Keep your distance, a little closer

[Depression = 72% of members]

I came home on Friday night after a long, heavy day at work.  My uBPDw put our 2 year old and my step kids to bed while I cleaned the kitchen and tidied the sitting room.  After this - it was after 8 - I thought I could spend 30 mins doing some mindfulness work.  So, I did the week's yoga exercises and got ready for her to come down.  I poured her a glass a wine and made her a cup of tea. 

When my wife came down, she looked so tired.  I hugged her and kissed her. She looked exhausted. She says she never gets anything done. She hasn't done any home work for her course for a while she says.  She looks sad. I say, this must make you sad. She says it does. I say you spend a lot of time with the toddler during the day and it is exhausting. And there are the other kids to care for too.

She says yes. Her face changes slightly, looking angry. She says, I want our kitchen finished. There is so much to do. And I feel like I keep having to nag you to do things. I say, yes there is a lot to do. That must be frustrating for you. You know, I never feel nagged by you and appreciate it when you remind of things I can do to help.  She says, like the whirligig. It is a disaster. I agree. She says, you don't seem to be interested in house maintenance. I say, I am probably not as passionate as some people about it, but I'm happy to do it when it needs doing. I notice that the whirligig has been put on my to-do list and say so. [Reality - she hasn't concluded where she wants it moved to, or even if she wants to keep it.] She says, well it has to be done. As house owners, if we don't do maintenance, the house will fall down. I agree. [Reality - I do more DIY than most of the guys I know.] She huffs and leaves to get the laundry from outside.

********

I wonder if the intimacy - when I hugged her and kissed her (she kept her hips well apart from me) was too much. I've noticed this before. Keep your distance a little closer. I'm never sure what to do in this situation.  She is now buzzing about with laundry and making frustrated sounds. I'm tempted to go to our room, alone. I don't want to be attacked because she is unhappy. I've worked a hard day, and also got up an hour earlier than her today to entertain the toddler and get kids ready for the day.

********

After she comes back, she says, you know, all I get from you these days is a practiced validating response. It sounds so unnatural, like something you read in a book. Why can't you just act normal? I say, how would you like me to respond? She says, there you go again! I feel myself getting angry and move away a bit. She says, isn't it nice for you that you can do some yoga when I am upstairs getting the toddler to bed. How is that meant to make me feel? I never get a chance to do any yoga!  When you put him to bed, I sweep the floor etc. I say, yes, it probably was frustrating for you. I can understand that. I point out that I did all the dishes, picked up the toys, poured her a glass of wine and made her tea. The night before, I swept the floor. I say, I had a hard day at work and feel ok with looking after myself for half an hour. I say, I'm going away.  I feel myself getting angry and I don't want to be that way with you. 

When I come home from a walk, and climb into bed, she says, I'm not interested in talking about anything - I am not prepared to hear that it is all my fault.  I said that this thought would never even occur to me.  We fall asleep, occupying different continents on the same bed. Again.

So... .I have been criticised for not looking after the house, validating her 'like a textbook' and being selfish (a big theme - she has a really hard time doing things for herself and gets angry when I do).  Over the past few days, I've kept my distance while I work this stuff out.  And guess what, my wife has been SUPER nice these past three days.  After not being able to look or talk to me when I came to bed, she has acted like nothing happened at all. 

My dilemma is - do I just keep keeping my distance?  If I drop my guard, which I did on Friday night, she may get vicious again.  I can usually see it for what it is, but I got hurt this time.  I know this sounds petty, but I'm tired of the criticism.  Regarding the validating responses - I'm guessing that I could improve what I do, but still - she is saying she doesn't want to be validated.  What the heck?

[PurpleSkies]

I came home on Friday night after a long, heavy day at work.  My uBPDw put our 2 year old and my step kids to bed while I cleaned the kitchen and tidied the sitting room.  After this - it was after 8 - I thought I could spend 30 mins doing some mindfulness work.  So, I did the week's yoga exercises and got ready for her to come down.  I poured her a glass a wine and made her a cup of tea. 

