Is 'no more cold sex' a boundary?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Please tell me what that approach was. I know it's probably for a different thread but I've been painted as a sex addict now because of all of this. Not to mention the effect always playing Charlie Brown to her Lucy has on your self esteem. I'm sure it's not just a male thing, being made to feel wrong or broken because of a normal need for intimacy (not just sex) can do major damag mentally, I'm living proof.

Your response is typical of either partner having power held over them in the area of sex, money, children (sorry to repeat)

As I read your note, twice a month was something you could work with, but what was really hard is that she powered past you and the mediator.

I imagine you would have worked with once a month and probably other mutual conditions - but the power thing is very damaging.

And the flip side... .

Everything surrounding sex in my relationship has one big ball of confusion and none of it has made any sense at all. I have felt very, very broken because of my need to feel connected to my spouse.

[Skip]

Please tell me what that approach was. I know it's probably for a different thread but I've been painted as a sex addict now because of all of this. Not to mention the effect always playing Charlie Brown to her Lucy has on your self esteem. I'm sure it's not just a male thing, being made to feel wrong or broken because of a normal need for intimacy (not just sex) can do major damag mentally, I'm living proof.

Your response is typical of either partner having power held over them in the area of sex, money, children (sorry to repeat)

As I read your note, twice a month was something you could work with, but what was really hard is that she powered past you and the mediator.

I imagine you would have worked with once a month and probably other mutual conditions - but the power thing is very damaging.

And the flip side... .

Everything surrounding sex in my relationship has one big ball of confusion and none of it has made any sense at all. I have felt very, very broken because of my need to feel connected to my spouse.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[Notwendy]

I think Missy has a good point about fear- fear of intimacy and getting hurt. The gift part is interesting too. My H is generous, but where it gets difficult is if I ask him directly for something. His interpretation of that is that he is being ordered around. So, for instance, my asking him to kiss me, or asking him to come to bed ( pretty nicely- I thought a husband might take that as a pretty good hint ) was experienced by my H as an order, to which he felt that if he complied, he would be "pussywhipped" (his word for a husband whose wife bosses him around ), and so to make sure he wasn't, he'd refuse to do it.  It didn't matter what the request was.

The reality is that I'm not someone who enjoys ordering people around or taking advantage of them. This kind of thing felt very odd as it stopped what I call the ebb and flow of a relationship where people do help each other out- not in an imbalanced way. The best equivalent to me would be with one of my close friends- I could call her up and ask her to pick up our kids from school, knowing she would also call me when she needed me to do that, or check her mail when out of town, or any of the small things friends do for each other. However, I wouldn't dare ask my H to even pick up his own kids from school as he'd think that was an "order". So, I basically stopped asking him to do anything and instead asked friends or got a sitter if I needed help with the kids. There's now a "mind blindness" to asking him. It is so out of the question for me, I don't think of it. When it comes to intimacy, he wants me to initiate, which I do sometimes, but since I am so trained not to ask or expect him to do anything, there's a disconnect for me.

Gifts are similar. He does give me lovely gifts, which I appreciate, but when he wants to. There was a kind of ring I always wanted- and he could afford it. I wanted it for years and he knew I loved that style of ring. I'm not a big jewelry fan, and there are few pieces that I ever like, so it isn't that I ask for this kind of thing. Eventually he asked me what size and more info, so I showed him a picture, gave him my size. Nothing, not for months. I just figured he'd never get it. I considered just getting it myself. Then, one day, he gave it to me. I asked why he waited, and he said, he wanted to decide when to get it, not just because I asked.

Why not give your wife something you can afford, or a favor, or just come to bed "just because she asked?"

I guess it comes down to the idea that if someone has to ask, it isn't special, but I don't feel that way. If someone wants something enough to ask for it, then that must mean they want it, and if I am willing to do it, then it's a nice thing to do.

