How to Cope with Codependent Rage

[RolandOfEld]

Hi all,

Not long after I discovered my wife's BPD and the board I also discovered that I was codependent in most of my relationships. Since then I have had a few near breakdowns, which I had originally attributed completely to the stress of coping with a BPD wife, raising 2 young children, and living in a foreign country. Now I am realizing how much of my state is related to all of the anger I have swallowed and suppressed over the years.

These days every cell of my body and mind feels saturated with anger and frustration. It takes very little to provoke a reaction from me. I snap at my wife from time to time, but it is worse with S5. He is a sweet child but very naughty and provocative sometimes, and I end up taking out anger towards my wife on him too often. I can't tolerate this in myself.  

I became more aware of my anger recently after confiding about my wife's illness with my aunt, who has become a wonderful and loving support. She talked to me about how she built up a ton of rage taking care of my uncle and my cousin, who both have Tourettes, because she knew they were sick and couldn't let herself express anger towards them. A few years ago she saw a counselor who let her express her anger in their sessions and she said it was like cleaning out her soul. I am planning a session with my T where I can hopefully do the same. I suspect I also have anger for my BPDish mother who died before I could genuinely express my anger.

So I am opening this thread for anyone who is trying to cope with anger, codependent or otherwise. Besides therapy, I would very much like to hear the stories of others as to how they deal with anger in a BPD relationship where the other person is incapable of listening to our feelings about their behavior. Thank you.  

~RolandOfEld

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[Enabler]

Hey ROE,

YES YES YES YES

I have found that one of the most significant steps I have taken regarding the mal-direction (just made that word up) of anger/frustration towards my kids is being able to OBSERVE YOURSELF. I observed a couple of things:

1) Occasions where I was emotionally dysregulated because of things my wife had done which meant that my tolerance for kids doing kid things was less. My reaction (rather than response) was greater and disproportionate to the kids behaviour and I actually perpetuated the kids bad behaviour by escalating the situation, fueling the fire and NOT behaving in an adult way. remember pwBPD do not have a monopoly on emotional dysregulation, it happens to us all when we reach the point of overflow.

2) As part of being an emotional caretaker of my wife I reacted disproportionally to child-like behaviour. Children are stressful and they naturally generate stress with their naturally chaotic behaviour. I naturally do not like chaos. For me, chaos = unhappy wife... .unhappy wife = pain in my direction. I was preventing my children acting in a childish way, flourishing as children because it came into direct conflict with my aim to make wife happy by managing her environment/stressors.

What did I conclude from my observations:

1) Being angry/frustrated with kids when kids are not responsible for my discomfort will result in their confusion and possibly physiological damage. Children who cannot associate cause and effect i.e. their behaviour with my anger/frustration will ultimately blame themselves and possibly develop PD's when they are older... .and that will be my fault.

2) I should have a relationship with my kids independently of my relationship with my W. The 2 relationships are not linked.

3) I cannot and shouldn't protect my W from the normal course of chaos associated with children. Children are children and behave like children. They are not adults and I should not treat them as adults capable of adult cognition... .learn about child development and child emotional development.

4) Learn to living with chaos... .sit with the uncomfortableness, it will pass. Observe OCD behaviours like cleaning and tidying.

5) Sometimes it's better to walk away from a child or ask for help when you know you are on a knife-edge. Observe the physical signs, tightening chest, headache, shaking hands. sore eyes, aching legs. Observe the emotional signs. It's better to take yourself out the equation than do something you might regret or something that could cause long term damage to the kids.

6) If you are running into conflict with kids regularly you may have your boundaries to tight... .or you are not consistent with YOUR boundaries and rules. YOU can have rules and boundaries INDEPENDENTLY from your wife and the kids will judge you INDEPENDENTLY from her.

Read up on Authoritative, Authoritarian and Passive parenting and Ju-Jitsu parenting.   

[pearlsw]

Hey ROE,

It's been awhile!   My   goes out to you! I'm hoping to be back around more again and catch up with folks. Interesting thread you've started here.

Anger is a strange emotion for me. I never quite know what to do with it. I really don't like being angry, I can't stand that out of control feeling. I can sure be grouchy lately though, but I see and call myself on it.  At times I've gone for it and just spoken lately when I would have otherwise hesitated. I got lucky. Sometimes my SO could handle it. When I could tell he couldn't I'd stop myself and let it be enough that I said anything I was really thinking.

I've started up daily meditation this month (Meditation May I'm calling it to remind myself) to regain patience which I tie to anger. I notice when I can slow my reactions I won't get so stirred up and can laugh more stuff off. But in a way I'm lucky - that I have even that space to get laughs and jokes going, or can carve out that space. I know many here often don't have that opportunity.

with compassion, pearl.  

p.s. Enabler what a helpful/insightful reply! 

[Radcliff]

I have been dealing with quite a bit of anger as well.  You are right, that when expressing anger is forbidden by the people we are with or by circumstances, it can do a lot of damage.  When it finally becomes safe to express the anger, it can be tough to find it and get it out.

Therapy is excellent.  Exercise when you are angry is good to level yourself out.  I particularly like what Enabler said about observing.  This is a mindfulness practice.  Mindfulness is practiced in many places, and also is one of the four cornerstones of DBT.  It helps with emotional regulation, another DBT cornerstone.  Basically, the idea is to observe without judging.  Recently, I've been so angry with my wife that I couldn't see straight, but simply observing this, and reminding myself that I'm with a child who should not see that anger, has helped me.  I'll use other tools at the same time, like taking a break from the child to catch my breath, then coming back quickly, etc.

