R/S advice, BPD style

[In_n_Out]

Earlier in the day I suggested a day trip for tomorrow and she suggested the city - one that we had gone to before that is a couple of hours away.  I was surprised that she agreed to go (somewhat).  So far, so good.  Except:

We just spent a couple of hours together.  We met at the park and walked.  Held hands a little and talked about previous visits to the same location.  I had sent an email to her this morning.  A very validating email but one that stressed that she doesn't have to make immediate decisions, including one with/about me and the one about my replacement and that I'm very afraid to see her stuck in something that she will want to but can't as easily run from.  She said that she read it and I was waiting for her to say that it's not my business (though I'm in the middle of all this so it is) but instead she said that she's tired (emotionally, mentally) and that it is sound advice and that I'm a very good writer (subject change attempt).  She said that Sunday she is doing some Easter egg thing with him (replacement) and his mom; that it had been planned for some time.  I asked how she handles keeping up the act after all of this time that we've spent together and she said that it was for her to worry about and not me.  That news, though not unexpected, dampered this visit for me this time.

We drove together to her old campus and we walked, holding hands, and the "impending doom" starting to creep in to the conversation.  Things like "I know what is coming and that nothing I say or do will alter that".  I joked that I'd pay her to be my pretend gf like Richard Gere did for Julia Roberts in "Pretty Woman"... . "yeah, I'll treat you to dinner or outings and you just pretend like we're a happy couple and when you need to do your thing, you go do it and I'll do the same".  I don't think that she was to keen on the idea.

We walked to the chapel that she had reserved for our wedding that we were to have.  We had gone to it twice recently and it had been locked but this time, the door was unlocked and we walked in to find a wedding rehearsal taking place.  We both became very emotional and quickly left.  Through tears we both said "what are we doing?".  She said that there was a reason that the doors were locked twice before and that's what we get for insisting on tempting fate.  

I drove her back to my car and we talked about doing movies together tonight with me cooking one of our old favorites but when I got to her car, the mood had soured and she had saddened.  She said that she thought it best to go home and pamper herself for the night and that tomorrow we will get up and go on a road trip with happy dance music playing and we will only think of the day and not what lays ahead.  I was too sad by this point to be very optimistic and the "doom" message came out again.  I mentioned my email and my concerns and she was crying.  I know that in the rational side of her mind, she knows that I'm right.  He will get frustrated with her and she will want to run away but she will be really stuck this time.  She knows that is going to happen, I can read it in her face yet because she can't make sound decisions due to all of the swirling emotions, all that she can think about is how hard it would be to tell her parents that she's left him to go back to me.  That is just an impossible task for her and though as much as she *wants* to do just that, she won't because she thinks that she can't.  It would cause too much hurt for her because she feels that her parents would abandon her if she made that decision.  I really, really believe that is exactly what is going on in her head.  

GOD, if somebody has some suggestions on how to stop that train wreck from happening, I will certainly take your ideas in to consideration.  I know though that the consensus will be that I just have to sit back and let it happen; let it work itself out and then who knows what may happen in the future.  The thought of that just puts a pit in my stomach and I feel the hurt already creeping up.  The crushed feeling.  The feeling that half of my soul is about to walk away in to something with someone that it knows it shouldn't go to but feels that it must... .

[goldylamont]

In-n-Out, i am completely out of my r/s with my ex so i am coming from that perspective. this is the Undecided Board so you will get both though. Here are my thoughts on your points above:

1. Lots of peer pressure to do what others feel she should do and this happens every time with her overbearing parents and she relents and does not what she feels is best for her but what they expect of her because she feels that she is broken and doesn't know what is best for her and;

except she never *does* what others feel that she should do--like fulfill her promises to marry you, or um, the other guy, after leading them to believe this is what she wanted... . perhaps more times than you are aware of. she is blaming her parents for her premarital insecurities and it sounds unfair to me. if she treats her family like this, expect her to treat you the same, who she knows less.

making you feel special, telling you that you understand her better than anyone in the world, vocabulary of soulmate -- all tools that get you do behave how she wants you to behave now. all this will stop when she's done with this phase of her emotions though. she said all the same stuff with the other guy she now doesn't want to marry. i'm not saying you aren't wonderful and that you aren't special--you *are*. but her actions show that you aren't as special to her as her words would lead you to believe. i say don't believe the words and only trust the actions by looking at them long term.

