Is 'no more cold sex' a boundary?

[Grey Kitty]

Cat Familiar said:

I think the difference is that they'll get stuck on doing something really rote-ly--like making circles over and over on one shoulder. You can tell they're spacing out and not really feeling it. It's like we've turned into a worry stone.

I seem to recall telling somebody one time that being with my husband was kind of like doing the dishes. I know that I have also said that I get about the same connection out of my toy as I do with my husband. I know those are really harsh things to say and I have felt really bad about saying them and feeling them. What you and MissyM and other have said, has really shown a light on WHY I was feeling that way. It wasn't my imagination and it wasn't me being demanding or dysfunctional. What I was feeling (or not feeling) was very real and there is an actual reason and explanation behind it.

I want to speak to this (as gently as I can).

You put up with him treating you like a blow-up doll for a long time, at first not even realizing it, and the resentment built up to explosive levels. Before you even really understood what about it was bothering you and why it was so hurtful.

You describe sex with your husband where you aren't willing (or even able?) to engage with him in any level of intimacy. What you are doing with him is pretty much the same.

Your reasons are different. Your path to that place is different. But that is where you are now. Sex with him has no intimacy at all.

You want to have sex with a guy where you get something that a toy can't give you -- a real connection.

Your H might be so obtuse or so wrapped up in his brand of crazy regarding sex that he doesn't even imagine this is possible. Or maybe he's almost forgotten. Or maybe because he has so much difficulty with intimacy (BPD, remember?) he is already too close to you/enmeshed with you to be able to be able to cope with it with you.

Honestly, I couldn't say whether he wants sex with things (intimacy) a blow-up doll couldn't give him or not.

Evidence from your posts is that as of TODAY, he doesn't have that capacity with you.

I'm still trying to be gentle, while asking you a really tough question:

Is playing the part of living blow-up doll for him doing something in accordance with your values? Or is it against your values? Does it leave you feeling soiled, or that you did something to improve your marriage and you feel good about that? (No debate that the sex wasn't satisfying for you.)

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[vortex of confusion]

Is playing the part of living blow-up doll for him doing something in accordance with your values? Or is it against your values? Does it leave you feeling soiled, or that you did something to improve your marriage and you feel good about that? (No debate that the sex wasn't satisfying for you.)

I can't really give a black and white answer to this.

Taking one for the team (being a blow up doll) every once in a while is well within my values. It began to violate my values when it became clear that it was a pervasive pattern rather than a situation where I was taking one for the team. Initially, I was doing it to try to find ways to improve my marriage. Again, it didn't really start violating my values until it became obvious that it was doing more harm than good. I did if for so long because I had the mindset that Formflier suggested in the other thread of the same topic. I thought that if I did it enough times, perhaps something would start working. Perhaps I would get comfortable with it. Perhaps my husband would get more comfortable and relax into things and that would make things all better. I have had 16.5 years worth of trying and taking one for the team. I don't remember when it changed from me seeing it as trying to connect and improve the marriage to me feeling dirty. I think I have waffled on that over time. I can look back and see the gradual change where it went from I was cool with it most of the time to feeling dirty most of the time. As I became more aware of what was going on, I started being less and less comfortable with it.

Continuing to take one for the team or hoping that being persistent will change the dynamic or improve things is unrealistic in my experience. I had to acknowledge that no amount of trying on my part will change things. No amount of me being creative or persistent or anything else is going to help. It is going to take setting some boundaries and figuring out what kind of sex I am willing to participate in at any given time. Unless my husband does something on his side of things to address his underlying issues, I don't think I can hope for any kind of change with regards to sex.

[Notwendy]

Yes, I remember crying myself to sleep a lot. Also crying a lot. Eventually, I couldn't stop crying, cried all the time. Then I went to get help.

Years later, something made him decide to "come back" into the marriage.  Then he was super romantic for a while. I fell for it. I was over the moon. I thought we had our happy marriage back. But the rages returned and that was the last time I could really "fall" deeply in love after that. I was always wary to some extent, even though I am less defensive over time as I am less co-dependent on his opinion of me.

What are my values? I'm an old fashioned romantic wanting sex, love, intimacy all with one guy and nobody else. I think the 10 commandments are good rules to live by and so fidelity is one of my values. However, I think there are a lot of people who are not in a situation where sex,love, intimacy are there for them- single people, married people who may have spouses with conditions where sex is limited. For me, my number one value is intimacy and authenticity, and while I feel strongly that some things are limited to marriage, I can have intimacy with good friends, family members ( functional ones). I can experience love with other people, albeit not what I think marital love is.