As to withholding sex, I knew that was a dangerous road to travel on in marriage. How I knew that wasn't healthy- my BPD mom told me TMI about her issues with my dad, and so I knew that this was something not to do. So when my H expected unemotional sex, I assumed that not going along with that would result in a lot worse. I thought we were doing fine in the first few years of our marriage. It was my H who decided he wasn't happy and that I wasn't meeting his needs- but that was all in his own mind. I was available to him. He wouldn't tell me what he wanted or what he was thinking. He went into punitive mode- withdrawing, raging, witholding, and used statements like "I'll never have the kind of sex I want, my sex life is over, and things like that.

[Crumbling]

This is a very significant juncture in a monogamous relationship journey. When you close the door on intimacy you are beginning to dismantle the relationship and that is generally a process that can get out of control in ways you might not expect.

At this fork in the road the choice is to rebuild or tear down.

Backtracking a bit... .what is the value behind this boundary and how have you be living up to it?

Here's the confusion because I'm not looking to close the door on intimacy... .I want intimacy.  What I dont want is feeling used by having sex with my husband that is cool and strictly to satisfy him.  How can I be dismantling something that isn't there?  

For the backtracking, I was asking about it, I haven't initiated it or anything.  But something needs to change or I will leave.  I am on the staying board because I want to say.  This is his 'choice' to not be intimate - I don't know if it's a choice, that's what I'm trying to figure out.  It is BPD or him?  Is there hope of change?  Would this boundary help to spark change?

[Rapt Reader]

For the backtracking, I was asking about it, I haven't initiated it or anything.  But something needs to change or I will leave.  I am on the staying board because I want to say.  This is his 'choice' to not be intimate - I don't know if it's a choice, that's what I'm trying to figure out.  It is BPD or him?  Is there hope of change?  Would this boundary help to spark change?

One of the things that is confusing this conversation is: Are we talking about a relationship between a man and a woman where there is some PD trait present, or are we talking about a relationship where one or both partners have a significant sexual addiction or non-conventional marriage?

This thread is asking about "cold sex" and boundaries in the relationship of the members here - most do not have a partner with a sexual addiction.

I think there is always the hope of change, if both partners love each other and can figure out a way to make those changes. It's true we can only change ourselves first though, and then the circumstances will be altered by our actions.

Lead with heart.  Not power.

Selfishness can kill a relationship. Losing your self in your partner is toxic too.

... .

I know that when my sense who I was got eroded and weak, my capacity to exercise heart was minimal at best.

As to withholding sex, I knew that was a dangerous road to travel on in marriage.

   Why are we thinking these statements need to be mutually exclusive?

Isn't the goal here for most of us to take actions that accomplish all three?

How do we do that?

[vortex of confusion]

It is my understanding that the topic is asking whether or not it is okay to set a boundary that says, "I refuse to have cold sex with you."

I don't see how this is any different than setting a boundary that says "I refuse have conversations that involve name calling."

Or, "I refuse to stand there and let you hit me."

Or, "I refuse to let you tell me what to do."

I don't think it matters what kind of relationship is being discussed. The same principles apply no matter what kind of relationship is at play. One partner wants something that violates the mental/physical/emotional well being of the other partner. It is up to the person that feels violated to figure out how to set and enforce a boundary that is in line with his/her values. Why does the fact that the topic is sex seem to change how it is approached?

Boundaries are about us and how to use them to protect ourselves. I have been rereading the Boundaries workshop to try to figure out why it isn't okay to set a boundary that says "I refuse to have cold sex" as long as the person has taken into consideration some of the points mentioned in that workshop at: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0

Defending Boundaries   Even when we live our values responsibly,  we can still encounter boundary busting.

When this happens, we should first challenge ourselves.   Counter-intuitive, I know.  <1> Did we make choices that were inconsistent with our independent core values?  If so, which was wrong, the value or the choice?  Do we need to change one?  <2> Have we been consistent in our actions and effective in our communications?  Or have we been sending a mixed message?  Do we need to dedicate the time and effort to clean this up (this takes time)?

