answered by your legal team.

You also need to realize that you can get alimony for life if he agrees to it or one year if you agree to it. 

I think what you are really asking is...if this goes to trial and the judge imposes what is "normal" in my state..what will I get?  (and that's a great question to ask)

I'll certainly ask for input from others on the legal board, but I think that most people seem  "most satisfied" when they get a settlement (vice go to trial).  I should say "well written" settlement.

So...it's not good to just have "my ex will do Y".

What you need to have is "my ex will do Y by Z date.  If Y is not done then A begins to happen until B number of days past the time Y gets done."

Read that a couple of times. 

Whatever you want to happen, be specific, then be clear about automatic "remedies" that will happen and continue to happen until all is made right.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hey UBPDHelp;

Good advice from SamwizeGamgee about not "seeing if it's OK" or running things past stbxH (soon-to-be-ex-husband). Really smart to not "have him along equally at each step of the way", because that'll undermine your planning. Sure, maybe a "sit down and inform" session is in the future... but like Samwize said, be 5 steps ahead at that point and have that be a thought-through part of your strategy.

Big picture strategy:

This could be helpful as you craft offers and deals. One of the phrases we toss around here sometimes is "How can you make the other parent feel like they're winning [when in reality, you're winning]?"

Would he "feel like he's winning" if he can "keep his reputation" or come out of this looking "immaculate"?

Are there offers you can make or plans you can push that give you what you want (and what the kids need) while preserving much of his image?

Does that make sense?

I do think this makes sense. When I discussed with L the rage texts (no great details were shared, simply that they would bring you to your knees), she said exactly that, because he is a L with a reputation to protect, he may prefer this doesn’t come out.

The flip side is he doesn’t care — which he constantly professes he doesn’t give a  what anyone thinks, so it could backfire and damage his earning capacity so would depend on his mood I suppose which way it would go.

Truth is, I’ve thought about calling in his partner and all the secretaries for the last 10 years to testify to his mouth (verbal/emotional abuse). He’s shown me messages he’s sent to his partner saying very mean things and threatening to break up the partnership. Kind of like threatening divorce in the business world. I’m really quick...this comparison just occurred to me. Ugh, I am unsettled.

This is also very interesting to me:

because, in a sense, isn't that "what you want" too? I mean, you want to continue with the kid care (as a way of protecting them from being alone with him a lot)... you want to shoulder more financial responsibility (so that you can live on your own and not with him)...

It is true that it is what I want.  I guess what I was trying to convey is that there was no discussion (the kids are getting older and I’m tired of the financial pressure so what can we do to have you help alleviate more of that responsibility?  And, if you’re shouldering more financial responsibility, what household/kid chores could I take off your plate?).  Just decided he was tired of it.

I feel like you have a lot of good info for a big picture strategy for how to couch your offers in terms that will appeal to his desire to have the image of a perfect life, plus his victim-y tendency to feel like "why do I have to do all the work".

It would take a minute to drill down into specifics, but maybe let those ideas frame the offers/plans you start to put together.

How can you phrase something YOU want, in a way that he feels like he's getting what HE wants.

Um... couple of quick phrasing ideas before I have to go:

could be stuff like "UBPDHelp agrees that Mr UBPDHelp should not bear the totality of financial responsibilities after the creation of two homes for the children, and recognizes that his desire for her to also be a "breadwinner" is fair. Mrs UBPDHelp agrees to [X, Y, and Z]" where X, Y, and Z are things you already wanted to do, except you're framing them as "fair to him".

could also be stuff like "UBPDHelp proposes that to support Mr UBPDHelp's successful work endeavors, she will assume care for Z% of child medical and dental appointments including transportation to and from".

That's all rough draft there, but those points you made about how your stbxH thinks seem really, really important.

Yeah, things might blow up at some time. But you could have a "Plan C" for that in your back pocket while at the present working the angle of "how do I get what the kids need by phrasing things in an agreement that will appeal the preservation of his self image and his desire to be a victim".