I read some sources of emotional anorexia, and if it is my husband's choice to do this, and I have been starving for years, I realize I don't have to starve. I can have friends, although I know that some boundaries must be respected with males.

My H loves being the recepient of all my openness, love and connection, but he doesn't like to return it. He wants me to think of him like I did when we were first married, when I didn't know how it felt for him to paint me black all of a sudden.  One can't become innocent again, once innocence is lost and someone has abused the trust you had in them. One thing my H is very jealous of are the few male friends I have from childhood,- that I grew up with and think of as brothers- even though there is nothing physical between me and them and I am friends with their wives. Although I have only seen them a few times, he notices that when I am with them, I am not guarded, not WOE. There's a trust that was formed in chilhood, that "innocence lost" with my H has not been lost with them.

[Notwendy]

What made the "black " years so unbearable was not understanding why, any husband in his right mind, would treat a loving caring wife the way he treated me. Now, I know that I am not perfect, and people make mistakes, and also have disagreements, however, I do know that I had the kind of love for him that I think most people would appreciate, and it is also the kind of love I wished I had received. For years, I would have done anything to make things better, and so I accepted his reasons ( blaming me for everything) and did all I thought I could to be what he thought he wanted me to be.

The faulty thinking in this, of course, is the assumption of "right mind", taking all the blame, and thinking I could fix it. Now that I am aware that this wasn't true, I can reframe things. While it may look like I am revisiting old resentments, by doing so, I am reframing them. I understand that there's a reason he painted me black for those years, why JADE never worked and more so, being co-dependent and trying to fix him was not productive or good for me.

I have hope because, in a similar way, I was able to see my mother differently when I had the understanding of BPD, because the pattern with me was similar. I could not reconcile how a mother who loved her child could have been the way she was with me. Understanding her helped me resolve the bitterness I had with her. However, it also won't get me my childhood back, and I am the person I am today because of her, some for better, some for worse, but I have learned from it all.

I chose my H and I realize that marriage is sometimes hard work too. However, I also know that a relationship with a person with BPD has its limits. I take it one day at a time. I have hope, but not false hope.

[ColdEthyl]

After what I thought was a healthy discussion this morning, BPDh pretty much avoided me all day.  :)id outside chores, went up to visit the neighbor, went to the store and bought liquor.  I didn't get upset, or anything, just went through the motions as if everything was normal.  

When he couldn't talk on the phone any longer, and it was too late to visit anyone, he asked me what I wanted to do.  I said, I want to go upstairs, cuddle on the bed and maybe get a nice back rub, with lotion.

He said, lets play cards.  I said, I'd rather have a back rub.  He said lets watch a movie.  I said, I'm going upstairs to lay on the bed.  He said, your crazy, you're losing it.  I said because I want a back rub, you think I'm crazy?  I think you're that guy in the Bible that gives his kid a serpent when he asked for a turtle! (That's not really the actual Bible quote, but he knew what I meant).

I pretty much laid in bed all evening, eventually crying myself to sleep.  So much for sticking to your guns.  It must be the extinction burst happening.  He's so non-receptive to anything I suggest.  I'm too tired and frustrated to care anymore.

I know what that feels like, too. My H told me I need to be more aggressive, and one time I started to kiss his neck... .run my hands up and down his body, and he didn't move. I opened my eyes and he was just staring at me like... .blankly. I'll never forget that. I kept at it... .you know trying to be aggressive and said something flirty and he just said maybe later? I'm really tired. And he rolled over and fell asleep within seconds.

I just laid there for a long time crying and feeling really really undesirable. Dealing with a pwBPD is not like dealing with a non male. After years of trying... .I quit trying for awhile. It hurts to be rejected over and over and over. It does mess you up. Then... .I was blamed for that too.

It got to the point to where I would get angry at sex scenes on TV shows and I wouldn't look at them. I was jealous of fake people having fake sex. Every time he said something about how pretty a girl was, or her eyes or any compliment I wanted to scream.

To me, it felt like oh he can find them attractive... .but I'm just nothing. Anytime we talked about it... .he would say it's not me, and he's sick and disgusted with himself for not being able to please me... .ugh it's a mess.

It just becomes a huge mess, and trying to dig through the BPD makes it 1,000 times harder, because then you get to add his insecurities about himself, and thinking I'm going to cheat... .it goes on and on.

[Grey Kitty]

Is playing the part of living blow-up doll for him doing something in accordance with your values? Or is it against your values? Does it leave you feeling soiled, or that you did something to improve your marriage and you feel good about that? (No debate that the sex wasn't satisfying for you.)

I can't really give a black and white answer to this.

