Either she gets to comes with me or I have to find a new job...

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I know if I was in your situation with my fiance and she said to get out I would be out like a shot. It might be a good idea if you fancy a night of peace.

[popeye6031]

I know if I was in your situation with my fiance and she said to get out I would be out like a shot. It might be a good idea if you fancy a night of peace.

[allibaba]

I'd rather leave than have to deal with what will be comeing when she gets home. I don't and have never handled those confruntations very well. By that I mean i sit there and take it, nod my head and agree to what ever and say what needs to be said to end the escaltion sooner. They are hours upon hours no though. Truly exhausting.

Cipher, This (I think) is what has gotten you so far down the road with your wife.  I certainly saw this in my interactions with my husband and in my own behavior.  I was so scared of the confrontation that I would literally DO ANYTHING to avoid it.  Because of my husband's disease, there would never be any peace.  Above you have referred to 2 options:  1.) running away, 2.) sit there and take it and say whatever needs to be said to end the conflict.  There is a 3rd option.  You are strong.  You can do this.  The 3rd option is to speak the truth, be loving and not allow her to drag you into a long drawn out discussion where you are forced to say what she wants you to (this is abuse).  If you run away from her without having the conflict in person - IT WILL NOT CHANGE THE BEHAVIOR.  Now, if you say NO and she puts you into an abusive situation then I am very supportive of walking away.

This will be like no other arguement before. And we have had ones that last for 20 plus hours. Still if it comes down to it and its fight or flight I will be gone. I am still going to pack a contingensy bag.

So tempted if she says to get out to do just that. I don't want to push for this anymore.

Even if running away avoids the conflict, now you won't have the opportunity to grow and change. 

Can I ask you - WHAT IS THE WORST THING THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN?

You are in control of you.  If the worst is a 20 hr fight, well you have the power to walk out of it.

If the worst is her calling the cops and telling them that you hit her.  Prepare for it.  Leave before there is the conflict.

Run through the worst case scenarios in your head/ on this board.  Tell us.  Maybe we can help defuse the fear.  This is about a silly little work trip.  This is about your wife's insecurities and her wanting to control you to feel better.

[Grey Kitty]

You are in control of you.  If the worst is a 20 hr fight, well you have the power to walk out of it.

And I'd add to that staying in a fight like that is bad for you--You get all sorts of traumatic emotional abuse. It is also bad for her--she is using you to avoid dealing with her own issues, and this will just get worse for her too.

Hang in there. It isn't easy, but it *IS* worth it.

[Cipher13]

So right. Run away is not going to help me with my own behavior and I will never be able to stand my ground when I deserve to.  Ok I will face it and put my 2cents in when I need to and have an exit ready to temp leave to calm down. If it escalates to even assumed violence then I leave sooner.

We are scheduled for a joint counselor session. She had me cancel earlier today. So I did. Then was all mad because she was able to get out early to go. So I get it back and now she said she won't go... .This is the stuff I am sick of.

My fears what I fear. I can actually get sick to my stomache with stress and anxiety listening to the arguement. I just don't want to or should have to have it over a simple 5 day trip. For crying out loud people do this all the time.

[allibaba]

So right. Run away is not going to help me with my own behavior and I will never be able to stand my ground when I deserve to.  Ok I will face it and put my 2cents in when I need to and have an exit ready to temp leave to calm down. If it escalates to even assumed violence then I leave sooner.

GOOD PLAN!

We are scheduled for a joint counselor session. She had me cancel earlier today. So I did. Then was all mad because she was able to get out early to go. So I get it back and now she said she won't go... .This is the stuff I am sick of.

This is stuff that you are understandably sick of.  The good news is that once you start down this path, you can nip these behaviors too.  I absolutely refuse to cancel and then re-book stuff for my husband any more.  If he demands that I do something, then I think about what I want.  Do I really want to go to that session?  NO, ok then cancel.  If I do, then I'll tell him... .I understand that you don't want to come so I am going without you.  No cancel, rebook, cancel, rebook cycle!  What do you want to do?

My fears what I fear. I can actually get sick to my stomache with stress and anxiety listening to the arguement. I just don't want to or should have to have it over a simple 5 day trip. For crying out loud people do this all the time.

This is something that all of us understand.  We have all been in your shoes and we find ourselves in that position every day.  We have all been sick with worry about our BPD going nutty and making life difficult.  My husband has a great saying "Courage is not the absence of fear.  Its feeling the fear and doing what you need to do anyway."  You are not weak because you are afraid.  Being afraid is normal and its human.  Cipher I'm over here sending all the prayers and good vibes that I can muster.

