Hard day... Part 3

[Depression = 72% of members]

Wow... .Guys, I realized tonight my wife is more mentally unstable than I imagined.  I called her and she picked up the phone.  I said hey, I can meet you at 11 at (named the place), give you the charger and discuss the insurance.  She said real hateful, "What is there to discuss?"  I told her we can talk about it tomorrow but one of the things is the restoration of our marriage.  She said that she is not interested in doing anything different.  I asked her if that means she doesn't want to work on the marriage, and she said that all she "agreed" to was talking about our issues with a counselor, not working on the marriage (BIG FAT LIE) and I said that I hear what she is saying and at the same time, it makes me feel used.  You don't want to work on the marriage but you want to have my insurance.  She said it doesn't cost me anymore  to have them on but it will cost her 600 a month.  She said I can agree to give it to her now or she'll get it in a temporary orders hearing for divorce (which she can't).  I asked her if she filed and she said no.  I told her that I'm sorry that hers cost so much, but this separation is what she chose.  I didn't.  She said that me throwing her against the wall is what got us here.  I almost went through the phone, but very calmly without edge or raising my voice said, "You and I both know the truth."  I said in fact, you have hit me repeatedly over the years and I have had bruises.  She told me I was mentally ill and that she has never laid a hand in me and that she was done with the conversation, my blackmailing and hung up.  I was shocked.  She projected BIG TIME!  She is completely delusional and deceived right now.  It is heartbreaking to watch my wife self destruct like this!

[MaroonLiquid]

Wow... .Guys, I realized tonight my wife is more mentally unstable than I imagined.  I called her and she picked up the phone.  I said hey, I can meet you at 11 at (named the place), give you the charger and discuss the insurance.  She said real hateful, "What is there to discuss?"  I told her we can talk about it tomorrow but one of the things is the restoration of our marriage.  She said that she is not interested in doing anything different.  I asked her if that means she doesn't want to work on the marriage, and she said that all she "agreed" to was talking about our issues with a counselor, not working on the marriage (BIG FAT LIE) and I said that I hear what she is saying and at the same time, it makes me feel used.  You don't want to work on the marriage but you want to have my insurance.  She said it doesn't cost me anymore  to have them on but it will cost her 600 a month.  She said I can agree to give it to her now or she'll get it in a temporary orders hearing for divorce (which she can't).  I asked her if she filed and she said no.  I told her that I'm sorry that hers cost so much, but this separation is what she chose.  I didn't.  She said that me throwing her against the wall is what got us here.  I almost went through the phone, but very calmly without edge or raising my voice said, "You and I both know the truth."  I said in fact, you have hit me repeatedly over the years and I have had bruises.  She told me I was mentally ill and that she has never laid a hand in me and that she was done with the conversation, my blackmailing and hung up.  I was shocked.  She projected BIG TIME!  She is completely delusional and deceived right now.  It is heartbreaking to watch my wife self destruct like this!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[itgirl]

So sorry to hear.  I thought your wife were reaching out to you with the charger.  I think you are doing great under the circumstances but maybe your conversation was invalidating.  I'm sure the big guns will tell you what you could have said differently.

good luck with your day.  we are all here suffering with you.

[formflier]

  I told her we can talk about it tomorrow but one of the things is the restoration of our marriage.  

Maroon,

In my opinion... .she baited... .and you bit.  That was not a good interaction.  More later

[MaroonLiquid]

 I told her we can talk about it tomorrow but one of the things is the restoration of our marriage.  

Maroon,

In my opinion... .she baited... .and you bit.  That was not a good interaction.  More later

FF, I understand what you're saying.  The problem is, her story and lies change everytime we talk or she opens her mouth.  There is no truth in her right now.  I validated what I could at the beginning of the convo (the cost of the insurance) and she changed her story to be the opposite of what I validated.  Honestly, this is way beyond validation.  She doesn't know what the truth is anymore.  When she can say that I'm delusional, and she has never hit me?  I'm sorry, I'm not as concerned for my marriage at this point as much as I am her well being.  I am dealing with someone who may need an intervention.  The problem is, I believe she is giving me clues (inadvertantly) a little at a time of what she has told people about me.  I think what is keeping her "afloat" right now is the kids.  I'm concerned for her TBH... .I'm the one trying to change our situation, and she is doing everything she can to sabotage and make it worse.  I'm starting to feel like no matter how I approach this, I'm a failure... .

[formflier]

 

Not a failure... .

Please read Grey Kitty's post... .very wise words there.  Boundaries protect you... .

Boundaries can't "force" a change in other people... .neither can lessons.

They may help make change possible... .but ultimately it is her choice.