My therapist has been saying that trauma is cumulative, and I wonder if that might apply to anger as well.  She says that clearing out and dealing with traumas from childhood can help reduce your overall burden and improve your ability to handle the traumas of today.  Perhaps dealing with unresolved anger from the past with your therapist's help would help you today.

WW

[I Am Redeemed]

My therapist has been saying that trauma is cumulative, and I wonder if that might apply to anger as well.  She says that clearing out and dealing with traumas from childhood can help reduce your overall burden and improve your ability to handle the traumas of today.  Perhaps dealing with unresolved anger from the past with your therapist's help would help you today.

WW

I definitely think this is true. Pent-up anger can build up like sewage in a septic tank, and eventually it will leak out. For me it comes out during times when I am feeling stressed, frustrated and overwhelmed and then I have to deal with something totally normal like a screaming two year old who is throwing toy trucks for the 957th time today. Anxiety also plays a big part in anger and losing my temper. I believe my dad suffered from anxiety for years before he was actually diagnosed with it (in his eighties) because I remember him losing his temper and yelling a lot as a kid. Looking back now, I believe his behavior was anxiety-related.

Losing my patience with S2 is the hardest for me to accept about myself and be honest about with myself. It is also the most pressing thing I want to change immediately. It is not S2's fault that he is a toddler and does things that are frustrating but completely normal to do for a two year old. I do not want to take out my unresolved anger on him. It is cruel and unfair and could possibly cause him damage psychologically and I do not want that for him. So I am working on dealing with the aftermath of trauma and abuse in therapy.

I agree with the walking away rule if you feel you are too stressed to respond to the child in a calm manner. i also have to take a step back and figure out why I am getting so upset over certain behaviors. Messes tend to be a trigger for me. I feel the urgent need to clean them up right away and I usually do not feel like cleaning anything so I get frustrated. I have tried to learn to not be so uptight or feel so pressured to clean something up immediately. I think that may be an after-effect from uBPDh complaining about my housecleaning and calling me lazy. I nearly killed myself when I was pregnant trying to live up to his impossible standards.

Writing in a journal can be very cathartic for anger. If you can't express anger to the person you are angry with, and you don't have a therapist appointment that day, write in a journal. It helps to get the angry feelings out of your head.

thanks for starting this thread, ROE.

Blessings to you and your family,

Redeemed

[Turkish]

Kids at this age can be maddening even if we love them to pieces,  as I do D6 and S8 (with ASD1). Since they were old enough to be like "real people" I've been mindful of not being like my BPD mother.  I was often sent to school in tears, not understanding how I triggered my mother.  D6 gave me an attitude this morning trying to get her ready for school.  A lot of this is normal at these ages.

How are do you feel that you are taking your anger out on him,

[Enabler]

Morning funsters, I'm in a chipper mood because the sun is back in London again today... .whoop. Couple of things I have thought of:

- I observed that I adopted other peoples moods... .as though they were infectious. I believe this stems from control issues of a sort. I wanted everyone (well the people in my close family whom I care about and believe are in my zone of influence) to be happy. When they are not happy I see it as 'my fault', and this would cause anxiety in me to build. The remedy for this was accepting that just because someone else is angry or upset, doesn't mean I have to be. This is especially relevant with the kids. I felt my anxiety rise when they were throwing their toys out the pram even when it didn't have anything to do with me or was completely out of my control. Standing back and internally chuckling to yourself is of great help. As the kids become older and more gobby it's easy to look at them as more adult than they are. Accepting that they are still emotional children even if they say adult things allows you to stay internally calm whilst a whirlwind is going on around you.

- Although I don't buy into all the things mindfulness teaches, I do feel that being aware of your environment is of great help sometimes. Sucking in a good glug of fresh air, what can you smell, what sounds can you hear, how does the sun feel on your face. It gives you those few seconds or minutes of letting all the other stuff just wash over you.

I have said this before but I will say it again. For me emotions are like a pint glass... .take a pint glass and put it in the sink... .take a large jug of water and start tipping it in bit by bit. Each bit is stress, a trigger, unhappiness, fear. When you get to the very very top... .you're still in control. That next bit is when you start shouting, or dysregulating. You can no longer hold all the stressors in and your emotions have to flow. As these stresses diminish the water level reduces till maybe we get to and empty glass (totally chillaxed). For many of us and arguably all of our pwBPD there is a large volume of water in the glass that is there permanently, it's almost a constant, for a pwBPD it could be childhood trauma, for us it could be the constant stress of living with a pwBPD and the guilt and shame that has been placed on us. It means we're that much closer to the top of the glass... .closer to the point where we dysregulate. My feeling is that even just educating ourselves about BPD, understand that we can let go of guilt and shame, understand the chaos, it lowers that permanent block of liquid that keeps us soo near the top, ready to overflow.

[RolandOfEld]

Wow, thanks everyone for your tremendous response!

