Middle of divorce confused

[Depression = 72% of members]

Bpd spouse has threatened many times over the years but actually filed and we both have attorneys.

I feel like it's partially my fault.  She has been making very bad financial decisions and I was so upset I didn't speak to her for a few days.  I think this triggered an extreme defensive reaction to her.  Once she filed I was so upset that I quit showing affection, I'm the only one that shows affection.  So for a month we talked in passing and slept in different rooms.  Now she's trying to move, take the kids, started a smear campaign, and asking the court for a restraining order against me to allow her to do it.

After all this I don't know I'm ready to end my family.   Some of the time she's the most amazing person ever and others the worst.

Currently we barely talk.  No communication,  everything through attorneys and its getting ugly.

If I don't do anything we will continue down this ugly path.  She is clinging to a new friend that doesn't really know her but is validating her views and loves being involved in drama.

Question is, is this something thst she needs me to show her attention and affection to bring her defenses down?  I'm 50 50 on whether to proceed with divorce, but even if we do it shouldn't be this ugly. 

I don't want to look back one day and say I didn't at least try.  Is this something that if I sit her down and calmly explain I love her that she might open up?  Or do I just need to keep my distance?  She's so angry with me and tells everyone how much she hates me, I can't tell if that's just an extreme cry for affection

[mikejones75093]

Bpd spouse has threatened many times over the years but actually filed and we both have attorneys.

I feel like it's partially my fault.  She has been making very bad financial decisions and I was so upset I didn't speak to her for a few days.  I think this triggered an extreme defensive reaction to her.  Once she filed I was so upset that I quit showing affection, I'm the only one that shows affection.  So for a month we talked in passing and slept in different rooms.  Now she's trying to move, take the kids, started a smear campaign, and asking the court for a restraining order against me to allow her to do it.

After all this I don't know I'm ready to end my family.   Some of the time she's the most amazing person ever and others the worst.

Currently we barely talk.  No communication,  everything through attorneys and its getting ugly.

If I don't do anything we will continue down this ugly path.  She is clinging to a new friend that doesn't really know her but is validating her views and loves being involved in drama.

Question is, is this something thst she needs me to show her attention and affection to bring her defenses down?  I'm 50 50 on whether to proceed with divorce, but even if we do it shouldn't be this ugly. 

I don't want to look back one day and say I didn't at least try.  Is this something that if I sit her down and calmly explain I love her that she might open up?  Or do I just need to keep my distance?  She's so angry with me and tells everyone how much she hates me, I can't tell if that's just an extreme cry for affection

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kells76]

It makes sense that even in the midst of separation, possible divorce, and legal proceedings, you'd still care about your spouse and family. These aren't relationships to be tossed at the first sign of trouble -- she's your wife and you married her for a reason, and nobody goes into a marriage hoping it'll fall apart.

If I'm tracking with you, you're feeling like you want to know you gave it your all, and it's looking like a "now or never" situation to put in that effort to see if you can make a change.

In terms of your questions here:

Question is, is this something thst she needs me to show her attention and affection to bring her defenses down?  I'm 50 50 on whether to proceed with divorce, but even if we do it shouldn't be this ugly. 

I don't want to look back one day and say I didn't at least try.  Is this something that if I sit her down and calmly explain I love her that she might open up?  Or do I just need to keep my distance?  She's so angry with me and tells everyone how much she hates me, I can't tell if that's just an extreme cry for affection

it is possible that there's a lot of fear behind her expressions of hatred and her impulsive decisions, so that's good that you recognize that there can be different emotions behind whatever words she's saying. That's not to say you have to be a mindreader; more to say that pwBPD often struggle to express emotions directly and functionally and in a measured manner, and learning to find the emotion behind the words can be helpful in turning down the temperature.

As fear of abandonment is a core feature of BPD, it's likely that she's acting out of a huge fear, even though it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy (she's the one who rented the other place and who actually filed for divorce).

You two didn't get here overnight, and to make things better would be a pretty big hill to climb, so it's important to be realistic about that.

Is this something that if I sit her down and calmly explain I love her that she might open up?  Or do I just need to keep my distance?  She's so angry with me and tells everyone how much she hates me, I can't tell if that's just an extreme cry for affection

We often wish that BPD was impacted by facts: if we could just explain ourselves well enough, that would make the situation better. However, that's rarely the case. My thought is that this is more a "process"/relational issue than an information/explanation issue.

If there's going to be a change for the better, it likely won't come from explaining verbally to her that you love her. It would have to come from your "posture" towards her, as it were; from how you relate to her, not what you say to her.

While realistically you may not have many opportunities to model a different way of relating to her, they may come up, so if you have those doors open, two key concepts to keep in mind would be:

listen with empathy, and

don't be invalidating

If you two go into an interaction and the first thing she experiences is you explaining something to her, she may feel talked over and like her feelings are ignored. It can come across to her as you explaining how her feelings are wrong -- if you are saying "but listen, here is how I've always loved you, look at A B and C", but she feels unloved inside, it's really invalidating -- which destroys relationships.

If you two go into an interaction and you are able to listen, refrain from JADE-ing, and find a way to validate what's valid (i.e., "it would be really hard to feel like I didn't love you"), that may be a first step towards turning around this trajectory.

This is a difficult situation and there are no guarantees. However, no matter what happens with your relationship, finding ways to interact with her that stop the bleeding and defuse conflict will be well worth it.

...

Had you seen those videos on empathy and (in)validation before?

[dtkm]

I wanted to let you know that I have followed your story, and while I am at work, so am short on time, I want you to know that your story seems very similar to mine, except our issue was parenting, not money.  My husband has not been diagnosed.  Things were horrible, he verbally "went after" my son (his step son) and I lost it, protecting my son and standing up for what I felt was right.  That was the catalyst for him to actually file, as two days later I was served.  I hired an amazing lawyer, told her the our story, she suggested that I file for a protection order, keeping both myself and all of the kids (ours jointly and mine) away from him.  I followed her suggestions, though my heart broke a little each step of the way.  As each step progressed, I would put the brakes on, after being granted a temporary protection order, I asked for reconciliation instead of going for a permanent one (where I probably would have gotten most of what I wanted).  We "tried" to reconcile, but nothing changed, we did nothing to make anything change...and by we, I mean neither of us actually looked at ourselves to see what each of us brought to the table.  Back to divorce court we went.  It was nasty, had to call the police twice, refused to let him take the kids out of my sight.  All the while something in me was saying, this is not what either of you want, this is not the future for your family.  I decided that in personal interactions, I would be the loving wife that I am, I would express my love for him and our family, I would invite him to outings that I would take the kids on, I would invite him over to see the kids and cook dinner for him when he was there, I would act as I wanted our family to be, but when it came to our divorce, I also held nothing back.  My lawyer suggested it, and I followed through, with the exception of don't let him in the house, I had a hard time with that one!  I told my story to the T, no sugar coating it.  He was ruthless, said some horrible things that were not true, but I know he feels that was in his fabricated thinking.  I kept thinking to myself, that no matter what, even though I didn't think that divorce was the answer for us, that I knew that I didn't want our relationship to be so horrible even if divorce did happen.  Slowly, things started to get better between us, but he held strong on continuing forward with the divorce.  We went through temporary hearings, which was not fun!  My lawyer was way more prepared than his, I was more prepared than he was, and I walked away with very good orders, orders that if kept, I would have been ok with.  The kids paid the price.  Separating our family wreaked havoc on all of them, especially our 5 and 3 year old...and still does.  Eventually, we decided that this was not for us and decided to reconcile.  There is a lot more in there that I can go into if you want when I have more time.  This time, I have decided that I can only change me.  I am truly looking at myself, and not getting involved if he gets "upset"... and his outbursts, have decreased a TON.  He realized the effect this had on the kids and we both vowed to never put the kids through anything like this again.  Who knows what our future holds, but that is our story...in the end, we put the kids first.  It was very hard having one foot in each window...reconciliation and divorce for a good amount of time, but I felt it was the only way.

[mikejones75093]

It makes sense that even in the midst of separation, possible divorce, and legal proceedings, you'd still care about your spouse and family. These aren't relationships to be tossed at the first sign of trouble -- she's your wife and you married her for a reason, and nobody goes into a marriage hoping it'll fall apart.

If I'm tracking with you, you're feeling like you want to know you gave it your all, and it's looking like a "now or never" situation to put in that effort to see if you can make a change.

In terms of your questions here:

it is possible that there's a lot of fear behind her expressions of hatred and her impulsive decisions, so that's good that you recognize that there can be different emotions behind whatever words she's saying. That's not to say you have to be a mindreader; more to say that pwBPD often struggle to express emotions directly and functionally and in a measured manner, and learning to find the emotion behind the words can be helpful in turning down the temperature.

As fear of abandonment is a core feature of BPD, it's likely that she's acting out of a huge fear, even though it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy (she's the one who rented the other place and who actually filed for divorce).

You two didn't get here overnight, and to make things better would be a pretty big hill to climb, so it's important to be realistic about that.

We often wish that BPD was impacted by facts: if we could just explain ourselves well enough, that would make the situation better. However, that's rarely the case. My thought is that this is more a "process"/relational issue than an information/explanation issue.