I'll get on later and try to give some more points...

[MaroonLiquid]

Should I tell her one more time where I will be for lunch and leave it at that?  If she shows, she shows and if not, not?

[formflier]

Should I tell her one more time where I will be for lunch and leave it at that?  If she shows, she shows and if not, not?

How did you guys leave it?

At most I would send her a very bland update... .something like... ."looks like I'll be on time for our lunch today at 12... ."

No question... just a status update...

I would not say ... ."looking forward to... ."

Remember... theory is... you are living your life... .going to lunch...   She has been clearly invited... .

You go about your life... .she makes her decisions.

Don't be critical of her decisions... .just affirm the decisions you make.

Thoughts on this?

[Grey Kitty]

The problem is, her story and lies change everytime we talk or she opens her mouth.  There is no truth in her right now.

I believe you. There was a time in my life where I was keeping a daily diary... .mostly about what my wife and I said and did to each other, as that was the biggest stress in my life by a long shot. The diary helped my sanity a lot--I would get distorted reality like that from her. I took to writing it in my diary as well. I don't have the energy to go back and look to see how often it happened now! When it feels like you are a victim of gaslighting, it is easy to get confused... .and easy to get really angry.

However, when it comes to your reality vs. your wife's reality, two things matter.

1: Never, ever, EVER, believe her reality instead of your own.

(I think you have this one down pretty well by now.)

2: Stop trying to convince her that her reality doesn't match facts. (Or your reality)

Chances of actually convincing her are slim to none. And whether you succeed or fail at convincing her, the attempt is invalidating--it throws fuel onto the fires her mental illness.

Or at least before you try to convince her of something like this... .ask yourself: What possible good will come of saying this?

[formflier]

 

Grey Kitty nailed it.

You also don't want to agree with it... .the distorted reality.

That is why it is helpful to use STOP to remember how to respond.

Sorry you feel that way

That's your opinion

Oh...

Perhaps you are right... (note... I personally don't use or recommend the last one... )

[MaroonLiquid]

I texted her this morning where I would be And left it at that.  She responded and said to drop it by her doorstep.  I repeated my last text and I said that I would not drop it at her door.  I showed up at 11, she came in a few minutes later and walked up to the table and said, "I want the charger so I can go."  I said, "Let's have lunch together as we have some things to talk about and she said no.  She started to make a scene by raising her voice (said that she will not sit down that she has meetings and I'm keeping her from work), started to get angry, and I got up, paid for my drink, and walked outside.  She walked to her car, got in, rolled down the window and stuck her hand out and started to cry.  I said, "Wife, whatever is going on, we can work through it together.  I love you. I didn't have the charger so I went and bought you one."  Handed her the box, she shut her window on me and she drove off crying.  I never yelled, raised my voice, was just even keel.  I sowed a seed with that charger.  That is the way I'm looking at it.  I did that out of the goodness of my heart.  I can't do anymore than that.  She then posted on Facebook a few minutes later that said, "Promises broken by a father to his children, that are not acknowledged by forgiveness asked, devastate their sense of trusting anyone.  Wow... .P-R-O-J-E-C-T-I-O-N!

[formflier]

 

I'm sure that was tough... .I feel bad that i didn't have time to work through more of this ahead of time.

The theory is that you want to "reward" good behavior and don't acknowledge bad behavior.  Since she didn't have a reasonable discussion with you... .I am a bit worried about this reinforcing bad behavior.

That may be a little bit of a transactional way to look at it... .others may have a different take

Here is the thing... .if she wants to make a scene... .she will make one.  You need to stay and live your life... .enjoy your lunch.  Her showing up or not... shouldn't affect you having a nice lunch.  The value of being in a public place is that it will be obvious to the world who is reasonable and who is not... .you are ONLY responsible for making sure you are reasonable.

I really think and hope that you get another shot at a situation like this and that you stay and enjoy lunch.  If there is mutual agreement to follow that up with a new plan for doing another activity... happily go do that.

So... I'm curious... .what was the reason you got up and left? 

Hang in there man... .you are pouring your heart into this... .I commend you for that... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Thank you for helping.  I don't want to reward bad behavior, and I can see how I could have done that.  She is leaving on our "family trip" tomorrow until Thursday so probably not another chance to see her until after she gets back.  As far as getting up and leaving, I dont know why I did.  I guess because it was embarrassing and I don't like those kind of situations.  I could have sat there and let her be uncomfortable and probably should have.  She got her way, AGAIN.  Wow.  I am curious as to why she cried though.  That was the first time in 5 weeks we've seen each other.  She is "stone" right now.  I am putting everything I have into this.  I love her... .I want her to know I'm safe. 