Taking one for the team (being a blow up doll) every once in a while is well within my values. It began to violate my values when it became clear that it was a pervasive pattern rather than a situation where I was taking one for the team. Initially, I was doing it to try to find ways to improve my marriage. Again, it didn't really start violating my values until it became obvious that it was doing more harm than good.

I don't think your values changed over time; I think your situation did, so your values pointed you toward choosing different actions.

Earlier, you were feeling generous when you offer this to him, making a wiling choice for your own reasons and motivation. (Take one for the team)

Later, you were feeling trapped or hopeless. You weren't feeling like you were doing it willingly. (The team kept on taking!)

Your spirit of generosity had gone away from what was the exact same act in a different situation, and you did feel soiled and used by the experience.

I'm not saying that the difference is strictly black and white--your feelings probably kinda slid from one place to another. But eventually you were on the other side of a very real line.

[MissyM]

VOC, I heartily agree that trying to solve this problem by doing sex differently doesn't work.  As I said, trying to solve anorexia by focusing on food doesn't work.  (I use that example because these 2 issues are the most similar in the brain).

GK, interesting.  I take VOC's description as not a change in generosity but as a loss of hope.  It sounds like she used to hope that the sex would improve so she kept "taking one for the team" and once she realized it was not getting better, she really began to get in touch with how bad it felt.  As a codependent, I can sacrifice myself for quite a while before I realize it feels bad and icky.

[Rapt Reader]

This conversation is bringing back so many memories for me of a time when my marriage was suffering from the same lack of intimacy and my feelings of being the unappreciated partner to my Husband's actions. It happened throughout the whole 2.5 years of his affair with another woman (I knew something was going on for the first 2 years or so, but wasn't sure--or willing to be sure--that it was a sexual affair and not the "emotional affair" he kept telling me it was).

During the first 2 years of it, I consented to "cold sex" (I knew his heart wasn't into it; looking back I now believe he wanted sex with me during that time because he was deluding himself that as long as he was intimate with me as much as he was with his girlfriend, he wasn't taking anything away from our marriage. Right   ) because I needed the act to prove to me that he still loved me though I knew he had a relationship with another woman.

My young (32) and naïve mind assumed that as long as I was consenting to sex anytime he wanted it, he would avoid escalating the "emotional affair" to a sexual one. It dehumanized me and demoralized me, but I thought I was preserving our marriage with included 2 young sons. I continued to consent to that act even after he admitted the sexual nature of the affair, because he kept telling me every time I caught them engaging again (not in person, but by evidence) that he was working on "getting over her". I thought that my consenting and participating would help him accomplish that.

After the affair ended, it took me a very long time to feel intimate with him, to trust him, to want to have the closeness of an intimate relationship with him again. A few years for it to really get to that point, actually. I've mentioned this in posts on this Board before, but one of the turning points for me was when I read the book Intimate Partners by Maggie Scarf.

It was a studied read, included little exercises to write out and contemplate, but by the time I finished it I had such a good idea of what had drawn us together in the first place, what had most likely caused his actions, why I had reacted and acted the way I did, and how to figure out the next step. Here's something from the synopsis of her book (linked to above) that explains it all better than I can:

Scarf looks backward in order to look forward. That is, she analyzes the ways in which unconscious expectations and patterns of relating—imported into the here-and-now from their earliest experiences—are often the primary source of conflict in many partners’ relationships. She also shows how emotional triangles—which may involve a child, an in-law, a boss or some other outsider—are often used by intimate partners to handle tensions within the marriage itself.

What can a couple do to understand the basic scaffolding of their marriage—and to make any desired changes and improvements? The author shows how to construct a genogram—a roadmap of each partner’s inherited emotional history—in order to better understand issues that are arising in the present. And in a section of the book devoted to several sets of simple tasks, she sets out some easy exercises that intimate partners can use to resolve tension and conflict, and to change the very nature of the world they share.

I can't say that this will have the same effect on everyone who reads this book, but I can say that you would have a very good idea of why things are affecting you, and you as a couple, and ways to at least think about changing things. I really recommend it for at least some insights into intimacy-related situations.

[Crumbling]

  That sounds so tough. So much rejection.

  Sticking to your truth and being open enough about what you wanted is good powerful (and hard!) work.

I'm impressed that you did stick to asking for what you want, even though you had very good reason to fear he would do exactly what he did... .let you down and reject you.

There is incredible strength in that kind of vulnerability. 

Thanks, GK.  I sure feel emotionally drained today.  It did feel right at the time.  It may not of been a successful attempt, but it did bring the issue out in the open, front and centre, no longer to be ignored.   And I think you're last post, about crossing a very real line is bang on.  I described it to him this way... .you're running around a gym, you get tired, you stop, you can't run anymore.  I've run around the 'cold sex' track enough times, I just can't make another lap.