Thanks this is really helpful, although a brain twist for me!  So, I think I start with what I want and then figure out how to present it so that it seems it is for his benefit.  Definitely have to give this some thought.

I may need to add the twist of getting him to think it was his idea. That is also a big deal to him. 

Thanks Kelly, lots to think about.

[UBPDHelp]

Kell's points are good -- give him a way to present this as amicable.

For the house, since you want him out but you can't afford to keep the large house, make that clear when you petition that he leave -- wording around you and the children staying in the house pending sale and settlement of the house at which point you buy more appropriate housing for your new circumstances.

Yes.  I look for houses every day. The market is really tough here because people fled the cities (2 MAJOR) around here and so where I live, prices are up and sell within a day or two.  Sort of scary but also know there will be stuff when I’m ready.

The lack of retirement funding is problematic. You should have been able to get a percentage of a 401k of IRA, or he should have been finding an IRA for you. I would talk to a lawyer about how to rectify this via alimony. If the alimony supplements you post-divorce (understanding child support is a separate payment), then part of that alimony needs to be put in an IRA.

It is.  He says he’ll never retire; many Ls work into 70s and 80s (I know 3 personally).  I’ve questioned the big house/mortgage but believed the promises he made for his business taking off. It did, but he always finds something else.

On a reality show he watches, he makes fun of a guy who makes 60k and tells his wife he wants to save for retirement. Says the guys an idiot.

The first L advised I not contribute to my company’s matching 401k because he could claim half. It will be open when I change my mind.  She thought it would be better to pay off credit cards, which I’ve been doing.

As I mentioned, I want to live below my means, try to pay my mortgage in 15 years.  I also think I can put $ away for next 15 years to get some savings.  I also think I could save most of any child support I get and use it for my share of college funding.

I’ve run the budget backwards and forwards and put emergency funds in, too. And this is based on low level alimony, which may be what I end up with.

Make sure your child support agreement specifies college expense payments for the two youngest,has well as medical insurance to age 26.

Yes

Holidays are usually alternated on the actual holiday. For example, each of you might get a week at Christmas, or half the school holiday, with the actual Christmas Day alternating.

Sunset vacations are typically at least two weeks with each parent, uninterripted.

Your H might not want or be able to handle that much parenting time. That gives you some negotiation room.

What else is on your mind?

Thanks GaGrl.  I will share reasonable custody; I pray he takes 80/20.  

I want my kids to have both parents, but less time with whatever mood he is in.

I do have more on my mind.    Will share below.

[UBPDHelp]

I highly recommend you consult with a lawyer to find out what is standard in your state, and what evidence is needed to get a non-standard outcome (if you decide that it's necessary).  Rules about alimony and custody and asset division differ from state to state.

As you make plans going forward, remember that it's not necessary to go to a permanent solution right away.  It's okay to rent for a year and then buy a house.  When I divorced, I bought a small house right away. I wanted stability for my kids.  The week I moved in, I had a date with a guy who I eventually married.  Two years to the week after that, I sold that house so that we could move to a more convenient location for our new blended family.  I would have been *much* better off renting.

Thanks worriedStepmom.  I’m glad you came out in a much better place.

I don’t know that I’ll ever be in another relationship. Clearly I do not have good judgment and I don’t know that I’ll ever trust myself enough to do so. 

I would love to rent while I figure it out, but honestly there are very few rentals and they are 2-3x the cost of a mortgage. Yet, still some benefit to it. Definitely keeping option open.

[UBPDHelp]

Hey confirm a couple things..it may affect the advice you get here.

Your hubby is a lawyer..right?  Has he ever been involved in divorces/divorce law?

Yes he is L.  In his words, scorched earth type.

Yes, he has done some divorces.  Done some complicated agreements.  These divorces have been with clients with millions and multiple houses at stake. NOT the case here.

