Need some Peeps... divorce no kids in FL... HELP

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Alrighty I need some support and advice.  I am just getting ready to get into the legal battle.  I was hopeful that me and my stbxuBPDw of 10 yrs could work out some things between us and that isn't going to happen. 

Here is a snapshot of my situation.  Wife had cancer 1 month into marriage at age 26, Chemo was not kind- menopause- no kids- has been underemployed or unemployed (40% of marriage).  I am the breadwinner and make decent money providing a pretty good life (a miserable, hollow life by her account BTW).  Now she has started up a real estate career but that is hit or miss with income.  I live in Florida so basically we are looking at a 50/50 split of marital assets and then some kind of alimony. 

I have no idea of what to expect to pay, but she can't support herself currently, but is healthy and smart and very capable, a high functioning BPD. 

I moved out in May, she changed the locks on our house and won't give me a key.  I am still paying all the bills, and giving her money, fixing her car for her and supporting her 100%.  I did take her cc away because the spending was out of hand.  Now she's got another cc in her name, but has this attitude that what she puts on there "is none of my business"... .uhm yes it is.  I am living very frugally and spending money on therapy for me and her, and she's probably shopping and going on vacations.  Each time I do something for her, there is another something right after... .After $1500 this month into her car, she now wants another one.  I told her I just got hers all fixed up new windshield, AC, tires, tail-light, new starter, she needs to hold off for a bit and she can buy herself a new car after our divorce is final.

Oh no, she told me this morning that she is going to have her lawyer talk to my lawyer about getting her a new car now, because "this is the time of the year to do it and she NEEDS it for work". 

Yesterday I scheduled up a meeting with our old MC to see if we could work together towards un-winding our marriage. NOPE.  She'd rather lawyers talk.  She said money is not an issue for her... .WHAT?  OH F'ing great.

Each one of us is asking the other to "Go First" with regards to a suggested equitable distribution list.  I agreed that in a week I'd present her with one.

Do I start with a reasonable splitting, do I try to favor myself because I know there will be a "negotiation" upcoming?

Can I get some advice from you guys about the pros and cons of going for alimony and what is reasonable?  Should I go for a lump some and done approach even if I had to borrow money to do it, or... .

My God I am not looking forward to this.  I know I am still in the FOG of the breakdown of our marriage.  She is extremely "shoot from the hip" and is going to go passionately and irrationally seek revenge and she prob. has a pretty good sob story for leverage against me.

I haven't been on this board too much.  I need to focus on the logistics now and I know that a lot of you have custody battles, we just have a dog that God, but I would love to get some support and find some people who are in my shoes, slightly ahead of me or all the way done with this.  I feel like I have to storm Omaha beach and the landing craft door is just creaking open... .

[Heartandsole]

Alrighty I need some support and advice.  I am just getting ready to get into the legal battle.  I was hopeful that me and my stbxuBPDw of 10 yrs could work out some things between us and that isn't going to happen. 

Here is a snapshot of my situation.  Wife had cancer 1 month into marriage at age 26, Chemo was not kind- menopause- no kids- has been underemployed or unemployed (40% of marriage).  I am the breadwinner and make decent money providing a pretty good life (a miserable, hollow life by her account BTW).  Now she has started up a real estate career but that is hit or miss with income.  I live in Florida so basically we are looking at a 50/50 split of marital assets and then some kind of alimony. 

I have no idea of what to expect to pay, but she can't support herself currently, but is healthy and smart and very capable, a high functioning BPD. 

I moved out in May, she changed the locks on our house and won't give me a key.  I am still paying all the bills, and giving her money, fixing her car for her and supporting her 100%.  I did take her cc away because the spending was out of hand.  Now she's got another cc in her name, but has this attitude that what she puts on there "is none of my business"... .uhm yes it is.  I am living very frugally and spending money on therapy for me and her, and she's probably shopping and going on vacations.  Each time I do something for her, there is another something right after... .After $1500 this month into her car, she now wants another one.  I told her I just got hers all fixed up new windshield, AC, tires, tail-light, new starter, she needs to hold off for a bit and she can buy herself a new car after our divorce is final.

Oh no, she told me this morning that she is going to have her lawyer talk to my lawyer about getting her a new car now, because "this is the time of the year to do it and she NEEDS it for work". 

Yesterday I scheduled up a meeting with our old MC to see if we could work together towards un-winding our marriage. NOPE.  She'd rather lawyers talk.  She said money is not an issue for her... .WHAT?  OH F'ing great.

