Told me she wanted me in her life - #2

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Continued from here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=222175.0

Hi Guys,

Thank you so much for the all the posts and all the kind words. I just got off the phone with a friend and she told me the exact same thing. These are just words. In fact, my ex said the same thing when I questioned her about it. They are just words. They hold meaning the moment and I'm sure she felt that way, but as soon as she knew I was on the hook... . Poof. They are gone. Just like that. Gone.

This is what I view as reality... . the way that I think it went down.

1) She misses me at certain times and misses our connection. She is worried I will leave forever and not be there to take her bs. In those times, she reaches out to me. She keeps doing it until she gets a reaction.

2) She says those words to hook me. These aren't normal words to say to someone who has told you to F off. They are words that she knew would hook me. So she said them without any regard for what they would mean to me.

3) Once she knows she has hooked me, she back peddles, like crazy. She puts up walls. She tells me the reasons why she can't be with me. She pushes me away if I show any interest. It is run away time. She is the hurt victim.

4) She then soothes herself by making me to be the bad guy. The person who mistook what she said. The person who must be just so crazy in love with her that he acts all crazy. I'm the weirdo. I'm the freak. Thus, it justifies her behavior and she doesn't have to feel bad about hurting me, constantly. I can't possibly mean what I say. It can't be true. She can't be a hurtful person.

And then, poof. Gone. Knowing I am on the hook. Knowing that she can get me back into her claws. Knowing she can keep me around because something isn't totally right in her relationship and she knows that. So, she has me as the back up. Sitting there. Waiting like an idiot in case things go badly.

That's it. That the game. It is predictable.

What is good: This is more proof that I made the right decision to leave her. This is exactly the kind of thing she would do that made me leave. Exactly. The mind games. The feigned shock that I misinterpreted her. The blaming me for everything that went wrong in our relationship. The judge to all my problems and issues. The warped logic. Her anger that I wouldn't accept her 'gracious' offer of friendship. I should have said: "Thank you oh special one for being so gracious as to offer me, such a lowly, unwell person, such a high gift. A gift that I never asked for. A gift I have refused over and over and over again for a year and a half. I gift that would destroy my house, fill it with excrement, set everything good in my world on fire."

And thanks DiamondSW. Yes. I am 'bigging' her up all the time. What's weird is that the last time I saw her, I was meeting her in a hotel lobby. I walked around trying to find her and I couldn't. The only person that I could see was an middle aged lady checking her phone. Guess who that old lady was? Ha ha. My 36 year old ex. So weird. I seriously thought she was at least 55. And when I hugged her, all I felt was emptiness. Complete emptiness. It's like she wasn't there.

So odd. So very, very, very odd.

My friend told me that I have no alternative but to laugh. Because it is hilarious. Hilariously predictable. Both her and me. It's not like this is the first time this has happened. Same thing. Same response. Same hopes. Same soul crushing devastation. Over and over and over again. I'm glad I could laugh a bit.

Off to eat for the first time in 24 hours.

Thank you all so much. Really. Thank you.

[willy45]

Continued from here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=222175.0

Hi Guys,

Thank you so much for the all the posts and all the kind words. I just got off the phone with a friend and she told me the exact same thing. These are just words. In fact, my ex said the same thing when I questioned her about it. They are just words. They hold meaning the moment and I'm sure she felt that way, but as soon as she knew I was on the hook... . Poof. They are gone. Just like that. Gone.

This is what I view as reality... . the way that I think it went down.

1) She misses me at certain times and misses our connection. She is worried I will leave forever and not be there to take her bs. In those times, she reaches out to me. She keeps doing it until she gets a reaction.

2) She says those words to hook me. These aren't normal words to say to someone who has told you to F off. They are words that she knew would hook me. So she said them without any regard for what they would mean to me.

3) Once she knows she has hooked me, she back peddles, like crazy. She puts up walls. She tells me the reasons why she can't be with me. She pushes me away if I show any interest. It is run away time. She is the hurt victim.

4) She then soothes herself by making me to be the bad guy. The person who mistook what she said. The person who must be just so crazy in love with her that he acts all crazy. I'm the weirdo. I'm the freak. Thus, it justifies her behavior and she doesn't have to feel bad about hurting me, constantly. I can't possibly mean what I say. It can't be true. She can't be a hurtful person.

And then, poof. Gone. Knowing I am on the hook. Knowing that she can get me back into her claws. Knowing she can keep me around because something isn't totally right in her relationship and she knows that. So, she has me as the back up. Sitting there. Waiting like an idiot in case things go badly.

That's it. That the game. It is predictable.

What is good: This is more proof that I made the right decision to leave her. This is exactly the kind of thing she would do that made me leave. Exactly. The mind games. The feigned shock that I misinterpreted her. The blaming me for everything that went wrong in our relationship. The judge to all my problems and issues. The warped logic. Her anger that I wouldn't accept her 'gracious' offer of friendship. I should have said: "Thank you oh special one for being so gracious as to offer me, such a lowly, unwell person, such a high gift. A gift that I never asked for. A gift I have refused over and over and over again for a year and a half. I gift that would destroy my house, fill it with excrement, set everything good in my world on fire."

And thanks DiamondSW. Yes. I am 'bigging' her up all the time. What's weird is that the last time I saw her, I was meeting her in a hotel lobby. I walked around trying to find her and I couldn't. The only person that I could see was an middle aged lady checking her phone. Guess who that old lady was? Ha ha. My 36 year old ex. So weird. I seriously thought she was at least 55. And when I hugged her, all I felt was emptiness. Complete emptiness. It's like she wasn't there.