For many of us and arguably all of our pwBPD there is a large volume of water in the glass that is there permanently, it's almost a constant, for a pwBPD it could be childhood trauma, for us it could be the constant stress of living with a pwBPD and the guilt and shame that has been placed on us. It means we're that much closer to the top of the glass... .closer to the point where we dysregulate. My feeling is that even just educating ourselves about BPD, understand that we can let go of guilt and shame, understand the chaos, it lowers that permanent block of liquid that keeps us soo near the top, ready to overflow.

My therapist has been saying that trauma is cumulative, and I wonder if that might apply to anger as well.

Enabler and WW I really like the water analogy and the idea of anger as cumulative. I used to think I was reacting to today's dysfunction, but now I think I am reacting to a much deeper narrative of guilt and manipulation that goes all the way back to the beginning of our relationship and even beyond that to my mother. This anger is harder to "find" as WW mentioned.

Turkish the anger at its worst takes the form of yelling at my son and often gripping him hard (I think maybe too hard) on the arms to try and make him calm down and listen. Yesterday while I was bathing D2 he dipped his foot in paint and ran around the house (after I yelled at him not to do this two days ago). When I yelled at him about it he just laughed. I felt like Batman with the Joker in the interrogation scene from the Dark Knight. These are the times when it gets out of control. I eventually went into the bedroom and calmed myself down.

Redeemed I tried the journaling starting today and I think it will help to get that stuff out of my head and onto paper in the real world. Pearls I really like the idea of slowing my reaction.

~ROE

[Enabler]

ROE, you taken some pretty big and brave steps there in that last post... .well done. No, it's not awesome parenting, but you know that already. What is awesome is making yourself accountable, to us at least, and to yourself. Well done.

Using the paint incident as a live example:

- This is enough to make anyone hit the roof, willful destruction of your family home is intollerable
- Whatever you did before, didn't work. It either got the reaction/attention your son was looking for (attention is not necessarily defined as good or bad (not dissimilar to a pwBPD), or he didn't feel the negative consequences of his actions.
- What were the physical sensations you felt when you were getting angry, and knew you were too angry?
- What personal rules can you put in place to stop you doing what you know you are capable of (holding your son too tight)?
- what can you do differently?

Enabler

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Enabler, physical reactions include feeling of acid reflux in chest and throat, shaking hands, and most notably pressure in head. I think any one of these is a good enough cue to leave the room and the mess for now and not try to parent in that moment. Let's make that rule number 1 and what I can do differently starting TODAY.

Another thing I have to admit here is that I feel like I've put being a good, intentional parent on the backburner for a day where I feel like I'm not loosing my mind because of my wife's situation. I've intentionally put myself into a 24/7 panic mode and I've to some degree excused myself from being a decent parent as long as they are bathed, fed, and safe. Self compassion is important, but I may have edged into the realm of throwing a non-stop pity party for myself. I have awesome kids, I'm starting an exciting new job next month, the accapella class I joined will start soon, my family knows about my situation and supports me, my wife has made overtures towards trying DBT, and stress-related ailments aside, I'm in great physical condition for someone closer to 40 than 30. If I can't have a happy marriage right now, I can to some degree have a happy parenting life. I'm over the moon about D2 and how adorably sweet she is when not throwing a tantrum, and S5 has the makings of an artist or an architect.      

It's time to remember positivity isn't dead because my wife has BPD. I'm not dead either. 

~ROE

[RolandOfEld]

Let me add that like Enabler wrote about, a lot of my way of interacting with the kids is influenced by my wife's presence. It doesn't look good for me to leave the room because I'm losing my temper, because after all I just take care of them a few hours a day / weekends and my job is to drink martinis and surf YouTube all day, so what have I got to be stressed / angry about? You can't tell someone you're stressed because you never know when the next explosion is coming and that the explosions often necessitate going to the police department or buying new clothes. I feel pressured to maintain an image of emotional health.

But when it comes down to it, what is better parenting: trying to resolve the issue and losing my temper, or walking away so I get myself calm and don't scare the kids?   

[Enabler]

Morning ROE,

Sounds spot on with regards to the physical signs. Regarding the pressure in your head, am I right in saying that you get a pressure behind your eyes which makes them feel blured and sometimes you get a feeling in your ears which feels a little bit like they're going to pop and slight zinging sound. This is what I have defined as anxiety... .I've never been told professionally but clearly it's a sign of serious stress as the 2 are very correlated. When stress got very very bad last year due to divorce threats and general life trauma, I would sit at work and feel my buttocks zing or vibrate... .much like a phone going off... .in fact I was checking my pockets thinking my phone was going off. Googled it and it turns out it's cortisone, the fight or flight hormone. fine if you're chasing an animal in the savana, not so great when you're sitting at a desk in London not running anywhere with primed buttocks and upper legs. So... .that's anxiety. 

Re the kids. It would be good to find a happy medium of zoning out and observing yourself, saying to yourself "this is not my anxiety, I have no reason to be afraid and no reason to be angry", sit with the feelings for a bit and assess the situation... .say nothing and potentially if safety allows... .DO NOTHING BUT OBSERVE YOURSELF AND OTHERS. Rather than try and correct the chaos by pushing against it, which is stressful and likely to result in you becoming more stressed and part of the problem, use the power of the chaos against itself.

e.g. Child won't get ready for bed. Say clearly to them whilst sitting on the floor (non-threatening stance and at their level), "I expect you to get ready for bed now, that is a reasonable request, I am not going to scream and shout at you as I don't want to do that anymore. I am here to help you if you need it". No threats, no drama, just sit there and allow them to cause chaos if they want. Keep doing this, it will take some time but just stay. They will learn you don't play the games, you don't give them any attention. When they eventually get ready, which they will... .give them all the cuddles and be super super playful. Reward co-operation.