If there's going to be a change for the better, it likely won't come from explaining verbally to her that you love her. It would have to come from your "posture" towards her, as it were; from how you relate to her, not what you say to her.

While realistically you may not have many opportunities to model a different way of relating to her, they may come up, so if you have those doors open, two key concepts to keep in mind would be:

listen with empathy, and

don't be invalidating

If you two go into an interaction and the first thing she experiences is you explaining something to her, she may feel talked over and like her feelings are ignored. It can come across to her as you explaining how her feelings are wrong -- if you are saying "but listen, here is how I've always loved you, look at A B and C", but she feels unloved inside, it's really invalidating -- which destroys relationships.

If you two go into an interaction and you are able to listen, refrain from JADE-ing, and find a way to validate what's valid (i.e., "it would be really hard to feel like I didn't love you"), that may be a first step towards turning around this trajectory.

This is a difficult situation and there are no guarantees. However, no matter what happens with your relationship, finding ways to interact with her that stop the bleeding and defuse conflict will be well worth it.

...

Had you seen those videos on empathy and (in)validation before?

I appreciate your response.  I don't want to look back and think I didn't at least try.  If I try and she says no, well I have my answer.

She has no logic and I think has possibly disassociated her raging and manipulating me.

So I told her today this whole thing is getting ugly,  can we sit down tonight and talk.  Whether we go forward or not I think it would be better to be amicable.  She agreed we can sit down tonight.

The only thing I really have to tell her is I love her, care about her, and miss spending time with her.  That's all I have.

So when she says things like you've never loved me, and how I've been abusive, how do you not invalidate that?  It's all wrong I'm not going to say I did it.  It's just very sad how far we have come in life and she doesn't realize what she has and is burning it all to the ground.  My hope was if I give her attention and affection maybe she'll lower her defenses.  I have no idea.  I just know if anything is going to happen it has to be on me, she won't ever say hey let's talk, and I don't want to look back and say I didn't at least try.

[mikejones75093]

I wanted to let you know that I have followed your story, and while I am at work, so am short on time, I want you to know that your story seems very similar to mine, except our issue was parenting, not money.  My husband has not been diagnosed.  Things were horrible, he verbally "went after" my son (his step son) and I lost it, protecting my son and standing up for what I felt was right.  That was the catalyst for him to actually file, as two days later I was served.  I hired an amazing lawyer, told her the our story, she suggested that I file for a protection order, keeping both myself and all of the kids (ours jointly and mine) away from him.  I followed her suggestions, though my heart broke a little each step of the way.  As each step progressed, I would put the brakes on, after being granted a temporary protection order, I asked for reconciliation instead of going for a permanent one (where I probably would have gotten most of what I wanted).  We "tried" to reconcile, but nothing changed, we did nothing to make anything change...and by we, I mean neither of us actually looked at ourselves to see what each of us brought to the table.  Back to divorce court we went.  It was nasty, had to call the police twice, refused to let him take the kids out of my sight.  All the while something in me was saying, this is not what either of you want, this is not the future for your family.  I decided that in personal interactions, I would be the loving wife that I am, I would express my love for him and our family, I would invite him to outings that I would take the kids on, I would invite him over to see the kids and cook dinner for him when he was there, I would act as I wanted our family to be, but when it came to our divorce, I also held nothing back.  My lawyer suggested it, and I followed through, with the exception of don't let him in the house, I had a hard time with that one!  I told my story to the T, no sugar coating it.  He was ruthless, said some horrible things that were not true, but I know he feels that was in his fabricated thinking.  I kept thinking to myself, that no matter what, even though I didn't think that divorce was the answer for us, that I knew that I didn't want our relationship to be so horrible even if divorce did happen.  Slowly, things started to get better between us, but he held strong on continuing forward with the divorce.  We went through temporary hearings, which was not fun!  My lawyer was way more prepared than his, I was more prepared than he was, and I walked away with very good orders, orders that if kept, I would have been ok with.  The kids paid the price.  Separating our family wreaked havoc on all of them, especially our 5 and 3 year old...and still does.  Eventually, we decided that this was not for us and decided to reconcile.  There is a lot more in there that I can go into if you want when I have more time.  This time, I have decided that I can only change me.  I am truly looking at myself, and not getting involved if he gets "upset"... and his outbursts, have decreased a TON.  He realized the effect this had on the kids and we both vowed to never put the kids through anything like this again.  Who knows what our future holds, but that is our story...in the end, we put the kids first.  It was very hard having one foot in each window...reconciliation and divorce for a good amount of time, but I felt it was the only way.

Seems very similar.  I can already tell the kids are having a hard time.  They know even though we haven't told them.  I told her today,  we need to work on us and she agreed to speak with me tonight.

Issue is, she will go round and round in circles.  I'll tell her I love her and she'll start talking about that one time 15 years ago that she misunderstood something I did.  Once you start explaining that she's already moved on to well so and so said.  I'm so many years into this and I still don't know what to say.  The only thing I know is, if I don't start the dialogue she won't.  She'll get her new place take the kids and go.

The only time she ever came back to me was before we has kids.  She made a comment that was very inappropriate and I got up and left.  Next morning she was on my front porch knocking.   Doesn't seem like me walking away would cause her to come back now.  But what do I know. 

[dtkm]

I will say, we sat down to talk several times, it never worked…even though every time was initiated by him. It took time, it took seeing that he couldn’t run me over with the court system, it took my kids crumbling and us both seeing life “on the other side” wasn’t as green as he thought. My advice, follow your heart, but keep your brain turned on at all times with the knowledge that tonight’s conversation may not be the last of this kind.

[kells76]

So when she says things like you've never loved me, and how I've been abusive, how do you not invalidate that? It's all wrong I'm not going to say I did it.  It's just very sad how far we have come in life and she doesn't realize what she has and is burning it all to the ground.  My hope was if I give her attention and affection maybe she'll lower her defenses.  I have no idea.  I just know if anything is going to happen it has to be on me, she won't ever say hey let's talk, and I don't want to look back and say I didn't at least try.

A critical thing to know about true validation is that it is not the same as agreeing with something that isn't true or didn't happen.

Real validation is about finding what the other person is feeling, and empathizing -- understanding why they might feel that way, and how it would feel to feel that way. No agreement on your part is necessary -- only your understanding.

When she says something like "you've never loved me", the knee-jerk reaction so many of us have is to think that we're in a debate about facts, and that if we could just explain ourselves and "clear things up", that the issue will be solved.

The facts aren't the issue here, and if we get distracted by "setting the record straight", we're totally missing what's at the core of the conflict.

What's at the core of the conflict is -- she is feeling something and is sensitive to when her feelings aren't acknowledged.

She is feeling something inside, and due to having BPD, struggles to express those feelings in a direct and moderated way.

Whatever it is she's feeling inside, the way she expresses it verbally is: 'you never loved me'. Don't get caught up in "the courtroom scene' where you then have to prove that you do. It's a losing approach.

Instead, you can keep your integrity and honesty when you validate the feeling behind those words:

"That would feel devastating".

Notice how you aren't saying that she shouldn't feel that way, or doesn't feel that way, or it isn't your fault she feels that way, etc. You also aren't agreeing that you never loved her -- don't validate what's invalid.

You are just taking a moment to think: ok, what would it be like for me, if I really felt like my wife never loved me? That would hurt, I'd be devastated, I'd feel alone.

All you have to focus on is the likely feelings behind the words. You can keep it hypothetical: "If I felt like my spouse never loved me, I'd be really hurt".

Validation can also look like giving the other person more space in the conversation. This doubles as a way for you not to invalidate. When you say things like "tell me more about that", or "that sounds difficult", or "what else are you feeling", that shows the other person you are interested in understanding their perspective (even if you disagree with the perspective), and, it prevents you from veering towards JADE territory.

...

If you are hoping for one more "hail Mary" conversation, and are hoping it is impactful, it may be really important to head into it with the mindset of: this is not a conversation where you explain to her why and how you love her. This is a conversation where you do a lot of listening without judgment.

Again -- how you relate to her will probably communicate a lot more than what you explain to her.

It may be hard, but if you want to put in the effort, that's where I'd probably head.

...

Have you had a chance to look at the workshop on Communication Skills - Don't Be Invalidating?

[mikejones75093]

A critical thing to know about true validation is that it is not the same as agreeing with something that isn't true or didn't happen.

Real validation is about finding what the other person is feeling, and empathizing -- understanding why they might feel that way, and how it would feel to feel that way. No agreement on your part is necessary -- only your understanding.

When she says something like "you've never loved me", the knee-jerk reaction so many of us have is to think that we're in a debate about facts, and that if we could just explain ourselves and "clear things up", that the issue will be solved.

The facts aren't the issue here, and if we get distracted by "setting the record straight", we're totally missing what's at the core of the conflict.

What's at the core of the conflict is -- she is feeling something and is sensitive to when her feelings aren't acknowledged.

She is feeling something inside, and due to having BPD, struggles to express those feelings in a direct and moderated way.

Whatever it is she's feeling inside, the way she expresses it verbally is: 'you never loved me'. Don't get caught up in "the courtroom scene' where you then have to prove that you do. It's a losing approach.