Each one of us is asking the other to "Go First" with regards to a suggested equitable distribution list.  I agreed that in a week I'd present her with one.

Do I start with a reasonable splitting, do I try to favor myself because I know there will be a "negotiation" upcoming?

Can I get some advice from you guys about the pros and cons of going for alimony and what is reasonable?  Should I go for a lump some and done approach even if I had to borrow money to do it, or... .

My God I am not looking forward to this.  I know I am still in the FOG of the breakdown of our marriage.  She is extremely "shoot from the hip" and is going to go passionately and irrationally seek revenge and she prob. has a pretty good sob story for leverage against me.

I haven't been on this board too much.  I need to focus on the logistics now and I know that a lot of you have custody battles, we just have a dog that God, but I would love to get some support and find some people who are in my shoes, slightly ahead of me or all the way done with this.  I feel like I have to storm Omaha beach and the landing craft door is just creaking open... .

[catnap]

Bill Eddy's book Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder is highly recommended. 

Her likely tactic will be to delay as much as possible.  Ask your L what his strategy will be for keeping the delays to the minimum.

[ForeverDad]

Your biggest enemy is delay.  The longer she stretches out the divorce case, the longer you have to give interim spousal support.  Try to keep the interim support as low as possible because if it is favorable for her then she will seek out every way to extend the gravy train.

The car.  She can demand all she wants but you don't have to enable her with a new car.  If her current car works and is in decent shape, court is not likely to side with her.

The house.  Can she afford it?  If not and if you don't want it either, then she will have to vacate and it will have to be sold and the equity split.  She will want to keep it and get extra alimony to pay the bills.  But if she can't get a refinance mortgage in her own name, a minimum requirement if she is to walk away with the house, then insist it has to be sold.  In no way on God's green earth should she get a house where you still pay the mortgage.  Be prepared if she fails to comply with any settlements to vacate, to prepare the house for showing, to allow showings or to sign at closings.

By the way, by making it to ten years you may not only have increased the risk of alimony, she now can latch onto your earnings history for Social Security benefits if she applies after you both are 62 and she is single.  Fortunately, what she does with SS doesn't hurt your record or benefits.

What your alimony risk is would probably be best estimated by a local experienced family law attorney.  Typically it is not more than half the length of the marriage, often it is less.  In my case I paid two months for every year of marriage, or one sixth the length.  More and more these days, short and moderate length marriages are seeing alimony intended not to be long term support but more like transitional support so the disadvantaged spouse has time to transition to single life.  In all your negotiations and conferences, try to always send that message, that its purpose is for the transition to single life for a limited amount of time.

Without custody issues, you case may not be High Conflict but it very well could be.  Best to choose an experienced lawyer who can handle protracted and intractable cases.  Bill Eddy's Splitting handbook is an essential for every divorce here.  You never know when allegations will be made.

Also, she may wave her cancer as a banner and justification, but you didn't cause it and she's recovered from it.  Try to keep it from taking over the case.

[Heartandsole]

Bill Eddy's book Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder is highly recommended. 

Her likely tactic will be to delay as much as possible.  Ask your L what his strategy will be for keeping the delays to the minimum.

Splitting has been ordered earlier this week and is one the way.   I saw a lot of chapters on custody, I hope that it is isn't too focused on things I don't need.

Your biggest enemy is delay.  The longer she stretches out the divorce case, the longer you have to give interim spousal support.  Try to keep the interim support as low as possible because if it is favorable for her then she will seek out every way to extend the gravy train.

Good news is that she wants this over and done with as soon as possible, at least that is what she is saying. I don't feel at all the she wants to use a delay tactic.  I think she wants to storm the castle and go for the scortched earth, shock and awe tactic.

Yesterday she said "If we can agree, we can be divorced in a month"  Sounds good, problem is that I expect that she will have exceptionally unrealistic expectations of what is fair, right and proper.

I guess time will tell.  Thanks for some posts already.  I have a good lawyer, and hopefully the Splitting book will get here before the weekend so I can dive in.

[Thunderstruck]

My SO is in a custody battle (never married) in FL and I believe the financial form is the same as if you were married. She'll be required to provide credit card and bank account statments for a year, so you'll see what she's been charging. I don't have much advice as to how to split up the assets, since SO and his uBPDx were never married so we don't have to do that part.

Have you read the FL statute?

www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String&URL=0000-0099/0061/Sections/0061.08.html

If you lawyer thinks alimony is almost certain, the "bridge-the-gap" alimony might be a good suggestion since she's young and capable of supporting herself eventually.