We also need to look at all the options(s) we have to available to us to help us navigate back and stay true to our value.  I use the plural form of option because just saying "no" and taking timeout is not enough. Yes, it helps greatly in the moment, but if we are in a value hostile environment, we need to look at all the ways we can address that.

_______________________________

Workshop Objectives  The key discussion points around values / boundaries are:

Do I know which values are important to maintain my independence, autonomy, safety?

Do I know which values need to be yielded and compromised in order to have a relationship?

What are legitimate / fair values (vs selfish values)?

Do I know how to set limits in a constructive loving way?

How do I  know the tricks and traps? (what not to do)?

How do I handle it if someone is upset or hurt by my values/boundaries?

How do I reestablish a value that I failed to protect in the past?

How do I respond when someone is trying to violate or test my value/boundaries?

Why do I feel guilty or afraid when I consider defending boundaries?

[Notwendy]

Maybe I need to clarify what I mean by witholding. It isn't the same as setting a healthy boundary or saying no. It's using sex as a weapon. To me, it is the epitome of fighting dirty, and hitting someone in the place where they are the most  vulnerable. Witholding sex to me is like using the ST on someone but even more powerful.

A boundary is establishing what you want sex to be, and what you feel is abusive to you. In a healthy relationship, I imagine this is part of respecting each other. Saying "no" to your spouse in the event that you are tired, not feeling well, on occasion is to me a normal part of a long term relationship. Not everyone is always available all the time. However, the intent of this is not to punish, harm, pay back, make the other person feel bad. The intent of setting a boundary or saying no under these circumstances is to take care of yourself when you need to.

The intent of purposeful withdrawing is for the effect it has on your partner, and none of it is good. The person witholding has intent to harm, be in contol, punish, get the upper hand, just like someone uses the ST. Both are destructive to intimacy.

When my H made a case for wanting unemotional sex, my first consideration as his wife, the person who loved him, was to give him what he wanted. I felt that not might do more damage. He'd already accused me of "witholding" but this is not something I ever did. I did say no on occasion when I was pregnant and feeling yukky, or tired, but this was about me getting enough rest- and since I was available to him most of the time, I thought he'd understand. However, I don't think he knew the difference and he was the one who used "witholding" on me from time to time, so why wouldn't he assume that I would do that with him?

But I think, I'm like most, thinking that if I gave him what he wanted, maybe he'd give me what I wanted, but it doesn't work that way in a disordered relationship. I didn't know what I was dealing with.

[Skip]

A boundary is establishing what you want sex to be, and what you feel is abusive to you. In a healthy relationship, I imagine this is part of respecting each other. Saying "no" to your spouse in the event that you are tired, not feeling well, on occasion is to me a normal part of a long term relationship. Not everyone is always available all the time. However, the intent of this is not to punish, harm, pay back, make the other person feel bad. The intent of setting a boundary or saying no under these circumstances is to take care of yourself when you need to.

The intent of purposeful withdrawing is for the effect it has on your partner, and none of it is good. The person withholding has intent to harm, be in control, punish, get the upper hand, just like someone uses the ST. Both are destructive to intimacy.

I think this is right.

We start with values - what we want.  And when its sex in a committed relationship (where other options like affairs and porn/self relief are off the table), this is a generally an "interdependent" value - shared value - not a unilateral value. Something you define as a couple.

A boundary is like a fence around the value that that defines when you are either in or no longer inside the value.

So if the value is a healthy robust sexual relationship core - how do the two of you define it?  The husband may say 14 times a month - the wife might say 10.  So maybe its 12.  The wife might say dinner and candles. The husband might say quickies in the morning. So a compromise is reached. 

And the boundary may relate to all the reasonable protective things - no rough sex - no sickness or exhaustion - no observer, etc.

The important thing is that it everyone knows what to expect, the power as is gone, you're working together.