Instead, you can keep your integrity and honesty when you validate the feeling behind those words:

"That would feel devastating".

Notice how you aren't saying that she shouldn't feel that way, or doesn't feel that way, or it isn't your fault she feels that way, etc. You also aren't agreeing that you never loved her -- don't validate what's invalid.

You are just taking a moment to think: ok, what would it be like for me, if I really felt like my wife never loved me? That would hurt, I'd be devastated, I'd feel alone.

All you have to focus on is the likely feelings behind the words. You can keep it hypothetical: "If I felt like my spouse never loved me, I'd be really hurt".

Validation can also look like giving the other person more space in the conversation. This doubles as a way for you not to invalidate. When you say things like "tell me more about that", or "that sounds difficult", or "what else are you feeling", that shows the other person you are interested in understanding their perspective (even if you disagree with the perspective), and, it prevents you from veering towards JADE territory.

...

If you are hoping for one more "hail Mary" conversation, and are hoping it is impactful, it may be really important to head into it with the mindset of: this is not a conversation where you explain to her why and how you love her. This is a conversation where you do a lot of listening without judgment.

Again -- how you relate to her will probably communicate a lot more than what you explain to her.

It may be hard, but if you want to put in the effort, that's where I'd probably head.

...

Have you had a chance to look at the workshop on Communication Skills - Don't Be Invalidating?

So when she says you never loved me if I tell her I can see how my lack off attention and affection could make her feel that way.  Does that sound along the right path?

I don't know that she'll go for it, but if I try and she keeps pushing forward then I answered my own question.

[mikejones75093]

Well I guess I'm an idiot that I keep thinking we can work this out.  Same stuff, round and round in circles.  Tried to empathize.  She's so stuck in her mind that we have to move and isn't backing down.  She thinks nobody cares about her, and I finally just said I hope she figures it out one day and that it's sad somebody thst cares about her so much is right in front of her and she can't see it.  I guess I said my peace.   

[mikejones75093]

It makes sense that even in the midst of separation, possible divorce, and legal proceedings, you'd still care about your spouse and family. These aren't relationships to be tossed at the first sign of trouble -- she's your wife and you married her for a reason, and nobody goes into a marriage hoping it'll fall apart.

If I'm tracking with you, you're feeling like you want to know you gave it your all, and it's looking like a "now or never" situation to put in that effort to see if you can make a change.

In terms of your questions here:

it is possible that there's a lot of fear behind her expressions of hatred and her impulsive decisions, so that's good that you recognize that there can be different emotions behind whatever words she's saying. That's not to say you have to be a mindreader; more to say that pwBPD often struggle to express emotions directly and functionally and in a measured manner, and learning to find the emotion behind the words can be helpful in turning down the temperature.

As fear of abandonment is a core feature of BPD, it's likely that she's acting out of a huge fear, even though it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy (she's the one who rented the other place and who actually filed for divorce).

You two didn't get here overnight, and to make things better would be a pretty big hill to climb, so it's important to be realistic about that.

We often wish that BPD was impacted by facts: if we could just explain ourselves well enough, that would make the situation better. However, that's rarely the case. My thought is that this is more a "process"/relational issue than an information/explanation issue.

If there's going to be a change for the better, it likely won't come from explaining verbally to her that you love her. It would have to come from your "posture" towards her, as it were; from how you relate to her, not what you say to her.

While realistically you may not have many opportunities to model a different way of relating to her, they may come up, so if you have those doors open, two key concepts to keep in mind would be:

listen with empathy, and

don't be invalidating

If you two go into an interaction and the first thing she experiences is you explaining something to her, she may feel talked over and like her feelings are ignored. It can come across to her as you explaining how her feelings are wrong -- if you are saying "but listen, here is how I've always loved you, look at A B and C", but she feels unloved inside, it's really invalidating -- which destroys relationships.

If you two go into an interaction and you are able to listen, refrain from JADE-ing, and find a way to validate what's valid (i.e., "it would be really hard to feel like I didn't love you"), that may be a first step towards turning around this trajectory.

This is a difficult situation and there are no guarantees. However, no matter what happens with your relationship, finding ways to interact with her that stop the bleeding and defuse conflict will be well worth it.

...

Had you seen those videos on empathy and (in)validation before?

Question.  You seem knowledgeable.   Went and spoke with her a few nights ago.  Not really about the situation or us, just kind of hanging out.  We talked for a couple of ours, got along, almost like nothing was wrong.

Next morning I get a message saying we can't complicate things and we need to keep our distance and only talk about the kids

I told her I understand but I would appreciate the opportunity to sit down and talk everything through.

She tells me she's done talking and she doesn't believe anything I say.

I get home late last night because I was helping cook a bunch of food for a family gathering.  She wakes up angry to tell me she thought I wanted to talk and this is why it will never work between us and she doesn't want to hear any excuses.  Just like old times I'm in trouble, joking but not really.  So she tells me she doesn't want to talk then gets mad I didn't?  Deep inside does she want me to talk to her?  And if she's mad, she isn't indifferent, I feel like love and hate are similar, indiference is when you are really done, she must still care at some level.  Am I looking at this right?

[SaltyDawg]

Mike,

I will validate what kells has been telling you, I am going to paraphrase it in my own way.

Listen with empathy - validate the feelings that she is having while downplaying the facts, where her version of facts are all too often a false narrative, like the accusations of abuse by her towards her by you.

If you want to reconnect with your wife you need to validate her feelings, while not paying too much attention to the facts that she is saying as you know that they are false from your perspective (and most other reasonable people as well).

Validate what is valid (her feelings), and do not validate the invalid (the false narrative of incorrect facts).  If you do, it will push her away further.

Express your wants as feelings (they are your feelings, and feelings cannot be wrong); however, don't express your version of facts (as she will likely see them as a false narrative that you are saying, as those facts do not match her feelings) as this too will push her away as this is would be JADE - you would be Justifying, defending and explaining your version of events in your civil argument with her.

You have to reach her at an emotional level as that is what borderlines are, excessive emotions, especially in light of the divorce.

She is likely getting advice to disconnect from you emotionally, and right now you are fighting an uphill battle to reconnect as she is in full time crisis mode, and as such, you need to communicate as though she is in crisis.

If this communication method is one that you have not used with her before, she will likely be very skeptical of your intentions.  So, each time you interact with her use, this same communication style of empathic response of active listening whether it is BIFF, DEARMAN, SET or other communication method that doesn't JADE.

I hope this makes sense.

As you are going through a lot, be sure to do a lot of self-care while you are going through the wringer with your wife.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[mikejones75093]

Mike,

I will validate what kells has been telling you, I am going to paraphrase it in my own way.

Listen with empathy - validate the feelings that she is having while downplaying the facts, where her version of facts are all too often a false narrative, like the accusations of abuse by her towards her by you.

If you want to reconnect with your wife you need to validate her feelings, while not paying too much attention to the facts that she is saying as you know that they are false from your perspective (and most other reasonable people as well).

Validate what is valid (her feelings), and do not validate the invalid (the false narrative of incorrect facts).  If you do, it will push her away further.

Express your wants as feelings (they are your feelings, and feelings cannot be wrong); however, don't express your version of facts (as she will likely see them as a false narrative that you are saying, as those facts do not match her feelings) as this too will push her away as this is would be JADE - you would be Justifying, defending and explaining your version of events in your civil argument with her.

You have to reach her at an emotional level as that is what borderlines are, excessive emotions, especially in light of the divorce.

She is likely getting advice to disconnect from you emotionally, and right now you are fighting an uphill battle to reconnect as she is in full time crisis mode, and as such, you need to communicate as though she is in crisis.

If this communication method is one that you have not used with her before, she will likely be very skeptical of your intentions.  So, each time you interact with her use, this same communication style of empathic response of active listening whether it is BIFF, DEARMAN, SET or other communication method that doesn't JADE.

I hope this makes sense.

As you are going through a lot, be sure to do a lot of self-care while you are going through the wringer with your wife.

Take care with self-care.

SD

I'm just not good at all this.  I've stopped trying to explain myself so I'm done defending.  I just keep telling her this is terrible and the kids deserve better.

[mikejones75093]

Mike,

I will validate what kells has been telling you, I am going to paraphrase it in my own way.

Listen with empathy - validate the feelings that she is having while downplaying the facts, where her version of facts are all too often a false narrative, like the accusations of abuse by her towards her by you.

If you want to reconnect with your wife you need to validate her feelings, while not paying too much attention to the facts that she is saying as you know that they are false from your perspective (and most other reasonable people as well).

Validate what is valid (her feelings), and do not validate the invalid (the false narrative of incorrect facts).  If you do, it will push her away further.

Express your wants as feelings (they are your feelings, and feelings cannot be wrong); however, don't express your version of facts (as she will likely see them as a false narrative that you are saying, as those facts do not match her feelings) as this too will push her away as this is would be JADE - you would be Justifying, defending and explaining your version of events in your civil argument with her.

You have to reach her at an emotional level as that is what borderlines are, excessive emotions, especially in light of the divorce.

She is likely getting advice to disconnect from you emotionally, and right now you are fighting an uphill battle to reconnect as she is in full time crisis mode, and as such, you need to communicate as though she is in crisis.