T

2. It requires pushing somebody to do something that they have clearly expressed a dislike for in the past. It doesn't matter whether or not anyone agrees with or understands his dislike of giving back rubs. I am thinking of it in the reverse. If a pwBPD were to persist at getting us to do something that we don't like, how would a "non" respond. Most likely, we would say "enforce a boundary". No matter how persistent the pwBPD is, keep your boundary. That is what is said time and time again on this site. So, why is it different in the case of a back rub? Her husband has said he doesn't like it and now she is trying to force the issue. Him changing the subject and suggesting things such as playing cards was painful and hurtful to her. But, if the tables were turned and it was him asking for something that she didn't want to give and she behaved that way, everyone would be patting her on the back for enforcing a boundary.

No, you make a good point, VoC.  But what is the alternative... .accept that he 'doesn't like intimacy'... .isn't that what this discussion is all about, not just accepting a lack of intimacy?

[Notwendy]

I take VOC's description as not a change in generosity but as a loss of hope.  It sounds like she used to hope that the sex would improve so she kept "taking one for the team" and once she realized it was not getting better, she really began to get in touch with how bad it felt.  As a codependent, I can sacrifice myself for quite a while before I realize it feels bad and icky.

This is my situation exactly. I don't get much out of casual sex. In college, a lot of my peers were happy with hooking up or being friends with benefits, but this just wasn't for me- I didn't want that. However, I let my H talk me into that. H would say " it's normal, other women like this" when I asked who those other women were, he'd say something like "everyone knows that". I don't know where he got his information from ( porn? ) but I allowed him to convince me that I was the one who was not normal. So, like Vortex said, I thought that if he got the kind of sex he wanted, that he'd be happy with me, but it wasn't good for me.

Ironically, doing it this way is one of the only times ED is not a problem. It is when he actually has to be concerned about my end of the experience that he has ED. In fact, the whole thing is different for us now because of the ED part.  Even with medication, the emotional baggage is there. The medicine makes him less fearful that something won't happen, but it doesn't make the emotional aspect normal. The ED aspect has changed much of this for me. If I get into the experience too much, then the experience is lost to me as he loses function.

Although I never liked casual hook ups, we are better when we are not too close. He is happiest when I don't expect us to speak about intimate subjects, and when he doesn't have to be too intimate with me in bed.

FF asked about hope. I can hope we will get along better because respecting the iron clad boundaries he has about himself, with the moat stocked with alligators around his boundary castle, to be absolutely certain that nobody gets too close too him results in us getting along better with each other. It takes a lot of energy to try to get past those gators and they bite.

I think we can maintain a relationship at that level. For something else, to ever have that deep connected intimacy emotionally and physically, I have doubts.

[Notwendy]

Rapt Reader, thank you for your post. Will that book work if only I read it? I ask this because when I was trying to fix my marriage, I was the only one reading anything. I have shown books to my H, but he won't read them. He says he doesn't have time. He doesn't have any interest. He's not shown much, if any, interest in changing to make the marriage better, and I know he won't read it.

In a way, I wonder if that was what was going on with my H too. There was someone else in his life but I don't know the extent of it. He did tell me she tried to seduce him. I thought that was odd since before someone tries to seduce someone, a lot of other stuff has to happen- talking, being alone together.

I have worked with men before, been friends with them, and even spent long hours at work, however, I have never had anyone tried to seduce me, because to me, there are a lot of other boundaries to cross before that point. My male co-workers would never get the idea that this would be OK to do.

Before anyone gets the idea that a reason for this is that perhaps I am not as attractive to him as I was, I am about the same size I was when we were married, and although I am older but not unattractive for my age. This other person was not exceptionally attractive, but she idealized  him and that was attractive. In fact, from some of her behavior with several people I wondered if she had BPD.

At any rate, I suspect there was a lot more, but how much more I don't know. I often think that painting me black was a way to excuse himself from betraying the marriage if that was what he was doing, and that perhaps, as you said, having sex with me was a way to maintain the idea that he wasn't denying me that part of the marriage, so he could continue to see himself as a good guy.

[Grey Kitty]

But what is the alternative... .accept that he 'doesn't like intimacy'... .isn't that what this discussion is all about, not just accepting a lack of intimacy?

I would suggest that if you cannot get intimate sex with him, and he doesn't like giving you a backrub, or the one he gives you isn't intimate... .or both... .

Start by accepting that he has real issues around being intimate. (For sure, being intimate with you, but most likely being intimate with anybody.)