Its a nice simple model and it works when everyone leads with heart... .

So what happens when it starts to break down?

How do we honor th value, and stay in bounds?

[Crumbling]

Funny twist of events... .since BPDh has read the Intimacy Anorexia article, he's been supppppper affectionate, caring, kind... .I think he's rebelling against the notion that this could be him.  I'm lapping it up  

So this boundary needs to be set carefully, and with a clear knowledge of intent to heal the r/s.

[Skip]

So this boundary needs to be set carefully, and with a clear knowledge of intent to heal the r/s.

The value.

The focus needs to be on the values- shared.

The boundary is simply defining when it has strayed out bounds. Most of the time you should be operating inland of the parameter fence.

People who think in terms of "setting boundaries" they are often using psycho-speak to say to say "ultimatum".

[vortex of confusion]

Maybe I need to clarify what I mean by witholding. It isn't the same as setting a healthy boundary or saying no. It's using sex as a weapon. To me, it is the epitome of fighting dirty, and hitting someone in the place where they are the most  vulnerable. Witholding sex to me is like using the ST on someone but even more powerful.

I like that distinction. Because of my own values, guilt, etc, setting a healthy boundary to protect myself feels like withholding. It feels like I am being mean to my spouse. That isn't my intent but that is how it feels.

That is where it might be helpful to look at those questions in the boundaries workshop.

[Notwendy]

Skip, arriving at a healthy agreement- my needs, your needs, is something that requires two healthy people. With someone with a PD, any such agreement: my chores, your chores, my money, your money, our money, all of it is difficult because one is dealing with a moving target- fluctuating emotions.

I could look at my H, square in the face and say "honey, I love you, but I have a bladder infection" ( I keep using this example because it is so obviously something that is temporary, treated, but a "time out" sexually situation- it is most often caused by being sexually active, not abstinent, so clearly, sex happened, now it's time out. It is also not personal at all, and not a rejection in any way).

So I can tell him, factually ( like I have to every time) that this is not about him, that it isn't forever, and it will get better. It also isn't frequent thankfully.

One hour later, it's as if I never said it. He makes a pass, I say no, he's raging screaming at me. Other times, I think we have an agreement, only to find out later that he didn't hear me, or thought I said something else, or just forgot about it.

[Skip]

Skip, arriving at a healthy agreement- my needs, your needs, is something that requires two healthy people. With someone with a PD, any such agreement: my chores, your chores, my money, your money, our money, all of it is difficult because one is dealing with a moving target- fluctuating emotions.

I could look at my H, square in the face and say "honey, I love you, but I have a bladder infection" ( I keep using this example because it is so obviously something that is temporary, treated, but a "time out" sexually situation- it is most often caused by being sexually active, not abstinent, so clearly, sex happened, now it's time out. It is also not personal at all, and not a rejection in any way).

So I can tell him, factually ( like I have to every time) that this is not about him, that it isn't forever, and it will get better. It also isn't frequent thankfully.

One hour later, it's as if I never said it. He makes a pass, I say no, he's raging screaming at me. Other times, I think we have an agreement, only to find out later that he didn't hear me, or thought I said something else, or just forgot about it.

I live in this world too.  

With a mature person this is far easier than with an impulsive. And if you have a severe boundary breaker it takes time and perseverance - progress is measured in inches.

But isn't this the arena we want to be working in - no matter how flawed.

pwBPD work best in structure.  Structure works best with a carrot and a wip.

A wip alone is just a battle weapon.

Both sides can be really wounded when the other side says no as in:

 not tonight - rejection

 no, I don't care about your bladder infection - violation.

The good part of sex is about sharing right? The bad part is ignoring each others needs.  

How do we come back around to the good part without incurring wounds.

[Notwendy]

You got me on that one. Bladder infection is a good example because it has nothing to do with the other person and it is non negotiable. It's painful - and someone that uncomfortable isn't going to give in, be persuaded. "Tired" can be mixed with rejection . One could think that if the other person really wanted to, then they might.