If this communication method is one that you have not used with her before, she will likely be very skeptical of your intentions.  So, each time you interact with her use, this same communication style of empathic response of active listening whether it is BIFF, DEARMAN, SET or other communication method that doesn't JADE.

I hope this makes sense.

As you are going through a lot, be sure to do a lot of self-care while you are going through the wringer with your wife.

Take care with self-care.

SD

Well I attempted.   She said she's done, she's not talking and it's time for her to move out and move on.   Apparently yesterday was the day we were supposed to talk.  She never brought that up,  but it's my fault.  She's only there when it's convenient for me.  No clue how to overcome this crap.  I just walked away.

[kells76]

Does she respond differently to email, phone, or text compared to in person?

This is a long row to hoe, so a big factor is how much you want to keep trying. It took years to get here so if you do truly want to turn things around, know that the first few times you try new approaches may not feel "successful" -- but that doesn't necessarily mean "it'll never work".

It really depends on what you're up for.

[SaltyDawg]

Well I attempted.   She said she's done, she's not talking and it's time for her to move out and move on.   Apparently yesterday was the day we were supposed to talk.  She never brought that up,  but it's my fault.  She's only there when it's convenient for me.  No clue how to overcome this crap.  I just walked away.

Mike,

You are not a mind-reader, how were you to know you were supposed to talk to her yesterday on it.  It's not your fault.  In order to overcome this 'crap' it takes a lot of practice.  It is much like learning a new way of communicating, a new language if you will.

You could try saying something along the lines of "I feel so overwhelmed by the divorce that I feel I didn't know I was supposed to talk to you yesterday.  I also feel that this will be very bad for our children.  How do you feel the children will handle this?  What do you suggest we do about it?"

I forgot to mention the use of open ended questions in my last post, this is very important too, as it will put her in the driver's seat to come up with a 'workable' solution.  This way it is her idea, and she can take ownership of it, and since it is her idea (even though you may have hinted at it, let her take the credit) she is more apt to actually follow through on it and do it.

As kells alluded to, it took a long time to get here, starting a new way of communicating will take a long time to get where you want it to go.  How much are you willing to do?

It sounds like she is done today, you know her the best, how long does it take for her to recover back to baseline?  Which day of the week, generally speaking is she least stressed?  Perhaps give her some time to cool off, but not too long before trying again.

Take care.

SD

[mikejones75093]

Mike,

You are not a mind-reader, how were you to know you were supposed to talk to her yesterday on it.  It's not your fault.  In order to overcome this 'crap' it takes a lot of practice.  It is much like learning a new way of communicating, a new language if you will.

You could try saying something along the lines of "I feel so overwhelmed by the divorce that I feel I didn't know I was supposed to talk to you yesterday.  I also feel that this will be very bad for our children.  How do you feel the children will handle this?  What do you suggest we do about it?"

I forgot to mention the use of open ended questions in my last post, this is very important too, as it will put her in the driver's seat to come up with a 'workable' solution.  This way it is her idea, and she can take ownership of it, and since it is her idea (even though you may have hinted at it, let her take the credit) she is more apt to actually follow through on it and do it.

As kells alluded to, it took a long time to get here, starting a new way of communicating will take a long time to get where you want it to go.  How much are you willing to do?

It sounds like she is done today, you know her the best, how long does it take for her to recover back to baseline?  Which day of the week, generally speaking is she least stressed?  Perhaps give her some time to cool off, but not too long before trying again.

Take care.

SD

I like the open ended question thing.  Will try it.   She keeps saying things like this is why our marriage will never work.   Don't know if that means she's pushing  me away to test me or what.

I can just tell the kids are not ok with this and it breaks my heart to see them act this way.  They don't know what they're supposed to say to me or to her but they know we are on different sides

[mikejones75093]

Does she respond differently to email, phone, or text compared to in person?

This is a long row to hoe, so a big factor is how much you want to keep trying. It took years to get here so if you do truly want to turn things around, know that the first few times you try new approaches may not feel "successful" -- but that doesn't necessarily mean "it'll never work".

It really depends on what you're up for.

Thurs night we talk and it seemed good.  She texts me next day saying we shouldn't complicate things.  I noticed she's googling marriage counseling.  So I'm thinking she's thinking about it.  I asked her of we can sit down and talk about it,  she says she doesn't believe anything I say but ok.  We never scheduled that night,  but she was real intense to let me know she was waiting and she's not Important to me since I wasn't immediately home to talk.   So she's hurt, that's a good thing,  not good she's hurt but if she didn't care she wouldn't be hurt, but immediately it's over we aren't talking?  Jeez.  Figured it was a good sign she googled marriage counseling.

[kells76]

I wonder if you can attempt a repair on that -- regardless of how she might respond to your repair:

"Babe, I'm sorry we didn't have a chance to talk on Friday. If I could go back and do things differently, I would. Moving forward, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on marriage counseling. Is right now good, or would tomorrow be better?"

(Of course, only say stuff you truly mean)

I'm also wondering if email might be a little better, because that takes "you said we'd talk at 8pm and you weren't there" out of the equation. With email it's an ongoing dialog without set meeting times, so it could be worth a try.

In that case, maybe you can send a repair email (or text):

"Babe, I'm also disappointed we didn't get a chance to connect on Friday. I apologize for my part in that. Moving forward, I found a link to this marriage counselor, what are your thoughts on her?"

It's not fair and it won't be fair for a while, but you may be the only one of the two of you with your head above water enough right now to make these repair attempts.

There's no way around the fact that this is going to take a lot of strength of character and resolve. If you want to turn this relationship around and keep your family together, it will likely take being the "bigger person" for a while, to get the two of you back on stable enough ground to make things healthier.

Have you read much of John Gottman's work? He did a pretty rigorous study of the ratio of positive to negative interactions that was needed for healthy relationships. The balance needs to be something like 5 positive for every 1 negative. Maybe that can help you with decision making in those stressful/blame-y moments.

...

I agree with you, I think it could be a good sign she googled marriage counseling. She sounds really conflicted. Time for you to be rock steady.

[mikejones75093]

I wonder if you can attempt a repair on that -- regardless of how she might respond to your repair:

"Babe, I'm sorry we didn't have a chance to talk on Friday. If I could go back and do things differently, I would. Moving forward, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on marriage counseling. Is right now good, or would tomorrow be better?"

(Of course, only say stuff you truly mean)

I'm also wondering if email might be a little better, because that takes "you said we'd talk at 8pm and you weren't there" out of the equation. With email it's an ongoing dialog without set meeting times, so it could be worth a try.

In that case, maybe you can send a repair email (or text):

"Babe, I'm also disappointed we didn't get a chance to connect on Friday. I apologize for my part in that. Moving forward, I found a link to this marriage counselor, what are your thoughts on her?"

It's not fair and it won't be fair for a while, but you may be the only one of the two of you with your head above water enough right now to make these repair attempts.

There's no way around the fact that this is going to take a lot of strength of character and resolve. If you want to turn this relationship around and keep your family together, it will likely take being the "bigger person" for a while, to get the two of you back on stable enough ground to make things healthier.

Have you read much of John Gottman's work? He did a pretty rigorous study of the ratio of positive to negative interactions that was needed for healthy relationships. The balance needs to be something like 5 positive for every 1 negative. Maybe that can help you with decision making in those stressful/blame-y moments.

...

I agree with you, I think it could be a good sign she googled marriage counseling. She sounds really conflicted. Time for you to be rock steady.

So over the years I've noticed the week after her period is the absolute worst week of the month.  All the rage and hate,  no fail.  Well guess what week it is.

When I try and talk to her I feel like a weak person just following her around while she does all kinds of other things just waiting until she has time for me which she doesn't.

I know I can be steady but I'm tired of following her around waiting until she has time which never happens.   I heard bpd won't devalue until they know you're trapped.  I'm sure me doing this comes off as weak.  If I say screw it i have better things to do with my time and start working on myself and doing what I want,  no longer giving her this lame attention, does that bring them back to the table?
The more I type this out the weaker I feel as a person. 

[kells76]

So over the years I've noticed the week after her period is the absolute worst week of the month.  All the rage and hate,  no fail.  Well guess what week it is.

Good information to have. Everybody has limitations: you, her, pwBPD, nons... everyone. She already has a lot of emotional limitations due to the disorder. It may just be that it's better for both of you to know that there is a cycle on top of that, where if there's emotional work you'd like to attempt, you need to check the calendar and be planful. She probably can't take the lead on telling you "hey, this isn't a good week for me", so this is an area where you might have some success, in the sense of "I choose not to schedule or plan emotional talks during the week after her period". I would not announce that to her, have it be more an internal personal thing. So success for you can look like not doing something -- you are successful at not trying to have big emotional discussions with her during that time.

Maybe you even keep a journal or record: "Did I try to have a deep discussion with her during the week after her period? No? That is a success".

I know I can be steady but I'm tired of following her around waiting until she has time which never happens.   I heard bpd won't devalue until they know you're trapped.  I'm sure me doing this comes off as weak.  If I say screw it i have better things to do with my time and start working on myself and doing what I want,  no longer giving her this lame attention, does that bring them back to the table?
The more I type this out the weaker I feel as a person. 

pwBPD can have a weak or absent sense of self. I have a hard time imagining what that is like, but the closest I can come is that everything feels unstable to them -- they don't even really know who they are internally, and so spend a lot of time desperately trying to find external things (people, situations, interests, styles) to give stability to their lives.