And accept that you cannot push, beg, plead, or manipulate him into being intimate with you... .and when you try like that, the result you should expect is to be rejected, disappointed, hurt... .and likely cry yourself to sleep again.  

Still stick with your truth--that you want intimacy with him. And accept that it can only be given freely and willingly from him. You cannot take it from him.

... .you aren't there yet, but the next encouraging step may well be when you discover that your H does want intimacy with you, but cannot allow himself to do it... .for his own reasons that he's trying to work through. If you chase him less, he may realize that he's run away to a place that feels uncomfortable, and wants to come back.

[Grey Kitty]

In a way, I wonder if that was what was going on with my H too. There was someone else in his life but I don't know the extent of it. He did tell me she tried to seduce him. I thought that was odd since before someone tries to seduce someone, a lot of other stuff has to happen- talking, being alone together.

I have worked with men before, been friends with them, and even spent long hours at work, however, I have never had anyone tried to seduce me, because to me, there are a lot of other boundaries to cross before that point. My male co-workers would never get the idea that this would be OK to do.

Completely true. Sounds like you have much better boundaries than your H has. You are aware when things that are inappropriate for a coworker start to happen, and deal with it. It stops at that level.

A pwBPD doesn't get this. They blow past people's boundaries. They let people blow past their boundaries. And don't even notice until it has gone at least to the point of seduction!

[Rapt Reader]

Notwendy, I read the book myself--my Husband also will not read any self-help type stuff. Even with him not reading it, and not completing the exercises (that's the "Genogram" mentioned at the link I gave), the book helped us immensely.

In the parts of the exercises where I needed his input in order to complete them all myself, I just casually mentioned my own family history that I was writing down, and asked him if he remembered anything about this or that relative in the "family stories" he heard as a kid.

The funny thing, though, is that his Mom, my undiagnosed BPD M-I-L (where he got all of his BPD traits from), is the person who filled in the blanks for me the most when it came to the Genogram for his side of our relationship. She loves telling stories about her life, and I got like 90% of what I needed from her. Really eye-opening, and even not ever hearing about BPD in those days (the affair lasted from early 1985 to late 1987), I learned from that book and doing the exercises pretty much exactly why he was the way he was.

I think you would get a lot out of it, even if he never reads it. It would be helpful if your relationship is conducive to him sharing some family stories and events of his growing up (if you don't already know the ones that the Genogram would require), but it's not integral for you, to learn what you need to. Actually, the conversations my Husband and I had as a result of my working with that book really brought us closer. It was fun for both of us... .

[Notwendy]

Interesting--- I will read it. However, I won't get a thing from his family. The way his family operates is that nobody talks about anything. If someone is bothered over something, they fume silently and passively act it out. Nobody will let anyone know about how they might feel. As far as they are concerned, there is nothing to talk about, except that there's a lot of unstable relationships and other crazy things going on that are not acknowleged while they can go on and on about what vegetables are growing in the garden this spring... .

It's my mom with BPD that has stories. She could tell you all about what an awful baby I was... .50 or so years later!

[formflier]

 It may not of been a successful attempt, but it did bring the issue out in the open, front and centre, no longer to be ignored.   

Crumbling,

Hang in there... .it will take effort to "keep the light shining" on this issue.  And... .we can't predict exactly where the issue will end up.  But... .if we think about the "order to the disorder"... . you have now taken a stand and upset an equilibrium.    Expect efforts (from your pwBPD) at first to try to put the equilibrium back to where his comfort level was... .once he realizes that is not going to happen... .be ready with your tools... .be strong... . my hope for you is that you can direct whatever change comes out of his realization that there is a new equilibrium... .that you can direct that change somewhere that will help you enjoy your r/s better.

 

You took a stand... .!  I'm proud of you... .!

No, you make a good point, VoC.  But what is the alternative... .accept that he 'doesn't like intimacy'... .isn't that what this discussion is all about, not just accepting a lack of intimacy?

Another way of asking... .or a rephrasing this... .is what other alternatives are there (that we as non's control... ) to move our r/s to a level of intimacy that we enjoy or want.  

[Rapt Reader]

Interesting--- I will read it. However, I won't get a thing from his family. The way his family operates is that nobody talks about anything. If someone is bothered over something, they fume silently and passively act it out. Nobody will let anyone know about how they might feel. As far as they are concerned, there is nothing to talk about, except that there's a lot of unstable relationships and other crazy things going on that are not acknowleged while they can go on and on about what vegetables are growing in the garden this spring... .

It's my mom with BPD that has stories. She could tell you all about what an awful baby I was... .50 or so years later!