[formflier]

  She got her way, AGAIN.  Wow.

You have improved tons... .it will continue to get better. 

  I am curious as to why she cried though.  

If there is anyway to put the curiosity behind you.  Here's why... .

figuring out why "nons" do things can be tough enough... figuring out why a pwBPD traits does something... .good luck.

You can generally see where this fits into a pattern of behavior... .but I would stay away from finding out why she did things.

I WOULD encourage you to notice emotions and validate those. 

Just focus on her emotion... nothing else... .don't add any other thoughts or points... .

How do you think you could validate seeing her crying... .?

[MaroonLiquid]

I did say to her that it's obvious she's upset and that we can work through whatever is bothering her together.  I feel like I fail every chance I get though at times. 

[formflier]

  we can work through whatever is bothering her together.  

So... .that above part is the T... .of your SET.

Think about what you could do that would look like SE... .SE... .SE... .T... .or little t.

Practice saying it by yourself... .make sure you are talking outloud.

To be honest... .i still feel clumsy doing it myself... .

I think it was waverider that described SE (validation) as the oil that makes things work better.  It doesn't "fix" BPD... .but when things are this "cranky" in the r/s... .you need some oil.

[formflier]

Maroon,

Hey... .let's take a minute and pause... .let's think about you first.  If you remember reading other posts... .critical... critical... that you get that going in right direction before trying to work on the r/s.

So... .assume I know nothing about your story.  and the request below might be a good thing to break out in a new thread... I would encourage that.

Tell me about you.  Tell me about your emotional and mental health over the past year... .or longer if you want.  What have you worked on in IC?  Or have you ever been?

Maybe the title of the post is "where do I go from here... "  Sure... we may talk a bit about the r/s... .but mostly want to focus on you... .and where you go from here... .regardless of r/s status. 

Think of this as going to gym... .or going to the gym more... .or analyzing your workout routine to see what you need to improve on.

I think it would be good to let some guys with lots of experience look at your "workout routine"... .and see what we can do to improve that.

How does that help your r/s?  Women are generally attracted to confident, secure, men.  Maybe another way of looking at this... .  You can decide to keep putting the polish on you being "husband" material... .that is totally in your control... .  So... focus on that.

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon,

Hey... .let's take a minute and pause... .let's think about you first.  If you remember reading other posts... .critical... critical... that you get that going in right direction before trying to work on the r/s.

So... .assume I know nothing about your story.  and the request below might be a good thing to break out in a new thread... I would encourage that.

Tell me about you.  Tell me about your emotional and mental health over the past year... .or longer if you want.  What have you worked on in IC?  Or have you ever been?

Maybe the title of the post is "where do I go from here... "  Sure... we may talk a bit about the r/s... .but mostly want to focus on you... .and where you go from here... .regardless of r/s status. 

Think of this as going to gym... .or going to the gym more... .or analyzing your workout routine to see what you need to improve on.

I think it would be good to let some guys with lots of experience look at your "workout routine"... .and see what we can do to improve that.

How does that help your r/s?  Women are generally attracted to confident, secure, men.  Maybe another way of looking at this... .  You can decide to keep putting the polish on you being "husband" material... .that is totally in your control... .  So... focus on that.

Did that in the other thread... .Thanks for that recommendation!

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife called (yes I said called ,  ) earlier and asked me if I could help our son get our Xbox One working correctly (was having a Live issue) and I said, "Sure, not a problem.  I would love too"  So I talked him through it over the phone and got to talk to him and tell him I loved him.  That was a plus, and did something for him. 

[MissyM]

That is great, Maroon!  I wanted to tell you I went through something similar with my dBPDh.  He had shoved me and scratched me, and he then claimed I assaulted him.  Now that he is doing better, he said in therapy that he couldn't accept the things he had done because that would make him a terrible person and no one would be able to forgive him, least of all me.  This fed his denial and fantasy, even though he knew what the truth was.   He also said while we weren't really speaking and separated that when he would see me, that his anger and defenses would crumble and he would feel love for me.  So, maybe that is why form flier keeps saying to meet in person.  My dBPDh said seeing me in the flesh made him drop the negative fantasy he was having about me because I didn't fit that in person.   Anyway, just thought it was interesting that the advice Formflier is giving really matches what my dBPDh told me (even though it isn't what therapists said).

[formflier]

 

The in person thing has to do with my thoughts on what is a r/s.

Note:  Most will think me an extremist or and old fuddy duddy on this.

I don't have a facebook account... .people will describe online r/s... .I don't think there is such a thing

My life is much ... .much better once I got texting to just be about grocerly list items... .no more "text bombs".

Even speaking by phone... .not much of a r/s there.