2. She has a semi-clean slate with him but he has begun to feel frustration and has invalidated her emotions so this is becoming less of an issue.  I know that she knows that the inevitable will happen again and I've validated her anxiety and confusion and asked her what would she do if she found herself suddenly married to this guy, stuck in his house and in a legally binding contract.  What will she do if she feels like she needs to run away again?

you are the exciting guy right now since she can devalue him to you and you are willing to listen and validate this for her. if you two were to start the process of taking vows then you will take on the role he is in now, and she will do the same thing and devalue you to another man she is spending time with whilst making him believe he is her new "soulmate".

i can't recall your whole story, but haven't you already been through the cycle of being the one she was going to marry and then got dropped? it will happen again as you now know that she has done this twice since you've known her. once to you, then to this guy... . i say don't be around for round 3

3. Self-pressure.  Shes' 43, never married, no kids and no career.  She feels that her time is passing and that if not now, nobody will want to marry her and that she's incapable of fixing her credit, paying off debt (student loans and an unemployment snafu) and getting material things on her own accord.  IOW, she feels that she has to rely on someone else to do the things that she could and should be doing for herself.

so, if you are legally bound to her through marriage, if the relationship ends she'll get a lot of your money. not that money is her motivation, just stating the facts. if she can't take care of herself financially and you take on this role, this is just the dynamic.

What do I think *could* happen?  I think that with the right positive reinforcement, she could and would resume therapy and DBT's (she's already started taking these steps but she will need some hand-holding to stay committed to it) and I know that she can devote herself to the r/s.  We lived together for 3 years and she only left twice; once to go to the beach for the weekend without me because she was dysregulated and the 2nd time was when she left the r/s "for good", slamming the door behind her.  But now, here we are.

Again, thanks for your input - keep it coming, I need the same validation that I've been giving to her emotions. 

most of the story i hear from people who have recycled say that once back together with their ex, the relationship was even shorter and more abusive. just extrapolating from this, i think what could happen is -- instead of you living together for 3 years it would be only 1 this time. there would be more frequent leaving. you may possibly take the financial brunt of her therapy/living expenses and be left with this debt when she leaves.

^^ I'm just showing some other possibilities I see as likely, although I know it may be hard to hear. I hope you know the time i took to think about all this helps me too in some way and i hope it helps you whether you would take this advice or not. i would respect it either way. best of luck to you!

[In_n_Out]

I hear ya and yes, I know deep down inside that you are absolutely right.  We were engaged but when things had gotten financially tough for us (after she quit yet another job), I said out of frustration that she should take back the ring for the time being because the payments were too much.  This was my response to her quitting her job and it was a rotten thing to say.  She took it to heart and she alone went and returned the ring.  We lived together for another year after that in a confused state of "are we engaged or just bf/gf now or are we just roommates?". 

To continue tonights saga, I was at the gym and she sent a text saying that she fell, but she was ok.  I probed for more info and she said that she fell in to the bathtub.  So, I rush over there and sure enough, she was changing a bulb in the bathroom vanity and fell back getting down off the counter and fell backwards in to the tub.  Her forearm is bruised, she bumped her head and twisted her ankle.  I pampered her, cleaned up the mess, fixed her dinner and made her comfortable on the sofa.  She asked me to sit with her.  Long story short, we began to kiss passionately.  It ended there but probably could of gone on further.  All awhile, it was "my heart is torn... . I'm so confused... . I'm so (emotionally) tired from it all". 

So really, tomorrow we'll have a wonderful day and who knows what will happen tomorrow night.  Might as well... . right... . because come Sunday, she has a date with my replacement.  And then next Monday it all begins anew, or it doesn't.  I guess it depends on what happens Sunday and where her heart is then.  Maybe she devalues him and leaves for good (ha!) or maybe we just keep triangulating.  It's not healthy but I'm literally just taking it one day at a time.  There is no forseeable future.