Another one, when you are discussing a kids bad behaviour, sit them on the stairs, you sit at the bottom. Put them in the power position. Discipline isn't about power, it isn't about control, it's about correcting and making a child accountable for their behaviour which is outside normal acceptable standards for your house. Don't make it about being threatening, you are an adult, you're bigger than them, it shouldn't be about that.

Leaving the room should be the last option, but it is an option and far far better than losing it in front of the kids or your W... .because ultimately all the above parties will only remember YOUR behaviour, rather than their own.

[Radcliff]

ROE,

I learned in a parenting class that root causes of a child's misbehavior can be seeking power, seeking attention, seeking revenge, or demonstrating inadequacy.  If you think it's power, you try to head things off at the pass by giving healthy choices, and they have control by picking between the choices.  If you think it's attention, you make sure you're giving them enough attention (goes back to the neutral to positive observation thing from the Glasser book, "Transforming the Difficult Child."  Can you proactively get your son involved in an activity prior to D2's bath time?  Do you think S6 wishes you were giving him attention rather than D2?

B.t.w., D2 is going to get even cuter.  3 and 4 are terrific ages.

WW

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Enabler, no to the eye pressure, but big yes to the vibrating feeling, though in my thigh.

I did mostly better with the kids this weekend using everyone's advice. Not perfect, but better than usual. Left the room, used Wisemind, and asked myself the question of what was more important in the moment, implementing discipline (in a bad and hurtful way) or getting through the incident without scaring anybody.

But then it all poured out on my wife Sunday night before bed (unrelated, I have noticed that most major dysregulation episodes happen Sunday evening around dinner or Sunday nights). The upstairs neighbors were making a racket again, which often prompts an argument about why I don't do anything about it. I snapped at her. Explained how stressed out I got when she was angry because I have no idea what she'll do. And how her problems with the neighbor stress me out because half the time she wants me to go up and say something and half the time says don't bother they won't change. Anyway I lost it. At one point said my anger was overflowing and pulled at my hair. She got up and left the room and slammed the door. In that moment I felt all the anger I had stored up inside and all the things I wanted to say. I went back into the bedroom where she was lying with S5 and said I wanted her to come out so I could talk to her,  said there are things I wanted to say and I needed her to listen and I didn't want to say them around S5. She didn't come out.

I know I did everything you shouldn't do to someone with BPD. I went outside by myself. I was in tears. I was losing it. I felt every word I wanted to say to her. How she hurt me. I loved her but she hurt me. Said terrible things to me. Hurt my relationships with my family. Stole my things, destroyed my things. Made me come close to losing my job when I'm trying to support a family of 4! That one hurts the most.  

Add that it's so painfully humid in this country. I was exhausted from a day of carrying the kids around outside in this heat and probably semi-heat stroked. I wanted to sleep but D2 kept getting up over and over again after her diaper leaked in the bed. Again and again wanting me to read her a story. Until close to 2 am. Got up early for work.

I'm getting worked up just writing this. I was supposed to see my T for the first time in person last week and hopefully work to get some of this anger out but my wife accidentally locked herself out with the kids before my appointment and I had to run home with the keys and cancel. It's rescheduled for tomorrow. I'm angry at her for forgetting the keys and taking away my chance to help myself. I've been journaling my anger like some of your suggested but I wish I could do so in the moment. I just want to be heard. Telling someone the things they did to hurt you when they are absolutely unwilling to listen and will just interrupt or use sarcasm instead of listen to you only makes it worse.

Sorry for the rant but I needed to get some of this out.

~ROE

[Enabler]

Hey buddy, sounds tough. What would you have said to your wife in a short concise way, a way that given your knowledge of BPD she would grasp and be compelled to self reflect on the pain she has caused you?

Also, when you talk about about trying with your son and not disciplining him, it sounds like you think it’s atill right to want to bring him into line? Now I’m not saying you’re wrong and he shouldn’t be disciplined, but have you considered there’s another way? Or more to the point, have you considered the world in his perspective and actually, he doesn’t want your blueprint for him and he wants to do something else... .and he kinda has every right to feel like that.  How can you marry what he wants, or doesn’t want with what you want and how to encourage him to want what you want rather than tell him?

[RolandOfEld]

Enabler, I would tell her I love her and I know she doesn't want to do the things she does sometimes. But I need her to know that they have hurt me deeply and I can't just make the pain go away even though I wish I could. I know I am not a perfect husband, and I am not innocent. But I have done my best and I did not deserve those things. I thought it was all my fault then so I didn't do anything about it, and now I have this anger. That part is on me and I am doing something about it. I hope for her side she can make the effort to do something about her side of things.

Funny how much the way we word things shows how we are really thinking: "disciplining". What I should really be sayings is "responding". When S5 smacks D2 for accidentally knocking over his blocks, that's a situation you have to "respond" to, whether it's giving him a time out or talking to him to understand why he's angry. But I tend to go for option A. All your advice is right on the money.