Allibaba

[Cipher13]

 

Thank you so much. I am about to head home. I will let you know what happens.

[Surnia]

Yes, thinking about you. Sending you solid ground under your feet.

As for the job and her threats: Perhaps you can be proactive and speak with a trustworth superior and tell him in short about your situation and your fears that she will interfere?

[Cipher13]

I want to tell you how the counseling went last night. Bad. In a nutshell she ended the relationship right in front of her. Before we got there (the drive is about 1hour 15mins) she was already yelling and screaming at me. When she got home she wasn’t ready for the calm cool not taking any crap me. It set her off. The dogs were cowering. I kept my cool. She said I need to quit or not go to the trip. She then said she would write the resignation letter herself and hoped I would get fired. It got heated enough then that I said then I am going to go by myself right now. I got the threat of if you leave don’t come back. Blocked me from getting in the car. I didn’t push the matter and remained calm and went back inside. I convinced her to go with me. Half way there (screaming all the way practically) she said turn around. I said then call and cancel and I will. I turned around she didn’t call and I turned around again and we went to the apt. She said she wasn’t going in and if I left the keys in the car she would leave me there. Should have seen if she actually would but I took the keys and we went in. 

The counselor was not ready to see Jodie like that. Then on the way home after about 20 mins of yelling at me and saying she wished I would die on the way to training trip I snapped. I said calm down or I am not going to talk to you. She began to yell louder. She began to scream at the top of her lungs. She shook in her seat and through the worst 2 year old tantrum with the worst expletives I have ever heard. She must of said “Talk to me” “Answer me”  Over and over about 1000 times. She then began crying and screaming an whaling. I have never ever seen a grown person do that. I held my gaze on the road for almost a full hour without responding.  I ignored all of it. Surprisingly enough it was easy once I stuck to it. Even when she threatened to have the Police waiting for us when we got home. I knew that was a hail mary attempt at getting me to respond. Finally she did run out of gas and I responded calmly. She then got angry and I shut down.

We got home and she said over and over and over she can’t do this and to just leave. She was broken at that point and completely exhausted. She was actually using honest words and not yelling or name calling by this point.  Do that was my night. I think we are moving on but when she wakes up she might be all back to things are not ok but we are not splitting up.  In all of that I am sure I mentioned I will ask to change the dates. However also she said nothing will change anyway even if she goes. So I don’t know what to make of that.

[popeye6031]

Well done on getting through that night.  You held your calm very well.  Don't think I could have.  So, as it ended she wanted you to move out?  As you were saying, things may change this morning.  Though I do not think that things will change for your stress levels if you stay together.

[Cipher13]

Oh no I do not thing my stress will change until I do leave. If she is honestly ready to call it quits as it seemed clear last night I will let her go. I say I will see what the morning brings because just at the end of the night she still kept insiting that I can't go on this trip if we are like this. To me that means she isn't final on me leaving the house then.  And more stress for not knowing.

[123Phoebe]

Cipher, please try to get out of her head and get your own focus clear and straightened away.  Until you do this, things will be up and down and round and round and topsy turvy.

Someone needs to be the adult, someone needs to step out of the madness and take the emotional lead.

What do you want to do?

[Waddams]

Even when she threatened to have the Police waiting for us when we got home.

Take this seriously.  Most guys in this situation don't until it's too late.  If you weren't recording her tantrum, please have something ready for the next one.  She keeps escalating her behavior to worse and worse based on the new you she's seeing.  She's trying to regain control.  At some point, there's a very real risk she'll call and make false accusations.  It's a way to get something real to she can use to hang over your head.  It's also very hard to defend against.  Having the recordings of her rantings, and you not responding, can be key to convincing one of the boys in blue that you didn't do what she accuses of and saving yourself a trip to the slammer.

Your well being and future is at stake.  You need to put yourself first, and if she continues escalating like this, I'd strongly advise you find some other place to be.

[Cipher13]

I know she pulls me into her head and I don't like it in there.

What do I want to do? I want to find peace. I want nothing more than to find peace and blance. I am not looking for perfection by any means when I am saying I want to find peace.

In my mind I have made the decission to leave this relationship. Some of my actions and words are starting to show this I think. I can't find the strength yet ro follow trough. I know in my head it is the right thing to do. Its right for both of us. I even heard her say something like that to.  

[Cipher13]

At some point, there's a very real risk she'll call and make false accusations.

