I want to preserve the marriage - she is looking for divorce - Any advice?

[bugwaterguy]

We are married 25 years, with a 10 year old and a 17 year old.

I would like to preserve the marriage - while protecting my children and myself.

She is looking to divorce.

Does anyone have any advice?

During divorce proceedings - is it relevant to bring up BPD with lawyers or a judge?  I am concerned that the emotional abuse my wife has directed at me will be directed toward my children if I am not there as a target.

[kells76]

Hi bugwaterguy;

Couple of general thoughts come to mind:

If she's the one saying words about wanting divorce... don't help her.

Often, members have partners who say lots of words about wanting divorce, but the member, like you, wants to keep the family together. Weirdly, sometimes there is a (perhaps subconscious) thought of "I must help my partner with figuring out the steps of divorce, because she just can't seem to figure it out on her own, and I'm a helpful person, and maybe if I show support and help her with what she wants, we'll stay together". (Not saying you're doing this, just saying it has happened before)

Consider, instead, letting her succeed, or fail, at trying to divorce, on her own. If she "just can't figure out how to write a parenting plan", or "has no idea how to get a lawyer", or "wants out and away from you, and you're the bad guy for not helping her file papers"...

let her succeed or fail at those things on her own.

Let your own actions match your own values. You currently want to work on the marriage. So, don't do things that undermine what you say and believe you want.

I think many pwBPD can "talk a good game" about stuff that "sounds serious" to us, yet, when it comes time to use executive function to actually DO a process... they really struggle.

If she wants the divorce, she must figure it out on her own. And, conversely, if she is in fact capable of following the steps for divorce, there isn't much you can do to stop her.

...

I would also plan for the worst and hope for the best.

It is completely possible, "legal", and fine, to both want to stay in the marriage and to try some stuff to make it work, AND at the same time to come up with a custody arrangement and parenting plan that will be best for your kids (as you mention, you suspect she may lash out at them if you aren't there... so they may do better with more time with you).

At this point, don't share your plans with her. Get some plans together privately, on the side, and have them ready for the "worst case" scenario that she actually follows through with filing for divorce. You want to be in your strongest possible position to protect the kids if she does that. If she doesn't file... that's fine.

Consider having a couple of initial consultations with local lawyers. Give them the nutshell version, describe any documentation you have, and they will (often for lower cost or free) let you know what you can expect in your area. That can help you decide how long to fight for the marriage, and at what point your kids' needs become higher priority than the marriage, and you have to file first to protect them.

...

During divorce proceedings - is it relevant to bring up BPD with lawyers or a judge?

Even if she had an airtight 110% diagnosis on paper... probably not, unless there is 3rd party documentation directly linking her diagnosis to specific abusive/damaging actions towards the kids.

I would see it as a distraction and it might even work against you ("See, bugwaterguy just wants to throw mud and label his wife... they're just the same, they both deserve each other").

I'd instead focus on documenting patterns of behavior that negatively impact the kids.

Has anything she's done impacted the kids' schooling?

Have any neutral 3rd party professionals (counselors, therapists, doctors, teachers, coaches, etc) documented any concerning things she's said or done to them or to the kids?

...

Focus on areas where you can have maximum "payoff" for the effort.

Focusing on labels is generally not a winning game coming from the ex-partner.

Even coming from professionals on the stand, a label doesn't mean as much as we want. I would see that area as minimum payoff (if any) for the effort.

Focus instead on getting the absolute best custody and parenting time arrangement as you can, as soon as you can, even/especially if it's "temporary orders". My gut feeling is that's where you'll have most payoff for effort.

Focus on protecting yourself and never letting her goad you into an outburst. Consider carrying a pocket recorder (don't let her know) to cover your bases, so you have documentation that you aren't the aggressor.

See if you can get the kids into counseling/therapy and get an established relationship with a good professional. You don't have to wait for a divorce to happen to do this.

If things do go to court, be focused on solutions for your kids. Always have a proposal or two ready; don't waste time on how "she always... she's just like this... she's the reason for the problems...". Laser focus 110% on the kids and their needs, be "the guy who really doesn't want to label people". Do present patterns of behavior that impact the kids.

...

Just a first go at some ideas...