I think that you don't mention a word to him until you have sorted out your legal team and are ready to go.  Perhaps they will have a recommendation.

I don’t want to, but may not happen. Separate post in this thread forthcoming.

Regarding the house.  How long until your youngest turns 18?

Wouldn't it be nice to have them stay put until then.  Sell the house then and split up proceeds, perhaps some of it goes towards educational expenses.

Many of your questions really need to be answered by your legal team.

You also need to realize that you can get alimony for life if he agrees to it or one year if you agree to it. 

I think what you are really asking is...if this goes to trial and the judge imposes what is "normal" in my state..what will I get?  (and that's a great question to ask)

I'll certainly ask for input from others on the legal board, but I think that most people seem  "most satisfied" when they get a settlement (vice go to trial).  I should say "well written" settlement.

So...it's not good to just have "my ex will do Y".

What you need to have is "my ex will do Y by Z date.  If Y is not done then A begins to happen until B number of days past the time Y gets done."

Read that a couple of times. 

Whatever you want to happen, be specific, then be clear about automatic "remedies" that will happen and continue to happen until all is made right.

Best,

FF

Thanks FF, about 8 years for youngest.

 I would love to stay in the house, but the mortgage is simply too high.

I would prefer a reasonable settlement. I don’t know if it’s possible.

Thanks FF.

[UBPDHelp]

 

I haven’t been on simply because my job keeps me very busy and I’ve spent any free time working on health issues. Getting there.

I’m also late getting call with second L.  And, feeling stuck how to find one who can handle TRUE HCP. And I can’t go calling around because H is a L and it is a small community.

But, I need help. H decided we needed more alone time. Too much kid time. I’m not interested.

He basically told me that he 1) wasn’t giving me his paycheck until there was alone time 2) he may need the money to get an apartment.

He’s trying to talk about making things better but I’ve told him I’m thinking about things and tried to keep him busy.

Anyway, he is holding 3 weeks (may not be full amount) and will not give it to me. It has ramifications of course.

I am tempted to flush this out with a text message innocently asking.  Thinking I can establish that he is withholding money from household, that we have relied on for 20+ years, let’s be honest. I have always made 15-20K minimum even while running house/kids, but average probably 40K from home (new job is more) — just sharing so it’s not like I expected him to do it all, he just makes a lot more.

But, also afraid of opening a can of worms.

We have a big bill we’ve discussed plan to tackle, which included his pay.  He’s tried to get info about my inherited money because he wants to use that. I said no.

Anyway, just want to document that he’s withholding money we have relied on, but not start a war.

Any thoughts?  Any advice.?  Should I just keep a record of what happened and not ask him?

Appreciate any insight. Thank you!

[formflier]

What will this record prove or help you prove?

So...by "alone time" is he saying sex or something else? 

Remember, pwBPD tend to be "simplistic" in their emotional thinking/thinking.

So..."if you are not going to play with me, I'm not going to play with you".

What can be done in order to break this cycle?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

What will this record prove or help you prove?

Idk the legal term or if it qualifies — failure to support?

Bribery of affection, the emotional toll.

I have told him I need time to work through everything going on and have leaned on struggle of pandemic. I don’t struggle there too much really. I worry about health and safety of my family, yes, but I work from home and kids are virtual so risk is reasonably minimal. And I’m exhausted, which now he uses for his excuse from doing things he said he would.

Point?  He does not value my feelings and turns it all into a game.

I am working through my feelings regarding the absolutely nasty, disgusting things he’s said to me, the zero concern for my emotional well-being (he complains we can’t see his family but my parents are dead (he never offered any condolence for my dad, instead he left for four days up and until our anniversary when he called at 8pm and asked me to come to a hotel).  Doesn’t care that I have financial stress and that my job is exhausting. He tells me I can have that life if I want — what option do I have?  Cat and mouse games of whether he’ll come home, whether he’ll continue to provide?

So...by "alone time" is he saying sex or something else?