Florida court is going to want you to mediate. Mediators don't care about sob stories or who hurt who, they just want you two to come to an agreement. So present something aggressive. Stack it with things you are willing to "give away" in order for her to feel like she won something. Stick to your ground on your "must haves".

[Heartandsole]

Thanks for the advice so far guys. 

I am supposed to come up with a list of our assets and put a value on each and determine what I want.  This seems like a pretty big task, especially since I don't have access to the house 

I'd love to hear from some that have had to do this.  How fine of detail do you go on this?  Does anyone know of a template or something?  I have houses and cars and big electronics are easy, but picture frames kitchen tools and plate settings are harder.  Would love some direction in this dept.

[ForeverDad]

So she wants an offer.  Be forewarned that if you submitted an offer that split everything 50.00001% she would reject it outright or at least have an ever-growing list of changes, any number of concessions you made would be met with more demands and teaks.  So be very sure that whatever 'offer' is made must have an expiration date.  Perhaps even indicating this is a better offer you would make than if you go to mediation.

If you do go to mediation, as mentioned above, include a lot of things that you don't really care much about but by claiming them she'll think you really want them and then if you negotiate them away and she ends up with them she might think she 'won'.  Maybe.  The point is that she will perceive any offer you make as her starting point for demanding more and more.

Some things are "No way!"  If she wants the house free and clear, or with you still on the mortgage, No!  If she demands a new car, No!  If she demands (anything unreasonable or far beyond what a court might decide) then No!

The benefit of a court deciding is that you're more likely to get a less unreasonable decision than what she would agree to and if it's really bad you may be able to appeal.  The downside is that it can drag out the divorce for many months or even longer.

The benefit of a settlement (signed and filed in court) is that it can't be appealed and puts an end to the endless demands for more and more.  The downside is that a settlement too early in a divorce is likely to be too much in the ex's favor.  And a settlement in later in the process will have wasted time and money and while it might be less unreasonable it might not be that much better than a court decision.

She wants to settle quickly.  Time will tell how serious she is - and how unreasonable she is too.  If she decides not to quickly settle on fair terms, then be sure to keep the case moving as quickly as possible.  Don't agree to put the case on hold, it removes pressure from her to negotiate and makes any delays she causes to have less impact.  If her lawyer asks for more time, such as to make or respond to an offer, then tell them to send it but the case won't be paused.  (Yes, they can always file for and get a continuance - almost always a delay tactic such as to keep interim support going longer - but don't agree to take the pressure off.)

Each one of us is asking the other to "Go First" with regards to a suggested equitable distribution list.  I agreed that in a week I'd present her with one.

Why not say you'll trade lists?  That puts her under the same pressure as you.

How fine of detail do you go on this?  I have houses and cars and big electronics are easy, but picture frames, kitchen tools and plate settings are harder.

Do you really care about some of the minutia?  For some stuff I'd think you'd rather not get old stuff but start fresh.  Tools, that's reasonable to list since she may not be a mechanic.  Still, you can list some of those things and then negotiate them away later?  A lot of the used stuff will have to be craigs list values.  If you put too high a price she may say, okay, take them but give me half the declared value.

Remember that the value of the house, vehicles, etc is the assessed value minus the loans against them.  If you have a nice car or house but still owe big bucks on the loan, then your equity in it to split is smaller.

she told me this morning that she is going to have her lawyer talk to my lawyer about getting her a new car now, because "this is the time of the year to do it and she NEEDS it for work".

I bet that got a chuckle and  from your lawyer!

Before you obligate yourself to any major decision, please, please, come by here first and ask us for our thoughts.  We've "been there, done that", we have a general sense for what works and what doesn't, what is reasonable and what is unreasonable, what she might do and how you can protect yourself from it, what unseen risks there are to aspects of the deals, etc.

[maxen]

I am supposed to come up with a list of our assets and put a value on each and determine what I want.  This seems like a pretty big task, especially since I don't have access to the house  

I'd love to hear from some that have had to do this.  How fine of detail do you go on this?  :)oes anyone know of a template or something?  I have houses and cars and big electronics are easy, but picture frames kitchen tools and plate settings are harder.  Would love some direction in this dept.

hi heartandsole. we're in similar positions, i have a 7 year marriage, no children, but there's money at stake and most of it's mine. i'm just finishing my statement of net worth. is this what you mean by a template? it's for NYS.

https://www.nycourts.gov/forms/matrimonial/networth.pdf

Each one of us is asking the other to "Go First" with regards to a suggested equitable distribution list.  I agreed that in a week I'd present her with one.

