Ill or Evil

[Depression = 72% of members]

Reading and posting for the past few weeks on here, every category, all the horrific experiences, all the ways of coming to terms with our r/s and becoming strong enough to move forward or stay, all the coping mechanisms learnt from here and from our own selves, there appears to be a quite clear though not equal division. Are they ill or are they evil. Or in some cases could they be both?

It is without doubt that BPD is a serious mental illness, that knowledge gained from despair and also the love, understanding and support I have been given from here has allowed me to feel compassion and love for my ex but finally sit back and know if it is between him and me I have to choose me. It does not lessen or diminish the love I feel for him in fact in some ways it enhances it. By that I don't mean a feeling of superiority, I mean an awakening to the terrible anxiety and internal loneliness he has to deal with on a daily basis. Hard as it has been I do not now take what he has done or said to me personally. Through all my unhappiness and total confusion as to why he was doing this to me I have been seriously angry, hated him and god forgive me even wished him dead but I have never thought he was evil.

Now and then I read " don't let this evil twisted person get to you any longer" or similar. What I would like to know, is this the way of some non's coping mechanism, the only way to deal with the horror that is happening to them and if months down the line are they still of the same opinion?

I read that pwBPD don't have a breath of guilt or conscience. Does real evil exist in pwBPD. It appears to me that the easiest evil to hide is the one with no conscience attached to it. If you don't feel remorse or responsibility there is no mirror reflecting it back, like black glass, opaque.

I just cannot get my head around it that these poor unfortunate sufferers are evil and yet in other, dare I say normal, walks of life truly evil people do exist.

I am not sure if I have explained my thoughts properly but I would really appreciate any feedback.

[Sadly]

Reading and posting for the past few weeks on here, every category, all the horrific experiences, all the ways of coming to terms with our r/s and becoming strong enough to move forward or stay, all the coping mechanisms learnt from here and from our own selves, there appears to be a quite clear though not equal division. Are they ill or are they evil. Or in some cases could they be both?

It is without doubt that BPD is a serious mental illness, that knowledge gained from despair and also the love, understanding and support I have been given from here has allowed me to feel compassion and love for my ex but finally sit back and know if it is between him and me I have to choose me. It does not lessen or diminish the love I feel for him in fact in some ways it enhances it. By that I don't mean a feeling of superiority, I mean an awakening to the terrible anxiety and internal loneliness he has to deal with on a daily basis. Hard as it has been I do not now take what he has done or said to me personally. Through all my unhappiness and total confusion as to why he was doing this to me I have been seriously angry, hated him and god forgive me even wished him dead but I have never thought he was evil.

Now and then I read " don't let this evil twisted person get to you any longer" or similar. What I would like to know, is this the way of some non's coping mechanism, the only way to deal with the horror that is happening to them and if months down the line are they still of the same opinion?

I read that pwBPD don't have a breath of guilt or conscience. Does real evil exist in pwBPD. It appears to me that the easiest evil to hide is the one with no conscience attached to it. If you don't feel remorse or responsibility there is no mirror reflecting it back, like black glass, opaque.

I just cannot get my head around it that these poor unfortunate sufferers are evil and yet in other, dare I say normal, walks of life truly evil people do exist.

I am not sure if I have explained my thoughts properly but I would really appreciate any feedback.

[enlighten me]

Hi Sadly

You raise a number of points and there could probably be a huge debate on good versus evil and all that.

My thoughts seem to parallel yours.

They are like us all different. Some may do what they do out of survival with no malicious intent. Others may do it because they enjoy hurting others and some may do it out of a mixture of malice and survival.

The way people throw the word evil around could be a coping mechanism as it makes it easier for them. I will admit that I went through stages as seeing my exs as evil. We all have our own ways of dealing with things and who can say what the right or wrong way is. It all boils down to what works for you.

It does annoy me though when people cant accept others views when they are put across in a healthy and non confrontational way.

Personally I don't think my exs are evil. Emotionally immature, scared, confused, lost but not evil as such. Some of their actions have been evil and malicious but I see this as the immaturity. The actions you would expect from a child. If that is the case does it make children evil? Theyre not equipped to deal with the world and they do things to get by that aren't considered healthy.