My guess is that "doing what the pwBPD wants" can be really destabilizing for them -- all of a sudden, it's their own wildly varying emotions (and others' responses to those wildly varying emotions) that are driving the relationship, which feels unsteady, which maybe feeds the desperation for stability.

There are different attitudes about "being stable" that a non can have in a relationship with a pwBPD. My guess is that the pwBPD can feel the emotions and attitudes behind the "being stable" and that can contribute to the relationship's tone.

If the attitude is "screw you, I'm doing what I want", there's a sense in which that can be more stable than following the pwBPD's lead -- you aren't chasing them, trying to make them happy, but at the same time, that attitude can bring contempt into the relationship (again, go back and check out that Gottman Institute link for a bit more on contempt).

However, if the attitude is more like "I am making an active choice to give both of us space right now, because me trying to chase you or soothe you isn't good for either of us", even though the actions might look the same as the above example, the tone of them is different.

It's kind of the difference between if there's a blowup/conflict and one partner says in a loud voice "Fine! Screw this, we never resolve anything anyway. I'm going out, I'll be back when I feel like it, do whatever you want", versus if one partner says in a moderate tone "There's too much intensity in the conversation for me right now. I'm going to take a break and [go for a drive, take the kids to the park, watch a movie alone, walk the dog]. I'll be back in the kitchen by 4pm."

That second option might be a interesting one to try, because instead of you following her around waiting for if she has time for you, you're making a statement about when and where you'll be available again -- it's offering an invitation to her to join you, in a way, which puts the ball in her court. As long as you're actually in the kitchen at 4pm, then the choice is hers to be there or not, versus her getting mad at you for not talking with her on Friday when she never said if she wanted to or not and never set a time.

...

Couple more thoughts.

-You know her best, so you would know if apologizing as part of a repair attempt would go over ok or not. It might be that eliminating the "I apologize" part and focusing on "moving forward" could be a stronger move.

-Serious question. When the two of you got together initially, what do you think attracted her to you? I don't mean "she was looking for a victim to control" type stuff. I mean serious, normal relationship factors. For example, when I think of my H, one of the things that initially attracted me to him was that he was really well read in areas that I was also interested in.

Was there something you were doing, or interested in, or a personality trait you've had, that was attractive to her initially? Has that dropped off over time?

[SaltyDawg]

I like the open ended question thing.  Will try it.   She keeps saying things like this is why our marriage will never work.   Don't know if that means she's pushing  me away to test me or what.

I can just tell the kids are not ok with this and it breaks my heart to see them act this way.  They don't know what they're supposed to say to me or to her but they know we are on different sides

With regards to your children.  They are understandably upset.  Reassure them it is okay to 'not know what to say or do'.  Do explain to them, in an age appropriate way that you have different sides, and one side is not better than the other (even if you think otherwise).  Do offer to get 'family counseling' for this situation - this will serve a few purposes, it will get your kids in a better place with a better understanding, and will give them a direction on what to say and do.  This will also serve you in the event that your wife tries to smear you where she might accuse you of alienation - you can show the court that it was your idea to seek out therapy - from my understanding the courts see this in a very positive light when a parent takes this route.

Thurs night we talk and it seemed good.  She texts me next day saying we shouldn't complicate things.  I noticed she's googling marriage counseling.  So I'm thinking she's thinking about it.  I asked her of we can sit down and talk about it,  she says she doesn't believe anything I say but ok.  We never scheduled that night,  but she was real intense to let me know she was waiting and she's not Important to me since I wasn't immediately home to talk.   So she's hurt, that's a good thing,  not good she's hurt but if she didn't care she wouldn't be hurt, but immediately it's over we aren't talking?  Jeez.  Figured it was a good sign she googled marriage counseling.

It is a very good sign that she google'd 'marriage counseling'.  Not all marriage counseling is the same.  Most have a 50% success rate, and are not too successful.  If your wife, has any OCPD tendencies (like to follow the rules to the letter), a dBPD-T recommended a program to me that is a good fit for borderline personalities, provided that they follow through with it as it addresses many of the issues borderlines have with their partners, and the partners with them.  My wife professes she wants to do it; however, when push comes to shove, she doesn't follow through on it.  "His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage" by Willard F. Harley is the book,  Dr. Harley deviates from normal marriage counseling - I don't agree with everything he says, but it is very well thought out and is very analytical.  Dr. Harley says he has a 100% track record if his method is followed, and from what I have read it is about 80% successful. 

Perhaps buy a copy, put postie notes in it with sections you like, strategically place it where your wife sees what you are reading and she might take notice - I know mine did, and she liked this.

I feel that your wife is having conflicting emotions, just as you are likely having them too - this is natural for this very stressful dynamic.  My question to you, is what can you do to sway, or nudge, your wife in a direction that is beneficial for you and your children?  The 'book' was enough to get my wife's attention back in March, even though I had read it a lot earlier.

So over the years I've noticed the week after her period is the absolute worst week of the month.  All the rage and hate,  no fail.  Well guess what week it is.

When I try and talk to her I feel like a weak person just following her around while she does all kinds of other things just waiting until she has time for me which she doesn't.

I know I can be steady but I'm tired of following her around waiting until she has time which never happens.   I heard bpd won't devalue until they know you're trapped.  I'm sure me doing this comes off as weak.  If I say screw it i have better things to do with my time and start working on myself and doing what I want,  no longer giving her this lame attention, does that bring them back to the table?

The more I type this out the weaker I feel as a person.

I have noticed the same exact behavior in my wife, the hormonal changes for that time of the month is a major trigger for her, makes it about 3x worse than if she is not having her menses.  My wife has elected to stop them medically, but they still happen, with a lot less predictability, and only a few times per year now - as she also noticed the correlation.

Regarding "I heard bpd won't devalue until they know you're trapped" - I feel that is a true statement, as my wife didn't do the major devalue, until the day we found out that we were pregnant with our first child when she knew she had my full obligation as there was now an unborn child in the mix.  She initially tried, a couple weeks after our honeymoon, and again, when we combined houses after I  sold my house and moved into hers, but each time I accused her of baiting and switching and she point blanked ask me if I was reconsidering which answered in the affirmative after I accused her of baiting and switching me.  I was very confused back then, but I had no idea what was happening, but she reverted back to the  love-bombing each time until we found out we were pregnant, and then the love bombing abruptly stopped abruptly.

Since it is this time of the month, I would suggest waiting until it is no longer that time of the month before having another conversation on this topic.  However, if you want to do a hail mary save on your marriage, do positive stuff that your wife likes, without JADE.  Do follow the advice in the following article:  https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/.  Do validate her feelings, don't validate the invalid (e.g. the false narrative).  Focus on the positive to bring her back to the table, if that is what you want.  Dr. Harley recommends doing the things that you did for her in your courtship phase, and spend at least 15 to 30 hours per week together to save the marriage.  It's a lot of work.  It is the best I can come with, and like life, there are no guarantees.  You only can do your best.

Take care with self-care.

SD


P.S.  If she doesn't like the "His Needs, Her Needs" (HNHN) book.  You could try a different tact, one designed specifically for high conflict relationships - "The High-Conflict Couple: Dialectical Behavior Therapy Guide to Finding Peace, Intimacy" by Alan E. Fruzzetti that has similar concepts to HNHN book, but with the intended audience where one or both partners have a PD and is much more clinical in nature.  I have and use both books.

[mikejones75093]

Good information to have. Everybody has limitations: you, her, pwBPD, nons... everyone. She already has a lot of emotional limitations due to the disorder. It may just be that it's better for both of you to know that there is a cycle on top of that, where if there's emotional work you'd like to attempt, you need to check the calendar and be planful. She probably can't take the lead on telling you "hey, this isn't a good week for me", so this is an area where you might have some success, in the sense of "I choose not to schedule or plan emotional talks during the week after her period". I would not announce that to her, have it be more an internal personal thing. So success for you can look like not doing something -- you are successful at not trying to have big emotional discussions with her during that time.

Maybe you even keep a journal or record: "Did I try to have a deep discussion with her during the week after her period? No? That is a success".

pwBPD can have a weak or absent sense of self. I have a hard time imagining what that is like, but the closest I can come is that everything feels unstable to them -- they don't even really know who they are internally, and so spend a lot of time desperately trying to find external things (people, situations, interests, styles) to give stability to their lives.

My guess is that "doing what the pwBPD wants" can be really destabilizing for them -- all of a sudden, it's their own wildly varying emotions (and others' responses to those wildly varying emotions) that are driving the relationship, which feels unsteady, which maybe feeds the desperation for stability.

There are different attitudes about "being stable" that a non can have in a relationship with a pwBPD. My guess is that the pwBPD can feel the emotions and attitudes behind the "being stable" and that can contribute to the relationship's tone.

If the attitude is "screw you, I'm doing what I want", there's a sense in which that can be more stable than following the pwBPD's lead -- you aren't chasing them, trying to make them happy, but at the same time, that attitude can bring contempt into the relationship (again, go back and check out that Gottman Institute link for a bit more on contempt).