So odd. So very, very, very odd.

My friend told me that I have no alternative but to laugh. Because it is hilarious. Hilariously predictable. Both her and me. It's not like this is the first time this has happened. Same thing. Same response. Same hopes. Same soul crushing devastation. Over and over and over again. I'm glad I could laugh a bit.

Off to eat for the first time in 24 hours.

Thank you all so much. Really. Thank you.

[Want2know]

3) Once she knows she has hooked me, she back peddles, like crazy. She puts up walls. She tells me the reasons why she can't be with me. She pushes me away if I show any interest. It is run away time. She is the hurt victim.

I've read through this thread and your recent situation and am seeing a bit of a different picture.

Is it possible that you are misreading her cues, and that she really just wants to be friends, or more accurately, not enemies?

I know how much I wanted to think that my ex couldn't live without me.  Is some part of your wanting this to be more than what it really is a way to make you feel better, more valued, like you are right and she was wrong for how your relationship unfolded?

I don't know, Willie... . I think perhaps you need to take this at face value.  Can you keep your emotions out of this and address her as someone you cared about who you may run into on occasion - maybe not friends, but at least cordial acquaintances?

[willy45]

Hi Want2Know.

Yes. I get that angle. And I can see that. But if that was the case, why the big huge drama. The big huge words about being 'BEST FRIENDS IN THE ENTIRE WORLD' and 'I WILL NEVER FIND ANYONE WHO UNDERSTANDS ME LIKE YOU DO'. I mean, these are big words. They aren't the, hey, we've been through a lot, I would really like to be able to catch up once in a while, how would you feel about that. So, I don't think that I'm misreading the situation. I really don't. The last interaction I had with her I told her I was not going to let her take anything more from me. And I hung up the phone. She has been reaching out to me consistently every two or three weeks for months and I've done nothing but ignore.

Yes. I could have misread the cues. Sure. But these aren't the words of someone who is detached. And if this came from anyone else, I would think it was weird. I don't know anyone else that would do this. I've had ex's come back with a short, "hey, how you doing, I was thinking it might be nice to be able to get a coffee once in a while and catch up. Would you be OK with that?" That seems reasonable to me. The big words and grand drama about me being her soul mate and how hard it was to overcome the idea that I was her soul mate and how hard it was for her to come to terms that her soul mate didn't want her. I mean, come on.

This is someone who has been abusive with me. Someone who I've repeatedly told not to contact me. This is not someone who I would run into on the street. We don't live in the same city. We have no reason to interact. I might see her at a work event or something at some point but that is pretty unlikely. And she wouldn't know about it anyways.

So yes. Taking my emotions out of it, I can't see how these aren't just ways to hook me back into her life. I haven't spoken to her in over a year. Does this make me her best friend in the whole world? Certainly not. There was no acknowledgement that I asked her not to call me. All she said was that she didn't want to talk about the past and wanted to move forward in a new relationship with me. It didn't seem to matter to her that it hurt me.

I don't know. Maybe I am making this stuff up. On her end, she said she wants her best friend back and she wants to be able to talk to me and make jokes and talk about business. That is all she wants. She wants to hang out with me. Maybe she can do that. Maybe she is more mature than me. Maybe she is this amazing goddess of forgiveness and understanding. But, I can't buy into that. A person who understands or cares about me would HEAR me say that talking to her hurts me and then apologize. 

And no, I don't think she was trying to get back together with me. That much is totally 100% clear. That was not her intention. But I think that she knows I don't want to talk to her. She knows I get her messages and ignore them. She knows that I asked her to go away and leave me alone. So, WHY CONTACT ME? WHY NOT INVEST IN SOMEONE ELSE? Why would she consider me her 'best friend in the whole world' when I am someone who left her, someone who has told her to f'off?

That is the question. And the only logical explanation that I can see is that she needs me. And I'm not saying that to sound egotistical. I really wish that wasn't the case. If it was the case, maybe our relationship would have worked out. She NEEDS me. And it isn't me. I am talking about the me that stuck around for so long. I withstood the verbal outrage, the emotional outbursts, the moodiness, the depression, the stress. She clearly NEEDS that. Why else would she be seeking out a 'best friend in the whole world'? It doesn't make sense. She just uses these words like they don't mean anything to her. Or maybe they mean something really important in the moment but then afterwards, they don't. But, what I really think, if I analyze it without emotion, is that she uses these words because she KNOWS they will work. They don't mean anything to her. Really. I am her best friend in the whole world? No. We haven't spoken in over a year. We were never friends.

And no, it doesn't make me feel more valued. It makes me feel like ___. It makes me realize again for millionth time that I am just a pawn in her weird and twisted world. I am not special to her. I am just a thing that she can reel and spit out.

And yes. I am reeling. The thought of her with someone else literaly makes me sick to my stomach. Especially because when I thought of it before, the silver lining for me was that she was going to go away. But nope. I get the sick to my stomach feeling and I still have to be on guard.

In short, I think she wants the best of all worlds. She wants me as her 'best friend' and she wants to be with someone else.

Unless I am missing something, what else could there be?

[willy45]

Can anyone else weigh in? I'm certainly open to reality checks.

[LettingGo14]

Unless I am missing something, what else could there be?

Respectfully, I read it differently than Want2Know.  I think she's doing what my ex does.  Her approach was over-the-top. She seems to be soothing herself with other people.  That is, objectifying you.  