I lost my temper at my son outside the other week because no matter how many times I told him to stop running away from us down the street he kept doing it and laughing. It made me feel useless, weak, and like a joke. My wife saw how I was loosing it and was actually very compassionate about the whole thing, saying he's just being a kid and does that to her too and that he's not trying to make me feel like a joke.  

But here's the flipside narrative when she's in dysregulating mode: the kids acting out is all my fault because they don't respect me like they respect her.  They don't do these things when it's her taking care of them. I can't control them. I don't do anything.

So a big part of the reason I get the way I do when he acts out is I hear her voice in my head saying all this stuff about how useless I am. Again, my responsibility to deal with these thoughts and emotions, not hers, but it sure heaps on the anger and pressure when I think of how she talks to me sometimes to get me in this headspace.

Last night she was in silent treatment mode from the previous night's argument. Disappeared into the bedroom shortly after I got home, leaving me with two hot and exhausted kiddies to feed, bathe, play with, and get to sleep. I did pretty OK. It was total chaos and non stop screaming, but I didn't lose it because I didn't pressure myself by trying to do everything perfectly or to show her how I'm super Dad and can control the chaos.  

~ROE

[Radcliff]

Roland,

I totally understand the feeling of having your wife's voice inside your head ridiculing you, and of feeling powerless and inadequate and being triggered by the challenges of parenting under those conditions.  Been there.  Your wife is able to support you intermittently, which in a way may be worse than not supporting you at all.  You are going to need to let go of counting on your wife to back you up.  You shouldn't have to do this, but it's an unfortunate fact of your situation.  That's a good topic to work with your therapist on.  Accept her support when it is offered, but build resilience and skills in yourself to never count on it.  This will make it easier to avoid your compulsion to try pulling support out of her sometimes.

Turning things around, it's important for you to look at the things that are going right.  Build your confidence.  Look for "islands of competence" and expand them.  That interaction with D2 might be a great place to start.  I remember sitting cross-legged in D13's room when she was 2, reading to her every night.  It was my calm port in a storm.  That was just 20 minutes a day, but I drew strength and sustenance from that interaction.  I felt like a good, loving, strong dad.

Have you had a chance to read that "Transforming the Difficult Child" book yet?  I think that might help with your son, and it will boost your confidence.

You are making a lot of progress.  Continue to work on building your parenting tools and your confidence.

WW

[RolandOfEld]

WW, I love your idea of "islands of competence." There's a beautiful such moment every night right after D2 goes to sleep. We turn off most of the lights in the apartment, my wife and I go to shower, and my son goes into the playroom and plays with his cars and trains. There is no noise in the house, just S5 making car sounds while he pushes his toys around. You can tell this for him is the child equivalent of sitting down on the couch and watching some Netflix at the end of a long day. He is pure contentment and is fine to be alone. When I have time, I sit down next to him and play with him. This is where I feel most like a dad every day.

Thank you to you and Enabler for the parenting advice instead of just focusing on the psychological issues. I need to be reminded that among all this I can still be a good dad.

~ROE 

[Radcliff]

Roland,

I appreciated your description of that end of day tradition!  Focus on those calm moments, burn them into your memory, draw strength from them, and try to expand from there.  Keep us posted!

WW

[Notgoneyet]

 ROE,
 Very interesting tread you started here & SO MANY great ideas & responses . Anger & Codependent Rage has been a Common topic of our marriage C for several yrs now (uBPDw & myself). I just thought I might throw in my 2cents since no one else mentioned it. The  Anger Iceberg-           (https://binged.it/2rvOu3h.) If this doesn't take you to it ,just Google  Anger Iceberg.
 Still hard for me to realize how many hidden emotions (below the surface) can actually come to the surface as Anger & Rage. Feelings like loneliness, trapped, helplessness can come out as Anger. 
  Thanks for starting this ,very insightful stuff
  NGY

[Enabler]

I agree NGY, this is a very good thread. The impacts of living in a chaotic environment are far reaching... .add the chaos of children and it can distill all the emotional intensity we're experiencing in the relationship and open cracks up into gaping great wounds.

ROE, I too agree with WW on his 'islands of competence'. It's good to focus on what is working, and then you can see how you can adapt that to areas where things aren't going so well. Children change, what's working now might not work specifically in the future BUT, what is good to develop is an ability to be adaptive... .very might like your W, having a range of tools and thought processes allowing you to select the correct tool for the correct situation. Reading your point about your son running off and your wife's response I remembered a realisation I had some months back... .I thought as a parent I knew what was best for my kids, I thought they understood, or should understand that when I asked them not to run away they should/would understand that I was acting in their best interests, but your son has his own mind and in his world thinks he's totally fine. When it comes down to it, it's about control... .you want to control him as it reduces your anxiety about him getting hurt, and he wants to be in control of himself and do what he wants to do. Again, you have to make him want what you want, or accept that he wants something different. S5 is exploring and venturing further and further... .that's a good thing for him. He's not thinking about you at all and it's very unlikely to be a defiance directed at you. What happens if you don't call him back? My guess is he gets to a point and stops. Have you tried hiding from him?

On a personal level, most fathers rarely evaluate their own parenting behavior. You are. Whether or not you are/were a good Dad (I suspect you are a good Dad, or certainly better than average), you are on the road to being an awesome Dad.