[cosmonaut]

This is a very heartfelt and fascinating series of posts, In_n_Out.  You're obviously being very sincere and it's clear that you care deeply about your ex.

I am a bit worried, however, that your ex doesn't seem willing to accept responsibility for her disorder.  I see how she recognizes that she has problems, that she's confused, that she knows she is hurting people.  I don't see what she's doing about it, though.  That, to me, is a serious issue.  She still seems to expect everyone else to do all the work and keep walking on eggshells.  I think that it's good that you are validating her, but you are also walking on eggshells - scared to say the "wrong" thing and worried that the explosion  (and abandonment) is finally coming.  Is that how you want to keep living?  It seems you are conflicted about the answer to that question, and I think it's one you should continue to reflect on.

I know you want things to work out with your ex.  Honestly, I am very conflicted about this same issue.  I want to be with my ex, but I also know that things will never work unless she can take ownership and responsibility for her disorder.  No one else but her can fix things, no matter how much I want to do it for her.  I do hope things can work out with your ex, but I think you need to be cautious and sober about that possibility.  I would really advise you to not get involved again unless she is demonstrating concrete progress, and that will begin with her accepting that SHE is the problem - not you or anyone else.  It is her disordered thinking and emotional disregulation that is the root cause.  No one else but her can change that.  I just don't want to see you left high and dry again when she abandons you, because she refuses to face her disorder.  Unfortunately, running is easy and change is very hard.

I hope that you don't take this as an attack.  I'm just being honest.  I know how you feel.  I am in the trenches right there with you.  My heart is torn in pieces about my ex.  Anyway, keep posting.  I am eager to know how things turn out and what you decide.

[maxsterling]

Wow, some very touching and interesting developments.  I really feel for her.   But like cosmonaut said, and what I feel about my own r/s, even though our emotions may be there, we deep down want some kind of evidence things will be different or improve.  The track record for pwBPD is very poor, and I struggle with the same thoughts - how do I feel comfortable that I am different from her numerous previous r/s?  How do I know that I am not part of the same cycle, that she isn't just using me to fill that same void within her?  Not that I think she will ever cheat on me or move on to someone else, but I do wonder if she will ever feel stable, or will she always want something else?  By that I mean a new job, a new place to live, travel to here or there, new car, new clothes... . I'm not sure I can live that way, even if she commits herself to me.  I need to see her commit herself to herself to know something has changed.  That means friends independent of me.  That means a network in the city I live in - right now it feels she is miserable here with the exception of me.  That means a hobby, things she likes to do that do not have to include me.  That means the ability to take care of her own basic needs. 

It sounds like while your ex knows she has issues, I bet she has known for years, and tried this for awhile, then tried that, thinking she is getting somewhere, only to his a roadblock and switch directions.  The net result: the same thing.  She's chasing feelings, not finding herself.  And it probably will be the same thing if you get back together.  it will be fine for a few months until she realizes she is still unhappy.  And then she will search.  My brother is married to a pwBPD, and that's been the same story for a decade.  She realizes she is unhappy every few months, and then looks for the next thing to make her feel energized.  And when that wears off, she's back to looking again. meanwhile, my brother is exhausted from the instability, and financially broke.    Right now, your ex is getting close to you because you are the new thing - validating her feelings of not wanting to be with your "replacement".

I think the only way to have a r/s with her right now would be to remove all expectations and take things for what they are.  Accept she has BPD and always will, will always have these behaviors, and nothing you can ever do will change that.  Accept that she probably will recycle you, probably be back-and-forth at times.  Accept that this could go south at any time and be okay with that.  Accept that she probably will never be stable.  The more you can let go of expectations, the longer you can live in her world, and the happier you will be when you are in her world. 

[In_n_Out]

I think the only way to have a r/s with her right now would be to remove all expectations and take things for what they are.  Accept she has BPD and always will, will always have these behaviors, and nothing you can ever do will change that.  Accept that she probably will recycle you, probably be back-and-forth at times.  Accept that this could go south at any time and be okay with that.  Accept that she probably will never be stable.  The more you can let go of expectations, the longer you can live in her world, and the happier you will be when you are in her world.