The key, in my mind, is that it's not about you, Willy.  It's about her.  She wants to make herself feel better by keeping you hanging around.   By twisting your words.

Here you are questioning your sanity.  Just like many of us do.  But, it's not about what you did or could do or should do.  

Let go of the wheel.  Free yourself.   Be kind to yourself.   Give yourself what you hoped she would give you.  

PS - This is where I find anger useful.  I think of myself triangulated by ex. like she loved to do.  Where she's the victim, someone else is the rescuer, and I'm the persecutor.  It's such BS that it makes me mad, and the anger makes me never ever ever ever want to get on that merry-go-round again.

[Landslide2014]

I wonder, was there any ever evidence of accountability by the BPD? 

[willy45]

Thanks LettingGo. I'm getting there. For sure.

Want2Know, I did misread her cues. That much is certain. 100%. She had no intention of trying to get back together with me. And yes. I did want her to want me back. Why? Not because I really want her back. There's no way. It would be absolute hell and my terror that strikes me every time I open my email or look at my phone is that she has contacted me, and that I slip back. If I'm going to be completely 100% honest, I wanted her to want me to back to validate myself. Validate that I was not wrong for breaking up with her. That she somehow understands what she did wrong. I'm not saying she is 100% to blame. That isn't what this is about. I did PLENTY of terrible things. But what I wanted, for once, was just a validation that the way she treated me was really terrible.

But what I got was another kind validation. She DID treat me terrible. She continues to treat me terrible (I have REPEATEDLY asked her to not call me). She continues to use warped logic on me. She continues to use tools of idealization and devaluation. She continues to blame me 100% for the relationship going array (her words: You were my soulmate and I just didn't understand why my soulmate didn't want to be with me). I mean, come on.

So yes to misreading cues. Yes to wanting her to want me. Yes to wanting to feel validated. And attractive. And desired. Yes.

But I really don't think I'm misunderstanding the MEANING behind her words. What she REALLY means when she says: 'Nobody understands me the way you do', 'Nobody can listen to me the way you do', 'I will never find anyone I can connect to like you'.

And yes. It feels ___ty that she has a boyfriend. Of course it does. This is one of the reasons why I didn't want to know what was going on in her life. Why would I want to know that? What function would I serve in her life if it wasn't for being that chump who just sits around and waits. I even told her that last year when she wanted to be 'best friends'. I told her those words exactly. I told her that it would hurt me too much. That it would tear me to shreds.

So, she doesn't listen me. She doesn't care about me. She only cares about herself. About what she gets out of it. She never even asked me if I wanted to be friends with her. She never even asked me what I thought about it. She just kept saying, I want my friend back, I want to be friends. When I said fine, she then said: Ok, but just don't be mean to me. That was it. Nothing about me. ALL about her. This is not about me. I have plenty of best friends.

[willy45]

Landslide2014,

What do you mean by accountability? Like, hey, I know you asked me not to call and I'm sorry I am doing it? Is that what you mean? Or, do you mean, hey, our relationship was f'ed up, I have been working on understanding my part in it? Or, hey, I'm so sorry that you had to hide from me under the bed, I'm really ashamed of that and I have done XYZ thing to learn about that?

If so, then no. Do you mean something else? Why do you think it matters? I'm curious.

[GreenMango]

Willy i think you are betraying yourself. 

You've agreed to be her friend after her badgering, telling her you can't just be friends, and this is painful for you.   She doesnt see the friendship as inappropriate.   You know it's okay to say No? 

Is there are reason why you agreed to her terms?

[AwakenedOne]

Can anyone else weigh in? I'm certainly open to reality checks.

Being best friends with her seems not very appealing. Do you want from time to time to hear about her romantic life with somebody else? You want to be frustrated and wondering if you guys are going to get together for years while she decides (on her terms)? That will stop you from having a life and being in a holding stage. She is in control that way. Hearing those ":)on't Be Mean" lines and her blame game will be more annoying to you with her as a best friend because you don't get anything out of it. So you really care about if she got a promotion or what movies she's seen lately or whatever? You are here so she possibly has a mental disorder. I would run if I was you. Be glad you didn't get married also. I cant wait for 5 months so I can file for divorce. Relationships are not meant to be such a struggle and have more grief than happiness in my opinion. Either people really care or they don't. Some care about their self only = my wife. Even though my wife left me I could easily be back with her and do whatever she wants of me to do and be together. No thanks. I'm NC 7 months and doing ok overall. Life is supposed to be happy and each person is supposed to matter. I didn't matter to her. I matter to me though. NC for life is my plan.

[Skip]

Willie, I hope you stay around for a while and work through all of this.  You're a year out and really feeling the pain of someone much closer to the break up.

One thing I think you are doing is getting mad at her for not knowing and respecting your triggers and for not helping you heal.  But that is not her responsibility one year out - that's yours.  You have to manage your healing, your vulnerability, your boundaries.

You ended the relationship a year ago.  It's reasonable for her to expect that you have let go of the issues, can understand that she has a boyfriend, and if you are taking calls and agreeing to be a "non-enemy", that you can handle it.

There is a reason she wants to be friends - you're right about that and its a selfish reason (this is true for all of us) - the question is whether it is abusive/one sided and whether you have the ability to sort this out a bit at a time and still protect yourself - and want to.

Willy i think you are betraying yourself.  

I think so too.  You are re-living every injury from the relationship.  Many of us have traveled this road and have held on to the hurt way too long.