In person is where it's at.  You can read emotions... get all the nuance of the conversation.

When you are trying to improve a r/s where one has BPD traits... .the ability to validate is huge.  Finding the right emotion to validate is best done in person.  Plus you can gauge reaction better. 

If you are doing some sympathy... empathy... .and you see some of your words having an impact... .you can double down.  Likelihood of detecting that via text is remote.

[MissyM]

And to be clear, he would paint me black black again when we were apart.   That back and forth was brutal!

[MaroonLiquid]

And to be clear, he would paint me black black again when we were apart.   That back and forth was brutal!

How long until that started changing?  

[MissyM]

It probably took about 5 months of separation (after he received his BPD diagnosis), we were both going to therapy at the time.  I was committed with therapy but he was touch and go.  This got him to the point of being willing to go to a new marital therapist.  Then all of the ugly truth of what he had been doing over a total of 6 months came out.  Only after that did we truly start working on our marriage, his mood was still not good until just recently but he changed antidepressants which help immensely.

[MaroonLiquid]

Update, so my daughters wanted to call my wife yesterday morning and tell them to have a great trip.  My wife talked to them for a bit on the way out of town and talked to me for a few.  I asked if our daughter got the birthday card I sent her and she said yes.  I told her to be safe and loved her.  She said ok., talk to you later.  I didn't expect anything in return as her family that she painted me black to were all riding in the same car (the kids, her mom, her sister and our daughter's friends).  Anyway, we'll see how things are when she returns.

[MaroonLiquid]

So far while my wife and kids have been on vacation, I have been really at peace and not focusing on the fact that I wasn't with them.  Trying not to get irritated that my daughter didn't call or text to say thank you for the card for her birthday before they left.  I know the kids are caught in the middle, but it still is aggravating that my wife didn't say, "You might want to call your dad and thank him."  Especially the fact that her biological father hasn't sent a card or called her in years nor wants to be a part of her life... .I feel like she is making me out to be as bad as their sperm donor... .

[Grey Kitty]

... .I feel like she is making me out to be as bad as their sperm donor... .

You cannot stop your wife from doing that. (Didn't somebody else post a thread: "How can I make them stop painting me black?"

Your actions will show the kids that you are different.

Remember they are caught in the middle if the nasty parental alienation games your wife is doing while she's painting you black.

Being younger... .and dependent on their mother, it may be a quite a journey for them to figure out how to resolve the conflict of reality here.

 Hang in there!

[MaroonLiquid]

... .I feel like she is making me out to be as bad as their sperm donor... .

You cannot stop your wife from doing that. (Didn't somebody else post a thread: "How can I make them stop painting me black?"

Your actions will show the kids that you are different.

Remember they are caught in the middle if the nasty parental alienation games your wife is doing while she's painting you black.

Being younger... .and dependent on their mother, it may be a quite a journey for them to figure out how to resolve the conflict of reality here.

 Hang in there!

I know I can't stop her.  Up until recently, I "had to know" why she kept doing it and now, I don't care because she has to be the one to answer for that seed she is sowing and be the one to make it right in the end.  I do worry about the kids though as they are caught in the middle.  It is affecting their ability to trust anyone and that is heartbreaking.  They may not be mine biologically, but they are mine and miss them deeply.  The alienation game is ridiculous.  I know it's about abandonment so they make them "trust them and cling to them" more so they don't lose them... .it's sad

[MaroonLiquid]

I am looking forward to my wife coming home, but not getting too excited as I don't know "who" she'll be when she returns.  We haven't spent any quality time together (not talking about sex, but more just "us" in 6 weeks.  Curious to see if she'll actually show up to our first couples T appointment next week... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Another thing, my kids want to see my wife as they haven't seen her either in 6 weeks... .How do I handle this with them.  I know she talked to them on the phone and told them she loved them (won't tell me that, but understand why).  They miss her too and ask about her and I have told her so... .

[Grey Kitty]

I do worry about the kids though as they are caught in the middle.  It is affecting their ability to trust anyone and that is heartbreaking.  They may not be mine biologically, but they are mine and miss them deeply.  The alienation game is ridiculous.  I know it's about abandonment so they make them "trust them and cling to them" more so they don't lose them... .it's sad

Another thing, my kids want to see my wife as they haven't seen her either in 6 weeks... .How do I handle this with them.  I know she talked to them on the phone and told them she loved them (won't tell me that, but understand why).  They miss her too and ask about her and I have told her so... .

I suggest you re-post these question on the Co-Parenting after the Split board.

Folks over there have been through this sort of crap a lot, and probably have better advice for you.

Keep posting here on "Staying" about your wife--we can support you here.