Is 'no more cold sex' a boundary?

[Depression = 72% of members]

This kind of program would help both with ED issues and with the "woman isn't getting anything that works for her" issues.

I had a sex talk with my husband last night and he admitted that a lot of his ED is due to performance anxiety. He gets thing so worked up in his head that he can't perform if he thinks that he might actually get some.

We were also talking about how thing were early in our relationship. We used to practice NFP, which involved me waking up every morning to take my temps and track my fertility. It was his job to wake me up and take my temp. We were reminiscing about how we would abstain during phase 2 (the fertile times) and then when it came time for phase 3 (infertile time), we couldn't keep our hands off of each other. It built up a lot of anticipation and set the stage for both of us to be "ready".

[vortex of confusion]

This kind of program would help both with ED issues and with the "woman isn't getting anything that works for her" issues.

I had a sex talk with my husband last night and he admitted that a lot of his ED is due to performance anxiety. He gets thing so worked up in his head that he can't perform if he thinks that he might actually get some.

We were also talking about how thing were early in our relationship. We used to practice NFP, which involved me waking up every morning to take my temps and track my fertility. It was his job to wake me up and take my temp. We were reminiscing about how we would abstain during phase 2 (the fertile times) and then when it came time for phase 3 (infertile time), we couldn't keep our hands off of each other. It built up a lot of anticipation and set the stage for both of us to be "ready".

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

He wont use any lotion or oil to give me a body rub, he doesn't like the feel of it on his hands.  A dry rub just isn't quite the same thing.

Crumbling,

Wow... .what a list. 

So... zero experience with this... .dealing with "difficult guys"... .but I'm a guy... .and over the years I've done stuff I really didn't want to do... .but got talked into it (or whatever)... .with sex or sex favors.  And... .I'm fine with it... .good trade.  I was smiling.

Here is the idea.  Go find the lotion or oil that you want.  Try to figure out a couple of days that will be good for your hubby... .if there are "better" days... .and really try to make those days better.

Make him good meals... .extra validation... .whatever.  Maybe just tell him you want to spend some time with him... .who knows.  Goal is to make sure he has an hour with his schedule clear...   Take phone off hook.

Lead him to bedroom... .hand him lotion.  Tell him you need 30 minutes of a good oiled up backrub... .acknowledge that he doesn't like the feeling... .but assure him that you will help him get over that after the backrub.

Maybe give him a playful swat on the rear as you say it.

Now... if he really bucks up after this and says... .no... .

Wow... .I just can't imagine that anyone... .PD or not... .can have an issue with "oily" hands for a few minutes.

Do you see the idea I'm getting at... ?  Any thoughts?

[ColdEthyl]

He wont use any lotion or oil to give me a body rub, he doesn't like the feel of it on his hands.  A dry rub just isn't quite the same thing.

Crumbling,

Wow... .what a list. 

So... zero experience with this... .dealing with "difficult guys"... .but I'm a guy... .and over the years I've done stuff I really didn't want to do... .but got talked into it (or whatever)... .with sex or sex favors.  And... .I'm fine with it... .good trade.  I was smiling.

Here is the idea.  Go find the lotion or oil that you want.  Try to figure out a couple of days that will be good for your hubby... .if there are "better" days... .and really try to make those days better.

Make him good meals... .extra validation... .whatever.  Maybe just tell him you want to spend some time with him... .who knows.  Goal is to make sure he has an hour with his schedule clear...   Take phone off hook.

Lead him to bedroom... .hand him lotion.  Tell him you need 30 minutes of a good oiled up backrub... .acknowledge that he doesn't like the feeling... .but assure him that you will help him get over that after the backrub.

Maybe give him a playful swat on the rear as you say it.

Now... if he really bucks up after this and says... .no... .

Wow... .I just can't imagine that anyone... .PD or not... .can have an issue with "oily" hands for a few minutes.

Do you see the idea I'm getting at... ?  Any thoughts?

I can see it happening. Since my husband is similar with his pickiness... .there were times I was bold and tried to initiate sex and he would stare at me blankly and give me whatever excuse he had at the time.

For a "non", I'm sure this sounds ridiculous to you. But the more I've read the ladies' accounts... .it seems like most of them have some weird issues with their BPD males.

[formflier]

For a "non", I'm sure this sounds ridiculous to you. But the more I've read the ladies' accounts... .it seems like most of them have some weird issues with their BPD males.