I know that rejection hurts which is why most of the time I don't say no- even if I'm tired - because it's just an awful situation if I do. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if it hurts to even go to the bathroom that sex is not going to be enjoyable. Yes there are alternatives but who wants to do that when you feel bad and know you are doing it just to keep the peace.

Yes it would be nice if he understood but if that were the case it wouldn't be an issue.

[Crumbling]

We start with values - what we want.  And when its sex in a committed relationship (where other options like affairs and porn/self relief are off the table), this is a generally an "interdependent" value - shared value - not a unilateral value. Something you define as a couple.

So if the value is a healthy robust sexual relationship core - how do the two of you define it?  The husband may say 14 times a month - the wife might say 10.  So maybe its 12.  The wife might say dinner and candles. The husband might say quickies in the morning. So a compromise is reached. 

The important thing is that it everyone knows what to expect, the power as is gone, you're working together.

I get it.  This is the issue for us, we have no shared value on what defines our sexual r/s.  The key here is compromise, and he wont.  So how do we define our shared values.  What would the conversation entail... .we have conversations that are left with an understanding and then just as quick forgotten, and that's the issue we are dealing with I guess.  There is no capacity for compromise.  So how do we move forward?

[Cat Familiar]

I've seen a lot of posts about ED and claims that women are always ready for sex, but in my experience, it certainly isn't true and is yet another form of misogyny. Other than me, I don't think any woman has mentioned in this thread that sex (even without a bladder infection) can be downright painful. This is particularly true after menopause, regardless of lubricants.

To think that I should be ready for sex whenever my partner wishes is downright infuriating. Fortunately he is a very understanding man and doesn't pressure me. But I felt that I should bring this up for discussion because there are issues in younger women where sex can be painful too. This is often not on a man's radar, so fellows, please know that refusal sometimes happens for reasons that are not necessarily about you.

[Crumbling]

I would also say that my BPDh doesn't force me.  He pressures me, he coaxes me, he makes it clear what he wants, and I either go with it or dont, the choice has always been mine, and if I want to stop mid-sex he would also never force me to continue.  He would complain, and not forget, for a really long time, but never force me.

My issue, sometimes, is saying yes, when maybe I should be saying no, because of what I'm feeling in my heart and what's going on emotionally for me that I tend to ignore... .hence needing to be reminded of our right to choose.  This would be my lack of boundary... .the boundary that I'd like to set.


And Cat, while I was suffering from my health issue, sex WAS painful.  I said no a lot through that period.  He also masturbated profusely, and drank himself to sleep every night.  So I'm glad we're not still there!  Now is different, and that's likely part of my problem with all this now... .now, sex feels FABULOUS!  without my baddy in my belly any more.  And I am really frustrated that he wont 'make the best of it' and do things that would be good for me... .oh, I think I'm blushing... .

[Notwendy]

My H doesn't force it either. However, he can rage, or "pay me back" by the ST, or rejecting me the next time, or talk me into thinking that it's "normal" for women to be available and want sex all the time or some such idea. He also thinks that if he can talk me into it, that means he's really special. His argument would be that no matter how I am feeling, I wouldn't turn down a handsome actor that all women swoon over, so I should feel like that about him.

Yes, OK, I might think an actor on TV is gorgeous- like every other woman on the planet, but I know quite well that what is on the TV is not real and that a relationship with that person would not be like in the movies.

It's frustrating to think that to him, anytime I say "no" means I am rejecting him and trying to hurt him. I really don't have intentions to hurt him.

[sweetheart]

Hello crumbling,

I come late to this thread and frustrated as I wrote an essay last night in responses to a lot of what was being discussed on here. I then got logged out and lost my post

So I'm going to try again but shorter because it takes me so long to construct a response, I am way better talking than writing.