When my wife came down, she looked so tired.  I hugged her and kissed her. She looked exhausted. She says she never gets anything done. She hasn't done any home work for her course for a while she says.  She looks sad. I say, this must make you sad. She says it does. I say you spend a lot of time with the toddler during the day and it is exhausting. And there are the other kids to care for too.

She says yes. Her face changes slightly, looking angry. She says, I want our kitchen finished. There is so much to do. And I feel like I keep having to nag you to do things. I say, yes there is a lot to do. That must be frustrating for you. You know, I never feel nagged by you and appreciate it when you remind of things I can do to help.  She says, like the whirligig. It is a disaster. I agree. She says, you don't seem to be interested in house maintenance. I say, I am probably not as passionate as some people about it, but I'm happy to do it when it needs doing. I notice that the whirligig has been put on my to-do list and say so. [Reality - she hasn't concluded where she wants it moved to, or even if she wants to keep it.] She says, well it has to be done. As house owners, if we don't do maintenance, the house will fall down. I agree. [Reality - I do more DIY than most of the guys I know.] She huffs and leaves to get the laundry from outside.

********

I wonder if the intimacy - when I hugged her and kissed her (she kept her hips well apart from me) was too much. I've noticed this before. Keep your distance a little closer. I'm never sure what to do in this situation.  She is now buzzing about with laundry and making frustrated sounds. I'm tempted to go to our room, alone. I don't want to be attacked because she is unhappy. I've worked a hard day, and also got up an hour earlier than her today to entertain the toddler and get kids ready for the day.

********

After she comes back, she says, you know, all I get from you these days is a practiced validating response. It sounds so unnatural, like something you read in a book. Why can't you just act normal? I say, how would you like me to respond? She says, there you go again! I feel myself getting angry and move away a bit. She says, isn't it nice for you that you can do some yoga when I am upstairs getting the toddler to bed. How is that meant to make me feel? I never get a chance to do any yoga!  When you put him to bed, I sweep the floor etc. I say, yes, it probably was frustrating for you. I can understand that. I point out that I did all the dishes, picked up the toys, poured her a glass of wine and made her tea. The night before, I swept the floor. I say, I had a hard day at work and feel ok with looking after myself for half an hour. I say, I'm going away.  I feel myself getting angry and I don't want to be that way with you. 

When I come home from a walk, and climb into bed, she says, I'm not interested in talking about anything - I am not prepared to hear that it is all my fault.  I said that this thought would never even occur to me.  We fall asleep, occupying different continents on the same bed. Again.

So... .I have been criticised for not looking after the house, validating her 'like a textbook' and being selfish (a big theme - she has a really hard time doing things for herself and gets angry when I do).  Over the past few days, I've kept my distance while I work this stuff out.  And guess what, my wife has been SUPER nice these past three days.  After not being able to look or talk to me when I came to bed, she has acted like nothing happened at all. 

My dilemma is - do I just keep keeping my distance?  If I drop my guard, which I did on Friday night, she may get vicious again.  I can usually see it for what it is, but I got hurt this time.  I know this sounds petty, but I'm tired of the criticism.  Regarding the validating responses - I'm guessing that I could improve what I do, but still - she is saying she doesn't want to be validated.  What the heck?

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[Thread]

I think I can speak for everyone... .That this is the story of our lives.  :'( :'( :'(

I'm dealing with that almost every other day. Silent treatments as I'm breaking down inside and a few days or hours later everything is fine. And the cycle begins again... .Super loving, then normal, then irritable, the complaints, then BAM! outburst in yelling or rage, or the passive kind when he BPD just shuts me out completely... .Both being heartbreaking.

People say don't take it personal, be strong. It's not as easy as it's said. After years of these cycles it drives you mad and eats away at your core. Also never knowing what's going to trigger it is maddening! Whenever the irritability starts I'm start having anxiety just waiting and tiptoeing around my h BPD... .

I'm sorry you are going through this. But you do need to take time for you however that can be achieved - do it! I need to practice this but it is hard because we own a business together and I'm often trapped between deadlines and my h BPD. It's a 24 hour job. And when I do take time for myself working a abnormal amount of long hours, he complains that I am procrastinating and not getting the job done. I have to remind him there is always something to do, and one day for myself will be okay because the jobs never don't get done. He also under plays how much I do and over plays how much he does. I don't work when he's gone so he can physically see the work I do.