Yep... .and my "prescription"... .is to not let the issue drop.

Maybe... .it could be better to just get the rub... with no sex at end.  That might be less scary. 

Plus... I definitely sense that there are frustrated people here... .and they need to "win one... "

So... .pick something like this... .and "win it".  Stick with it as long as it takes... .

[vortex of confusion]

Yep... .and my "prescription"... .is to not let the issue drop.

Maybe... .it could be better to just get the rub... with no sex at end.  That might be less scary. 

Plus... I definitely sense that there are frustrated people here... .and they need to "win one... "

So... .pick something like this... .and "win it".  Stick with it as long as it takes... .

I think it is good in theory. However, I know that I have tried lots of different things. I persisted and stuck with it. It didn't work. I am not trying to be contrary but when I read stuff like this I feel like it is putting the pressure back on me. It puts me back into a position of it being MY fault because I wasn't persistent enough or creative enough or something. A person can only handle so much rejection before getting tired and frustrated and burned out.

[Crumbling]

We were reminiscing about how we would abstain during phase 2 (the fertile times) and then when it came time for phase 3 (infertile time), we couldn't keep our hands off of each other. It built up a lot of anticipation and set the stage for both of us to be "ready".

There may be a hint here, VoC on how to pursue the issue for the two of you... .I'd try getting creative in building up anticipation in some way, see if it still works.  Anticipation makes my BPDh nervous.  It's likely a performance issue.

I've removed an item off the menu a few months ago, something he obsesses over.  It's the only way I could get him to even consider anything else.  I'm sticking to my guns, but it's hard.  

He's very persistent, and gets so bent out of shape when I stand my ground.  I don't care anymore.  I do good at not making it worse.  I give him affection and kindness, but I'm not changing my stance, no matter how much he doesn't like it.  

I'm afraid the sad reality is that we, the 'non' women, need emotional validation to feel sexually aroused, and our SO's can't give us emotional validation.  That's why we've given up, given in, and put up with it... .what else can you do?

:'(

[Crumbling]

Ever open a kettle of fish only to discover you don't really want fish... .

it's not the sex I want, it's the affection... .

[vortex of confusion]

We were reminiscing about how we would abstain during phase 2 (the fertile times) and then when it came time for phase 3 (infertile time), we couldn't keep our hands off of each other. It built up a lot of anticipation and set the stage for both of us to be "ready".

There may be a hint here, VoC on how to pursue the issue for the two of you... .I'd try getting creative in building up anticipation in some way, see if it still works.  Anticipation makes my BPDh nervous.  It's likely a performance issue.

The anticipation stuff has had mixed results. Sometimes it works and sometimes it blows up in my face. I do know that my husband said something like he doesn't think it is a biology problem as much as it is a thinking problem. After we were intimate the last time, he said that he almost lost it because he was thinking too much about the "what ifs". He has said that he does better when he lets himself get lost in the moment and focuses on me and how things feel. The problem is that the results are very mixed and there is a lack of consistency. That is difficult to work with!

I'm afraid the sad reality is that we, the 'non' women, need emotional validation to feel sexually aroused, and our SO's can't give us emotional validation.  That's why we've given up, given in, and put up with it... .what else can you do?

:'(

That is the bottom line. I want to feel like I am valued and validated by my partner. Without that piece of the puzzle, everything in the bedroom feels empty and unsatisfying with or without an O. Having an O is great but it isn't the be all, end all gold standard for me. I have been content with lots of bad sex with my partner because there was other stuff going on that was a whole lot more important to me than whether or not my partner is a god or bad lover.

[MissyM]

I see in this thread the same issue we used to have involving therapists that didn't get that the issue was an intimacy and attachment disorder.   They kept trying to get me to "fix" my husband's sexual problem with advice that had no impact on the underlying issue.  Until the underlying issue began being addressed, nothing changed.  I happen to be quite good at sex and had a well defined image around it, therefore I refused to take on an issue that wasn't mine.  These issues cannot be cured by the wife doing more this or that.  I get what VOC is saying, that is a maddening approach and very invalidating.  Since my dBPDh and I have been able to work trough this exact issue, I feel very comfortable with saying that trying to address this issue with sexual advice does not work.  It is like trying to solve an eating disorder by concentrating on the food, trying different foods, cooking it differently, eating at different times, etc. 