Anyway I was wondering can you reframe your approach to intimacy with your SO? By this I mean can you reach out to him to connect just in that moment and accept that this is how things are for him today ? Can you leave behind yesterday and tomorrow and make allowances for the possibility that this is all he can manage in this moment, that he is doing the best that he can ?  I don't mean that you have to suddenly park up any sadness or anger you may have around loss of intimacy in a conventional sense, but could these be dealt with elsewhere, T perhaps?

I suppose the thread got me thinking about how I have come to learn to accept how my h is in any given moment of time, I used to be waiting for him to be someone different, maybe better, more well, more like he was, more like I wanted him to be and so on. I was so traumatised by the impact of this mental illness upon our lives at one point I forgot what it really means for the person with this illness. Once the idealisation phase became infiltrated by reality for my h intimacy became for us a fluid ever changing affair. My h is intimately very immature, so I was struck by your comment about your h initiating sex with. ' I'm horny' my h does this and I have come to realise it is going to be difficult to move beyond this level of seduction. So I search and introduce intimacy into other aspects of our lives that don't involve sex. We used to watch a lot of movies together and always held hands, movie watching is rare now as his concentration is poor, but I still reach out for his hand, sometimes I just touch my fingers to his. I put my around him when he is asleep, I ask him to have a cup of tea with me and touch my foot to his. When I am driving he has always held my knee for the entire time we have been together.

For me looking to introduce or accept intimacy in other areas of our marriage helped me come to terms with the difficulties that my h experiences in relation to a 'usual' physical relationship. It's not that I accept less, it's that I understand and accept more and this takes the pressure of expectation away from him which has in the past triggered feelings of shame and then he withdraws completely.

I have changed my definition of sex and intimacy within a relationship with someone who had BPD because if I didn't I wouldn't be able to stay with my h. I choose to be the one who reaches out to him because I can see how difficult that is for him to do. If he rejects me that's ok and then off we go again.

So of course it is right to say no to sex if you are not 'in the mood' or feel unwell. Remember though that this will probably trigger rejection for a pwBPD so then we get to put all the usual skills and tools in place to deal with any fallout, just like we would with any other issue, rages, finances and so on. We get to be the constant, reliable regular partner that will help our SO's find their way back from their chaos.

And perhaps when your h initiates sex next time with his signature seduction style maybe just maybe it could be possible to accept that he really is doing the best that he can do in that given moment. So the choice is then yours to take his hand or decline with love until next time.

[Skip]

--- Crossed with post above ---

Have you considered the dynamics of emotional blackmail being at play here - fear, obligation, and guilt?

I'm not suggesting that your husbands are blackmailing you, but rather that your feeling those same dynamics - fear, obligation, and guilt.

We have an article on the site that talks about how to process these feelings and it might help to discus this here (can't link - using a phone)

It might also help to look at what is going on in the male mind too. Things can evolve in the relationship so that the man is struggling with rejection sensitivity and humiliation at the very point at which he is looking for validation and appreciation.  In other words, he is on the other side of the bed struggling with something as significant as the woman.  In some cases, more so.

Resolving all of this takes empathy on both sides and finding ways not to trigger the other person. It's a problem in many relationships and it gets worse when the partners withdraw or become intolerant.

It is more of a problem with BPD traits (rejection sensitivity) and NPD traits (ego wound). I suspect it to be even more of a problem with sex addicts as their self esteem rides on the sexual validation.

With "challenged" partners, the burden to resolve this, like everything else, falls disproportionally to the healthier partner.

Tall order.

Anyone relate to this?  

[Notwendy]

Sweetheart, you really are a sweet heart. Your H is lucky to have you. Thanks for your insightful posts.

[Notwendy]

It has taken me a while to see that what my H is dealing with is bigger than what I deal with as far as fear and rejection. It took me a long time because he keeps a cool calm and competent exterior. He also admires pretty actresses on TV. I think that's pretty typical. Stars are stars because they are attractive, so if we turn on the TV, and there is a gorgeous actress on the screen, he might say "wow". Now if he were completely obsessed over them, it might be wierd, but, he's a guy, and he has eyes, so what?