The other part of advice I have gotten from therapy, which is also harder than is said, is boundary making. When they rage or act disrespectful to put your foot down and say things like, "I don't appreciate the way you are speaking to me and I will be going --- until you can treat me with respect and love." Or if it's not so extreme you can also say, "can you please treat me with love right now, or do you love me? Am I important to you? I need to know and feel it."

The boundary one I have a very hard time with especially when he speaks about self harm. He's never acted on it, but it's definitely a worry I have, that if I leave he's going to harm himself or when I return the anger or fears of abandonment will have gotten worse.

 

[PurpleSkies]

Thank you Hanging - that is bang on and so useful.  And it helps so much to know I'm not alone. :-) I've been so sad these last few days... .   

I like the boundary setting messages you mention.  I've got a few that I use, but I haven't found a way of suggesting to her that treating me with love - does she love me? - would keep me in the room. 

I know it has been discussed before on here.  But I'm going to mention it.  Sex. We had a life affirming sex life before we moved in together 2.5 years ago.  Then it started deteriorating.  We've been together 4.5 years.  She stopped coming to bed every night with me. She found new things to do before bedtime, etc.  I used to wait for her, but it got to the point when I couldn't work properly the next day, due to sleep deprivation.  Now, I would say she comes to bed between 1 and 2 hours after me (11pm for me) 6 nights out of 7.  About 1/2 of the time when we are in the same bed, there is bad feeling.  The other half, she is too tired for anything, or - if I have initiated - she will spend up to 20 mins telling me why she has no time for sex.  Last time this happened, she said that if I wanted her to come to bed with her, I should give up a day of work per week to watch the kids.  (She works part time a bit, but doesn't bring any money into the house - it is in her account).  We wouldn't be able to survive if I did.  The only time we've made love in the past 4 months, it occurred after I helped her with 'home work' (kissing for the duration of a pop song) for an on-line course intimacy course that she is taking - to teach to other people.  The irony isn't lost on me.

Over the last two years, we've been physically intimate less than 20 times.  Just once over the last 4 months.  She has initiated twice in 2 years. I'm 43.  I was in a sex-less marriage before, and I'm not willing to do this again.  I really don't know what to do. 

We've got a second appointment with a marriage therapist in a week.  My wife spent the first one criticising me, and saying that she thought therapy would be a waste of money.  I'm scared to raise anything myself in case she flees again - it was an effort to get her to agree to go back.  And this is a hot potato.  What on earth do I do?  I feel so lonely, most every night.  :'(

I think I can speak for everyone... .That this is the story of our lives.  :'( :'( :'(

I'm dealing with that almost every other day. Silent treatments as I'm breaking down inside and a few days or hours later everything is fine. And the cycle begins again... .Super loving, then normal, then irritable, the complaints, then BAM! outburst in yelling or rage, or the passive kind when he BPD just shuts me out completely... .Both being heartbreaking.

People say don't take it personal, be strong. It's not as easy as it's said. After years of these cycles it drives you mad and eats away at your core. Also never knowing what's going to trigger it is maddening! Whenever the irritability starts I'm start having anxiety just waiting and tiptoeing around my h BPD... .

[Thread]

I really don't know how to respond to the lack of intimacy stuff  

The things I've learned through the readings and through my own therapy is that the pwBPD like it and feel empowered by it.  It's a twisted control thing.  So in my life my pwBPD is very interested.  I've also read things about pwBPD who can't be faithful in that department... .again I don't have answers here because I've never dealt with either.



Maybe someone with more experience to this and is less new to this whole BPD thing can give some better insight!

Therapy is good, but it is important they go alone.  Traditional marriage counseling doesn't prove effective.  :)uring our sessions I only jump in every three weeks with his therapist and him.  If I go each week, the conversation will tend to be all about me and what I am doing wrong... .but the focus needs to remain on the pwBPD... .me being there is just distracting from themselves and the responsibility they ought to be accountable for.