Ever thought of playing cars with your son when he's in his room on his own? There's nothing better than getting on their level and giving them 1 on 1 time... .something he may appreciate especially given he has to share you with D2 in the daytime.

Keep up the strong and powerful work

[RolandOfEld]

Thank you NGY, I had a look at the infographic and the article that goes with it and this was a big insight for me. I believe that the primary emotions running beneath my anger towards my wife are hurt, humiliation, feeling misunderstood and unappreciated, and unfairness. With my son it's different - I think it's more anger towards myself for feeling like a failure, anger / frustration towards my wife for creating an unstable home environment, and also some much more deep seated feelings of feeling helpless and humiliated as a child. I would be very interested to hear more about your codependent anger and how you have coped with it.

Enabler I think the more we understand, the more space we create to take control in the moment. Thank you for reminding me of what I'm doing right.

I'm also beginning to appreciate the regenerative power of a few moments of mindfulness per day.

Interesting development, uBPDw's latest episode came to very quick halt yesterday after I apologized for something within my range of tolerance for apologizing, to which she just answered "Apology accepted". That is a rare one. Later that night we had a rather deep conversation about our relationship spurred by my description of an abusive former client who I said "must have a personality disorder". Maybe subconsciously I said it on purpose because my wife said I had more or less described her. This morning she messaged saying that it deeply hurt her to hear me describe my client that way because I didn't hold back the way I would if describing her. But she said she didn't blame me and she knew she was a "pain in the ***".

She has certainly shown a little growth recently and I think yesterday's conversation sets a good tone for tomorrow's evaluation with the doctor in charge of the DBT program. I honestly don't know about the future of our relationship as a married couple, but the work we do now could certainly better facilitate a smoother separation / coparenting situation later if that's where we go. This is a better place to be than on the knife's edge of getting a restraining order and trying to take the kids away like I was a few months earlier. Thank you to WW for offering me a different possibility at that time.

~ROE

[Enabler]

Enabler I think the more we understand, the more space we create to take control in the moment.

I'm also finding the more I understand the less compunction I have to take control, and more compunction I have to allow the natural consequences of someones chaotic to be felt by the cause of the chaos. The more I understand the more mental space I can generate to control my own emotional response and therefore my own physical and verbal response to a situation. This is a self feeding process in a similar way to the negative spiral of being reactive. The more space you generate in situation A, the quicker your recovery, greater your confidence and superior your clarity in the aftermath, which means you have even more mental dexterity for situation B... .C... .D... .E.

In much the same way that pwBPD have a tenancy to enter negative emotional cycles due to maladapted coping mechanisms which temporarily relieve the mental pain, but further guilt and shame in the aftermath of a mental stimulus (requiring further emotional numbing and further maladapted coping mechanisms... .), we can can enter the same negative cycles by carrying the guilt and shame from our reaction to a previous incident into the next incident. The cycle can be broken and a positive climbing out the proverbial hole can be achieved. One must obviously avoid confirmation bias, but in each situation you learn, you learn a better response and greater clarity as to the language of BPD. The behaviors fit together and you gain greater understanding of their triggers. Is it any different for children? No, I don't think so at all. Teaching a child there might be a better way, a safer way, a more successful and enjoyable way is far more preferable than just saying their way is wrong. A subtle guiding hand where children and adults learn by their mistakes. 

[RolandOfEld]

In much the same way that pwBPD have a tenancy to enter negative emotional cycles due to maladapted coping mechanisms which temporarily relieve the mental pain, but further guilt and shame in the aftermath of a mental stimulus (requiring further emotional numbing and further maladapted coping mechanisms... .), we can can enter the same negative cycles by carrying the guilt and shame from our reaction to a previous incident into the next incident.

This is a wonderful insight, Enabler. I can see how much effort and intention you have put into being a father. Your children are lucky.

I was home from work the last 4 days so my wife could go for job interviews. Long stretch for me. On the whole I managed myself better by creating space for wisemind. But even when I manage not to let it take control, the emotional mess is still there inside me. I'm beginning to think of it as a kind of PTSD. It can't be controlled every time. My longterm T who can most likely help me with this will be back in country in June. I think she might be the only one here who can help me with this part.

A more pleasant update, my wife and I saw the psychiatrist connected to the DBT program last Friday. Since we had the kids with us we each saw here individually instead of together, which I think was for the best. I went in first and focused entirely on my issues in the relationship and personally, namely codependency and boundaries. I mentioned the counselor I had seen at the hospital had told me about the DBT program and thought that it might be a good option for my wife (I discussed nothing about my wife's behaviors or BPD in the meeting) and I asked if might be good for me, too. The doctor shot down DBT for me right away. And she said even if my wife had something like BPD, DBT would be a huge time commitment for someone with two kids. She gave me some anxiety meds and suggested a course of CBT for me.

Then my wife's turn. She was clearly in there a lot longer than me. I don't know what she told the doctor and didn't ask. When she came out she said the doctor told her her mood shifts were far too dramatic and she needed a blood test and a brain scan. I caught a look at my wife's diagnosis form and it said major depressive disorder and alcohol abuse, along with several prescribed treatments including medication and behavior adjustment training. My wife did the blood tests and is arranging the brain scan.