[LostGhost]

Some of my latest posts go into this a bit. I believe they are not inherently evil. I think they are human beings just like the rest of us, capable of good and bad decisions. However, the illness of BPD and the way it presents and manifests itself at times can certainly appear evil.

A distinction should be made between the illness and the person. They are suffering from BPD. They did not ask to be this way and I think they would like to have peace and contentment in their lives the same as anyone else.

The illness itself though is a black hole to me. It consumes without mercy and does not pause to consider how you feel about its actions.

[nonbpdis-m]

Some of my latest posts go into this a bit. I believe they are not inherently evil. I think they are human beings just like the rest of us, capable of good and bad decisions. However, the illness of BPD and the way it presents and manifests itself at times can certainly appear evil.

A distinction should be made between the illness and the person. They are suffering from BPD. They did not ask to be this way and I think they would like to have peace and contentment in their lives the same as anyone else.

The illness itself though is a black hole to me. It consumes without mercy and does not pause to consider how you feel about its actions.

I am really struggling to see my BPD-GF as anything other than malicious at this moment in time.  She will say and do things that hit the bullseye emotionally, which is clearly done on purpose and with full intent at causing harm to me.  She came in at 1:30 am this morning drunk to tell e how a guy had finally made her feel beautiful and sexy and she felt like herself again.  The guy also was desperate to take her back to his hotel room which she described as 'someone showing her respect'.  She also said the fact that she did not cheat was a sign of her love for me and that If I didn't believe her I could touch her and prove that she did not do anything (the lady doth protest too much methinks).  This was not survival it was a cold rehearsed speech designed to cause confusion, jealousy and pain (and therefore malicious).  We keep making excises for our BPD partners when quite often, there aren't any.

[enlighten me]

Hi nonBPDsis

I too had an almost identical conversation with my exgf. Guy hit in her and wanted to take her back to his hotel. The fact that she didn't showed she loved me etc etc.

Now look at it as if it was a child trying to get your attention. Maybe in the scenario of two friends.

child - X wants to play with me and says they like me. I didn't play with them as your my friend.

What would you think the child is getting at? Are they being malicious or trying to express something that they cant put into words?

This is how I see my ex. Emotionally immature.

[seang]

They are Ill.  We see their actions as "evil".  I guess a NBPD would come across as more evil!

Bottom line, they are not well, they dont see their actions as Evil through denial and projecting.  So if they are not intentionally committing an evil act, but rather its "how they are", then they can not , buy definition, be Evil.

My is Evil tho!  LOL

[Sadly]

Hey this is great, thank you all for your replys. I tell you why this evil versus ill came into my thoughts.

When I look at my exe's eyes as he is shouting into mine what a lying useless waste of space I am I never saw signs of pleasure in it, just a world of anger in his eyes and sometimes which actually p*ssed me off more a smug self satisfaction that he had said his piece and felt he was in the right to let me know what I was!

He would sometimes storm off afterwards or even stranger stay and act like nothing had happened! I never saw evil or pleasure though. Funny thing, when he was being ok with me he rarely looked into my eyes. Rarely did emotion except at our beginning, the anger was his release I guess. If I ever answered back he would say "right, do you want me to go" In the beginning I would say of course not, I just don't know why you are doing this. Soon learnt not to do that I can tell you, however later when I used to say yes go, I don't want you here talking to me like that go away I would see genuine confusion in his face. So so mixed up but not evil.

I have of course been reading a lot of posts here and see a lot of terribly sad horrible stories but still view them in the same way until recently when after reading one persons posts about their pwBPD's actions/words I couldn't see their partner as anything but pure evil. I cannot tell you why, or what the difference was and have tried re reading them over and over but I still get that same impression. It worried me a great deal.

Enlighten me

It is good you used the words emotionally immature. One of my guys most often repeated days at school stories that still winds him up now is when he was told he was immature, all those years ago and it still hits him hard. Strange.