I would check out DBT therapy or look to see if there is a DBT institute in your area. This is what Ive heard is the most effective therapy for people with BPD.

The denial and the refusal and excuses to not go to therapy is a thing.  If you read some of the articles posted on this site its an issue... .I forget the term for it, but yes I dealt with that as well. I had to give my H with BPD an ultimatum that I would look into separation again unless he honored his commitment to therapy weekly for 6 months straight without skipping sessions. I also had him sign off on a release that the therapist can contact me if he ever stops showing up... .because that can be a thing too, three times and they stop going.

The sad part is even though my H BPD is going, I still can't be sure its for him, and he wants to change.  He may just be going for me and to make sure I don't leave, and the reality is he won't change if he's just going to make me "happy" ... .only time will tell, but I am fully aware therapy may be a lifelong investment.

Hope this was helpful-ish  

[vortex of confusion]

After she comes back, she says, you know, all I get from you these days is a practiced validating response. It sounds so unnatural, like something you read in a book.

I wanted to comment on this because it is something that has been on my mind a bit. There is a lot of truth to how invalidating a practiced validating response can be. They do seem fake and insincere, especially to somebody that is already sensitive and on high alert.

I have gotten a lot farther by saying nothing or even trying to find a way to be more sincere. That is very difficult to do when I feel like any response that I give will be received poorly. Even something vague like, "I hear what you are saying. I don't know how to respond." seems to be more validating than the practiced validation. And, I have said things like, "I am just as frustrated as you. It is obvious that our relationship needs work. I don't know what to do."

And I want to comment on the sex stuff. I can relate to your wife. I am the one that goes to bed later. I am busy putting the kids to bed at night while he does his thing. Almost all of the night time parenting falls on me. I would go to bed after putting the kids to bed and doing stuff around the house and he would be sawing logs. I didn't expect him to stay awake on work nights. It would have been nice if he had made more of an effort to stay awake so that when I came to bed we could cuddle or talk. Heck, I would have been okay if he would have let me wake him up for some adult time. It didn't work. I eventually stopped going to bed with him. I slept on the couch or on the floor in the kids' room.

Have you tried waking her up in the morning to spend some time with her before the kids get up? I used to go to bed later and then try to wake up or get my husband to wake me up so we could have some adult time. He would wake me up and then ignore me. Or, he would wake me up to tell me goodbye. The fact that what I wanted more than anything was to spend time with HIM was completely lost on him.

[PurpleSkies]

I have gotten a lot farther by saying nothing or even trying to find a way to be more sincere. That is very difficult to do when I feel like any response that I give will be received poorly. Even something vague like, "I hear what you are saying. I don't know how to respond." seems to be more validating than the practiced validation. And, I have said things like, "I am just as frustrated as you. It is obvious that our relationship needs work. I don't know what to do."

I'm still trying to work it out.  I hear what you are saying.  A comment that seems robotic isn't going to be heard - and it would rightly anger anyone.  It's really hard to know what to say sometimes.  Sometimes the validating comments are spot on.  When she is angry, she doesn't remember. When it comes to her attacking me, and me validating the feelings behind the anger, it doesn't work - it just makes her angrier.  Maybe, in these times, I just need to leave respectfully because I haven't found another way of defusing things.

And I want to comment on the sex stuff. I can relate to your wife. I am the one that goes to bed later. I am busy putting the kids to bed at night while he does his thing. Almost all of the night time parenting falls on me. I would go to bed after putting the kids to bed and doing stuff around the house and he would be sawing logs. I didn't expect him to stay awake on work nights. It would have been nice if he had made more of an effort to stay awake so that when I came to bed we could cuddle or talk. Heck, I would have been okay if he would have let me wake him up for some adult time. It didn't work. I eventually stopped going to bed with him. I slept on the couch or on the floor in the kids' room.

Have you tried waking her up in the morning to spend some time with her before the kids get up? I used to go to bed later and then try to wake up or get my husband to wake me up so we could have some adult time. He would wake me up and then ignore me. Or, he would wake me up to tell me goodbye. The fact that what I wanted more than anything was to spend time with HIM was completely lost on him.