Why not say you'll trade lists?  That puts her under the same pressure as you.

right, if you have a lawyer, you and your w should produce your statements and then the lawyers exchange. do not 'go first'. make it simultaneous.

[Heartandsole]

[/quote]
right, if you have a lawyer, you and your w should produce your statements and then the lawyers exchange. do not 'go first'. make it simultaneous.[/quote]
I think you are right, but I don't know how to force her to do that.  I think I can go pretty vague on this.  There are some things that aren't marital assets that she things are (never thought I would appreciate not making any contributions to my ROTH IRA during the last 10 yrs) 

I'm pretty sure she just want to know who gets what in the big picture b/c we have some stock accounts, and investment property and a house and business equity etc.  I think she is going to want to cash out and not really have a bunch of furniture and "things" as she wants to move and go travel or something like that.

GOOD ADVISE

[livednlearned]

In my divorce, N/BPDx agreed to basically everything. Then he didn't comply with any of it.

In family court, you become the enforcers of the orders that get written up, so make sure that you always have consequences in there. Lawyers don't always do that, because most (non-disordered) people comply with judge's orders. BPD sufferers don't work that way. By writing up the consequences you make it easy for the judge to rule in your favor when you have to take her back to court to get her to comply.

You already know she struggles with reasonable behavior. A lot of what you know about her -- because it's predictable -- should make it a little easier to put together a legal strategy. People here can help you with that. The key is to remember that who she was in the marriage is pretty much who she'll be in the divorce, plus a bit more, because legal stuff pushes buttons, even in non-disordered people.

Don't roll over and give away too much too soon -- you need leverage.

[maxen]

right, if you have a lawyer, you and your w should produce your statements and then the lawyers exchange. do not 'go first'. make it simultaneous.

I think you are right, but I don't know how to force her to do that.

there are ways to force the issue. if you submit yours to your L and the other party takes too long for your liking, your L can start to pester her L, and if it comes to it, your L can petition the court to initiate the negotiations. iirc it's called an RJI (request for judicial intervention) 

I think I can go pretty vague on this.

i don;t think you can. when i filled out mine i made sure that i could specifically or at least plausibly (in the case of artwork and furniture valuations) defend any claim I made and my L asked me, e.g., to list the serial numbers and dates of inheritance/purchase of my US savings bonds. putting in information makes the court's work easier, and they'll like you for that. 

There are some things that aren't marital assets that she things are (never thought I would appreciate not making any contributions to my ROTH IRA during the last 10 yrs) 

wonderful, isn't it? i made one contribution during the marriage, but my bank IRA is composed of a set of CDs so the only thing jeapordized is that one CD.

I'm pretty sure she just want to know who gets what in the big picture b/c we have some stock accounts, and investment property and a house and business equity etc.  I think she is going to want to cash out and not really have a bunch of furniture and "things" as she wants to move and go travel or something like that.

let that pass for now. just fill out the SNW and work with your L to determine what's separable.

[Heartandsole]

Thanks guys for your support and advice.  I found out this morning that she filed on Friday, so the line is in the sand.  Papers get served to me tomorrow.  Here we go... .  I have such a strange mix of emotions right now!

About to dive into financial affidavits etc.  What a pain!

[ForeverDad]

Anticipate that there will likely be extensive blaming in the divorce forms.  If so, while it won't be substantiated, you need to respond to them anyway and have them discounted as unsubstantiated and either grossly exaggerated or false.  You can't afford to leave any allegations unanswered or else you risk the judge actually accepting her inflated claims.

[Heartandsole]

So she has wanted to talk about equitable distribution ONLY face to face and nothing could be written down at the meeting.

This is when I had the boundary of no face to face communication until we can work with a counselor to agree on some "manners" and general rules of engagement so that I could avoid unreasonably long conversations where she just keeps arguing and raging when she doesn't agree ect. 

So we tried that and she called it a stupid waste of time, but she went.  Basically I went too so that I could save face and feel like I can talk to her and not go back on my word.  She told me at the meeting that she would now only accept written communication, and it is our lawyers that need to talk.

Now she wants to talk again to try and get some negotiations started about who gets what.

I have mixed feelings on this and could use some support and advice.  On one hand, talking about splitting assets and agreeing on things ahead of time theoretically saves a bunch of time and money IF it is possible.   On the other, even though she is allowed to change her mind at any time for any reason, I am a manipulating liar under the same circumstances in her mind.