Mostly sex I would say, but he doesn’t out and out say it. How?

Remember, pwBPD tend to be "simplistic" in their emotional thinking/thinking.

I’ll say maybe. It’s not to be difficult, I just can’t understand his ability to navigate complex legal issues but not be able to see calling me horrible names is not making me feel close AT ALL.

Truth is, we’re too far gone anyway. 

I see pandemic and feel more grateful for my family and he’s called every one of us burdens at least once.

So..."if you are not going to play with me, I'm not going to play with you".

What can be done in order to break this cycle?

Best,

FF

I completely see what you’re saying. But, to be clear, I’ve spent 20+ years trying to “fix” the issue (of course terribly with zero clue WHAT was happening), but I have NOT indulged in tit for tat, ever. And some temptation perhaps but fear of response quelled that.

And, this is not for ME, a tit for tat.  It is really just my emotional well being and health needs more attention. But I am not afforded that opportunity.

That said, if there are any recommendations, I am open to them. 

[formflier]

Well...I would stay away from "fix" or "not fix".

How about "tend to the relationship".  Make a "deposit".  (idea from Gottman)

You are going to have a relationship for many years, regardless of the legal status of your marriage.  I would encourage you to be pragmatic.


So...spend alone time with him and let him be specific about what he wants.

I would encourage you to be specific about what you want financially.

He may choose to beat around the bush and not get what he actually wants (that's his deal, not yours).

Be clear about what you want.

If he wants to make deals...again, clarify.

When it's all done I think it's wise to "memorialize" agreements.

"Hey...thanks for the talk last night.  My understanding is we have agreed to 1...  2...3,  is that your understanding?

Best,

FF

 

[ForeverDad]

I just can’t understand his ability to navigate complex legal issues but not be able to see calling me horrible names is not making me feel close AT ALL.

I will echo an explanation I read here years ago... People with BPD exhibit their traits and behaviors the most with those closest to them.  It is a disorder of relationships and the closer they are, they more evident and impactful the behaviors.  Second, your attempts to explain or logically reason fall on deaf ears because your stbEx can't get past the baggage of the close relationship.

His coworkers and others in his office may be exceedingly reluctant to confirm how badly he has treated them or raged at them or insulted them.  My point in telling this next story is that those coworkers and staff will still have to coexist with your ex after your divorce.  You don't know how cooperatively they would report their dealings with your ex.

I recall in my own divorce that my ex's school (half way through son's kindergarten) told me they had nothing to report in an expected trial because they'd worked out things with her.  We ended up settling and my biggest criteria was that I be the parent responsible for school.  I asked her school to let son remain for the last couple months of the school year.  Well, she couldn't stop acting out there and after one particular shout out with the school officials in the hearing of other classes, they told me I had one day to enroll my son in my school for the final month.  Guess what?  They wrote me a summary of all her incidents over the course of the entire school year.  What they didn't want to reveal earlier they laid out in black and white.  I concluded the change was that before they believed she would remain in charge of school as most mothers do and after I surprised them and was in charge of school and so they could wash their hands of us both, especially her.

Yes, stand firm on the inheritance, it stays as separate accounts, in your name only.  As a lawyer he knows that once it is commingled with marital funds it is no longer separate and ignored by divorce policies.  (Another member here noted that there is a separate item/group that may also be inviolate during divorces and that is trust babies.  Valid prenups might be another.)

[UBPDHelp]

Well...I would stay away from "fix" or "not fix".

How about "tend to the relationship".  Make a "deposit".  (idea from Gottman)

You are going to have a relationship for many years, regardless of the legal status of your marriage.  I would encourage you to be pragmatic.


So...spend alone time with him and let him be specific about what he wants.

I would encourage you to be specific about what you want financially.

He may choose to beat around the bush and not get what he actually wants (that's his deal, not yours).

Be clear about what you want.

If he wants to make deals...again, clarify.