As I read this the thought came into my mind of the other morning when she sent a text that she bumped he face on the new dresser becasue she didn't turn the light on.  She has a mark from that. Now I am scared. I would have tried to record that if I wasn't driving the car while it was going on.

[Waddams]

As I read this the thought came into my mind of the other morning when she sent a text that she bumped he face on the new dresser becasue she didn't turn the light on.  She has a mark from that. Now I am scared. I would have tried to record that if I wasn't driving the car while it was going on.

Find a way to keep the text.  Take a picture of it or something. 

I have seen some police departments are better about this sort of thing then others.  It might be good for you to stop by the local precinct office and just ask to talk to an officer that might be around.  Explain your issue, concerns about what might happen, and ask for advice how to stay out of trouble.  The first thing they'll tell you is to not be around her, but they might have some other pointers for you too.

I once pulled the car over during a rant, into a parking lot of some store, turned the car off, grabbed the keys, got out, and walked into the store.  Told her I wasn't going to stay in the car and let her rage at me like that.  Also told her I wasn't going to drive off and leave her, and when she could ride without treating me like that, we'd continue driving.

[allibaba]

Cipher,

I think that you did great last night.  If you want to get your relationship back on track this is the first step.  If you want to become healthier and end the relationship then this is the first step!

Cipher, please try to get out of her head and get your own focus clear and straightened away.  Until you do this, things will be up and down and round and round and topsy turvy.

Someone needs to be the adult, someone needs to step out of the madness and take the emotional lead.

What do you want to do?

Phoebe is right - what do you want?  Figure it out and then do it.

And yes, I'm glad that Waddams is pointing out to be careful.  At this point, its definitely possible that she'll do whatever it takes to get control of you again.  And if she thinks she is losing you... .then she'll throw you to the wolves.  But please, please prepare so that you don't have to live in fear. 

******

One piece of advise that I got (which I really appreciated) is go to the police station (or call) and speak to someone in a non-emergency situation (before something bad happens) and tell them what you are dealing with. 

*  Explain that you do not want to make a complaint, you want to use the police as a valuable resource to avoid something bad happening.  Explain that your wife suffers from undiagnosed mental illness and that you are taking action under the advise of a therapist to improve your entire domestic situation. 

*  Make sure when you go that you are very calm and well spoken. 

*  Explain that in the past that she has made threats to call the police to control you even though you have never laid a hand on her and that you hear stories of false accusations. 

*  Explain that you are not ending your relationship and that you are only speaking to them because:

1. you want to understand the law in your area and

2. you know that they have lots of good experience with domestic violence/ abuse and their experience may help you better navigate this situation. 

By doing this you gain the following: 

1. understanding of the local law

2. someone on the police force that has already heard your story and fears and can help you to understand the reality of your situation. 

3. A friend on the police (if something does go wrong). 

I have spoken to the police a couple of times.  At one point when things were really bad back in July, one of the local police gave me his work cellphone number (to ask for advice only).  He asked that I always call dispatch in an emergency or if I needed something formally documented.  I live in a small town and now without anything going on record, the police here know that if I call and say HELP that I really mean it.

By doing the above, you can calm your fears and put yourself in a better position to real with reality. 

Keep identifying your fears and dealing with them!  We're all proud of you.

[allibaba]

I have seen some police departments are better about this sort of thing then others.  It might be good for you to stop by the local precinct office and just ask to talk to an officer that might be around.  Explain your issue, concerns about what might happen, and ask for advice how to stay out of trouble.  The first thing they'll tell you is to not be around her, but they might have some other pointers for you too.

Hi Waddams!  Glad that we are on the same page. 

[Cipher13]

I never really gave the police matter any real thought. Is that some what common? I don't have the text saved unfortunatley. However if you read anything that is still on there you clearly see who is the calm cool and collected one. 

Does having a close relative in the police force help at all. My brother is cheif of police for a small town that isn't near me but can that help? Or is that a conflict of interest?  Also wanted to ask about T question. When we were in the appt last night wife brought up an issue that I had spoke to the T prior in a separate personal session. T made no mention that she had heard it before from me. I thought nothing of it until my wife says "see you never brought that up before".  Would that fall under the confdentiallity agreement even between spouces?

Have to say you have me a little freaked about the police issue. But knowldge is power. Thank you. Last night was hard to listen to but it felt right. especially the silence in the car. Horible noises to listen to but I was able to block it out somehow.