Yes, this is the key right here.  It is a day by day, moment by moment thing.  I have no expectations that we will ever be a couple again as we were before.  Not unless or until she takes positive steps to stop the merry-go-round and make the changes she needs to make.

She just left.  We spent the day together; a two hour drive each way to a cute little town that has lots of shops.  It was a wonderful time; both car rides were very nice with hand holding on the way and then her head on my shoulder most of the way home.  We laughed and talked and when we did have one "hiccup", where *I* started to get withdrawn over something, *she* perked me back up with a funny story and I was right back on track.  I commented to her then "wow, that was a great recovery hun, you pulled me right back. That never happened that fast like that before, great job!".  She later commented on the way home about how it seems now we can get over the bumps much more quickly and easier than before, where it would of ruined the rest of the day.

She had fallen the last night, I may of written about it.  Well, after the long car ride, her neck and body began to tighten up so I offered a body rub.  She agreed and though there was no sex, it sure was as close to foreplay as you can get.  She dressed and left just a bit ago.

But, the kicker is, Sunday she's spending the day with my replacement doing Easter crap.  It's with him and his mom, whom she says "adores me and he has such a wonderful family".  I made the comment that it's too bad she can't just date his mom.  That could of sparked something but she brushed it off.  We did talk briefly about "him".  She mumbled and I asked her to speak up... . she said that he doesn't do things that she likes like I do.  He doesn't like the same music, he doesn't do x, y and z like I do.  I didn't dig any deeper.  I didn't want to hear it even though it was something in my favor.  I did say that I know that she feels "stuck" in her current situation and she's going to want to "explore" what will happen with that and that she's going to lose a good man in the process.  She stopped me and we quickly changed the subject.  She would occasionally throw out references however to things like "will you always be my best friend, even if ... . " and other indications that she'll be pulling away again.  I just have to take it day by day and not expect anything more at this point.

We did talk about BPD just before we got home.  I don't recall how we got in to that conversation but I said (this from one of my books) that she is emotionally vulnerable meaning that a trigger such as something she sees, hears, smells, experiences can cause her to become emotionally dysregulated and when that happens, the emotion that is trigger spikes sharply and intensely.  She asked if I thought that she was bipolar and I said "no" because a pwBipolar would have that spiked emotion for days, weeks or months even but in her case, she can be settled within 20 or 30 minutes.  She said "so that's why people feel like they have to 'catch up' to my emotions because I will return to 'normal' just like that".  Yes, that is part of it I said.  She said "and the other person gets frustrated because my emotions spike like that and then the next thing they know, I'm over it".  Yes, true.  It can be very frustrating for those that don't know you or understand that about you.  She then got a serious look in her eyes and said "am I mentally ill?".  I reassured her that she is not.  "Am I a full blown BPD?".  That's not for me to diagnose but I would say that you clearly have 2 or 3 traits (I lied.  From what I can tell, she has 7 or 8 of them).  We talked about the 9 traits and went over some of them.  It was actually a very good talk.  I mentioned DBT therapy and asked her if she thought that would be something beneficial for her.  "well yeah, I need to resume that and I promise I'm checking to see if I can qualify for the insurance that would cover most of that". 

So who knows.  I'm not sad tonight even though for the first time in a couple of weeks I probably won't see her for a day or two *and* she is planning to be with my replacement.  I could stew over it; *if* they had broken up as she said they did, why is she letting him get in to the push/pull recycle dance?  No need to ask her that, I know the answer and there's nothing that I can say or do that would prevent that.  I'll just focus on me and if/when she comes around again, I'll enjoy my time with her but I will need to start to pull away emotionally because at some point, I will hurt again - and even more intensely this time, especially if she does go for good to "explore" what he has to offer.  Secretly though, I'm hoping that thoughts of our wonderful days together the past couple of weeks screws up her interactions with him so badly that she splits away from him.  Wishful thinking, no doubt.

