The State Of Things April 23rd

[daz_bpd]

What makes it so hard for me is when she says "you don't care, you don't love me" and from her expression, emotions its clear she actually feels that way. When any observer looking in, would see that I have done everything possible to make things happen for her, while trying to provide and support for both our lives.

Right now, with 7 days left of the month, i don't have enough money to pay for month end expenses - we had created a budget, but half way through the month she informed me the money was gone and that other IMPORTANT expenses were left unpaid (where the money has gone, I don't know). In order for her to have any chance of passing the bar this year, several large tuition payments and extra refresher courses needed to be paid before cut off.

She is threatening to go to an older married man for money, and has just blocked me again and told me to "never message her again". Well, I will continue working for now, and wait... .

Im working through the '[L2] Decision Making Guidelines for Members of This Board' in between working to make money for the month end.

I'm trying to treat this as a personal challenge, and using yoga and meditation to get through what likely is extreme pressure and stress - I'm experiencing a constant 'buzzing' sensation throughout my body, and I desperately want to feel loved again, and intimate with someone I truly love. I don't want to turn to strangers for love, and I don't want to continue to go to my family and friends for emotional support or financial support - I don't want to burden them, its my fault I am still in this relationship. I must face the consequences of my actions. 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

This is hard, and these powerplay threats really hurt, and that is what they are powerplay, trying to use threats as leverage.

You must not react to these, as you can't control what she does. It is important that you stick to your plan of what you feel is right, and be consistent.

If she follows through with threats like this then what?

How will it affect how you go forward and how will it affect what she does in the future? What are the ongoing consequences, not the reactionary one to this instance?

What happens when she runs out of money next time, and the time after?

Precedents need to be set.

[daz_bpd]

I'm very concerned that she has exhausted all her 'safe' means of acquiring money through family and friends. There was one 'scare' when she borrowed from a loan shark and her job was in jeopardy, I bailed her out of that in time.

If I had to stop helping her and she began seeking money through more risky means, she may lose all respect from family and friends, lose her job and likely hurt several people. She may also put herself in a dangerous position.

I'm trying to figure out the answers to some of your questions. I need to clarify my boundaries, my challenge has been making the distinction between reckless spending and essentials, or emergencies. Since, it seems there is always drama or an 'emergency' requiring more money and not everything can be tracked.

[GaGrl]

What does she say when you ask where the money was spent?  That is, are you asking in which part(s) of her budget she is overspending?

[daz_bpd]

She tells me to "forget about it, it's in the past, the money is gone". If I try bring up the topic of money she says "i hate it when we talk about money all the time".

I know where it is going - she will buy clothes, accessories, plenty of make-up, products, plus she eats out, she is always going to the shopping mall to make herself feel better - this is happening DAILY, every... . single... . day. Then she wants to buy gifts for her daughter because she isn't there for her (her daughter lives with her grand parents), but of course she cannot afford any of this so asks me for money for all these things. Her phone bill has exceeded DOUBLE her salary 3 times!  Often calling me when she had another outburst and I withdraw from her OR when she tries to control me and had enough. Then its more gifts for friends, and then plane tickets to travel. Relatively speaking, she has spent up to 5 times her own salary also at least 3 times in the last 9 months. Its exhausted all my extra cash to make things happen for her.

I can see I'm actually just ranting at this point, this isn't helpful. As long as I don't rant at her, though, at least I'm avoiding invalidating her further.

[waverider]

Impulsive spenders will spend. The will always blow smoke over where it went. Always be defensive, and aggressive when pushed. If you can make "agreements" they will be broken. That is the nature of obsessive and addictive behavior.

There will always be consequences, only you can choose who wears them.

If you wear the consequences why would she change? Either way she may never change. Only you can change things otherwise they will stay exactly the same.

It is hard I know and you wont be able to do it overnight but you have to start sometime if you want to get anywhere different.

Think of the bigger problems rather than individual issues

[formflier]

If I try bring up the topic of money she says "i hate it when we talk about money all the time".

Possible line for you... .

"Me too... .I'll be available to discuss money on the last day of this month"  And stick to it.

A quick comment on boundaries... .one that I am working through as well.  Boundaries apply both ways... .if we put boundaries on them... .we also need to put boundaries on ourselves.

If we don't want them "on our property" (inside our boundary) doing things that we don't want.

We also shouldn't be "on their property" doing things that they should be doing.  Many times this looks like a rescue.

I've found it to be a bit more difficult to put boundaries on myself... .that on her.  I would have thought it would have been the other way around.

[daz_bpd]

Well it took her another day to make another financial blunder. She seems to be more sincere about it this time, before asking me for more money a few minutes later. Clearly, I have been angry with her in the past and she expects a bad reaction. But I am working on maintaining my composure, and being accepting of who she is.

H:I paid for my tix here and bought a dress. Thats why the money wasnt enough. I lied to you because I really wanted to go but too ashamed to tell you. Coz you were losing.

[8:21:53 PM] Me: Thank you for being honest with me now.

[8:23:29 PM] H: Are you angry? You have every right to be.