It's too bad about his family, Notwendy, but hopefully he himself will have information that can help with the exercises (they aren't hard, or "work", so don't fear them   ). In fact, all that matters is his perceptions of things, anyway, since those are what informed his attitudes and feelings... .

Your Mom will be an invaluable source for you, if there are things you don't remember or are "iffy" on so many years later, especially if you were not born or very young when they happened. My own M-I-L remembers things that nobody else has a memory of... .I'm sure some of them are a bit "off", but most times she's pretty good about them, and she's 85 now. If one of her kids was an awful baby, she's remembering it like it was yesterday 

[Notwendy]

Thanks, I ordered the book. Anything I can do on my end, will help me in the long run. It will be interesting to see the info in the book.

LOL the stories... .yes, there is one incident that happened when I was a teen and got in trouble for something, and still my mom will say "do you remember when you did this... ." like it was yesterday. and it's like come on mom, that was so long ago, it's not even something I ever think about.

[vortex of confusion]

No, you make a good point, VoC.  But what is the alternative... .accept that he 'doesn't like intimacy'... .isn't that what this discussion is all about, not just accepting a lack of intimacy?

One back rub does not equal intimacy. I know you know that. I have been where you are and will probably be there again because I know that this is a long process. Really, I think that accepting that he doesn't like intimacy is a step in the right direction. Taking that step is friggin' hard though. It was a couple of years ago that I realized that my husband didn't want me. I won't lie. I found a lover. It isn't right but that was my messed up reaction to the situation. It set off a big mess but the big mess has shown a lot of light on things about myself. Ultimately, that is part of what led me to finding this site.

I don't know if I did things backwards or what but I think I started looking at what I don't want. I don't want cold sex. Bam, it's off the table. I don't want him talking to me certain ways. Bam, I can stop that by walking away. What could I do? A week or so ago, he started posting ads and talking to women online again. I told him that if he wanted to do that I was no longer going to hug and kiss him either. I started taking things off the table because I wasn't comfortable with doing those things with somebody that had no desire to be intimate (physically or emotionally) with me. I would have liked to leave and get some actual, real space but I couldn't so I tried to simulate the no hugs, etc. After a couple of days, he decided to take down his ads and do some other stuff. While it isn't intimacy, it IS a step in the right direction. It gives me some hope.

[vortex of confusion]

VOC, I heartily agree that trying to solve this problem by doing sex differently doesn't work.  As I said, trying to solve anorexia by focusing on food doesn't work.  (I use that example because these 2 issues are the most similar in the brain).

GK, interesting.  I take VOC's description as not a change in generosity but as a loss of hope.  It sounds like she used to hope that the sex would improve so she kept "taking one for the team" and once she realized it was not getting better, she really began to get in touch with how bad it felt.  As a codependent, I can sacrifice myself for quite a while before I realize it feels bad and icky.

I think both of you are correct. To add a little bit of context to things, I have 4 kids. For 11 or 12 years of our marriage, I was pregnant and/or nursing. There were a whole lot of years where my days were filled with diapers and crying babies and feeding kids and stuff like that. I didn't really have time to think much about whether or not I was sacrificing myself or felt icky or anything like that. It is something I did. I was probably just as disconnected as him during those 11 or 12 years. It wasn't until I stopped nursing, the kids got out of diapers, and a bunch of other stuff happened that I realized what was going on. I think was somewhere around year 4 or 5 that he lost his job due to porn. We dealt with stuff at a very superficial level. Got busy having kids and promptly swept it all under the rug. Now that my youngest is 6, there are no more excuses. Everything that was swept under the rug is now coming to a head.

[MissyM]

Rapt, that looks like an interesting book I will have to check it out. There are two books that I really like Intimacy Factor by Pia Melody and the couple's guide to intimacy. Intimacy Factor can be read without a spouse's involvement, I got a lot out of it.

[waverider]

Sex is different things to different people, at one end it is the pinnacle of ultimate bonding of two people, you are one "unit" at that time and the rest of the world may as well not exist. It is the ultimate in validation, support and self worth. The ultimate in empathy

At the other end it is a thrill, a sensation, daring or even reinforcement of ones own power and appeal, it has very little real bond to your partner.

The nature of BPD can tend towards the later. As far as male vs female, these can fall in either option, though I think a male mind quite often has the capability to break things down into practicalities and cannot hold onto the purity of the former option as long, even in the moment.

This is not a golden rule as there is a whole sliding scale in between.