She may have be pushing it a bit as you say.  But at the same time, you jumped the gun on this, too - rather than testing the water and moving cautiously, you made a lot of assumptions.  There was boundary busting both ways.

All that said, I know this hurts.  You really want this relationship to heal and it hurts to have that hope dashed.  You still care for her and see great promise in a relationship, but also complexities that always get in the way.

Hang in there, Willy45.  Keep working it.  Be strong.

[Sunny Side]

Can anyone else weigh in? I'm certainly open to reality checks.

Hi willy, what helps me even now is this:

Let's say my uBPDexgf call or texts me tomorrow and says, "You know what Sunny Side, you were right.  I'm sick.  I have BPD, I know it caused a lot of problems in our r/s and a lot of pain and confusion for you.  My T is helping me work through these issues and I want to talk to you about having you back in my life."

Even now, barely out of the fog of our r/s I would differentiate my feelings and try to recall the facts:

Feeling:  I loved her and would do anything for her and she said she feels and would do the same for me.

Fact:  Her word was not reliable and when it was it mostly involved something that serviced a need for her, not me.

Feeling:  Our connection was so intense, so intimate it was one of a kind. I want to feel that way again.

Fact:  Sustained, real-world intimacy is based on trust, consistency, respect, safety and security.  The fact is I never developed real trust for her.  Consistency and respect did not occur with any regularity.  I did not feel safe or secure with her and wondered daily what type of emotional footing we were on.

Feeling:  I'm sure if I just work more on validation, mindfulness, re-examining boundaries, etc., that I will be able to accept her dysregulated moods without compromising my own self and values.

Fact:  Validation was starting to make me feel dishonest, both with myself and with her and I allowed my values to shift on a sliding scale.  She consistently showed little to no regard for my boundaries and when she did it was fleeting.

And the list goes on and on. 

Ask yourself if you can differentiate between your powerful feelings of love, longing and desire to restart with your ex and (as objectively as you can) look at the facts of the behaviors, hers and yours, during your r/s.  Would these behaviors be something you're willing to go back to?  And evaluate from there.

[Landslide2014]

Willy, re: accountability, "yes" to all of the above. Regardless of whether it's evident or not it is my belief that unless there is awareness of any sort on the part of the BPD how can there be any change (for them)?  That's not to say that there may be hope for their change somewhere down the road (however little that may be.) and perhaps when you keep the focus on yourself and you begin to change, the BPD will react. In my opinion, the more insecure my. H becomes.  Rather than take the journey with me, he has chosen to use my healing as an excuse for the uncertain ground.  I'm with Skip, when he points out that this is really about your own growth (in other words). For me, I did need to understand whether or not I could have a relationship with a person who never showed (and may never show) signs of being accountable. First I had to accept that fact and then I was able to use my situation as a reason to become a healthier person. Not an easy road, but as I am beginning to learn, well worth the effort. Keep seeking your own truth and be honest with yourself.  You are worthy. We are all equals.  Remember that you should never feel less than, but you can use that feeling to discover your own worth.

[willy45]

Hi Skip,

Thanks for the note.

I know you are right. I did agree to take the call in that I answered it. And yes, it has been over a year and yes I would have expected her to move on. And honestly, I was feeling fine a week ago. Things were going well. Still some lingering things I was working through but on the whole, I was able to ignore calls, ignore emails, ignore texts. This was after repeatedly telling her not to. I laid down my boundary. Do not call me. I don't want to be your friend. It hurts me when you call me. It hurts me when you text me. It hurts me when you email.

So yes. I let that boundary get broken. I answered the call. And every single thing that happens whenever I do that happened, which is why I laid down that boundary in the first place.

Now, I can be angry at myself for not sticking to my boundary. Sure. But I think it is justified that to be angry as well that she ignored it and continues to ignore it. And that isn't OK. It can't all be my responsibility all the time. I have been responsible for the most part. I have never initiated contact. I have been ignoring and deleting for months and months and months.

The pain I feel is when she contacts me and I accept the call. She is a master of manipulation and she knows how to feed it. Trust me. I spent 6 years with it. She is very smart, very attractive, and very, very manipulative. So when I talked to her and we talked about work stuff, it wasn't just that. It was all the big words and the tugging on my heart strings and the pulling back in that I tried to push back. I kept telling her I can't be friends with her. I don't have those feelings. I can't do it. It hurts me. She didn't seem to care. So, that was my bad for sure. That should have been a warning alarm.

And I kept saying how much it hurts and her only response at the time was 'it doesn't have to be that way, you are my best friend in the whole world and I will never meet anyone who understands me like you do'. It wasn't me initiating that part of the conversation. She asked me why I didn't visit her, why I didn't call her. I told her that I can't just be friends. Over and over again. She didn't seem to care. I would imagine that a normal person would hear that and accept that and say sorry and move on. Not keep badgering me to be friends. So, that is my bad. I can't understand her. It just doesn't seem like normal behavior of someone who actually cares about me.

So, of course I am hurting. And I am so angry at myself for this. I looked for things that weren't there. Of course. But come on. I have repeatedly told her not call. She doesn't care about me at all.

I guess I don't seem to care about me either.

[willy45]

I feel so stupid.

[Paul M]

Me and my ex ended over a phonecall on her birthday days after she told me her dark secrets about her past.

There was room to save the r/s but I had to protect myself and tell her n/c

I haven't spoke to her since (6wks) and I still ruminate and miss her daily. But if she was to call me I could never go back. Bpd or just a nutter I don't know.