Thanks again everyone, I am finding this very interesting and it is good to hear other opinions. 

ps. I also like the analogy EM used to nonBPDsis, that childish playground talk is spot on. Unfortunately seeing it, hearing it, knowing it is hard to seperate from the emotional pain felt when someone does these things to you. xx

[Herodias]

Everything I have read pretty much shows they know what they are doing. It's screwed up because they are ill. But they make the choices- I feel like we feel sorry for them and stay because of them being mentally ill. Remember- mine told me he could manipulate people. He knows what he is doing- it's the narcissistic side of Bpd... .mine also called himself  "an evil devil"!

[enlighten me]

Hi Sadly

its funny you saying about your ex hating being called immature. My exgf during some of her rants would say " I don't play stupid games. Im not a silly little girl". Reminded me of a child trying to be a grown up.

Herodias

Its a tough one. We all see things differently. My recovery has swung all over the place like a tether ball. Just because they are ill doesn't mean you have to stay with them. That part is all on the individual and their reasons can all be different. I realised something wasn't right with my exgf but stayed because of guilt and numerous other reasons. A big part of it was probably my ego as it wouldn't let me give up on her and wanted me to prove her wrong and show her I wasn't who she was making me out to be.

Others stay because of religion. others for fear of being alone. The list could go on and on.

Im not saying your wrong to think of them as evil what Im saying is that for me it o longer helps. If my exgf was pure evil what does that say about me? What is it about me that could be attracted and care for pure evil?

My exgf cheated on me numerous times while I was away. Not a nice thing to do right. For me it helped to see her as a child that couldn't resist temptation. Just because a child steals from the cookie jar doesn't make it evil. It just means its not mature enough to resist its impulses. I know this may seem a little bit different to an adult cheating but the principles the same in my eyes.

[Lifewriter16]

My two-penny worthworth:

What if the people are ill and the behaviour is evil?

Lifewriter

[Sadly]

Hi Herodias, I guess it must be very difficult when your partner actually admits to being manipulative on purpose, meaning he knows and hurts you on purpose. I once called mine a manipulative bully, he was furious, his father was and is a bully and he has seen it all his life, that really hit a nerve and denial came swift and true. I guess there are degrees of BPDness ( I know its not a word but it's what popped into my brain) I feel sorry for my ex and love him very much but I would not stay with him just because he is mentally ill. I am not staying with him because it is destroying me and that can't be allowed. I suppose I just have a problem with the word EVIL. I should imagine the reasons for staying are long and varied. I stayed with mine longer than I should have done, because quite frankly I loved him, was so blinded with confusion when the bad started I couldn't believe it was happening, until I learnt otherwise thought I was being tested, all sorts of reasons, until I realised I didn't want to live anymore, then it turned, I stopped. My mum and dad were not perfect and they are both dead now but they were so proud of me. What sort of a legacy would that be, how much would they have hated to see what I had become. I could actually hear my mums voice saying "come on girl, make like a pair of curtains and pull yourself together"

(not really hearing voices, honest)


I suppose I just have a problem with the word EVIL. I guess it is synonymous with childhood fears of God and the Devil xx

[monkeygirl555]

Hi nonBPDsis

I too had an almost identical conversation with my exgf. Guy hit in her and wanted to take her back to his hotel. The fact that she didn't showed she loved me etc etc.

Now look at it as if it was a child trying to get your attention. Maybe in the scenario of two friends.

child - X wants to play with me and says they like me. I didn't play with them as your my friend.

What would you think the child is getting at? Are they being malicious or trying to express something that they cant put into words?

This is how I see my ex. Emotionally immature.

Emotionally immature is very accurate

[Sadly]

Hi LW

yep I see what you are saying and their behaviour can be described as evil but are they evil themselves, or ill? Sounds a bit topsy turvy but I think I know what I mean

[scgator]

I realised something wasn't right with my exgf but stayed because of guilt and numerous other reasons. A big part of it was probably my ego as it wouldn't let me give up on her and wanted me to prove her wrong and show her I wasn't who she was making me out to be.

Yep, this sounds exactly like me. I stuck with the rs as long as I possibly could to show her I wasn't this monster she thought I was. I was sure she would see it but unfortunately I think it was projection and denial on her part.