Sometimes I can watch TV with my daughter and we can both laugh at how we think so and so on the screen is good looking. Then we go on to something else.

What I didn't know is that this kind of thing could really inflict a wound on my H, that he's that vulnerable, that saying an actor is good looking is a serious issue to him, even though he can say that about an actress and know he's not threatening our marriage. I didn't think that a person I had a crush on in school years before I met my H would be a threat, but his yearbook picture was triggering. None of this seemed normal to me, but they hurt him.

So yes, every "no" does too, whether there is an explainable reason or not.

[sweetheart]

Aaww Notwendy thank you for that   I was concerned it would make no sense to anyone.  

It's been a long long and very hard road at times and as Skip posted it is a continual work in progress in all areas of our relationship.

Suffice to say that this thread caused me to pause for thought and change the way we managed something in our relationship today and I could see my h felt validated and held by this slight alteration to our daily lives. Who knew   and our day as a family was better for it.

[Notwendy]

Sweetheart, it made perfect sense to me. There were times my H would intitiate something in a way I thought was odd, but I see from your post that it may be his way of doing that. For years, I wished we could have a heart to heart talk, but that isn't something he does, and my attempts to get to that don't work.

Yet he will put his arm around me when we watch TV, and when he is talking about politics, he's sharing something imortant to him ( I don't like politics) but I need to listen to that with an open heart as much as I wish he'd listen to me about feelings.

You are a very wise person.

[sweetheart]

Yes to the post from Skip about the healthier partner. For me in choosing to stay because today I am mentally well and emotionally healthy I accept this as part of my relationship to be the one to reach out with empathy to my h. It sounds like a cliche as I write this but it's not in practice it has become our lives.

[sweetheart]

Notwendy I thought too that I could have those conversations but I realise that for now those conversations are not possible for my h. My h is also interested in world politics and I used to switch off emotionally as it didn't interest me and I realise now that I was shutting him down, allowing us to talk only on my terms. I then thought what if this is his only way to talk to me at the moment, what if this is all he can manage?  So I started listening for the meaning behind the words and also I just sat and listened.

[Notwendy]

Yes, I just recently caught on to the fact that my H expresses his feelings through how he frames a situation and when I take his words literally, I unintentionally invalidate him. I wrote some longer posts about this to Bloomer on her thread about her H being upset with her and expressing his problem with who would pick her up at the airport. That's not the issue.

I learned this recently when my H went on and on about his kid should be driving a truck. That snapped me into defense mode since his kid had just learned to drive a car, and could  not handle a truck. I tried to solve the problem by coming up with a way for H to teach his kid to drive the truck, but H didn't follow through. It was because that wasn't the  issue. The issue was that because he drove, it made him late for work. He volunteered to drive, and was mad at himself. The rest was dysregulation and projection. I also wrote about how I asked him to make a family visit brief because of bad weather and dangerous driving. I thought he understood that, but he felt bad about the short visit and raged at me for being the one to make it short. I spent years taking what he said personally, to heart, and just feeling so bad about why he felt I was doing those things that I never did. I thought I could fix it, but I can't.

All these years I wanted to know what he is feeling. He was telling me all along, but in a different language.

My H is very high functioning, but when it comes to bad feelings, he projects them outward and explains them in ways that are very confusing. I have now learned to listen to the feelings more than the words, and to not jump in and fix what he is raging about, because that isn't usually what he wants.

I thought he was some kind of monster when he is raging. Now, at that moment, he's a little kid, and he thinks I'm the monster.

[vortex of confusion]

--- Crossed with post above ---

Have you considered the dynamics of emotional blackmail being at play here - fear, obligation, and guilt?

I'm not suggesting that your husbands are blackmailing you, but rather that your feeling those same dynamics - fear, obligation, and guilt.