You can't trust them

I wish I listened to my gut originally.

My ex took me to mad places in my head I never want to go again.

They turn you crazy

Have the last laugh and deny her the ability to recycle you!

[State85]

Willy45

I can so relate to how you feel. Mine too still wants to be friends, no matter the cost to me. The cost to me is that it stirs up all those emotions again, over and over. For her it is no problem because I don’t think she really cared for me as much as I did her. If she did, she would not have moved to the next r/s so quickly.

I have told her numerous times, I cannot be friends that it hurts too much. Does she care, says she does…but if she really did, she would respect that and maybe just give me some space. I am a runner, she took it up too when we were in the r/s. Once a week she calls or texts wanting to run with me. I tell her no, too painful, leave me alone. Her response is that I should just suck it up and go anyway and help her.

So, it’s all about her….did she really ask how I felt about being friends…no.  She just wants to keep me on her rolodex to fulfill her every need.

[In_n_Out]

Willy, my situation with my dBPDxgf is very similar to yours except that ours has moved beyond the "friends" stage to an inbetween state of Triangulation mixed with lots of idolization yet with little hope or promise of a lasting future together.  My thread is on the "Undecided" board (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=221199.0) and I suspect that you would find many similar words that your ex has said and done in what I have written.

Here's my understanding of where my ex is and what is going on in her mind.  This comes from knowledge that I've gathered here as well as reading several books now about the disorder and also from knowing her, her past and what her unfulfilled dreams are.

She does care about you, but in *her* way.  As with my ex, our R/S ended and she was quickly off with another guy before she had any type of closure.  She was once soothed by you and she is seeking that again, but in a non-committal way.  She doesn't want to let you go (hence "friends" yet she knows in her mind that a R/S with you again would be taking her backwards and once they've moved past a breakup, they would much rather go the path of least resistance with a new guy because it is a clean slate for them.  She does recall the fond memories that you shared but she also deeply remembers the hurt and painful times; who's fault or why they were doesn't matter.  She uses her emotions to remember things.  She doesn't remember the exact details of certain events, only what her emotional state was at the time and when things go bad with a pwBPD and they have rage, hurt, sorrow... . that is the emotion that is tied to the event and thus it is tied to you. That same pattern repeats in every R/S that they enter.  So you are correct, it is *not* about you, it is about *her* in that regard.

What is her "objective"?  Some of it is closure.  Validation of her emotions.  A lot of projection.  She says that she wants to be friends because she is really wanting you to say to her that you want to be friends. She wants validation. She is confused between the black and white, good and bad of your R/S.  She is probably at a point to where my ex is with my replacement; he's confused about her mood swings and she is starting to attach negative emotions to that R/S.  So she looks back to you to fill those gaps.  Almost like she wants to merge the two of you together to make a complete person that "knows and understands her better than any(body) else".  She is very confused and she feels like running again.  My ex tells me this every day now.  She just wants to run and leave town, leave me, leave my replacement and "become a nun".  She is hurting and filled with very mixed emotions.  Yours is too.  That is why you see the pendulum effect with their thoughts, actions and words.  If she is in a period of happy emotion thinking about you, for whatever reason that may be, she will reach out to you and try to capture that happy time because it does soothe her.  But then the pendulum swings (usually when you're right there before her, and pressing her for "solutions" and reassurances that there could be a future together) and she begins to feel the emotional hurt that she felt at certain times with you and she pulls away.  Push/Pull, like a pendulum.  It takes a lot of work to understand and be around a pwBPD.  You have to first gauge their emotional level.  If she is on a "high" with thoughts of you, you can ride that wave and have a great time.  But you have to know that when (not if) that wave crashes, for whatever reason, you will have to work your butt off with validation and understanding and love to eventually get the ride on the next wave.  It's very draining for us non's to understand that and to have the patience to do that work; if that is what we choose to do.  You have that choice right now.  Oh, I do too but mine is not nearly as easy as yours is at this moment.

Your situation is a bit different in that you have pushed her away; told her not to contact you, that you can't be just friends where as I went the friends route and now we are heavily mixed in Triangulation.  I share my time with her and my replacement.  During this recycle/honeymoon phase, I'm getting 90% of her time, but there's still the 10% of her time that is devoted to him and I'd be fooling myself if she was idolizing him while telling me how he "doesn't get her".  I know that my situation is set for failure yet I'm allowing it to happen because when are together, as we were last night, I'm incredibly happy and feel so loved.  I'm riding waves.  But the wave will crash one final time and I have to address that with myself every day.  That it won't last.  She very well may split from my replacement (she has once already) but they will recycle and she will probably have the next guy lined up.  Why? Because they are in the mode of forever seeking validation and understanding.  Mine says "I just want to love and to be loved" and I raise my hand and say "hello... . do you not see me sitting here?". 

Unfortunately for me, I'm sucked in.  Heavy FOG.  You are at a point to where you can exit the FOG and move on entirely by taking the actions necessary to do so.  She doesn't intentionally want to hurt you.  She does still care for you in her way... . because you once soothed her.  She keeps seeking to be soothed by you or whomever she find the soothing from. It seems to me that you can't be a casual acquaintance at this point; you still have feelings for her and she has her kind of feelings for you (which are much different than your feelings for her) and that will lead you to be in a place to where I am at with my ex. 