Let me know your thoughts --

kells76

[ForeverDad]

Kells' post is excellent and thoughtful.  It's important to privately seek legal advice, not just to determine your state's divorce process but also to determine what strategies would be practical to increase the likelihood that you become the person with greater parenting authority.  While you have valid concerns about both children, one child will have become an adult by the time any legal case gets very far along, so your prime focus on parental authority needs to be on your preteen.

As for divorce itself... It has been estimated that 85-90% of divorces are between reasonably normal (not PD spouses).  All domestic or family courts have one goal in a divorce, to be the more-or-less neutral moderators of unwinding a marriage or relationship.  The reality is that they won't try to fix the ailing relationship.  You may have to accept that reality where if one parent really wants a divorce then it will happen.

Many here have experienced the claims or distress of being threatened with divorce. For some of us, for years.  So... is her mention of divorce new or an old repeated threat?

In my case, my family life was deteriorating after our child was born and the last couple years (of 15 years married) she starting making the threats more and more often.  Toward the last I started worrying that she really wanted it.  That's why it would be helpful to know whether her bringing up divorce is occurring more often than before and more than just 'venting'.

Meanwhile, in addition to seeking legal advice with an experienced family law attorney, you would be wise to *confidentially* obtain a copy of William Eddy's Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder, either the paperback or digital version.  Repeat, this is for your use.  Along with the strategies you learn here in peer support or from a lawyer, this is also not to be shared with your spouse.  Yes, share parenting information.  No, don't share your confidential strategies and support.

[alleyesonme]

Great advice in all of the posts above.

One thing I'd add is that, while presenting your concerns about documented patterns of behaviors is always a good approach, having an official diagnosis on top of that can help you in certain cases. Most spouses of a BP never have an official diagnosis to work with, but there are studies out there that discuss the dangers to a child of a parent with BPD. If you have an official diagnosis, then you may be able to use it to your advantage. Some courts still may disregard the significance of the diagnosis, but that's why you're hiring a lawyer to know how the court in your area will handle it.

Also, if possible, try to track down an attorney that actually understands personality disorders. My anecdotal estimate is that 99.9% of them don't. At the same time, remember that everything you say to your attorney is confidential, so it doesn't hurt to mention that you strongly suspect your W has BPD and explain why. You never know who or what your attorney knows, so it doesn't hurt to provide every piece of information that may help your case.

[bugwaterguy]

Thanks everyone.

I am planning on not doing any work for her.  She must take the lead, and put forward initial proposals that I will react to.

I have accommodated her throughout our relationship.  I know much of this was rescuing, enabling, and codependent.  I am not doing that anymore.

I am documenting.

My wife is not diagnosed with BPD, she is diagnosed with depression.  She is in therapy, but because of what I believe to be a misdiagnoses - I think the treatment is making the BPD worse.  She appears to be a petulant subtype, and the blaming and projecting is getting worse.  She claims she is "standing up for herself" but in reality it is just more blaming and projecting.

I want to get the kids into counseling - and find a therapist who can arm my kids with the tools to protect themselves against her behaviors.  Because her behaviors are mostly through playing the victim, projecting, and blaming, I am afraid those would be extremely difficult for a child to deal with.  I am a 45 year old adult, and I didn't realize it was happening to me until recently.  I am just now learning to set boundaries with my wife.  My kids need to be able to do that too.  And I don't know how to teach them.

I am reading Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

I have inquired with multiple attorneys about BPD - one response so far, and they were not familiar.

[formflier]

  She must take the lead, and put forward initial proposals that I will react to.

I have accommodated her throughout our relationship.  I know much of this was rescuing, enabling, and codependent.  I am not doing that anymore.
 

It's good that you now have the insight that your prior behavior was likely contributing to decline of the relationship...and most importantly...that you are not going to do that anymore.

So...be thoughtful about "reacting to" her proposals.

"No."  is often the best response.

What you don't want to do is "say" that you don't want a divorce and then behave in ways that enable/help/facilitate a divorce to happen.  Because..she can get a divorce from you without your involvement.  Let her "own" it.

Now..switch gears to legal matters and legal proceedings.

Just like you should not "participate" in helping the divorce along...please prepare in private with a lawyer. 

It's a completely fine thing for you to try and save this marriage...don't let that desire impact your "preparedness" for a divorce that you don't want. 

Best,

FF