Thanks for helping me understand another perspective on the physical intimacy side of things. It never occurred to me to suggest to her to wake me up.

When I come home, I'm just as involved in dealing with the kids.  She is understandably stressed after a full day of it. But most nights, it is me putting the wee one to bed.

We're usually woken up by our 2 year old earlier than either wants to be awake. She stays in bed while I get the kids breakfast and ready for school. The wee one is in bed with us from about 3am every night. No chance of early morning trysts.

[vortex of confusion]

Maybe, in these times, I just need to leave respectfully because I haven't found another way of defusing things.

Sometimes, that is the best and easiest choice. I don't always need to diffuse things or worry so much about my partner's feelings. That isn't to say, "I don't care." That isn't what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that I need to be able to have MY feelings. I am not a robot and I shouldn't feel like I need to validate him, coddle him, or find ways to diffuse situations. I need to take care of me instead of spinning myself in circles trying to figure out the perfect response or approach.

We're usually woken up by our 2 year old earlier than either wants to be awake. She stays in bed while I get the kids breakfast and ready for school. The wee one is in bed with us from about 3am every night. No chance of early morning trysts.

Why not? Seriously, how many kids do you have between the two of you? It is possible to have a tryst without the use of a bedroom. My husband and I have 17 years together and have 4 kids. Sometimes, it requires a bit of creativity. Bathroom. Walk in closets. Let the kid stay in the bed asleep and slip out to another room that has a door that you can shut. I think we even snuck into the garage one time.

Having a 2 year old is exhausting. Remember, this child won't be 2 forever. In the meantime, it might make things easier if you have some more compassion for yourself and the wife.

[PurpleSkies]

Five kids - between 2 and 13. Honestly VOC, I'm at the stage where I'm tired of being turned down. Maybe once I recover my mojo. She's not shown any real interest for a long time and it has been made clear that my feelings, desires etc do not matter. Closets, bathrooms etc sound good, but pure fantasy.

[vortex of confusion]

Five kids - between 2 and 13. Honestly VOC, I'm at the stage where I'm tired of being turned down. Maybe once I recover my mojo. She's not shown any real interest for a long time and it has been made clear that my feelings, desires etc do not matter. Closets, bathrooms etc sound good, but pure fantasy.

I know that feeling of rejection and getting tired of being turned down. At one point, my husband told me that I no longer trip his trigger. He made it abundantly clear that he wasn't feeling things with me any more. He has since changed his mind and has attempted to stop rejecting me. The damage has been done and, even if he were to act like I was the only woman in the world, I would seriously doubt him.

 

[Hmcbart]

Five kids - between 2 and 13. Honestly VOC, I'm at the stage where I'm tired of being turned down. Maybe once I recover my mojo. She's not shown any real interest for a long time and it has been made clear that my feelings, desires etc do not matter. Closets, bathrooms etc sound good, but pure fantasy.

I don't have any advice but I feel your pain. We only have 2 kids 12 & 8. The idea of closets, bathrooms, etc... .yep, pure fantasy. I have learned that I have super powers. I can cause her to get a headache or upset stomache just by saying the word sex... .I wanted laser vision or the ability to fly but I got headache making ability. And it only works on her, so I'm suck as a super villain.

I have also gotten hit with the fake validating thing. I was told I was talking to her like I  was smarter than her.

As far as dropping your guard, you don't get that luxury. You have to be on guard 24/7/365. She only has to be right once to trigger you, you have to be right 100% of the time to not get triggered and not trigger her.

... .blue pill anyone?

[ArleighBurke]

PurpleSkies: I feel for you. Your original post could have been written by me too. (and everyone else here by the sounds of it).

I've yet to work out where the truth fits. My wBPD FEELS like she does all the work, like she's got no time, always running after kids, always cooking and cleaning - but I've logged how much "free" time she has playing Candy Crush and it's many times more free time than I ever have.

So I can validate her feelings, agree that life is tough/demanding/busy/tiring, say i feel those things too, but she will never see the good she has.