Me: No. I feel okay. I know how hard things are for you, I know how much you are struggling right now, and how much pain you are in

Was I at least able to communicate better here?

H: ugh i need more money

[9:06:31 PM | Edited 9:11:10 PM] D: Babe, at this present moment I cannot afford to send you anymore money. I still do care about you and love you very much.

[9:14:52 PM] H: $100 is all I have and it wont be enough for me and [her daughter]

I promptly send her more dollars so that she can attend her friend's wedding and take her daughter with her She doesn't see her daughter often and our time with our loved ones are important. I will have to re-evaluate my income / expenses again.

But of course, this is an ongoing problem. She still lied, and money still went 'missing' and she can't keep buying new clothes, jewellery etc when she isn't contributing anything to the household and making my life miserable.

[formflier]

 

I'm confused... .was this an incident from the past you are explaining to us... .or did this just happen.

Sorry... .it's late... .I may be a bit thickheaded... .

FF

[an0ught]

H:I paid for my tix here and bought a dress. Thats why the money wasnt enough. I lied to you because I really wanted to go but too ashamed to tell you. Coz you were losing.

[8:21:53 PM] Me: Thank you for being honest with me now.

[8:23:29 PM] H: Are you angry? You have every right to be.

Me: No. I feel okay. I know how hard things are for you, I know how much you are struggling right now, and how much pain you are in

Was I at least able to communicate better here?

She was more honest. Were you about your emotions?

H: ugh i need more money

[9:06:31 PM | Edited 9:11:10 PM] D: Babe, at this present moment I cannot afford to send you anymore money. I still do care about you and love you very much.

[9:14:52 PM] H: $100 is all I have and it wont be enough for me and [her daughter]

I promptly send her more dollars so that she can attend her friend's wedding and take her daughter with her She doesn't see her daughter often and our time with our loved ones are important. I will have to re-evaluate my income / expenses again.

Relationships are important but consequences are important too. This is additional unplanned money and she should have to cut back somewhere to compensate for it.

And yes, it is terrible, disastrous and embarrassing not to be able to afford everything and more (validate, validate, validate) . Money sadly can be spent only once.

But of course, this is an ongoing problem. She still lied, and money still went 'missing' and she can't keep buying new clothes, jewellery etc when she isn't contributing anything to the household and making my life miserable.

How much of it can you see? Where does all this stuff physically go?

[daz_bpd]

@formflier this just happened. I didn't maintain my boundaries with finances - I the cycle, I just wanted to bring some joy into her life and allow her time with her daughter.

Of course she has reverted to 'victim' again, she just sent me this now - as there is no more money again.

H: im in big trouble

[5:22:47 PM] H: babe im serious ;(

[5:23:40 PM] Me: Huh, explain further

[5:24:18 PM] Me: The extra $50 you asked for doesn't cover everything and you need more cash? All the money sent this weekend wasn't enough?

[5:25:07 PM] H: NO ;( ;( ;( ;(

[5:25:21 PM] H: Im gonna die. i dont know what to do

[babyducks]

. I didn't maintain my boundaries with finances - ... .

- as there is no more money again.

what do you think might help you maintain the boundary this time?

[daz_bpd]

H:I wish I could make her happy (speaking about her daughter)

H: Im just stuck right now ;(

[6:03:18 PM] Me: You are, today you made her very happy indeed, and most importantly you are spending time with her. All she needs is your love and guidance

H: I know. But simple stuff

H: I only spend a few days with her. She asked me if we can go out tomorrow afternoon. And i was teary eyed

H: I dont have money to go out with her. I wish I did. It makea her so happy to go out with me and eat and eat and eat

i wish i was more responsible

1. I cant pay for the hotel

2. I dont have tix for ***

3. I cant take her out

[6:06:00 PM] Me: Do you feel that by enabling you, I haven't allowed you to learn and manage money well on your own?

[6:06:06 PM] H: Its devastating. I wish things were different

[6:09:01 PM] H: No.

[6:10:11 PM] H: Babe please help me. I need you. Im devastated and lost.

[flowerpath]

I can see how the change in how you are responding to her and focusing on her feelings is resulting in a change in her tone.  She seems like she is more open to hearing what you are saying without stomping her feet and verbally abusing you. 

She is devastated and lost because she is accustomed to always having money to do the things she wants to do, but now there is no money for it.  She is sweetly pushing at your boundary.

This big event - an unplanned expense - at YOUR expense(?) - has come up right when you are at the beginning of marking your financial boundary.  I am finding that even though I have financial boundaries marked in my head, there are surprises, and I have to work with my boundaries without totally giving in. 

For most of us out here, if there’s not money for tickets, for eating out, buying stuff, we don’t get to do those things.  We find things to do that are low cost or free.   You put emphasis on the most important thing – spending time together, love, and guidance - and they can do in free or inexpensive ways, like taking a walk in a park, window shopping, having a cup of coffee, etc.  Maybe not what she wants to do, but again, for most of us... ."you can't always get what you want... ."

The mentality of how she is expecting you to pay for all of this is really something to behold.   