Good luck with this.  I would highly suggest some reading material on BPD if you do choose to stay the course by being a "friend" (soother) or in any other type of capacity in her life.

[seeking balance]

I did agree to take the call in that I answered it. And yes, it has been over a year and yes I would have expected her to move on.

Willy, she had moved on, she wanted to be friends. 

As much as this is hard right now, it is you that needs to move on -this means really digging into your own feelings so you can grieve.  Without grieving, the thorn that is her will always be just under the surface and will prick you when there is a wrong move.  Grieving will get the thorn out.

So yes. I let that boundary get broken. I answered the call. And every single thing that happens whenever I do that happened, which is why I laid down that boundary in the first place.

Now, I can be angry at myself for not sticking to my boundary.

It's ok -this is a gauge of where you are - nothing more/nothing less.  Beating yourself up is certainly not going to help you any.  Be kind to you right now -you are hurt.

So, of course I am hurting. And I am so angry at myself for this. I looked for things that weren't there. Of course. But come on. I have repeatedly told her not call. She doesn't care about me at all.

I guess I don't seem to care about me either.

So, starting today - care about you.

Honestly, it hurts now - but you got to feeling better before and you will again.  You now know that she is probably someone you need to have a stronger boundary with for your own emotional well-being.

What can you do today that is "healing" a bit for you?  Go for a run?  Beach?  Massage?  Bath? Dinner with a trusted friend?  What can give you a bit of comfort?

[willy45]

Yes. I get that she wants to be friends. I get that. That is loud and clear.

What I don't get is why. What I don't get is how. What I don't get is why she can't hear my NO. It is not like I haven't told her. Over and over and over and over again. I just get ground down. It makes me feel ___ty. I have no interest in being her friend. I am terrified of her. I want her to stop.

And I get it. I need to mourn. I've been mourning for a year now. And whenever I'm finally getting over it, she calls. She texts. She emails. It is not fair.

[willy45]

But what I don't understand is why she would say all those things, like she hasn't been able to get me out of her mind for 3 months, why she would say I'm her soul mate, why she would say any of these things. These aren't what friends say to each other. If she wanted to be friends, why not say: hey, i know you told me not to call but I am wondering if you are in a place where we can be friends yet.

Why not that? Why does she have to be so cruel? What is up with these words? They mean nothing to me. They are just being used to hook me, to hook me back in, to manipulate me into breaking my own boundaries, which I already broke.

I am angry. I am not a zen master. This just isn't OK. I want it to stop. I want the random knocks on my door to go away. I really, really, really want this to end.

I think I may have to change my phone number.

[willy45]

And our parting comments:

Me: Attempting to be friends with you is something that would be very, very hard for me.

Her: Just don't be mean to me.

Then click.

Good lord. I can't take it anymore. I don't want to be in this place anymore. I worked so hard to get out of it. I want out. I can't do another year of this. I was out. I was clear. I was good. I had moved on.

I'm a stupid f'ing idiot for picking up the call. I knew I needed to ignore 'unknown' phone calls. I knew it. I'm a complete idiot. I can't suffer any more. I don't have it in me.

[seeking balance]

What I don't get is why.

Because you meet an emotional need of hers.

What I don't get is how.

Because she can and you cannot.  No magic answer on this.

What I don't get is why she can't hear my NO. It is not like I haven't told her. Over and over and over and over again.

You say no, then you answer the phone - she is a boundary buster - those people are everywhere... . it is up to you to learn how to protect yourself - stop picking up the phone.

I just get ground down. It makes me feel ___ty. I have no interest in being her friend. I am terrified of her. I want her to stop.

She doesn't care - if you want to stop feeling bad, change your number, don't answer her calls - honestly, you are not as much a victim as you may feel.  You do have a bit of power in this, right?

And I get it. I need to mourn. I've been mourning for a year now. And whenever I'm finally getting over it, she calls. She texts. She emails. It is not fair.

If she calls and you are still back to square 1 - you are not done mourning.  It is that simple.  You are holding on to some sort of hope probably and until you get really honest with yourself - you are not being fair to you.

Have you gone to T during this last year?

[In_n_Out]

It's not about her words, it is about *her* emotions.  You don't hear that and thus there's the communication breakdown.  Trust me, that is what caused me and my ex to breakup originally.

Understand that she is having those emotions (missing you, thinking of you, pushing you away, pulling you in) for whatever reasons and let her know that they are *her* emotions and that you understand that she is having those emotions.  *Then* lead in to *your* boundaries and how some things are not acceptable to you.

"It seems that you would be happy to know that we were friends, that my being a friend for you would make you happy.  It's wonderful to have friends and to be happy with those that are friends with you.  On the other hand, I am still hurting from parts of the relationship and I am looking to heal.  I am not rejecting you nor your friendship but perhaps you can understand how being a friend right now with you would be very difficult for me. That is because I have strong feelings about you and our past relationship.  Would you think that it would be a good idea for me to heal from that first and then we can meet some day to talk about whether or not you would still like for me to be a friend for you?".  

Something like that.  Understand her emotions, they are hers as whacked out as you might think that they are, validate them (you understand that she has those emotions - you probably don't agree with them, but you know that she has them and you understand that), reassure her that it is "normal" to have those emotions and then propose possible answers and guide her to make the right choice.  

"Well why can't she just leave and go away when I tell her that I don't want to be her friend?"  Because that is not the point.    The point is, she has these emotions and you are attached to them and she wants validation, understanding and soothing from those emotions.  If you push her way, that invalidates her emotions, feeds her fear of being abandoned and does not soothe her.  "So why does she not just go then?".  Because she is in a push/pull with you and is desperately trying to get that validation before she does go.  Try this approach and see if she doesn't back down.