The real issue is that once the outside world (often by distraction or thoughts about self) is allowed to mess with the idealized bond, it leaves a scar, if this is allowed to continually happen the scar totally disables the ability to believe in the idealization any more. This shows and bonding starts to disolve as both partners start to go through the motions

As idealization is a strong factor in this close bonding sex, it explains why it is at its greatest in new relationships. If you can maintain a high bonding sex life it in effects re energizes a dose of idealization into the relationship. This shows by how you behave immediately after sex. Does the switch go off and straight back into "normality" and do you feel a lingering recharged warmth for a while?

[MissyM]

The real issue is that once the outside world (often by distraction or thoughts about self) is allowed to mess with the idealized bond, it leaves a scar, if this is allowed to continually happen the scar totally disables the ability to believe in the idealization any more. This shows and bonding starts to disolve as both partners start to go through the motions

Interesting.  I can see how that would be true in a relationship that started with high bonding.  Mine with my husband did not, there was almost no sexual bonding in the first 11 years of marriage or any the year we were dating.  We now have that bond and I certainly hope we will maintain it.

[ColdEthyl]

Sex is different things to different people, at one end it is the pinnacle of ultimate bonding of two people, you are one "unit" at that time and the rest of the world may as well not exist. It is the ultimate in validation, support and self worth. The ultimate in empathy

At the other end it is a thrill, a sensation, daring or even reinforcement of ones own power and appeal, it has very little real bond to your partner.

The nature of BPD can tend towards the later. As far as male vs female, these can fall in either option, though I think a male mind quite often has the capability to break things down into practicalities and cannot hold onto the purity of the former option as long, even in the moment.

This is not a golden rule as there is a whole sliding scale in between.

The real issue is that once the outside world (often by distraction or thoughts about self) is allowed to mess with the idealized bond, it leaves a scar, if this is allowed to continually happen the scar totally disables the ability to believe in the idealization any more. This shows and bonding starts to disolve as both partners start to go through the motions

As idealization is a strong factor in this close bonding sex, it explains why it is at its greatest in new relationships. If you can maintain a high bonding sex life it in effects re energizes a dose of idealization into the relationship. This shows by how you behave immediately after sex. Does the switch go off and straight back into "normality" and do you feel a lingering recharged warmth for a while?

... .ok seriously... is there anyway I can like... .have a waverider app? I really want to have your nuggets of wisdom for everything. You have an incredible ability of boiling everything down into an easy to digest formula.

THIS. This is exactly our problem. My husband and I have talked about it before... .he has said sex is just stimulation of body parts... .and I tell him to me sex is a part of myself I share only with my partner, so it means much more than that to me.  

[formflier]

THIS. This is exactly our problem. My husband and I have talked about it before... .he has said sex is just stimulation of body parts... .and I tell him to me sex is a part of myself I share only with my partner, so it means much more than that to me.  

And this... .THIS... .is exactly the kind of discussion that needs to happen... .with a focus on understanding the other person. 

Each partner doesn't have to agree with each other... .but hopefully if the "space" is created where each can talk about their views/hopes/desires for sex... .intimacy may follow.

More later!

[vortex of confusion]

To whomever renamed this discussion, I think the new title is inaccurate--particularly the "female discussion" at the end. I have known women who were as, shall we say "outcome oriented" as men and when I was young I was familiar with Waverider's description on occasion: "a thrill, a sensation, daring or even reinforcement of ones own power and appeal, it has very little real bond to your partner."

I think this is a bit different than the mechanical, spaced-out sex that we have been talking about, which certainly could be performed by persons of both genders.

Um, amen Cat Familiar.  

One of the things that I really enjoyed about being with my lover was the fact that it totally reinforced my appeal and abilities. There was definitely some chemistry between us too. There was NO real intimacy there. Lots of passion but no real intimacy. (I think most people on this thread know my story. Having a lover was the result of my husband and I trying out an open relationship.)

That is very, very different than the stuff that I have experienced with my husband. Even in the early days of our relationship, there was no real fireworks. I hear a lot of people talk about how great things were in the beginning. They may have been great because of the newness but they weren't great in other areas.

[waverider]

THIS. This is exactly our problem. My husband and I have talked about it before... .he has said sex is just stimulation of body parts... .and I tell him to me sex is a part of myself I share only with my partner, so it means much more than that to me.  

And this... .THIS... .is exactly the kind of discussion that needs to happen... .with a focus on understanding the other person. 

Each partner doesn't have to agree with each other... .but hopefully if the "space" is created where each can talk about their views/hopes/desires for sex... .intimacy may follow.

More later!