However, if the attitude is more like "I am making an active choice to give both of us space right now, because me trying to chase you or soothe you isn't good for either of us", even though the actions might look the same as the above example, the tone of them is different.

It's kind of the difference between if there's a blowup/conflict and one partner says in a loud voice "Fine! Screw this, we never resolve anything anyway. I'm going out, I'll be back when I feel like it, do whatever you want", versus if one partner says in a moderate tone "There's too much intensity in the conversation for me right now. I'm going to take a break and [go for a drive, take the kids to the park, watch a movie alone, walk the dog]. I'll be back in the kitchen by 4pm."

That second option might be a interesting one to try, because instead of you following her around waiting for if she has time for you, you're making a statement about when and where you'll be available again -- it's offering an invitation to her to join you, in a way, which puts the ball in her court. As long as you're actually in the kitchen at 4pm, then the choice is hers to be there or not, versus her getting mad at you for not talking with her on Friday when she never said if she wanted to or not and never set a time.

...

Couple more thoughts.

-You know her best, so you would know if apologizing as part of a repair attempt would go over ok or not. It might be that eliminating the "I apologize" part and focusing on "moving forward" could be a stronger move.

-Serious question. When the two of you got together initially, what do you think attracted her to you? I don't mean "she was looking for a victim to control" type stuff. I mean serious, normal relationship factors. For example, when I think of my H, one of the things that initially attracted me to him was that he was really well read in areas that I was also interested in.

Was there something you were doing, or interested in, or a personality trait you've had, that was attractive to her initially? Has that dropped off over time?

When we first went out she was beautiful and mirrored everything I wanted.   She wanted a family and it's what I was looking for also.   Moved in and pregnant in less than a year.

She rented her house, got moving boxes and is starting to pack.  We go to court soon to find out custody and once that happens she's gone.

She's not the type that if I move on with my life that she will come back.   She would have to admit she was wrong and she's never done that.

So I walk in,  tell her I love her and we need to reconsider this.   She just goes into a million things.  I'm not a nice person, I don't do what's best for the kids and they are suffering, when she's around the kids thrive.   There is nothing wrong with our kids.  They are just fine if not slightly spoiled.

She is going so far backwards just to get away.  For someone that fears abandonment this just doesn't make sense to me.  Definitely the wrong week for this,  I've cleaned the whole house for her to come home and tell me it's trashed, but she's probably gone next week.  I think my own fear of being alone is somewhat messing with me.  Dating sounds horrible.

As bad as she is 1 week a month, she's also amazing 1 week a month.  Definitely not boring and we've had some great times.

Just wish I knew what to say to her to get her to calm down these impulsive decisions. 

[mikejones75093]

With regards to your children.  They are understandably upset.  Reassure them it is okay to 'not know what to say or do'.  Do explain to them, in an age appropriate way that you have different sides, and one side is not better than the other (even if you think otherwise).  Do offer to get 'family counseling' for this situation - this will serve a few purposes, it will get your kids in a better place with a better understanding, and will give them a direction on what to say and do.  This will also serve you in the event that your wife tries to smear you where she might accuse you of alienation - you can show the court that it was your idea to seek out therapy - from my understanding the courts see this in a very positive light when a parent takes this route.

It is a very good sign that she google'd 'marriage counseling'.  Not all marriage counseling is the same.  Most have a 50% success rate, and are not too successful.  If your wife, has any OCPD tendencies (like to follow the rules to the letter), a dBPD-T recommended a program to me that is a good fit for borderline personalities, provided that they follow through with it as it addresses many of the issues borderlines have with their partners, and the partners with them.  My wife professes she wants to do it; however, when push comes to shove, she doesn't follow through on it.  "His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage" by Willard F. Harley is the book,  Dr. Harley deviates from normal marriage counseling - I don't agree with everything he says, but it is very well thought out and is very analytical.  Dr. Harley says he has a 100% track record if his method is followed, and from what I have read it is about 80% successful. 

Perhaps buy a copy, put postie notes in it with sections you like, strategically place it where your wife sees what you are reading and she might take notice - I know mine did, and she liked this.

I feel that your wife is having conflicting emotions, just as you are likely having them too - this is natural for this very stressful dynamic.  My question to you, is what can you do to sway, or nudge, your wife in a direction that is beneficial for you and your children?  The 'book' was enough to get my wife's attention back in March, even though I had read it a lot earlier.


I have noticed the same exact behavior in my wife, the hormonal changes for that time of the month is a major trigger for her, makes it about 3x worse than if she is not having her menses.  My wife has elected to stop them medically, but they still happen, with a lot less predictability, and only a few times per year now - as she also noticed the correlation.

Regarding "I heard bpd won't devalue until they know you're trapped" - I feel that is a true statement, as my wife didn't do the major devalue, until the day we found out that we were pregnant with our first child when she knew she had my full obligation as there was now an unborn child in the mix.  She initially tried, a couple weeks after our honeymoon, and again, when we combined houses after I  sold my house and moved into hers, but each time I accused her of baiting and switching and she point blanked ask me if I was reconsidering which answered in the affirmative after I accused her of baiting and switching me.  I was very confused back then, but I had no idea what was happening, but she reverted back to the  love-bombing each time until we found out we were pregnant, and then the love bombing abruptly stopped abruptly.

Since it is this time of the month, I would suggest waiting until it is no longer that time of the month before having another conversation on this topic.  However, if you want to do a hail mary save on your marriage, do positive stuff that your wife likes, without JADE.  Do follow the advice in the following article:  https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/.  Do validate her feelings, don't validate the invalid (e.g. the false narrative).  Focus on the positive to bring her back to the table, if that is what you want.  Dr. Harley recommends doing the things that you did for her in your courtship phase, and spend at least 15 to 30 hours per week together to save the marriage.  It's a lot of work.  It is the best I can come with, and like life, there are no guarantees.  You only can do your best.

Take care with self-care.

SD


P.S.  If she doesn't like the "His Needs, Her Needs" (HNHN) book.  You could try a different tact, one designed specifically for high conflict relationships - "The High-Conflict Couple: Dialectical Behavior Therapy Guide to Finding Peace, Intimacy" by Alan E. Fruzzetti that has similar concepts to HNHN book, but with the intended audience where one or both partners have a PD and is much more clinical in nature.  I have and use both books.

I'll check those books out.  I just know we go to court next week and she already has a house rented.  Boxing things up today.  Once she's gone I don't know she'll ever come back.
Normally when people don't want to be around me I'll figure something else to do.   With girlfriends of the past me moving on always brought them back, at that point I was done.  This one is harder to move on from but I feel like if I quit giving her attention and go do my own thing, she'll do the same.  Don't know she'll try and come back. 

[SaltyDawg]

I'll check those books out.  I just know we go to court next week and she already has a house rented.  Boxing things up today.  Once she's gone I don't know she'll ever come back.
Normally when people don't want to be around me I'll figure something else to do.   With girlfriends of the past me moving on always brought them back, at that point I was done.  This one is harder to move on from but I feel like if I quit giving her attention and go do my own thing, she'll do the same.  Don't know she'll try and come back. 

I am going to use a poker term, she is "pot committed".  She has raised the stakes so high, she is making it too costly to stay in the game for you, and she is hoping you will fold by raising the stakes to an unbearable level.

While one of my mantras is to "Hope for the best; but plan for the worst" - The first round of the 'worst' is coming, this week, and that requires planning.

Consult with your attorney, and follow their advice since you have a court date very soon.  Offer to do any legwork needed to mitigate unwanted damages, which also may save you some money too.  It is time to do 'damage control' to make the best of a bad situation - stay focused.

Something seems a bit off - there might be something else at play here since she is so fixated on doing this.  Keep your eyes open for a possible new dynamic here.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[dtkm]

I feel for you, this is exactly what I went through, and it was pure hell...for over a year!

My uBPDh knew that I wanted to reconcile and he used that knowledge to hook me.  Every time he was the one who mentioned that we should "talk", but then I was the one who initiated the "talking" and, as you said, we would go round and round with the false accusations, me defending myself and almost pleading for him.  He would walk away each time with the "see, this will never work out" statement and I would walk away hurt and feeling like a piece of crap for pleading for my husband, who I knew had a better life with our family than he ever did without us.  I would feel like crap afterwards, like a low life!  Why was I pleading for someone who treats me so badly.  But round and round we would go and each time he would take a step farther away, though each of those steps I would notice something that showed me he wasn't done with me (seeing the marriage counseling search, etc)!

He moved out once without telling me or the kids, I came home to all of his stuff gone and no response (outside of "I'm ok") for close to 2 weeks.  He came back after that and moved out the second time in front of the kids, I believe wanting the attention.  Like you, all of the validation, talking methods, etc were foreign to me.  I am sure that they would have helped the situation, but in the middle of such high stress it was not my first go to.