And my sex life is the same as yours.

What do you do?

[PurpleSkies]

What to do? I really don't know. I'm at breaking point right now. Feeling like depression is kicking back in.

We were intimate last week - stayed up to her bedtime, helped with laundry etc - and two nights ago, I initiated with her. She said, after a while, 'No. I have thoughts running through my head. I just can't switch off the way you can. We are in therapy, which always pushes us apart, and I keep asking you for the same old things and nothing ever changes.' It was late and I had work the next day. I said, ok. And I rolled over to the other side of the bed, because I knew that any discussion of therapy or 'the things' was not something to discuss that time of night. I should have verbalised this at the time, but was too tired. I lay awake for the next 3 hours.

So today, after feeling depressed and sleep deprived for two days, I asked her what she meant by what she said - that nothing ever changes after she asks me to do things - saying that I was really sad to hear it, and that it seemed to me like she was blaming me. She said she had no recollection of it.

And then, we got in 'discussion', witnessed by the toddler. I asked her repeatedly if she could speak to me like she loved me. Here is what she said - 'Fine, I tell you what I'll do - for the rest of the month, I will delete myself. You can do whatever you want to with my body. I'll only speak to you in a loving, kind way, despite any feelings I have. if you tell me that what I'm saying is wrong, or how I say it, then I'll say sorry and do it again the way you want. We'll start right now'. I felt like I had been kicked in the stomach by a mule. What do you say to that? I want to hear her thoughts and feelings. I just don't want to be criticised, ranted at, and accused of tearing our family apart when I ask her to treat me and the kids with love rather than anger.

Honestly, I just don't know what to do. When I am with friends and speaking to family, I feel like my interactions are a huge lie, because I'm hurting so bad inside. This is stopping me from even wanting to spend time with others. It is classic stuff, I know. But this feels like a new low.  :'(

[Thread]

Purpleskies,

Honestly, I just don't know what to do. When I am with friends and speaking to family, I feel like my interactions are a huge lie, because I'm hurting so bad inside. This is stopping me from even wanting to spend time with others. It is classic stuff, I know. But this feels like a new low.  cry

I'm right there with you. And it hurts. And it feels so fake. And I also feel like I'm dead, but living or having the life sucked out of me.

I'm sorry you are going through this. I wish I could give answers, but I cannot even wrap my own head around the battle. Even worse I don't think therapy is helping due to my h BPD using a lot of manipulation and using my frustrations as his in therapy towards me. I'm also losing hope, seeing change one day, then the next right back to an argument of what should have just been a simple conversation.

My heart goes out to you  

[PurpleSkies]

I'm right there with you. And it hurts. And it feels so fake

I'm sorry you are going through this. I wish I could give answers, but I cannot even wrap my own head around the battle. Even worse I don't think therapy is helping due to my h BPD using a lot of manipulation and using my frustrations as his in therapy towards me. I'm also losing hope, seeing change one day, then the next right back to an argument of what should have just been a simple conversation.

My heart goes out to you  

Thank you, Hanging. You are going through a really hard time, too, and I appreciate your kind words. It is isn't a group any of us would choose to be in, but it is good to know you're not alone at the same time. I hope you get some answers for yourself soon. 

[ArleighBurke]

Here is what she said - 'Fine, I tell you what I'll do - for the rest of the month, I will delete myself. You can do whatever you want to with my body. I'll only speak to you in a loving, kind way, despite any feelings I have. if you tell me that what I'm saying is wrong, or how I say it, then I'll say sorry and do it again the way you want. We'll start right now'.

My wife has done the same. She said "I've not complained about anything for 2 weeks, done what you wanted in bed, and nothing is different (we're still not lovey dovey)". So she believes she bit her tongue for 2 weeks. I recall quite a few heated discussions in that time, which she agreed "well yes - we've had heated discussions - but not argued."

It is one sided. That's what I've learnt about BPD. It will never be fair or reasonable. You need to be able to develop a real thick skin, take care of yourself and not be affected by it. That's the hard one - you need to REALLY develop a good self-worth, and other interests, and a high "acceptance". It's difficult.