Being on the same page, or at least not assuming you are when you are not is a good start

[Crumbling]

I was on the site someone suggested about Intimacy Anorexia.  I hadn't quite finished when I got pulled away from the computer.  The next thing I know he's reading it.  I just said, I haven't really even looked at that site yet.  Fingers crossed, I just kept making supper as he read.  When he was done, he mumbled something about the place to put your email which I didn't get, then I heard the words you'll figure it out... .   ... .I asked him what he meant and he said nothing dear.

All I know is that the issue has now been planted in his mind in full print by Dr. Weiss , because what I read there feels a lot like him.  But how do I know if he's ' urposely' doing it, or if it's an unconscious thing.  He knows he does it.  That whole turtle vs serpent issue has been there from day one for us.  Our very first Valentine's Day together he bought me a wood sander, for his wood shop.  And our first Christmas, he brought back the band saw I gave him and got a scroll saw he never uses.  He knows he has an issue with giving freely, it really feels like he can't.  To think he's choosing to hold affection from me... .well, I just can't go there.

He is hugely in the red in our giving accounts.  He pushed me to continue to do physical work while I had a medical issue that caused tissue damage throughout my body because I did that physical work.  This issue alone is very hard for me to get past.  I can't believe people that cold exist in the world.

My hope comes from my beliefs.  Bible tells me, if I stay my path and not break my vows, we will be blessed and have good fortune.  I'm still in the r/s because we have had great blessings, in other ways over the years.  But we've also both fallen a lot, too.  Me most recently, and him over and over and over for ten years.

The last year was an improvement... .but is it enough?  The men in this discussion are right about one thing, we need to look at adjusting our ' oint of view' on the matter.  Facing the issue head on and really examining what we are willing to swallow and what we're just gonna spit out   would likely help.



I'm going to keep allowing myself to mourn and try to sort through the emotional loss.  I know that was what I was doing last night, anyway.  And what I've been doing for a while I think.  I just didn't recognize it.

I don't get angry at him about it anymore.  And I don't hold any hopes that he will change... .sorry but it's the only evidence I've seen, so why should I believe otherwise? 

I am willing to discuss getting someone specialized in intimacy issues, that's a great idea.  And I am glad now that we never went the 'sex therapist' route.  See, small blessings. 

[Crumbling]

To whomever renamed this discussion, I think the new title is inaccurate--particularly the "female discussion" at the end. I have known women who were as, shall we say "outcome oriented" as men and when I was young I was familiar with Waverider's description on occasion: "a thrill, a sensation, daring or even reinforcement of ones own power and appeal, it has very little real bond to your partner."

I think this is a bit different than the mechanical, spaced-out sex that we have been talking about, which certainly could be performed by persons of both genders.

So my original title, is 'no cold sex' a boundary sort of got lost somewhere.  I really wondered if I could put up that boundary, what it would look like and stuff.  I know it isn't fair to hold sex from your husband, but if you know your mental state is too weak to keep you out of nasty thoughts, what do you do?  Whose need comes first?

You're right, it's a zoning out that happens.  But that's really a different topic than what I intended, really.  I guess the only reason it wasn't my topic was because I didn't realize other men did this until this conversation took place.      I did initially ask about his cold approach to initiating sex, which I guess, is similar to having cold sex.  

We can actually have great super great sex, as long as the focus is on him. Takes two to tango... and we only have cold sex when I turn off the heat, because he cant seem to make heat happen.   He makes very little or no effort to turn up my heat.  

So my original title, is 'no cold sex' a boundary sort of got lost somewhere.  I really wondered if I could put up that boundary, what it would look like and stuff.  I know it isn't fair to hold sex from your husband, but if you know your mental state is too weak to keep you out of nasty thoughts, what do you do?  Whose need comes first?

Would it be fair to say "If I know I won't stay grounded, I'm not going to agree to sex in that moment."?

[Grey Kitty]

Would it be fair to say "If I know I won't stay grounded, I'm not going to agree to sex in that moment."?

It would be fair. In fact far less than that would be fair.

When it comes to refusing sex, to your husband (or anybody else for that matter!), I am very hardcore about consent and respecting boundaries.

It starts here:

Your body is your own.

Nobody has a right to "use" your body in ANY way that you are not willing to offer and give freely.

So if you do not feel like having sex with anybody (whether they are your husband or not!), that is the end of it. And the only right thing for them to do is to not have sex with you.

In other words, it happens only with your consent.

If you have to 'justify' withholding consent, then it isn't consent anymore. You don't need a reason to withhold consent. You don't need a good reason. You don't need a bad reason. You don't need to share your reason.


... .so... .if you feel like sex would hurt you (emotionally, physically, or in any other way), and do not want it, that trumps any need that anybody else on the planet has.

End of statement.