Slowly, over time, I realized that "talking" only made things worse, for both of us.  I turned my attention to the kids, doing everything I could to make life as normal for them as possible, avoiding having "the conversation" or "talking about us".  Like you, our kids had everything that they needed, but I did everything I could to not let our stress "hit" their lives.  This meant inviting my husband to the kids activities and enjoying our time (instead of each of us standing far apart or not looking at each other)with the kids which brought us one millimeter closer each time we saw the other one having fun.  This meant encouraging the kids to FaceTime their dad and when I had to be the one to carry the phone around when they asked him to play hide and seek over the phone, which would lead to silly conversations between the two of us.  This meant to text my step daughter (with my husband on the text so that he saw that I wasn't trying to pull her to my side) when she was at my husband's house to see if she wanted to play a game through text with the other kids and I since I knew she was bored and would usually end in my husband suggesting that we come over to hang out after a bit.  Each time we did something fun, something would happen that would tell me that divorce was not the path we were on, but every time I tried to take a step forward I would try to talk and we would end up back at square one.

As mentioned in a different post on here, I had no choice to move forward on our divorce path for awhile.  I think that our temporary orders hearing proved to him that while this was not what I wanted, I would go for everything that I said I was going to go for.  My lawyer and I knocked it out of the park...while he did get 2 nights with the kids, I got full decision making and he had to pay my lawyer bills and me a large monthly sum.  We both agree that we wanted a PRE involved in our case and we each submitted 2 applicants.  My applicant was chosen and he had to pay for the majority of it.  Since I love him, seeing the crap that he just got dealt made me feel horrible, but I still stuck to every ounce of it, but all of a sudden he would forget to give me something of the kids and would end up at my house and would just stay, without being asked...he would also miss our kids drop off times and I would call him on it.

We agreed to couples therapy, even though every attempt at this in the past was a complete failure.  I hadn't reached out to him in a couple of days, as I was feeling like it was time that I needed to start giving up hope and realize what my future may hold so I was trying to emotionally disconnect.  I then got an email from him, to the therapist and I, saying that after what had occurred that week, that he realizes that this will not work for us and would like to cancel our initial therapy session that we agreed to.  This broke my heart, nothing had happened!  I drove straight to his house, which was breaking our court orders, and pretty much broke down in front of him...even though I was giving my all to the kids, our kids were still paying the price for our crap and I told him that.  We agreed on the fact that neither of us could do this to any of the kids, they were developing stomachaches, crying a lot, etc.  We agreed to drop the divorce case, with the sole fact that we will no matter what focus on the kids, and slowly work on us when it felt not so threatening.  That is where we still stand.

Things are good, but when the usual patterns would hit in the past I still get "nervous".  It has not been that long, but I have been very good at asking myself "is this a me problem or a him problem"... and either way..."is this the hill I want to die on?"  It is usually a him problem, so I "take the crap comments made at me", swallow what I want to say and move on to a different topic or make a funny joke with the kids...and surprisingly the crap has lessened.  I have proven that I will call the police if he does anything horrible again, so he won't go down that path.  He told me that the only reason he was dropping the divorce was because of the kids, that its not because he wants to be with me.  It hurt when he said that, but I see differently in him every day, when he chooses to be with me over and over.  Its a "control" thing and he can have that since I can see through it.  Every once in a while he will make a comment to me, well I will take this over what I had a couple months ago, I would much rather get kicked in bed by one of the kids than be laying in a king sized bed all by myself or I was so stressed I was so close to losing my job as my boss had to sit me down and told me I had one more shot, etc.

I feel for you!  It sucks!  My only advice to you is to keep putting one foot in front of the other, showing her that you love her and are there for her, but that you can't be walked over and that you will follow through with what you feel is right for your family if the divorce is what she wants.  Take the little opportunities to connect and come a millimeter closer, realizing that you will have a lot of "talks" in the future.  Divorce does not happen overnight.  It took us over a year just to get to our temporary hearing.  I felt like it was now or never every step of the way, and in actually it wasn't.  A lot happens with time, especially when you each have time to think clearly.  I look back on everything and it was complete hell, we needed the time apart to actually bring about change in ourselves.  As I have said before, who knows what our future holds, but I will say that we will hold it together for the kids and if that's as long as we can hold it together, I believe that we will always hold a special place in each others hearts, care deeply about each other and want what is the best for each other.      

[mikejones75093]

I am going to use a poker term, she is "pot committed".  She has raised the stakes so high, she is making it too costly to stay in the game for you, and she is hoping you will fold by raising the stakes to an unbearable level.

While one of my mantras is to "Hope for the best; but plan for the worst" - The first round of the 'worst' is coming, this week, and that requires planning.

Consult with your attorney, and follow their advice since you have a court date very soon.  Offer to do any legwork needed to mitigate unwanted damages, which also may save you some money too.  It is time to do 'damage control' to make the best of a bad situation - stay focused.

Something seems a bit off - there might be something else at play here since she is so fixated on doing this.  Keep your eyes open for a possible new dynamic here.

Take care with self-care.

SD

That's basically what she said.   It's gone too far no turning back.  She has the house and it's furnished.  Whats the end game here?  Does she really want out or is she pushing it further and further to get a reaction from me?  For some one that doesn't want to be abandon she sure is doing it to herself.

[mikejones75093]

I feel for you, this is exactly what I went through, and it was pure hell...for over a year!

My uBPDh knew that I wanted to reconcile and he used that knowledge to hook me.  Every time he was the one who mentioned that we should "talk", but then I was the one who initiated the "talking" and, as you said, we would go round and round with the false accusations, me defending myself and almost pleading for him.  He would walk away each time with the "see, this will never work out" statement and I would walk away hurt and feeling like a piece of crap for pleading for my husband, who I knew had a better life with our family than he ever did without us.  I would feel like crap afterwards, like a low life!  Why was I pleading for someone who treats me so badly.  But round and round we would go and each time he would take a step farther away, though each of those steps I would notice something that showed me he wasn't done with me (seeing the marriage counseling search, etc)!

He moved out once without telling me or the kids, I came home to all of his stuff gone and no response (outside of "I'm ok") for close to 2 weeks.  He came back after that and moved out the second time in front of the kids, I believe wanting the attention.  Like you, all of the validation, talking methods, etc were foreign to me.  I am sure that they would have helped the situation, but in the middle of such high stress it was not my first go to.

Slowly, over time, I realized that "talking" only made things worse, for both of us.  I turned my attention to the kids, doing everything I could to make life as normal for them as possible, avoiding having "the conversation" or "talking about us".  Like you, our kids had everything that they needed, but I did everything I could to not let our stress "hit" their lives.  This meant inviting my husband to the kids activities and enjoying our time (instead of each of us standing far apart or not looking at each other)with the kids which brought us one millimeter closer each time we saw the other one having fun.  This meant encouraging the kids to FaceTime their dad and when I had to be the one to carry the phone around when they asked him to play hide and seek over the phone, which would lead to silly conversations between the two of us.  This meant to text my step daughter (with my husband on the text so that he saw that I wasn't trying to pull her to my side) when she was at my husband's house to see if she wanted to play a game through text with the other kids and I since I knew she was bored and would usually end in my husband suggesting that we come over to hang out after a bit.  Each time we did something fun, something would happen that would tell me that divorce was not the path we were on, but every time I tried to take a step forward I would try to talk and we would end up back at square one.

As mentioned in a different post on here, I had no choice to move forward on our divorce path for awhile.  I think that our temporary orders hearing proved to him that while this was not what I wanted, I would go for everything that I said I was going to go for.  My lawyer and I knocked it out of the park...while he did get 2 nights with the kids, I got full decision making and he had to pay my lawyer bills and me a large monthly sum.  We both agree that we wanted a PRE involved in our case and we each submitted 2 applicants.  My applicant was chosen and he had to pay for the majority of it.  Since I love him, seeing the crap that he just got dealt made me feel horrible, but I still stuck to every ounce of it, but all of a sudden he would forget to give me something of the kids and would end up at my house and would just stay, without being asked...he would also miss our kids drop off times and I would call him on it.

We agreed to couples therapy, even though every attempt at this in the past was a complete failure.  I hadn't reached out to him in a couple of days, as I was feeling like it was time that I needed to start giving up hope and realize what my future may hold so I was trying to emotionally disconnect.  I then got an email from him, to the therapist and I, saying that after what had occurred that week, that he realizes that this will not work for us and would like to cancel our initial therapy session that we agreed to.  This broke my heart, nothing had happened!  I drove straight to his house, which was breaking our court orders, and pretty much broke down in front of him...even though I was giving my all to the kids, our kids were still paying the price for our crap and I told him that.  We agreed on the fact that neither of us could do this to any of the kids, they were developing stomachaches, crying a lot, etc.  We agreed to drop the divorce case, with the sole fact that we will no matter what focus on the kids, and slowly work on us when it felt not so threatening.  That is where we still stand.

Things are good, but when the usual patterns would hit in the past I still get "nervous".  It has not been that long, but I have been very good at asking myself "is this a me problem or a him problem"... and either way..."is this the hill I want to die on?"  It is usually a him problem, so I "take the crap comments made at me", swallow what I want to say and move on to a different topic or make a funny joke with the kids...and surprisingly the crap has lessened.  I have proven that I will call the police if he does anything horrible again, so he won't go down that path.  He told me that the only reason he was dropping the divorce was because of the kids, that its not because he wants to be with me.  It hurt when he said that, but I see differently in him every day, when he chooses to be with me over and over.  Its a "control" thing and he can have that since I can see through it.  Every once in a while he will make a comment to me, well I will take this over what I had a couple months ago, I would much rather get kicked in bed by one of the kids than be laying in a king sized bed all by myself or I was so stressed I was so close to losing my job as my boss had to sit me down and told me I had one more shot, etc.