What this means for me is that my wife was honest in there about what's going on with her. I could have gone in there and told the doctor about her problems, but I decided to put some trust in her. If she didn't talk about it, it meant she wasn't ready to face it. Maybe she's still not completely ready. But she kept the appointment and was honest, and for that I'm quite proud of her.

Later she talked to me about the difference between our family counselor and the psychiatrist. She said when she saw the counselor she brought up BPD and the counselor smiled and said that terms like those were very broad and could scare someone and that everyone is different. The psychiatrist, meanwhile, threw a lot of terms and medication at her. We agreed that each side has its benefits and drawbacks. And I agree that we don't always need specific terms or labels to get people help. I hope the counselor's sensitivity and the psychiatrist's diagnosis can help find a solution that fits my wife, not just the criteria.  

I believe the reason she finally went is because I went with her as an equal party who wanted to resolve the problems in our relationship, and though I might not have been sincere about this part when I first convinced her I was by the time we went. I have problems, too, problems that are my responsibility. The ultimatums and threats didn't work. Love did.

I don't know where it goes from here. But at least now I know I have done everything I can. The ball is in her court now.  

~ROE  

[Radcliff]

Roland, it's wonderful to hear of your progress!  There's a lot of work ahead, but just getting to help is a huge step.  You moved mountains to get this far.  I'm impressed!

WW

[Enabler]

ROE,

Great news and really really pleased for you... .in fact rather envious.

I can't say I have any experience as far as your journey forward with your wife's potential treatment, however I can only imagine that your wife allowing even a crack in the veneer, enough for a therapist to start working on getting to the core issues and behavioral problems has to be positive. There's one thing to be honest but honest with regards to self is an even bigger step and surely has to be a step towards recovery.

Well done both of you.

[RolandOfEld]

Thank you WW. Again, it was you who outlined this possibility for me and for that I'm deeply grateful.

Thanks, Enabler, I really hope it sticks and goes some where. For the first time I can dimly see the possibility of a better outcome than separation.

Sharing with you that I had a mostly better night with my son last night. There was a little more strength left in my heart to give him positive attention. Don't know whether it's connected to this positive income. Maybe I can still be the dad I see in my head. 

~ROE

[Enabler]

Great to hear it ROE. Take some time to compartmentalize your individual relationships and keep the emotion associated with each compartment in that compartment. It's very very tough to do but you can now feel yourself, question yourself and real-time self assess how you are interacting with each person in your life. Briefly ask yourself "am I behaving in the right way with this person given what I have experienced with them in the recent past?". I've done a fair amount of reading about how kids heads get messed up. One of the common themes seems to be that primary care givers behavior differs from the assignable events... .'my Dad is shouting at me but I cannot assign it to anything I have actually done... .I am genetically programmed to want to be near my Dad and seek protection from my Dad, but I am afraid of him (I hate you don't leave me)... .since I cannot assign a good reason why my Dad is shouting at me, I must be at fault and be a holistically bad person'. That's a very crude summary of my understanding of just one aspect of how kids get messed up. I have probably shared before but will share again as I think it's a good example:

Enabler - FIL, why do you tolerate MIL talking to you in such a horrible way?
FIL - Hmmm I know she doesn't mean it

Over years FIL had learnt that MIL didn't mean the horrible things she said to him, however what he didn't realise was that my W when she was a little girl, didn't know MIL didn't mean the horrible things she said to her when she was stressed and dysregulating... .so W grew up hating herself, cutting herself and developed BPD.

So, I cannot stress how important it is to try as much as possible to ensure your kids see a true reflection of their behavior in your response, not externalities they cannot see nor understand. Kids are naughty, getting cross and angry with naughty kids is okay... .they can associate their bad behavior with your dissatisfaction and choose to correct their behavior. Make yourself accountable to your kids, say sorry when you know you got too cross.

You'll get there, it takes time but it builds momentum and becomes a reflex response.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi everyone, I did something last night that I think was the right thing but at the same time feels like the wrong thing.

For context, my wife has been very stressed recently going out for multiple job interviews / tests and being rejected. She's working super hard at this and still committing to seeing the doctor and I have been taking off lots of time recently to watch the kids so she can do both.

More context, recently I had two screw ups. I was helping my D2 climb a ladder at a playcenter recently and she lost her grip and fell. I was right next to her and watching her but I still failed to catch her in time. The floor is soft and she was fine, but it was still a big fall. Then this past weekend I took them swimming by myself and while I took a second to grab our toy raft my son stepped off the steps into deep water and was under for 1 second. I got to him right away but still feels like it shouldn't have happened. I attribute this to mindfulness problems which I will discuss more in a future post. I'm working on this.  

Last night after getting home from work I was playing with S5 and D2 (who are already naughty and go even more nuts when I get home). They ran off for a minute and I stayed where I was because I was tired and didn't want to get up right away, instead calling them to come back. By the time I got to where they were I found they had cut the wires on some light decorations my wife had bought a few years ago. Well my wife lost it on all three of us (why hadn't I been watching them?) and yelled at us all to go into the playroom. She called my son in a moment later I heard him crying loudly. I know his cries and I knew she had said something, which in this case turned out to be she was going to send him to the nanny's house.