[Cat Familiar]

That only works with somebody that understands non-verbal cues. My husband does NOT seem to understand non-verbal cues. He gets so focused on himself and what he wants that he will miss those non-verbal cues. It is really frustrating to try to communicate with somebody in the heat of passion only to have them ignore it, not hear it, OR get upset IF they do happen to hear or pick up on something.

It is due to pure selfishness mixed with lack of intimacy. After all, a blow up doll is there for his pleasure!

Vortex, when I read this, I wondered if your husband has Aspergers. Also wanting to be praised for everything--makes me wonder.

[formflier]

  I feel very comfortable with saying that trying to address this issue with sexual advice does not work.  

I agree... .that any expectation to "solve" the issue... .is not realistic.

However... I think TLCs in behavior is possible.  And when those changes happen... I think that they should be praised.

So... .if there has been a long term refusal to do a backrub... and now that starts happening... .it's a TLC... .it's a move in the right direction.

If that continues to make them uncomfortable... .they should address it with there therapist or mental health team... .it should not be addressed by withholding a backrub from someone that wants it.

Struggling with how to explain that is does sort of need to be "put on" the women (in this instance) to keep the pressure on.

If you want a backrub... .let them know... .don't drop the issue.  You job is not to force them to do it... .but I think your job is to keep the pressure on... .shine the light on the issue... .

Once the light is shined... .something will happen.  Hopefully with the rest of the tools that have been learned on here... .the "nons" can help guide things in a healthy... .productive way.

Thoughts?

[vortex of confusion]

Struggling with how to explain that is does sort of need to be "put on" the women (in this instance) to keep the pressure on.

If you want a backrub... .let them know... .don't drop the issue.  You job is not to force them to do it... .but I think your job is to keep the pressure on... .shine the light on the issue... .

Once the light is shined... .something will happen.  Hopefully with the rest of the tools that have been learned on here... .the "nons" can help guide things in a healthy... .productive way.

Thoughts?

Here is my problem with what I think you are saying. Yes I can push the issue of a backrub or a kiss or things like that. Sure, I can get my husband to go along with something. I can give him all sorts of instructions and push the things that are important to me. That STILL does not equal intimacy. That STILL does not get my motor running in the right direction. Maybe it is a difference between men and women. I am not sure. I know the difference in how it feels when my husband rubs my feet because he wants to and when he rubs them because I have asked him to do it. When he isn't into it or is doing it to please me, he isn't nearly as gentle and there is a certain quality to it that is a HUGE turn off. I don't know if the other women in this thread have that experience or not. I do know that I can guide my husband all day long but that isn't going to equal intimacy and it isn't going to get me what I want. My husband will screw things up (on accident of course) in such a way that I stop asking him.

[Cat Familiar]

Here is my problem with what I think you are saying. Yes I can push the issue of a backrub or a kiss or things like that. Sure, I can get my husband to go along with something. I can give him all sorts of instructions and push the things that are important to me. That STILL does not equal intimacy. That STILL does not get my motor running in the right direction. Maybe it is a difference between men and women. I am not sure. I know the difference in how it feels when my husband rubs my feet because he wants to and when he rubs them because I have asked him to do it. When he isn't into it or is doing it to please me, he isn't nearly as gentle and there is a certain quality to it that is a HUGE turn off. I don't know if the other women in this thread have that experience or not. I do know that I can guide my husband all day long but that isn't going to equal intimacy and it isn't going to get me what I want. My husband will screw things up (on accident of course) in such a way that I stop asking him.

Yes, when they give you a massage because they want to, it's sensual. When they do it because you ask, it's like waxing the car.

[Notwendy]

About 7 years into our marriage, my H went all cold on me. He even refused to kiss me. When I asked for affection, he told me I was making him work too hard, and that there wasn't anything wrong with him wanting "quicky" sex. The kids were little, I was depressed and worn down from the rages. Basically, we had cold, emotionless sex for years. He didn't seem to mind. I could have been a blow up doll and it wouldn't be much different.

Now that he's showing more interest in the marriage, he says I am not affectionate enough, but it is hard for me to enjoy with him what he refused to give me for so long. For a long time, if did kiss me, I would cry because it brought back the pain of when he refused to.  Not knowing about BPD, I asked so many times why he did what he did, and he either won't say or doesn't know, or makes up some reason that it was my fault.