I feel for you!  It sucks!  My only advice to you is to keep putting one foot in front of the other, showing her that you love her and are there for her, but that you can't be walked over and that you will follow through with what you feel is right for your family if the divorce is what she wants.  Take the little opportunities to connect and come a millimeter closer, realizing that you will have a lot of "talks" in the future.  Divorce does not happen overnight.  It took us over a year just to get to our temporary hearing.  I felt like it was now or never every step of the way, and in actually it wasn't.  A lot happens with time, especially when you each have time to think clearly.  I look back on everything and it was complete hell, we needed the time apart to actually bring about change in ourselves.  As I have said before, who knows what our future holds, but I will say that we will hold it together for the kids and if that's as long as we can hold it together, I believe that we will always hold a special place in each others hearts, care deeply about each other and want what is the best for each other.      

I appreciate the response. It definitely sucks.  It's like she feels I ditched her since we didn't talk that night so everything is nope nope.nope.  hopefully it gets through.  She's packing boxes and getting ready to move.  Makes me sad

[kells76]

That's basically what she said.   It's gone too far no turning back.  She has the house and it's furnished.  Whats the end game here?  Does she really want out or is she pushing it further and further to get a reaction from me?  For some one that doesn't want to be abandon she sure is doing it to herself.

The end game for her may be about her doing "external" things to try to regulate her wildly varying and harmfully intense "internal" emotions.

Instead of having the skills and ability to talk through her feelings, she tries to manage and control the external environment (including people) to get a sense of emotional regulation.

She may keep doing external "distancing" things like threatening divorce, getting an apartment, packing boxes, and moving out, until she feels regulated inside again.

Then she might start doing some "getting closer" things -- she may be regulated enough through those external actions to then feel sad, lonely, regretful, scared, etc, and she may want to reconcile so she's not alone. Maybe she'll call you, apologize, say she's lonely, say she wants to try again. Hard to say -- but a possibility.

It'll be important for you to think through what you want, so that as she keeps doing these wildly varying external things, you can respond based on your values, instead of react based on your triggers.

For example, if after she moves out, she calls you up and says "I'm sorry, it was all my fault, let's try again", it might be tempting to react and say: "You made your bed, you sleep in it -- not my problem", wanting to punish her out of your pain. A wiser course of action might be offering a refereed structure for her to show if she's serious about getting back together: "Thanks for your apology. I'm really feeling a lot right now. I'm open to us talking together with a marriage counselor. I'll set up an appointment and email you the details by Friday unless I get a suggestion from you before then."

Again -- so much of this depends on what you want and what you are up for.

Do you still want to try to save your marriage?

[mikejones75093]

The end game for her may be about her doing "external" things to try to regulate her wildly varying and harmfully intense "internal" emotions.

Instead of having the skills and ability to talk through her feelings, she tries to manage and control the external environment (including people) to get a sense of emotional regulation.

She may keep doing external "distancing" things like threatening divorce, getting an apartment, packing boxes, and moving out, until she feels regulated inside again.

Then she might start doing some "getting closer" things -- she may be regulated enough through those external actions to then feel sad, lonely, regretful, scared, etc, and she may want to reconcile so she's not alone. Maybe she'll call you, apologize, say she's lonely, say she wants to try again. Hard to say -- but a possibility.

It'll be important for you to think through what you want, so that as she keeps doing these wildly varying external things, you can respond based on your values, instead of react based on your triggers.

For example, if after she moves out, she calls you up and says "I'm sorry, it was all my fault, let's try again", it might be tempting to react and say: "You made your bed, you sleep in it -- not my problem", wanting to punish her out of your pain. A wiser course of action might be offering a refereed structure for her to show if she's serious about getting back together: "Thanks for your apology. I'm really feeling a lot right now. I'm open to us talking together with a marriage counselor. I'll set up an appointment and email you the details by Friday unless I get a suggestion from you before then."

Again -- so much of this depends on what you want and what you are up for.

Do you still want to try to save your marriage?

For the first time in my life I am confused and don't know what I want.  When she's euphoric she's amazing and the other side very bad.  The older I get the calmer I am so I wouldn't go off on.  If we reconcile it will definitely be with some boundaries and changes, like separating our property legally so I don't have to deal with this again if it goes bad.

Being able to have my kids grow up under one roof with both parents is still the dream. 

[mikejones75093]

Well went to our hearing.  She took the stand and lied, don't know that there is any coming back from that on my end.  I have broken off all communication and she is just moved out.  Is that how this ends?  Many years ago when I used to date,  all girlfriends came back at one time or another, but I don't know about this one.  Is there anything I can expect?  Will she try and rope me back in or is it just done for good?  I have no idea what is next.

[SaltyDawg]

Well went to our hearing.  She took the stand and lied, don't know that there is any coming back from that on my end.  I have broken off all communication and she is just moved out.  Is that how this ends?  Many years ago when I used to date,  all girlfriends came back at one time or another, but I don't know about this one.  Is there anything I can expect?  Will she try and rope me back in or is it just done for good?  I have no idea what is next.

Was your attorney able to poke holes into her false narrative on the stand?

You know your wife the best, so you are the one best able to answer those questions.  It sounds like she is taking a 'scorched earth' approach to this.  From what you have described, she is hell bent on making her version of her truth (the lies) conform to her feelings.  The cliche "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" might be appropriate here.

Going NC except the required interaction by your attorney and child care might be appropriate here.  If she is a true borderline, her feelings will take time to re-regulate, give it twice as long as the previous longest dysregulation period, as she has taken it further than before, so it will take longer to re-regulate than before, that is assuming it isn't completely broken - time will tell, but it won't be today.  Hope for the best (she will come back); however, plan for the worst (she will NOT come back).

Did the judge make a ruling - for the moment that will be your best guide on what happens next.

I am sure you are emotionally drained with all of this, be sure to do some self-care for yourself, so you can take care of the children.

Take care.

SD

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[dtkm]

I would highly suggest using the app "talking parents" or one like it, if you are able to, to communicate with your wife.  It was mandated for my husband and I (prior to our reconciliation) by our judge and made communication much more pleasant.  Attorneys and judges have access to all communication so can see what is truly said at all moments.

[mikejones75093]

Was your attorney able to poke holes into her false narrative on the stand?

You know your wife the best, so you are the one best able to answer those questions.  It sounds like she is taking a 'scorched earth' approach to this.  From what you have described, she is hell bent on making her version of her truth (the lies) conform to her feelings.  The cliche "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" might be appropriate here.

Going NC except the required interaction by your attorney and child care might be appropriate here.  If she is a true borderline, her feelings will take time to re-regulate, give it twice as long as the previous longest dysregulation period, as she has taken it further than before, so it will take longer to re-regulate than before, that is assuming it isn't completely broken - time will tell, but it won't be today.  Hope for the best (she will come back); however, plan for the worst (she will NOT come back).

Did the judge make a ruling - for the moment that will be your best guide on what happens next.

I am sure you are emotionally drained with all of this, be sure to do some self-care for yourself, so you can take care of the children.

Take care.

SD

Yes we poked all kinds of holes.  They had no evidence, just junk and things that didn't matter.

Started getting very nice texts from her today.  Emailed attorney and responded ruling was in.   Skewed in my favor.

When she's down she's a terrible person, and she looks terrible.   On the swing side when she's up she's amazing and I'm telling you it's a completely different look.  Went to discuss the schedule with her today and she had that look.  I'm so mad at myself,  but I miss her.  First day in an empty house in a very long time.

[mikejones75093]

Does separating and moving into separate places ever work out?  I know this has to be as horrible for her as it is for me.  She's starting to realize everything i did around the house because she's now having to pay people to do it for her.  Also time alone from the kids days at a time for the first time.   She found a new female friend she is mirroring a lot and spending a lot of time with .  I feel like a normal person would say this sucks let's figure it out.  No clue what goes through a bpd mind.

For someone who has a fear of abandonment I just don't get it. 

[kells76]

You will likely have some kind of communication for coparenting, depending on how old your kids are.

It is not uncommon to request that parents use a monitored app such as Talking Parents or Our Family Wizard for coparenting communications. You can ask your L if that is something your judge would likely approve (research it first to make sure it's a good fit for your situation).

After my H's kids' mom met with him in person a few years ago to discuss kid schedule stuff, got it all worked out, then said she was afraid he would abuse the kids, he has declined to meet with her 1x1 or agree to anything verbally since then.

We pivoted to do mostly email and some texting (written record), but after she gave both the kids smartphones and the. (as far as I can tell) gave up on parenting, H now works out the schedule with the kids directly. They are 15.5 & 17.5, so even though Mom "should be" working with dad for the kids' benefit, she doesn't so in order to get stuff done it has to be H working with the kids.

You can start pondering now what kind of structure you want for coparenting communication. Again, for us, written has been better than verbal, and some parents do need the "court monitoring" feature of TP or OFW.