[GreenMango]

Willy what In n Out wrote above is one possible way to handle this is and a pretty good example of communicating more effectively with a person with BPD.  It also works well everyday folks too.

On the leaving board what we see a lot of is no contact be used as a way of communicating or as a way of emotionally detaching and then members being overwhelmed, anxiety ridden or freaked out when the person calls again or tries to reengage.  It's happened to most of us.   In many cases no contact is a poor substitute for communication and/or detachment.  Ideally no contact is a tool people use to get their feet underneath them when things have gotten to the point they need some space to think clearly.  Usually during that time people find some clarity on their direction ad if they are leaving usually go thru and have to process the end of the relationship.  And if you aren't there yet maybe you need some more time... . thats okay too.  This is what I meant by betraying yourself.  If you can't handle having her in your life that's okay.  It's okay to say no or no not right now.

"It seems that you would be happy to know that we were friends, that my being a friend for you would make you happy.  It's wonderful to have friends and to be happy with those that are friends with you.  On the other hand, I am still hurting from parts of the relationship and I am looking to heal.  I am not rejecting you nor your friendship but perhaps you can understand how being a friend right now with you would be very difficult for me. That is because I have strong feelings about you and our past relationship.  Would you think that it would be a good idea for me to heal from that first and then we can meet some day to talk about whether or not you would still like for me to be a friend for you?". 

   

Doing this is using some of the techniques and lessons from the staying and undecided boards.  Validation and value based boundaries.  What's interesting is it is in the context of the leaving board.  We don't see a lot of this style around here, we see people using no contact like it's a magic wand.  From personal experience it worked for me kind of like it worked for you here.

That statement uses both validation and leaves you room to retain your boundaries around how much this person can come influence your life and ultimately impresses what you will be doing to take care if you first.  At the heart of boundaries is it is what we do in response to things because we can't control what others do.  It's one way to start caring about you more.

I think she does this because she can. At the end if the day it works.  And it works as long as the other person is accepting it.

Which ever way you go from here maybe give yourself some time to sift through what you are feeling and how to handle it.  It's okay to take that if you need it.

[willy45]

Thank you everyone. I mean that. Thank you.

I think for me, no contact is the only way to go. I find her abusive of me. I did go to therapy for 6 months to deal with complex PTSD. I can't be in contact with this person. And, I need to feel like that is OK. I don't need any more friends, especially friends with that kind of baggage. And I don't need friends that are going to hurt me.

I understand the need to focus on me. I get that. I have and I will. But its too much too soon. I am hurting. I am hurting really badly. Why? I will figure that out. And I will get over it. But yes. I need to go no contact again. I need to kill her from my mind and from my life. I don't need to be friends with her. We were never friends. I doubt that will ever happen. I didn't seek it out. I doubt I ever will seek it out. And who cares? Does that make me a bad person? No. Does that make me immature? No. Will it help me detach? Yes. Will it allow me to process these feelings again? Yes. Was it working before? Of course.

Honestly, two weeks ago, I was fine. I wasn't having the time of my life and things were kind of hum drum. But I was fine. I wasn't yearning for her. I wasn't even thinking about her all that much. Every now and again, for sure. But it was a passing thought and it would go away. It didn't have the hold on me it did before. I could hang out with friends. I could be romantic with people. I was moving forward very quickly in my professional life. I had a vision. I had hope. OK. I didn't have everything I wanted in life. Who does. But I was fine, functional, and capable. In fact, the main thoughts that revolved around her were: "Thank God I'm not with her, there is no way I could be with her, thank god I got out, I couldn't stand being with her for more than three days, I could not put up with her neediness, I could not put up with her abuse." So yes. I guess she was still in my head and I was still in the process of letting go and hadn't fully healed. But, I was well on my way compared to 18 months ago.

So, I think right now, I need to go NC. I will probably have to change my phone number. I will do that.

And for right now, for the next couple of weeks, I NEED to focus on her. I need to get my head straight again about her. I need to understand that she has BPD or something of the sort, that there isn't any other explanation for this type of behavior. I don't need to validate her feelings. I don't need to work on figuring out how to do that. I don't want to. Why would I want to spend any energy at all trying to figure out how to deal with her. We have no ties. We have no connections. We don't live in the same city. We don't have any mutual friends (anymore). I have plenty of best friends. I would rather connect with them and spend my time with them.

So, I know this goes against convention and I know it goes against the wisdom on this board. But, I need to rebuild my mental map of her. I need to reconstruct the view of her I had 2 weeks ago. And that view was of someone who was cruel, emotionally stunted, unable to show any kind of insights into her behavior other than blaming me, a person who is incapable of truly caring about me, a person who is sad and miserable, a person who needs to hurt others in order to feel better about themselves. I need to stop tripping myself up by thinking I am wrong about this. I witnessed it. I was the one who was there. I was the one who had to hide under the bed from her. I was the one who got yelled at in public for being 3 minutes late. I am the one who would pick her up while she sat on the curb balling her eyes out because I was stuck in traffic. I am the one who couldn't have an opinion. I was the one who would sit there and watch her flip around emotionally from happy to sad to depressed to anxious to elated to sexy in the span of 2 minutes. I was the one who would get yelled at so badly in the car after flying across the country to see her that I would jump out of it once it stopped moving. I was the one that had to endure her endless requests for me to 'not be mean', and her 'why can't you just be nice to me', and her 'it wasn't what you said it was your tone'.