Evil or ill? To me, the end result is the same. The effects of her words, actions and behavior sent me into an anxiety and fear filled depression. Was she evil? All I really know is that my ex was CRUEL. She learned all my buttons and had no problem pushing them all when she was dysregulated or when I didn't give in to her.

My exgf cheated on me numerous times while I was away. Not a nice thing to do right. For me it helped to see her as a child that couldn't resist temptation. Just because a child steals from the cookie jar doesn't make it evil. It just means its not mature enough to resist its impulses. I know this may seem a little bit different to an adult cheating but the principles the same in my eyes.

This was pretty much the deal breaker for me. I was willing to work with her and her behavior by learning new communication tools but I was not willing to stand by and have her run off and sleep with an ex every time she felt she was being abandoned or engulfed. Lol, and the sad part is she would just project it onto me and accuse me of doing it, which she's done already.

After I left, she admitted she hit lower and harder than she ever had before. She KNEW exactly what she had said and done to me. I think back on the manipulation I let myself be put through, the crazy-making episodes, the lies, the attacks, and the label "evil" or "ill" just fall by the wayside and the label "cruel" sticks.

[enlighten me]

After I left, she admitted she hit lower and harder than she ever had before. She KNEW exactly what she had said and done to me. I think back on the manipulation I let myself be put through, the crazy-making episodes, the lies, the attacks, and the label "evil" or "ill" just fall by the wayside and the label "cruel" sticks.

This is what I mean by emotional immaturity. A child can know all the buttons to push to upset their parents even at a very young age. They know its wrong but they do it anyway. They also know how to manipulate. Its something that as they mature they grow out of. This is why I cant help but think my exs where emotionally immature and they never got out of their childhood mind set.

[Gonzalo]

I think my ex- is a broken person who would like to be a good person but doesn't understand how and doesn't have the tools to cope with her emotions. Because of BPD she can't look at herself honestly and improve, and she never has a good picture of an emotional situation because of 'feelings create facts'. It doesn't help that her whole life has been like this, so she thinks a relationship with constant shouting and hurt feelings is just the way things go. I find it all really sad, there's a sweet, fun girl mixed into there who's never going to be able to live the life she wants because she keeps sabotaging her relationships and finances, but can't see that she's doing it. If I was angry at her, I can't really think of a worse punishment to inflict on her than what she goes through.

@enlighten me I agree, it didn't seem that she wanted to hurt me, and sometimes did things that were caring, it was just that wild, childlike desperation flailing around. I wish that I could sit down and tell her what went on, that her condition is not normal, and that she needs DBT... .and have her listen to it and believe it and get her life in order. But that won't ever happen.

[Michelle27]

The behaviors confused me so much when they appeared after 5 years together.  The rages and lies were all excused because it was blamed on my behaviors or the lies weren't really lies and I tried to believe them despite all evidence to the contrary.  My own self esteem/confidence was so low I spent years working on changing me to avoid the rages.  Of course, that didn't work.   5 years ago I came across BPDs existence and it explained so much but of course nothing changed no matter what lengths I went to.  :)uring the past year, he got some clarity on his own behaviors and explained the raging as making him feel better no matter what was said or done during them.  Seems he wanted me to just move on past them without concern about how I was left feeling.  That felt evil to me and while I know it was nothing but survival skills because of the illness.  I tried to have patience and understanding but I can't get past the cheating, lies and smear campaigns that were directed my way as "survival" anymore.  I finally realized that I deserve happiness and that I won't get it while in a relationship with someone who is as emotionally immature as he is.  There may have been a tiny part of me that wondered whether or not I ended things too soon... .before he had a chance to fix it, but that worry evaporated within weeks when I saw him repeating the same patterns he did with me... .a new woman, a dozen roses delivered the first week he met her, giving her the impression he's the most amazing, sensitive, loving man she's ever met, etc...  

[enlighten me]

Hi Gonzalo

I too have wanted to sit my exs down and explain things but like you I realise it would be pointless.

[scgator]

Hi Gonzalo

I too have wanted to sit my exs down and explain things but like you I realise it would be pointless.