When it's all done I think it's wise to "memorialize" agreements.

"Hey...thanks for the talk last night.  My understanding is we have agreed to 1...  2...3,  is that your understanding?

Best,

FF

Thanks FF.  To be honest, I’m having a hard time with this.

I have made deposit after deposit and have been clear what I wanted. He has made withdrawal after withdrawal and manipulated to get what he wanted. Not to say I haven’t had my share of withdrawals, but not excessive and certainly not by manipulation. He has made some deposits for sure over the years...the burn is that in hindsight I can pin an underlying motive behind most.

And, to be clear, I’m not saying he’s all bad.  He is charming, as we know, and incredibly smart. But it comes with a price, one that I simply can’t pay anymore.

I’m also uncomfortable with the idea of making financial requests and then him making his requests, presumably for intimacy. It feels somewhat like a prostitute...what am I missing?

Just for context of mindset...he will negotiate a complex financial settlement, but when he sees the pumpkins from Halloween by the front door, he tosses them into the front yard, smashing them, rather than walk them 50 ft to the garbage. Annoyance that they are still there 3 days after Halloween. Expectation that I should have thrown them out. Not a word.  Just pumpkins thrown in the yard. It’s not even a situation I can wrap my head around and definitely not one I want to live with.

Options?

[UBPDHelp]

I will echo an explanation I read here years ago... People with BPD exhibit their traits and behaviors the most with those closest to them.  It is a disorder of relationships and the closer they are, they more evident and impactful the behaviors.  Second, your attempts to explain or logically reason fall on deaf ears because your stbEx can't get past the baggage of the close relationship.

His coworkers and others in his office may be exceedingly reluctant to confirm how badly he has treated them or raged at them or insulted them.  My point in telling this next story is that those coworkers and staff will still have to coexist with your ex after your divorce.  You don't know how cooperatively they would report their dealings with your ex.

Good point. I do think he has a line of secretaries who could vouch for his behavior and aren’t employed there anymore. Honestly, his text messages are so awful, it may be enough his desire to not let anyone see those.

They are horrifying to me, 99% untrue, but more than anything think they display how over the edge he is. That’s probably worth keeping quiet on his part.

I don’t want to take advantage of him, I just don’t want to be taken advantage of either — and I’d like the disparity of our income, coupled with me putting any career on hold to be primary child rearer, evened some.  I’ll never be able to regain the time to grow my earning potential and will not be able to maintain anything close to what I have now. I don’t need that, but I don’t want to be in the dumps either. 

I recall in my own divorce that my ex's school (half way through son's kindergarten) told me they had nothing to report in an expected trial because they'd worked out things with her.  We ended up settling and my biggest criteria was that I be the parent responsible for school.  I asked her school to let son remain for the last couple months of the school year.  Well, she couldn't stop acting out there and after one particular shout out with the school officials in the hearing of other classes, they told me I had one day to enroll my son in my school for the final month.  Guess what?  They wrote me a summary of all her incidents over the course of the entire school year.  What they didn't want to reveal earlier they laid out in black and white.  I concluded the change was that before they believed she would remain in charge of school as most mothers do and after I surprised them and was in charge of school and so they could wash their hands of us both, especially her.

I would relish that day. I fear he is so charming, it would never come.

I just want peace.

Yes, stand firm on the inheritance, it stays as separate accounts, in your name only.  As a lawyer he knows that once it is commingled with marital funds it is no longer separate and ignored by divorce policies.  (Another member here noted that there is a separate item/group that may also be inviolate during divorces and that is trust babies.  Valid prenups might be another.)

I had given up on being able to keep separate but your statement got me thinking. The account is solely in my name. When pandemic hit and he couldn’t function, I used some money to pay bills. Is ALL the money commingled now, or is it just that I can never separate the car payment again?

Meaning if I had $10,000 in an account in my name and used $300 to pay the car, is the $9700 still left in my sole account commingled, or just the $300 can’t be recouped?