[goldylamont]

Secretly though, I'm hoping that thoughts of our wonderful days together the past couple of weeks screws up her interactions with him so badly that she splits away from him.  Wishful thinking, no doubt.

In_n_Out this concerns me. Taking this position you are actively taking part in the emotional abuse of her fiance. Once I realized how my ex would use men and pit them against each other like this, her niceness, flirting, 'friendship' were all revealed for what they were--a tool for her to use me at her whim. And often times use me as a way to hurt someone else who was probably a really good person. Sure, she's devaluing the hell out of this guy now to you, and this gives you a boost to the ego. And this is what she does--to *everyone* judging her past, no? She devalues one man to validate the vanity of another... . and it works.

Will she stop doing this? Why would she ever stop and truly seek help when it's working for her?

Pitting you two against each other is what she's doing. Talks of therapy and growth is only what she's saying.

Right now, you are validating her, and being dishonest to her about her being mentally ill. And you are doing this to try and get what you want out of the situation. What you want is not bad at all, but... .

BUT do you realize that she's playing the same game with you, just that she's better at it? She's definitely validating your ego by making you feel like you are more attractive and more meaningful in her life than this other man. She knows this is what you want to hear, just like you know she wants to hear that she's great and that her illness isn't as bad as it really is. So you tell her untruths to try and get her back and she tells you untruths to stroke your ego to keep you where she wants until her mood changes a few months down the line.

This is why these relationships can be so toxic--because one day the full truth will come out about both of your motives. And you'll end up telling her how you really feel and that she does have a mental illness. And she'll tell you in one way or another that it doesn't matter because she wasn't really interested in forever to begin with... . because it's not who she is, regardless of what she wants in the moment.

I'm just looking at this from the outside perspective and i see two people being dishonest with each other and themselves, both trying to live a dream without doing the difficult task of being truthful.

My advice is no longer to leave your ex for good. Reason being I think you've already made your mind up about this and this is OK In-n-Out. However, my advice is--to set your boundaries this time. Know in advance:

** How long you are willing to put up with her seeing another man?

** How long before you become completely clean about how you feel about her illness?

** What will you do if you catch her lying/cheating?

** What specifically do you want from her (and when) in order for *you* to stay around?

If you don't have answers for these questions in advance, then yes the cycle will keep repeating and you will keep taking her back--but each time she will become more emboldened and thus simultaneously more unhappy with the relationship and more sure that she can do anything she wants to you and still be able to get back with you whenever she wants--if this is truly how you feel, she will know and exploit this.

Set boundaries when you go back this time so that there won't be a next time after. And consider how your actions will affect her current fiance(?) and his family and if they deserve it. Both you and he should be on the same team, not competing for something that shape-shifts at will. That is the best advice I can give.

[In_n_Out]

Excellent reply and I appreciate your taking the time to write and post that!

"Lying about her illness".  I'm going in baby steps here.  First it was just mentioning BPD to see what her reaction to it was.  That was a couple of weeks ago.  She identified with it and in her email response she said that it was "suggested by her therapist in 2007 that she *may* have clear signs of it".  The next step was the one taken last night coming home and that is to identify what those traits are and to let her tell me if she thinks that she exhibits those traits.  She did that when we discussed the emotional dysregulation, the self-harming (been a while since she's done that she says), suicide (says she has never been), the sense of abandonment, the push/pull dance routine.  Next will be to continue to urge her to seek help or to urge her to follow through with getting it.  I purchased an ebook for her "Stop Sabotaging: A 31 Day DBT Challenge to Change Your Life" and "loaned" it to her (Kindle).  I messaged her last night about it and she said that she would look in to it today.  She has 7 days to accept the loan so I will know if she's even taken the time to look at it or not.  To me, that will be the first indication of how serious she is of addressing the issue at hand (or not).