I have a hard time believing he is truly interested in something like foreplay. I think he really just wants to get to it. He will give backrubs, which is nice. I know I have a lot of anger and resentment to get over.

He's been my one and only for 30 years. I don't remember much else. Like Vortex said, sometimes I try to think back to when it wasn't this way, but it is hard to remember what that was like.

Some people mentioned SA, and I am as certain as anyone can be that there isn't someone else, at least not for years. I had suspicions about someone years ago, but no real proof. I am sure he's not doing a lot of things that people with SA do, however, there is the ED, and he also had a shaming background. I know there was some porn interest before we got married, not really sure how much that is at play now, but if it was, it isn't something that I noticed.

Why a guy would want to be the way he was with me, a loving and caring wife at the time ( although painted black), I have no idea.

[MissyM]

Some people mentioned SA, and I am as certain as anyone can be that there isn't someone else, at least not for years. I had suspicions about someone years ago, but no real proof. I am sure he's not doing a lot of things that people with SA do, however, there is the ED, and he also had a shaming background. I know there was some porn interest before we got married, not really sure how much that is at play now, but if it was, it isn't something that I noticed.

Actually my dBPDh's primary diagnosis is intimacy and sexual anorexia, he then flipped into SA after a brief stint of drug addiction.  There is a great book called Married and Alone, that really resonated with me.  That is how it was for 11 years of our marriage and before he ever acted out in any way.  His isn't the normal story for SA, that starts with porn and acting out young.  That is partially how they made the BPD diagnosis, the switching around of addictions.  However, the intimacy anorexia was always there (which I am now being told was caused by an attachment disorder).  He always had ED issues.  Now he knows that when he is emotionally present and connected, he doesn't have much issue with ED.  It can still happen if he is stressed out, which keeps him from being fully present.  I wish I had known what intimacy and sexual anorexia were before all of the other addictions were added in, maybe we could have avoided some of the crap that happened over the last few years.

[vortex of confusion]

Yes, when they give you a massage because they want to, it's sensual. When they do it because you ask, it's like waxing the car.

If is like waxing the car and you don't get excited, then they feel hurt and rejected. And suddenly, I become impossible to please, too demanding, etc. It sets off a chain of events/conversations that are even more uncomfortable than going without.

[formflier]

Yes, when they give you a massage because they want to, it's sensual. When they do it because you ask, it's like waxing the car.

If is like waxing the car and you don't get excited, then they feel hurt and rejected. And suddenly, I become impossible to please, too demanding, etc. It sets off a chain of events/conversations that are even more uncomfortable than going without.

That is when you kick in the tools that you have learned on BPD family... .

Then... .the next day... ."get your car waxed again... ."

At some point... .they hopefully will realize that you guys are serious... .and that their discomfort (I guess that is best way to say it)... .is not going to be solved by avoiding the "car wax".

After several waxes... .you will both most likely be a little bit more relaxed... .it's not weird anymore... .and then the conversation may turn... .and then... .it might be an intimate backrub... .instead of a car wax.

[formflier]

 

So... .for harboring anger from the past.

What can they do now... .to help that issue?

My suggestion is that this is a place where forgiveness can come into play.

Forgiveness can be hard to do... .but absolutely essential if there is to be a better future.

[vortex of confusion]

That is when you kick in the tools that you have learned on BPD family... .

Then... .the next day... ."get your car waxed again... ."

At some point... .they hopefully will realize that you guys are serious... .and that their discomfort (I guess that is best way to say it)... .is not going to be solved by avoiding the "car wax".

After several waxes... .you will both most likely be a little bit more relaxed... .it's not weird anymore... .and then the conversation may turn... .and then... .it might be an intimate backrub... .instead of a car wax.

I know what you are getting at FF. I really do understand what you are saying.

I know that the argument can be made that I didn't have the tools from this site in the past. That is a valid point.

With or without the tools of this site, without some kind of change in the other person, it is likely that the waxing becomes the norm without any kind of real intimacy. I think that is the point that MissyM was trying to make. Unless the underlying intimacy issues are addressed, it is still going to be a car wax. Both parties may be comfortable with it and it may not be weird but it is still JUST a car wax.