I am trying to move quickly, and get a reasonable outcome with as little legal fees as possible.  She is wanting to know about how we are going to split some of the big things, and my lawyer is going to argue that some stock accounts and IRA are not marital assets and she for sure views them as her meal ticket.  So telling her about this is going to go over like a turd in a punchbowl. 

Avoiding the conversation altogether gives the impression of "just have your lawyer talk to my lawyer" which is a $500/hour chat when they get together and neither of them have an incentive to stop talking. 

My lawyer is suggesting that I not talk to her at all and focus on getting my Manditory Disclosure done and Financial Affidavit done and then she can review and counsel me.  To me that sounds like a good idea and also is a bit escalatory because I agreed to shoot over a first draft proposal of equitable distribution and now have missed the deadline.  I don't like the precedent I just set.

I would like to try and keep things as civil for as long as possible and feeling like I am between a rock and a hard place.  I don't want to say something or agree to something that then has to be rescinded because I was naive about this.  Thoughts?

[livednlearned]

Hi heartandsole,

I know you want to avoid an expensive divorce and play fair and avoid unnecessary conflict, but notice that you haven't even gotten to the point of negotiating things. A lot of your post is about how you two are going to negotiate. In person, only in writing, through lawyers, etc.

People who have low conflict divorces don't go around and around and around on the easy stuff like this. They just submit a proposal, the lawyers counsel their clients, and boom. It's done.

High conflict divorces don't work this way.

Your W is going to move the goal posts like this every step of the way. Then, when you think you have an agreement, she is going to say she never moved the goalpost, therefore the goal doesn't count. This will happen for everything. I know lawyers are expensive, and it feels like they're just doing it for the money, and maybe most are like that. But if you have a good lawyer, they can also minimize some of the conflict. It's possible that the lawyers just want to be done with the two of you, and think your case is one of the easiest ones they have (no custody, for example). Her lawyer may be able to defang the negotiations. There is often some posturing in front of the two of you so that their clients see them working for them, but most of these lawyers are colleagues and they know they have to get along and be collegial in order to work together and pull off future negotiations.

Make sure you know what your bottom line is, and be the boss of your case -- don't accept a deal that is highway robbery, and don't let your lawyer get lost in the weeds if you have one that's new at this.

You are going to lose money in this divorce, and it is going to drag on longer than it needs to. She may exasperate her lawyer so badly that he or she withdraws from the case. There will be continuances and delays. Whatever your W was like during the marriage, she is going to be a bunch of that times ten during the divorce. The lawyers may be better able to rein this in than you.

Do what you can through your lawyer. Use them as a protective shield to spare yourself the second-guessing.

[maxen]

hi again heartandsole. i'm going to say much of what lived'n'learned said, in different words. i know i'm not quite in your situation, but i was once in an awful FOG and was worried sick over how i would appear to my w. but i am 15 months since d-day and have come a ways emotionally and have just gone into the negotiation phase and can tell you what you might discover about your own situation down the road.

My lawyer is suggesting that I not talk to her at all and focus on getting my Manditory Disclosure done and Financial Affidavit done and then she can review and counsel me.

i think your lawyer is right. your w has been changing the terms about negotiation. she will likely continue to do whatever satisfies her emotions in any given week. "If we can agree, we can be divorced in a month" may mean "if my terms are met, and i'll decide what they are when i'm talking to you." that unpredictability is what you're going to continue to face if you don't let your L be the interference that she's being paid to be. nobody wants to spend a ton of money (i'm paying the same for my L as you are) but this is not the time to worry about costs (or are you paying your w's legal bills?). as to that, cases like ours, with no custody issues, are little ones for divorce lawyers. my own case was delayed two weeks recently because my L had to be present in court for 8 days straight on a custody argument. in her office yesterday i saw a filing as thick as War and Peace. mine was 5 pages, iirc and the case is never going to reach trial. if your lawyer is ethical she won't do anything to run up the tab (or only a little). they're not making their money from the likes of us.

again, i've been in the FOG. for many months i was uncomfortable with the idea of asserting my interests unapologetically. you must, as lived'n'learned said, be the boss of your case. i would counsel, don't move quickly unless you feel comfortable doing so. this will not incur any extra costs. she's on retainer and only is paid for the actual minutes she works for you. i told my L about 8 months ago that i was having a hard time emotionally (especially true with the mother problems i was having at the time) and she accepted that and let me be, and fended off the other side on the occasions when they got antsy. are you talking to a T during this?