[Waddams]

I never really gave the police matter any real thought. Is that some what common?

There are scores of guys on this site that have been arrested and had to defend themselves against false abuse, battery, and assault claims.

In my case, she went berserk one night after we were in bed.  It had started with stopping by a local watering hole for a snack and a drink.  She got a bit intoxicated, and started into one of her downward spirals that always ended up with ranting at me.  It escalated in the car, she started poking and pushing me while I was driving.  Went on and off once we were home.  Eventually we went to bed.

She woke me up by pushing me, poking at me in the shoulder (as in "you ass!" while poking me), and ranting even more.  Got really really bad, worst it had been to that point.  I got up and went to spare bedroom, closed the door.  She tried to break it down to get at me.  I braced it with my body for a while.  She quit, I thought things were going to finally peter out after a while, so laid down on spare bed.  A few minutes later she busted in the door and came in screaming, and physically battering me.  Lots of pushing, shoving, grabbing, etc.  I tried to get out and she got a hold of my arm and got kind of a bear hug on it, screaming, etc.

Now, I've got torn ligaments in wrist that she had a hold off.  She was hurting me.  I kept yelling "let go, you're hurting me!" and she kept saying "___ you! i'm not letting go!" And at this point to say I was in kind of a mental state of "Oh $h1t! Danger will robsinson!" is an understatement.  After all, she'd just broken in a locked door.  I got my torn ligaments in martial arts training mishaps, and believe me, I know how to get someone to let go of just about any hold on me if it comes down to it.

I didn't even really think, it's just the level of stress I was under from her attack hit a trigger level, and I have to say I kind of hit "fight or flight" on an instinctual level.  Out popped a technique that really only works when an attacker insists on hanging on.  She did.  It worked.  The only way to escape the pain once it locks down is dive to the ground.  It's what the technique does.  It forces AND motivates an attacker to go to the ground.  She dove rather quickly, and then proceeded to keep screaming even more hysterically. 

I went back in spare room, braced door shut again, called cops.  After their questioning, because she had a small bruise on her wrist where the technique locked up, I got arrested.  She admitted what she had basically chased me from one room to another, broken in the door, etc.  Didn't matter.

I ended up doing a 24 week DV class, and the charge got dropped after completion.  Got to go meet with a probation officer, pay a bunch of costs for the probation, DV class, etc.  Fun times.  My L did get the prosecutor to allow me to expunge my record after completion of the program.

I'll never forget how she twisted all the events to the cops, made herself into the poor victim, etc.  And later on, she would gloat and mock about the situation and how she really had me in her control because one phone call and I was off to jail again on a probbie violation.  I had to ride things out with her until I was done w/ the class and had the case totally adjudicated.  Was almost a year of putting up with that crap.  As soon as it was all done, I broke up w/ her and threw her out of my house.

[allibaba]

Does having a close relative in the police force help at all. My brother is cheif of police for a small town that isn't near me but can that help? Or is that a conflict of interest? 

Hi Cipher,

No, you're better off to seek help/ advise from police officers that you don't know.  I know someone who was actually charged with a crime by prosecution (false allegations) because their brother was a police officer and the brother kept trying to explain that the charge was bogus.  They ended up dealing with almost 2 yrs of legal bs because the prosecution didn't want to be seen to be favoring a police officer's brother. 

The point of getting help/ advise is more about preparing yourself than anything.  The police have seen it all and generally they are pretty good at what they do.  You have to be careful about what you say to them as well.  If I accidentally told them that my husband had threatened to "cave my face in" which happened in May, then in my area they would be obligated to haul my husband to jail and they put in place an order where he would not be able to have contact with me or my son for 2 yrs.  The police take threats very seriously.  The place to be careful with police and the thing that I never understood is that police don't worry about the impact of charging someone and they don't need to be "sure" or "fair."  They leave it up to the legal system to figure that out.  They don't take into account the fact that the legal system often destroys people while those people are trying to prove their innocence.

Waddams thanks for the reminder of what can happen.

Knowledge is power. 

Last night was hard to listen to but it felt right. especially the silence in the car. Horible noises to listen to but I was able to block it out somehow.

Cipher what you have hear is the first little bit of standing up for yourself.  Congratulations.  It felt right because it was right.

[Cipher13]

WOW!

She was able to get out of her work requirements and now can attend this trip.  I had said if she can change her schedule then fine but I can't change mine.

At this point there might end up being another situation that cuases her to want me to leave prior to going. Like the last time. She wasn't going then she was going thern she wasn't going. The night before she decided to go. Then it was unpleasant when she was there. I have a lot of new found confidence in myself.