[Grey Kitty]

I know the difference in how it feels when my husband rubs my feet because he wants to and when he rubs them because I have asked him to do it. When he isn't into it or is doing it to please me, he isn't nearly as gentle and there is a certain quality to it that is a HUGE turn off. I don't know if the other women in this thread have that experience or not. I do know that I can guide my husband all day long but that isn't going to equal intimacy and it isn't going to get me what I want. My husband will screw things up (on accident of course) in such a way that I stop asking him.

Yes, when they give you a massage because they want to, it's sensual. When they do it because you ask, it's like waxing the car.

OK... .you ladies are both non's, so this may not apply to you... .however please think about it and whether there is a little bit of this going on.

When my wife was in her abusive BPD period, she felt that if I gave her something after she asked, it didn't count. As soon as she asked for what she wanted, she pretty much jumped straight to berating me for not giving it to her unasked, and generally rejected it if I did offer it.

So make sure you are giving him the benefit of the doubt and a chance to do right.

He may WANT to give you something and may engage with you and genuinely give you that is sensual when you ask for it and are receptive to it.

... .and that is very different than him going through the motions and "waxing the car".

One other challenge: If you ASK him for something, are you making it safe for him to say either yes or no? If he doesn't feel able to say no, that may not be your fault... .or you may have contributed.

[MissyM]

He may WANT to give you something and may engage with you and genuinely give you that is sensual when you ask for it and are receptive to it.

... .and that is very different than him going through the motions and "waxing the car".

I think that is a HUGE assumption.  My husband wouldn't have known that what he was doing was so off because he had no frame of reference, yet I did.  Sensual was a foreign concept to him.  He thought of it as almost a mechanical action.   Thankfully with all of the work he has done, that is no longer true but I really feel for the ladies that are still dealing with this.  I think unless you have experienced this, you just have no idea how hurtful this is.

[Cat Familiar]

Of course it's always nicer when it's offered, but I wouldn't turn down a car wax.

I think the difference is that they'll get stuck on doing something really rote-ly--like making circles over and over on one shoulder. You can tell they're spacing out and not really feeling it. It's like we've turned into a worry stone.

[vortex of confusion]

MissyM said:

I think that is a HUGE assumption.  My husband wouldn't have known that what he was doing was so off because he had no frame of reference, yet I did.  Sensual was a foreign concept to him.  He thought of it as almost a mechanical action.   Thankfully with all of the work he has done, that is no longer true but I really feel for the ladies that are still dealing with this.  I think unless you have experienced this, you just have no idea how hurtful this is.

Thank you for this! It is very, very, very validating for me. I was really beginning to think that I was losing my mind. I hate to admit it but I didn't realize some of this until I went outside the marriage. How could this guy that I barely knew do these things yet my own husband couldn't?

I think this is one of the first times that I have been validated on this. Whenever I have tried to bring it up with others, it has felt like it was my fault because of my attitude, I wasn't trying hard enough, or something else. GK and FF have some great points and things to think about but at the same time it is hurtful because it is like picking at a scab.

Cat Familiar said:

I think the difference is that they'll get stuck on doing something really rote-ly--like making circles over and over on one shoulder. You can tell they're spacing out and not really feeling it. It's like we've turned into a worry stone.

I seem to recall telling somebody one time that being with my husband was kind of like doing the dishes. I know that I have also said that I get about the same connection out of my toy as I do with my husband. I know those are really harsh things to say and I have felt really bad about saying them and feeling them. What you and MissyM and other have said, has really shown a light on WHY I was feeling that way. It wasn't my imagination and it wasn't me being demanding or dysfunctional. What I was feeling (or not feeling) was very real and there is an actual reason and explanation behind it.

[MissyM]

It wasn't my imagination and it wasn't me being demanding or dysfunctional. What I was feeling (or not feeling) was very real and there is an actual reason and explanation behind it.

It is very normal for the spouse to be blamed and gaslighted on this issue.  Most people cannot understand, to them it seems so simple because they have never been with someone that is this disconnected.  Most of the advice given would work for other people.  My relationship before my husband, my boyfriend had some ED in the beginning because he was uncomfortable.  Once we were closer and he felt comfortable being himself sexually, then the ED disappeared.  I assumed the same would happen for my husband, if he could just get comfortable and if I was nice and accepting, then it would go away.  Big no on that!  There was nothing I could do, and I tried everything, that would make it better for him.  He had to face his issues himself before he could deal with sexual intimacy.