Can I do anything (legally) to further protect what remains?

Thanks for the help and advice.

[formflier]

presumably 

Please don't presume ANYTHING.

Key points.

You ask for what you want.

If he chooses to be clear...consider his request.  If he is vague or manipulative...consider that.

Communicate...or attempt to.  No mind reading...no presumptions. Do not give any emotional energy to what you BELIEVE he will ask for...or FEAR he will ask for. 

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

Only the money removed from the account becomes commingled.  You can't put it back, as I understand it.

[GaGrl]

Only the money removed from the account becomes commingled.  You can't put it back, as I understand it.

Correct. And if you can document what you removed from your funds to pay bills that he was shirking, that could be helpful documentation.

[formflier]

To be clear, I wasn’t planning to sue him for the money. I simply wanted to know if withholding financial support should be documented and if so, the best way.

This answer is most likely better in this thread.

Right now describing your husbands actions as "withholding support" is dubious at best (although it is possible).

I don't think there is much to do about it at the moment.  Perhaps make sure you have an email chain formally requesting a bill be paid or some such thing.  All the other things are self evident.

There is the date of the bill and the date he paid it, or the fact that it is unpaid.

Anyway, this issue illustrates the importance of a well written divorce settlement.  If he is going to continue to pay bills that impact your life/credit..etc etc, then that language needs to be really tight.

Such as "hubby to pay bills withing 15 days of receipt via (insert trackable/provable communications means)".  Then insert an automatic penalty if it doesn't happen.

Best,

FF

[worriedStepmom]

You haven't filed for divorce yet, right?

In that case, any text messages aren't likely to be great evidence.  The judge will be more interested in what happens after you file - if he's trying to manipulate you, etc, then.

[UBPDHelp]

This answer is most likely better in this thread.

Right now describing your husbands actions as "withholding support" is dubious at best (although it is possible).

I don't think there is much to do about it at the moment.  Perhaps make sure you have an email chain formally requesting a bill be paid or some such thing.  All the other things are self evident.

There is the date of the bill and the date he paid it, or the fact that it is unpaid.

Anyway, this issue illustrates the importance of a well written divorce settlement.  If he is going to continue to pay bills that impact your life/credit..etc etc, then that language needs to be really tight.

Such as "hubby to pay bills withing 15 days of receipt via (insert trackable/provable communications means)".  Then insert an automatic penalty if it doesn't happen.

Best,

FF

As you know, he deposited checks after holding on to them for nearly a month. Since were mostly paycheck to paycheck right now, it definitely impacts finances.

I can respect if he was deciding what to do but if you recall, he didn’t discuss or even say he was thinking about it.

When angry, he did say he wanted it to get his own place but it felt like a childish manipulation/threat. 

Haven’t spoken in a week (his choice, I tried) but today I sent a message to confirm briefly what we agreed to.  I thanked him for two things he did and then gave a status of the bill we discussed confirming agreement to pay it and letting him know the other bills were taken care of.

He replied thanking me for 2 ridiculous things and told me to do what I thought best with the bill. 

This is what he does — puts all responsibility on me.

I assume that is sufficient to proceed with paying the bill (it is sizable)?

No formal separation or divorce filing.

I have separated finances where I can but many won’t be separated until divorce. I am doing what I can to protect my finances.

Thanks FF.

[UBPDHelp]

You haven't filed for divorce yet, right?

In that case, any text messages aren't likely to be great evidence.  The judge will be more interested in what happens after you file - if he's trying to manipulate you, etc, then.

Thanks worriedStepmom. Interesting perspective...I would not have looked at it that way.

Something to consider!

[formflier]

Take him at his word.  Do what you want with the bill.

What if the stuff he thanked you for wasn't ridiculous..to him? 

I would encourage you to go back to Babyducks post.  I think she pointed out that you guys are not a good match financially.

I think trying to adopt that perspective will serve you better than "withholding".

Best,

FF