I've been there too. I was soo close one night to just telling her everything I had learned about BPD. I stopped myself though because I knew, deep down, she would have just turned it around on me and it would be one more thing to project onto me and complain to her friends about. I can't say enough how sad it all is. Her survival skill is to sabotage every close relationship she's been in and thankfully my survival skills finally kicked in before I married her. I give her credit for trying to make it work though. We both tried.

[apollotech]

Hi Sadly,

Not evil, just a child with a whole suite of very maladapted, destructive coping mechanisms. I would also caution you in applying too much sympathy to them or their situation. Yes, you see them as broken with broken life strategies, but that doesn't mean that they see it that way. People with BPD are sprinters in the relationship race, not long-distance runners; as a result, their maladapted coping mechanisms work quite well for the sprint (They go in and out of relationships easily.). If the end goal is just to not be alone, then their strategies work effectively/efficiently---for them!

[gameover]

I think 'good' and 'evil' are kind of absurd, simplistic terms in which to think of other people.  Like if a person you were in a relationship with treated you awesome most of the time, was generous and caring to other people, and screwed you over at the end--is there some sort of equation that determines what the sum of their morality is? 

Of course, after being screwed over you might see them as evil, but that's sort of a limited, egotistical perspective, isn't it?  I definitely don't think my BPDexgf is evil; at her core she's a good person, who makes an effort to be good to other people and succeeds most of the time.  She's brought a lot of joy into people's lives who will never see her destructive side; and she brought a lot of joy into my life before her destructive side sabotaged the relationship.  Sometimes it seems personal or malicious, but any hurt I felt was simply the effect of collateral damage.  Her behavior wasn't about me.

[rotiroti]

'Good' and 'evil' are really relative. BPD or not, I think it's important to take the actions of our partners into account. Either they work for us or they do not.

As in many cases here on the leaving board, BPD behaviors are deal-breakers for many nons. It definitely was for me.

I joined this site to seek answers to my failed engagement, but the reality is that we weren't right for each other. First I felt angry at her having wronged me, then I was sad at the loss and at her chaotic life, but then realized that's who she truly is. No one can change that.

It's interesting to see the 'success' stories over on the leaving board. The ones that stayed and have made things work aren't the ones where the BPD partners changed. Rather it was where the non accepted the fact that things were not going to get better.

[FannyB]

Hi Sadly

My ex most definitely wasn't 'evil' - though several of my predecessors lacking knowledge of BPD may beg to differ! 

Don't know if 'evil' even exists in the modern world, as every type of bad behaviour seems to be attributed to some condition or other e.g. 'naughty' kids in my day now have ADHD etc.


Fanny

[AlonelyOne]

I've reached the point where I believe my exBPDW to be both ill and evil.  Perhaps we should call them, "ev-ill".

[Mutt]

I think 'good' and 'evil' are kind of absurd, simplistic terms in which to think of other people.  Like if a person you were in a relationship with treated you awesome most of the time, was generous and caring to other people, and screwed you over at the end--is there some sort of equation that determines what the sum of their morality is?  

Of course, after being screwed over you might see them as evil, but that's sort of a limited, egotistical perspective, isn't it?  I definitely don't think my BPDexgf is evil; at her core she's a good person, who makes an effort to be good to other people and succeeds most of the time.  She's brought a lot of joy into people's lives who will never see her destructive side; and she brought a lot of joy into my life before her destructive side sabotaged the relationship.  Sometimes it seems personal or malicious, but any hurt I felt was simply the effect of collateral damage.  Her behavior wasn't about me.

My ex does display compassion with volunteering time and helping others in need and she self-sabotages and has a pattern of chaotic inter-personal relationships. I didn't understand black and white thinking in our marriage, I also had my own twisted thinking with all or nothing thinking. I now see how destructive extreme black and white thinking is and believing that it's either one of two things and not assessing both sides and the in-between. Her actions are driven by the disorder.

[SummerStorm]

They know how to push buttons and do what will make them feel better/be liked at the time.  Mine knows that, when she doesn't reply to my texts, I get mad.  With other people, I don't mind, since I know that they are busy.  But with her, it annoys me to no extent because she's always on her phone.  So, I know that she has read them. 