[vortex of confusion]

It is very normal for the spouse to be blamed and gaslighted on this issue.  Most people cannot understand, to them it seems so simple because they have never been with someone that is this disconnected.  Most of the advice given would work for other people.  My relationship before my husband, my boyfriend had some ED in the beginning because he was uncomfortable.  Once we were closer and he felt comfortable being himself sexually, then the ED disappeared.  I assumed the same would happen for my husband, if he could just get comfortable and if I was nice and accepting, then it would go away.  Big no on that!  There was nothing I could do, and I tried everything, that would make it better for him.  He had to face his issues himself before he could deal with sexual intimacy.

Before we were married, there were never any problems. I asked him one time how he was able to do things before we got married. One time, he told me that if he knew we were going to go out, he wouldn't look at porn or take care of himself for several days before we got together.

After we got married and moved into an apartment together, he went right back to his normal routines which were getting up, having his coffee and porn, and taking care of himself. He said that it never occurred to him that he would need to change his routines or that I might want to do stuff in the morning. That was 16 years ago but it was a source of a lot of tension between us. I couldn't comprehend WHY a guy wouldn't wake up his new bride for a morning romp. Now, I have a better understanding. It was easier and less work to resort to what he knew and what he was comfortable with, which was himself. I had never been married before and was in my early twenties. I had no idea who to turn to because I was afraid that I would be accused of being a cold fish or that something was wrong with me. After all, what normal guy does that unless there is something wrong with HER? I believed that for a really long time.

[MissyM]

Now, I have a better understanding. It was easier and less work to resort to what he knew and what he was comfortable with, which was himself.

Read the link I posted on the other thread, it talks about this issue exactly.

[vortex of confusion]

Read the link I posted on the other thread, it talks about this issue exactly.

Thanks! I did read it. I have been on the POSARC email list for quite a while.

I wish I had read this 15 years ago:

He can engage sexually with others and/or porn because there is little at risk emotionally

I have asked the question: How can he do this? for years but have just now come to understand what has really been going on. It has been complete torture for me. 

[Crumbling]

After what I thought was a healthy discussion this morning, BPDh pretty much avoided me all day.  :)id outside chores, went up to visit the neighbor, went to the store and bought liquor.  I didn't get upset, or anything, just went through the motions as if everything was normal.  

When he couldn't talk on the phone any longer, and it was too late to visit anyone, he asked me what I wanted to do.  I said, I want to go upstairs, cuddle on the bed and maybe get a nice back rub, with lotion.

He said, lets play cards.  I said, I'd rather have a back rub.  He said lets watch a movie.  I said, I'm going upstairs to lay on the bed.  He said, your crazy, you're losing it.  I said because I want a back rub, you think I'm crazy?  I think you're that guy in the Bible that gives his kid a serpent when he asked for a turtle! (That's not really the actual Bible quote, but he knew what I meant).

I pretty much laid in bed all evening, eventually crying myself to sleep.  So much for sticking to your guns.  It must be the extinction burst happening.  He's so non-receptive to anything I suggest.  I'm too tired and frustrated to care anymore.

[Grey Kitty]

He said, lets play cards.  I said, I'd rather have a back rub.  He said lets watch a movie.  I said, I'm going upstairs to lay on the bed.  He said, your crazy, you're losing it.  I said because I want a back rub, you think I'm crazy?  I think you're that guy in the Bible that gives his kid a serpent when he asked for a turtle! (That's not really the actual Bible quote, but he knew what I meant).

I pretty much laid in bed all evening, eventually crying myself to sleep.  So much for sticking to your guns.  It must be the extinction burst happening.  He's so non-receptive to anything I suggest.  I'm too tired and frustrated to care anymore.

 That sounds so tough. So much rejection.

Sticking to your truth and being open enough about what you wanted is good powerful (and hard!) work.

I'm impressed that you did stick to asking for what you want, even though you had very good reason to fear he would do exactly what he did... .let you down and reject you.

There is incredible strength in that kind of vulnerability. 

[vortex of confusion]

I pretty much laid in bed all evening, eventually crying myself to sleep.  So much for sticking to your guns.  It must be the extinction burst happening.  He's so non-receptive to anything I suggest.  I'm too tired and frustrated to care anymore.

     

I have been there. I have cried myself to sleep so many times over the years. Laying in bed feeling lonely and wondering what the hell is wrong with you that your own spouse doesn't want you. That is one of the worst feelings in the world.