These were all things that I did not cause. I don't have that power.

And I didn't cause her to call me. I didn't. Just because I responded on occasion to tell her to go away, or to try to explain to her why it hurt me, or because I was curious to know if she changed, or if she was in trouble. These things to do not cause someone to call me. Telling someone to f' off and then ignore them for a year does not cause someone to keep calling me. That is not normal behavior. I'm sorry. It is not. It is neither respectful, nor kind, nor loving, nor an indication that they are capable of being a friend. The cause of this behavior is her BPD or whatever emotionally stunted, sad, and miserable state of being she is in. This has nothing to do with me. This behavior is on the verge of stalking. If anyone ignores my calls or texts or emails, especially if that someone has told me not to in no uncertain terms, then that is predatory behavior and it is not OK. Just because she isn't outside staring out the window, doesn't mean the it is any less creepy or hurtful or harmful.

And I didn't cause her to prey on my triggers. She knows them. We were together long enough. She knows them deeply and she knows them intimately. And she used them right off the bat. Right away. Without warning. I wasn't prepared. I tried to tell her I couldn't be friends with her. I did tell her. But she amped it up a notch. And when that didn't work, she amped it up another notch. And when that didn't work, she amped it up yet another notch. So, no wonder I was confused about her intentions.

And OK. If I am honest with myself, I was hoping to hear: "Hey, I still love you and I'm sorry for how I treated you. I understand how hiding under the bed must have been terrifying to you and how my yelling and screaming must made you feel. I'm sorry and it makes me really sad that I did that. But, I have been getting some help and would like to rebuild some trust with you." And no. This doesn't have anything to do with me wanting to hear from her that it was all her fault. I did tons wrong. But just wanting to hear some validation from her that it wasn't OK and to take her share of the responsibility. I'm perfectly willing to do the 50/50 split thing. But I did not CAUSE her to act this. Many of my actions, like not getting married to her, not willing to move in with her, not willing to make her a part of my family, many of my actions were in REACTION to her scary, erratic, and (now that I have learned post-breakup) emotionally and verbally abusive behavior. They were not the cause. I guess there was a smart person deep down there that was trying to protect myself.

Did I want her back at all costs? No. Do I want back the person that didn't abuse me? Yes. Do I want back the fantasy of her that I have and that she used to project? Of course. Who wouldn't.

Do I need to mourn the loss of a person who never existed? YES. I do. I absolutely do. But first, I need to come to terms once again that this fantasy person did and does not exist. And if anything, I need to mourn the hope that she will. And that makes me incredibly sad.

Am I upset that this new person is getting the best of her right now? Yes. Am I jealous? Yes. Am I hurt? Yes. Am I scared that this relationship will work out and I start thinking that this really was all me, all caused by me like she said? OF COURSE.

But, I will get to those things. I have before. And I will again. I just need to rebuild my mental map again. That is what I am doing here. And I will mourn. And I will be terrified. And I will be scared.

And I will change my phone number. I'll keep you up to date about that.

[woodsposse]

Wow.

you said a mouth full. I know you are un a bad spot. I have been there as well.

what helped me wasn't rebuilding any sense of who she was... . it actually was to come to an acceptance of who she is.

my replacement?  I hope they are happy together. I really do. I lived her enough to want her to be happy. If not with me then with someone else and mostly for herself.

try and think of no contact not just from her not contacting you, but you noy contacting her as well. It may help if you think of all the energy you are putting into something and someone who was never there... . so all this energy is contacting her keeping you stuck.

I know its tough.  But it gets better

[willy45]

Yeah. Thanks Woods Posse,

I get that. I understand what you are saying. But the thing that is making me nuts right now is that I had a solid version of her in my mind two weeks ago. And that was helpful. I am feeling very disoriented right now. I am doubting my perceptions. It is the whole gas-lighting thing all over again. I am in an incredible amount of doubt and I am disoriented. That was such a confusing week and such a confusing conversation. I need to orient. I am not eating and not sleeping. I am in terror of what's to come. I need to orient myself. To do this, I must:

1) Return to my understanding of who she was and how abusive she can be.

2) Accept that my perceptions of what happened to me were real and that her calling me is just another example of her ability to disrespect my boundaries and her power over me.

3) Return to a place where I am functional again in my life.

4) Mourn

5) Work more on shoring up my boundaries (which is tied into accepting my perspective as real)

I guess that's my thinking. I know the longer term game. I get that. I'm talking the next week. I need to get through this week. And I need to return to some kind of equilibrium. Once there, I can start all this other stuff. Right now, it is too overwhelming.

[Cardinals in Flight]

Willy, I've read your entire thread, (longest in ages!), and there is not one thing that I myself have not thought, not one thing that doesn't resonate with me in some way!  I totally get where you're coming from!  I did try the friends thing, it does not work.  I tried validation,and I grew weary of never being heard.

It's completely understandable in my mind that you're in this place after what you've experienced.  Follow through with your agenda and be kind to yourself, I'm really admiring how you've lined this up.

All the best.

CiF

[willy45]

That is what my ex told me on the phone a couple of weeks ago. She misses me like crazy. That pretty much sums it up. Missing me like a crazy person. And me too. Just the sound of her voice and I miss her like crazy too. Like an absolute crazy person. Because how could I actually miss someone who abused me for so long.