You can still draw a line in the sand.  What is absolutely necessary for her right now?  A roof over her head and food.  Is there a way you can pay for the hotel without the money getting into her hands?  It's pretty obvious she will likely spend what you send her and then will still come up at the end with no money to pay for the hotel.  Can you walk her through how much is available for food and how she will need to budget that across breakfast, lunch, and dinner? 

 

[formflier]

 

Got it... .

I'll try to look through the lessons... .and find the one on boundaries and intermittent reinforcement.

That is the "psychology" of the slot machine.  Every so often it pays off.

As long as a person believes this... .they will keep playing.

This is why consistency is so important with pwBPD traits. 

I would encourage you to think about what boundaries... .limits you can do consistently... .and stick with those... .for now.

FF

[waverider]

Couple of workshops

Intermittant Reinforcement

BOUNDARIES - Living our values

[daz_bpd]

Okay, so I paid for the hotel, travel expenses and both her and her daughter are back safely at the family house with her grandparents. Now she wants money to fly to another city, back to her work, but she won't have more cash to live there, and the cycle will likely continue

Her: You are not listening. I need the money now to book and fly in a couple of hours

Her: I am literally crying coz you are not listening by heart

when remaining calm, and stating my boundaries

Her: [my name]. Focus. I need the money now. (interestingly, she isn't being sweet to me any more, nor using 'babe' or our pet names)

Her: I wish you dont talk to me that way.

Her: You are very frustrating. Are you not gonna help me?

i won't be sending her any more money. I can't really afford to any way. At least she is at her family/parent's house.

@flowerpath, thank you for your response. She feels massively entitled to things, and acts completely dumbfounded when hearing the word 'no'. when I first began exploring online for help, i came across several videos by Sam Vaknin on Narcissism, all the traits and models suggested in his videos matched completely with her behaviour (gaslight, grandiosity, hypersensitivty then anger, hate, projection, dissociation) . Later, after finding bpdfamily.com the models for our relationship also fitted quite well.

@formflier, unfortunately, at this time. I simply cannot go on any more. The threshold for available funds was reached weeks ago. Right now, I don't have enough to cover all my month end expenses.

@waverider, I am reading through the links provided, thank you

and now this... .

H:I DONT HAVE TIME FOR THIS

H: I AM ASKING YOU FOR HELP

H: AND YOU JUST TALK AND TALK AND TALK

H: THIS IS AN EMERGENCY!

H: I really cant trust you can I

H:You just dont care when its important.

Now that I know what she is likely to say, it helps me to remain an 'observer' and not engage. But how much more energy, and time to put into this. I know she can go on for hours and hours

[an0ught]

Hi daz_BPD,

you are doing at the moment hard work. Defending boundaries is not easy and has consequences  . Not defending boundaries like in the past also had consequences just not so immediate ones (draining funds, getting her addicted to the slot machine). Don't blame yourself for it - plenty of others have done the same - the sob stories we are told would cause a stone to become soft.

Boundaries are means to protect the necessities. Switching from following "wants" to what "is needed" is a big change. But once needs are taken care off things will get easier again.

This is now a really hard stretch. You are now taking back control of your life  .

Hang in there 

[daz_bpd]

@aNought, thank you for the kind words, unfortunately, she called me and 'convinced me' her job will be over if she doesn't not return to work tonight.

This is a NECESSARY expense, her job is critical and she will get her salary paid on wednesday next.

I'm paying for a plane ticket for her to return to her work. Rent has been paid for the next two months. I told her "I'm cutting you off completely now". If she needs to find another guy to pay for her, so be it. I'm done with this for now. My life 'reset button' is being pressed... .NOW

[an0ught]

daz_BPD,

change is hard. Principles can not stand tall without there being exceptions. But also principles can not be principles without them hurting at times. Navigating this is never easy.

I told her "I'm cutting you off completely now".

Prepare for the next round of extinction burst some time later... .

You are doing well 

[babyducks]

daz,

So sorry to read what's going on with you.  anOught is right this is tough stuff.   Change is hard.   

I clicked on the link that waverider provided to boundaries living our values and reviewed some of the words written about defending our boundaries.

I saw this from Mollyd

An important aspect of "boundaries" is that it sometimes takes some effort to grasp is the idea that values are a commitment to myself  - not an attempt to force change or control another person

It made me think of what you wrote about your life reset button being pressed.  You are a good person daz.  You deserve financial stability and security.  That's a commitment to make to yourself.   Defending that commitment can be hard.   You're worth it.   

'ducks

[flowerpath]

Sounds like a turning point for you, daz.

Things do happen and don’t always go the way I’ve planned it on paper, but I’m finding that every step toward putting the financial house in order, no matter how large or small, is very self-reinforcing and feels like a victory.

Hang in there! 

[formflier]

"I'm cutting you off completely now". 

Do you think she believes this?  What did she say?

[daz_bpd]

Her response to the boundaries is "I want to talk with you if you will let me". Her last message me to me after this weekend was ... .

H: Thank you.

H: Im sorry for everything. I will never leave you as long as you want me

Im focusing on my work till month end, and went to spend time with a good friend and family. I also went for a hike, did some meditation and reading

Thank you everyone for sharing your kindness, love and guiding me through these difficult times. It means a lot to me