Its the begining of a new me. Thanks for the info and the support everyone.

[Waddams]

You're an adult.  Adults are allowed to change their minds.  You are entitled to tell her given the level conflict and stress that you need some time away to recharge.  Tell her you don't want her to go.  This can be done in a way that reinforces that it doesn't mean you are abandoning her.  You are taking care of yourself, and coming back.  

She's going to rant and rage again.  Be prepared.  But also remember she's doing this because she's never had to learn how to regulate her emotions before.  She'll have to learn that now, which is good for you and her.

[allibaba]

You're an adult.  Adults are allowed to change their minds.  You are entitled to tell her given the level conflict and stress that you need some time away to recharge.  Tell her you don't want her to go.  This can be done in a way that reinforces that it doesn't mean you are abandoning her.  You are taking care of yourself, and coming back.  

I don't agree here.  My husband is the yo-yo in our relationship - not me (anymore).  If I tell him, you can't come unless you change your work schedule... .and he goes and changes his work schedule... .then it makes me seem kind of nuts if I turn around and then tell him... ."never mind.  I know that you changed your work schedule, but now I have decided you can't come anyway." 

Not exactly the way to develop trust in a fragile relationship or seem trustworthy.  True you are an adult and you can change your mind and I agree that she's put you through a ridiculous amount of stress over this... .but the reality is that our spouses are more sensitive than normal folks and need to be treated with love and care.  If you didn't want her to come in the first place (the truth) then you should have told her up front that it was a work trip and she couldn't come.  As my husband says "you make your bed hard, you lay hard."   

Just my 2 cents.  Its just an opinion but if I was your wife and you changed your mind now, I would be livid and it wouldn't be unreasonable.  Its just my opinion and I may be wrong but wanted to say my piece.

[Cipher13]

Now I get "If you don't want me to go I won't go." Happend last time to.  Before she said that I had made my mind up that I said she can go if she can changer her schedule. In that I was not going to change my stand firm behavior to outbursts and rages. I'm not taking crap and falling for it.

This another set up. I will tell her that its her call. I said she can go. She made the arangements to change her schedule. If she chooses not to go then its her call to make.

[allibaba]

This another set up. I will tell her that its her call. I said she can go. She made the arangements to change her schedule. If she chooses not to go then its her call to make.

I'm so excited.  Its a new Cipher!  Being responsible for yourself and not her.  YAY!   

[Cipher13]

   

Yes thank you. I do not feel the say kind of stress today. I am not afraid of the outcomes anymore.

[allibaba]

 

Yes thank you. I do not feel the say kind of stress today. I am not afraid of the outcomes anymore.

It will come in waves.  Some days you will be really strong and some days you will be totally terrified.  Just remember my husband's favorite saying "Courage is not the absence of fear.  its feeling the fear and doing what you have to do anyway!" 

I love your tone.  Its so strong compared to yesterday at the same time.

Allibaba

[Waddams]

I don't agree here.  My husband is the yo-yo in our relationship - not me (anymore).  If I tell him, you can't come unless you change your work schedule... .and he goes and changes his work schedule... .then it makes me seem kind of nuts if I turn around and then tell him... ."never mind.  I know that you changed your work schedule, but now I have decided you can't come anyway."

Alibaba - I totally understand what you're saying.  I guess my feelings on it is if the BPD can get it together and not be a distraction from what is required work wise, then all is well.

On the other hand, I know I had times when I was dealing with the same craziness that I had to find a way to put my foot down and change what I said because when she was dysregulated, it changed the equation for me.  Once I had the strength to do it, I wasn't willing to expose myself to her rantings and rages.  I did change my mind and change what I said I would do several times because if I hadn't, I'd have been dealing with a worse situation down the road. 

I just believe these situations are fluid and to get through them best, we have be able to put ourselves first, and if our needs in a specific situation change, then so be it.

In this case, if Cipher can be effective at his work tasks with her along, great.  If he can't, I don't see a problem with the change in position.  After all, she's just had a major outburst and things have escalated recently.  I, personally, wouldn't see a problem with the position that in light of the recent escalated issues, it changes the situation and therefore changes certain decisions.

Just my humble opinion.  I think all view points given so far are good ones!

[Surnia]

 

Yes thank you. I do not feel the say kind of stress today. I am not afraid of the outcomes anymore.

This is so great! 

Keep going with this new feeling.

[Surnia]

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