Long story short, I got involved. I held him and said we would never ever ever send him away. I said to her that it was totally fine to send them to the nanny if she needed a break, but she couldn't connect it with bad behavior. I said she was essentially telling him his place in the home was conditional and that we could never do this to him. She does this, threatens to send him to school (which he will go to anyway later this year) or threatens that she will move away to the USA by herself. Things escalated and she started talking to him in that dysregulated way she talks to me, asking questions that are impossible to answer, especially for a 5 year old. I told her she was emotionally torturing him the same way she did to me, and I wouldn't let her do it to either of us ever again. I said I would get involved every time she did it.

She wouldn't stop with this talk towards him so I took both of them into the bathroom. S5 kept saying "mama is bad mama is bad!" She heard this and came in and started in with him again, saying then she would go to America. I told her to stop and tried to close the door but she pushed against it. I pushed back. Not a good thing for a kid to see. I shouldn't have done that.

It finally ended with her retreating to the bedroom with her Macbook. I took care of them the rest of the night and put them to sleep.

I want to say I don't think I really got too angry or lost my temper at any point. I just felt like I had to stand up for him, though I was also standing up for myself. The emotional torture is the thing I can't stand the most and that's caused me the most pain, that feeling of being talked into a corner with no where to go and being made to feel ashamed. I would take the hitting or the stuff stealing over that any day of the week. The thing is, I'm far from a perfect parent too and have been screwing the pooch a lot myself recently, which is why I feel guilty for getting so involved. During the argument I admitted the stuff I've been doing wrong, but I hate turning her into the monster even though I know she's doing it herself. And it wasn't cool for me to push on the door. Don't know if I should reach out first and apologize or not.

~ROE  

[Enabler]

recently I had two screw ups. I was helping my D2 climb a ladder at a playcenter recently and she lost her grip and fell. I was right next to her and watching her but I still failed to catch her in time. The floor is soft and she was fine, but it was still a big fall. Then this past weekend I took them swimming by myself and while I took a second to grab our toy raft my son stepped off the steps into deep water and was under for 1 second. I got to him right away but still feels like it shouldn't have happened.

Morning ROE,

I've butchered the above quote but hopefully I've not reduced it's context.

Let me start by saying DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE... .you are way way way too hard on yourself. Read what you wrote... ."I was right next to her and watching her but I still failed to catch her in time", you weren't in the bar, you weren't on your phone, you weren't talking to your mates... .YOU WERE THERE, right NEXT TO HER, WATCHING her. Your son and the swimming pool... .again, you turned your back to get a toy raft, you weren't chatting up a lifeguard, you weren't reading the paper, you WERE DOING YOUR BEST AND BEING THE BEST FATHER YOU COULD... .hell, you were taking your kids swimming which is a lot more than most. People make errors, people don't have perfect foresight, all we can do is make decisions based on the information before us. The same mantra goes for the wire cutting incident. Should the kids have cut the wires? No, of course not. If you'd have known they might cut the wires would you have got up and stopped them? Yes, of course you would have!

Okay, now to your wife.

What emotion do you think was being expressed when she was ripping into your son and you?
How do you think you could have handled this differently? (I personally don't know, there are obviously different way you could have handled this but would they have led to better outcomes?)

Can you see how the Karpman Triangle worked in the aftermath of the wire cutting incident... .maybe take it from all perspectives, yours, your W and your S. How did you enter, what moves around the triangle did you make, how did you exit. I would imagine you all have different perspectives as to your own moves.


Here's my example from Saturday:

D8's birthday, bunch of kids in the garden playing in paddling pool and slip and slide. D9 very upset due to disagreement with her friend. I'm preparing party tea of pizza etc.

Enabler W - W announces that she's sick of the kids being upset, ruining the party and she's never going to do a party at home again because both of them had been intolerable all day and she was sick of it. (Victim in her head, Perpetrator in my mind as she was attacking the kids rather than having compassion)
Enabler - goes to playroom to talk to D9 (Rescuing W/Coaching D9)
Enabler - Asks D9 what was going on and if she wants to talk about why she is upset, explaining that I felt sad that she was upset and wanted to help her work through some of her feelings (Coach)
D9 - Very upset that her friend (Perpetrator) seemed cross with her for no reason what so ever (Victim).
Enabler - Asked D9 if she knew of any reason why the friend might be cross with her, suggesting if she could think of no reason then maybe it's nothing to do with her. Suggested that D9 couldn't control the feelings of her friend and although it was upsetting D9 should have confidence it's nothing she'd done and continue to play in a fair way (Still Coach)
D9 - Understood what could be going on and seemed to perk up and be willing to go out and participate again.
Enabler - Suggested that D9 go and give Enabler W a cuddle on her way out (Coaching D9/Rescuing W (from her own anger))
Enabler W - couldn't contain her desire to tell D9 how disgusted she was with the behavior so rather than accepting the cuddle and moving on she ranted at her (She still feels like she's a Victim when actually she is now the Perpetrator)
Enabler - I shout back as leaving the room ":)uuuuuuuude, just give her a hug man!" (Trying to Rescue my D9, in my W eye I was a Perpetrator)
Enabler W - ":)on't Duuuuuuuuude me!" (feels Victim)

D9 - Arrives Victim leaves feeling neutral and empowered
Enabler W - Arrives Victim - Leaves Victim but in everyone else's eyes has been an unnecessary Perpetrator
Enabler - Arrives Neutral, tries to stay Coach but due to my lack of control at the end I leave as Perpetrator.