She has a whole new group of friends now, mostly people she works with.  So, she has to impress them and make them think that everyone else in her life is crazy.  Things were cordial between us for a month.  Then, when I mentioned that we aren't friends anymore because she ended our friendship, she went cold.  She always answered my texts at a certain time in the morning, but on Thursday, she waited.  Then, she just stopped replying.  Her birthday was Friday, and I sent her a message.  I never got a reply, so throughout the day, I sent messages.  She read them all day, showed them to her new friends, and then told them how crazy I am. 

This behavior is deliberate.  It's definitely a coping mechanism, but it's deliberate.  It's the same thing she did in June when she discarded me.  She feels engulfed, stops replying to me, and then convinces everyone I'm crazy.  I totally take the blame for sending her streams of angry messages, but at this point, I don't care if she thinks I'm crazy or not. 

[Invictus01]

Ill or evil, in the end, it just doesn't matter. They just live in some alternate universe where normal rules of human behavior just don't apply to them. And it is up to you to decide if you want to put up with this. I think they have rare moments of clarity where they do realize that what they do is screwed up. Like when after months and months of behaving like throwing me out of her life with a 3 sentence text was normal, my ex finally told me "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to lead you on" And that's what makes it tough - these rare moment when you think he/she gets it. But then, it goes back to the behavior that you can't and don't want to accept.

[Mutt]

Hi SummerStorm,

They know how to push buttons and do what will make them feel better/be liked at the time.  Mine knows that, when she doesn't reply to my texts, I get mad.

I understand how a birthday would be a time that's triggering and how frustrating that would be when a pwBPD don't respond to a text, email or call. Your phrase and the bolded part stuck out for me with how my ex would say how I upset her and the emotional responses that would illicit with me. We're responsible with our own feelings and how we react to someone else's actions.

What works and helps with non's to get off the emotional rollercoaster is to detach.

Attachment Leads to Suffering.

Detachment Leads to Freedom.

--------------------------------->

What Now and then I read " don't let this evil twisted person get to you any longer" or similar. What I would like to know, is this the way of some non's coping mechanism, the only way to deal with the horror that is happening to them and if months down the line are they still of the same opinion?

Hi Sadly,

To answer your question and the answer is similar to SummerStorm is detaching and we can also learn to depersonalize the behaviors by learning about the disorder with clinical information, we can become indifferent to the behaviors.

What sort of a legacy would that be, how much would they have hated to see what I had become.

I'm sorry to hear about your parents. I think that we learn from our life experiences and we gain wisdom.

[SummerStorm]

Ill or evil, in the end, it just doesn't matter. They just live in some alternate universe where normal rules of human behavior just don't apply to them. And it is up to you to decide if you want to put up with this. I think they have rare moments of clarity where they do realize that what they do is screwed up. Like when after months and months of behaving like throwing me out of her life with a 3 sentence text was normal, my ex finally told me "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to lead you on" And that's what makes it tough - these rare moment when you think he/she gets it. But then, it goes back to the behavior that you can't and don't want to accept.

Yes, those moments of clarity hurt the worst. Mine once said to me, "I act in a socially inappropriate manner, and I sometimes forget that it hurts people."

[Learning Fast]

Ill or evil?  I struggle with that on a regular basis.  Sometimes the behaviors are so outrageous that I'm convinced there is more there than just an illness and could be both.  I think it is more of a continuum and varies from one BPD to the next.

SS,

Indeed.  The moments of clarity are too few and too far between.  I heard "I realize that I'm overly sensitive", "I feel so vulnerable at times" and "I do know that I'm responsible for how I feel about myself" a number of times.  Each time I tried to expand the conversation to delve further into these ruminations but the clarity disappeared as quickly as it had appeared.

I,

I had an identical experience as I was blindsided and dispatched with a three sentence text about a year ago. Upon reconnecting I asked her directly about her method of "discard".  She looked straight at me without emotion and said "What's wrong with that?  It was perfectly within my right to do so".  This from a woman with a law degree from a top five law school.  Good grief.