FOG has definitely been at play in my relationship.

Fear: Knowing that if I don't give in, he will be grumpy, will make comments about it, and will be miserable to live with. If I give it to him, then I know that will create peace and he won't feel rejected.

Obligation: All of the talk about it being a partners duty to have sex with a spouse, leads to feelings of obligation. It is my obligation as his wife to have sex with him. It is part of a healthy relationship.

Guilt: I feel bad because I know that he will feel rejected or feel bad because I am not having sex with him. I feel guilty because I am not fulfilling my duties as his wife.

I really want to comment on all of the comments that I hearing that say, "My husband doesn't force me." My husband has never ever forced me to do anything. I have chosen to do the things that I have done. That doesn't mean that my husband hasn't used sexual coercion. A person can be coerced into having sex without force.

I have pulled a couple of quotes from this conversation that are examples of sexual coercion:

My H doesn't force it either. However, he can rage, or "pay me back" by the ST, or rejecting me the next time, or talk me into thinking that it's "normal" for women to be available and want sex all the time or some such idea. He also thinks that if he can talk me into it, that means he's really special. His argument would be that no matter how I am feeling, I wouldn't turn down a handsome actor that all women swoon over, so I should feel like that about him.

I would also say that my BPDh doesn't force me.  He pressures me, he coaxes me, he makes it clear what he wants, and I either go with it or dont, the choice has always been mine, and if I want to stop mid-sex he would also never force me to continue.  He would complain, and not forget, for a really long time, but never force me.

This quote that I pulled is something that tends to feed feelings of guilt. It is assumed that women are always ready. If a woman isn't ready, then that could lead to feelings of guilt for not living up to expectations.

I've seen a lot of posts about ED and claims that women are always ready for sex, but in my experience, it certainly isn't true and is yet another form of misogyny. Other than me, I don't think any woman has mentioned in this thread that sex (even without a bladder infection) can be downright painful. This is particularly true after menopause, regardless of lubricants.

I found a link that gives more information about sexual coercion: www.bandbacktogether.com/sexual-coercion-resources/

Sexual coercion IS a form of abuse.

Something to think about!

[sweetheart]

VOC I don't understand your point about sexual coercion, has this thread said that it isn't abuse ?

Sorry if I'm coming across as obtuse, the issues surely lie with both partners here, both with the disorder in its use of maladaptive behaviour patterns to meet needs and with responses from us to acquiesce through FOG.

[vortex of confusion]

VOC I don't understand your point about sexual coercion, has this thread said that it isn't abuse ?

I have not seen this thread address whether or not it is abuse. I think people have tiptoed around it but I don't think it has been said one way or the other.

Sorry if I'm coming across as obtuse, the issues surely lie with both partners here, both with the disorder in its use of maladaptive behaviour patterns to meet needs and with responses from us to acquiesce through FOG.

Yes, the issue lies with both partners.

If a person is caught up in FOG, then it is going to be that much more difficult to address the issue. I haven't see FOG mentioned much in this thread. I was reviewing the FOG workshop this morning: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0;all

Also, if the situation has been identified as abuse, isn't the first goal to stop the abuse?

I was looking through the tools again and found the Workshop on responding to domestic violence: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61403.0

One of the quotes that stood out was, "Often victims may minimize the abuse or justify the abuse saying things like:

Well I have never been hit not realizing that there are many ways to be abused."

[hergestridge]

I think that anyone living with s pwBPD had been subjected to coercion in so many areas of our lives. Why expect the sex life to be different? I perfectly well why one would want the sex life to be different, for obvious reasons.

My experience is that everything is a fight for a pwBPD, until a different situation has been established. Especially if there is an obvious problem, or even a "complaint".

If you are going to try and establish a situation where there is no guilt-trip, no coaxing, no sulking (i e abuse) before fun-time, then i think you end up with two options:

1. Scheduled sex.

2. Sex with a non BPD person.

Just my two cents on this.