The goal setting or self-boundaries that you mention I have already begun to think about a while ago now but yes, this weekend I need to etch those boundaries in stone.  I mean really, this will very likely go on and on with her finally (really) breaking up with my replacement, only to do the recycle dance with him while finding the next guy and all the while I'm on a shoestring trying to hang on getting laced through an eyelet every now and then just so that I feel like I'm a part of the shoe.  Yes, I get that and so yes, I need to set those boundaries for myself.  At some point, it will have to be "friends only" - no "I love you's" or anything hinting at romance but could we really do that?  Could I continue to see her go through guy after guy and what will she do once I finally do meet somebody else?  No, that really wouldn't work unless we both completely detached the emotional feelings which won't happen in the "dance" that we are in now.  So yeah, I need to sit down and think long and hard about how long it is that I want to keep dancing before I not only get off the dance floor but leave the club entirely.

Good post, thanks for your thoughts!

[Pecator]

Wow, that was and incredibly long read…Don't know why I stuck with it, but I am glad I did.

Goldy, thanks so much for your words. While aimed at In/out, they were very helpful for me as well.

I/O I can identify so much with what you are going through. Then again there is so much that I can't. Seems to be part of the complexity of BPD.

Being that I just found this place a few days ago, I don't have the words of wisdom that goldy has. However, I have a story that might help you. I know it will help me to tell it.

I am currently in very limited contact with my ex of 3 years. I miss her so much I can hardly go out in public without seeing something that reminds me how "great" we were together. I am emotionally aware, work in a helping profession, love to dance and have great fun, have no kids and grew to love her two boys deeply. "I can't believe I found the whole package," was her mantra.

I am learning what "incredibly loaded relationship bond" means.

My ex is very high functioning. Very stable in so many ways. Actually, in every way…except relationships and emotions. To her credit she has developed an ability to build the walls she needs to succeed without dealing with what scares her most. She has even been seeing the same therapist for almost ten years. However, her T has no clue of her history of being sexually abused nor that she is a product of her mom's affair that has been denied and covered up.

I digress.

I/O I went through what you are going through now. Goldy is right. I wish I could have read his words a year and a half ago.

Summer of 2012 I went through hell that had nothing to with the relationship. My SO stuck with me every step of the way. In Sept. I found out that I was going to be downsized an lose my job. As an immigrant to Canada (from the US) it meant I could lose my status. Suddenly things began to go wonky. A trip we planned for my nieces wedding "didn't make sense financially." She began expressing deep anger over what happened on a dance floor a month earlier. I went alone to the wedding. The whole trip I regretted that she did not get to meet my family on such a grand occasion. Meanwhile, she started going to bars with her single friends.

I was getting emails saying "Love you" "Miss you" and "Can't wait till you get back"

The day I get back, she planned a night out with her friends. I was profoundly surprised and to say the least disappointed. I texted as was accustomed and got no reply until "why do you keep bothering me…give me some space." (something to that effect).

Now, I am actually the least jealous person in the world (a fact that bothered her and she used to accuse me that I didn't care enough about her). So, this seemed strange. I always gave her space and never worried about with whom she spent time.

I am struggling with the details, but she began cutting me out of her life and claiming we were broken up while we never had any conversations surrounding that. My memories become clear on the day we were driving back to her place. I remember the stop light very clearly. She is incredible at creating false narratives, but she has never been able to lie to me. Normally when I picked up on this I let it go. This time I couldn't. I pressed her for what was wrong.

"I met someone"

In a VERY rare expression of sad emotion, she went on to justify herself. "I wasn't intending it. I went out with (friend) cause I needed a break. Just to have a fun night. I was talking to this guy and he asked me out. I just wanted to feel what it was like to be on a normal date again. I never expected that it would be as nice as it was."

Two things:

Again, I have worked hard enough on my emotional life to understand that in times of stress, it is not crazy to let loose and seek to feel desirable. But to this day, she does not see the line she crossed by giving him her card and arranging for a second encounter (without ever bringing up to me that she could be able to do that).

Second, I made the fatal flaw of believing that I had the emotional intelligence, patience, understanding and unconditional love to see us through. I justified this by seeing the chaos I brought pushed her into this position.

The next month was the worst of my entire life. And that is saying something because my life has never been easy.

What you describe in great detail so reflects what occurred during that month. I was dealing with great crisis in my life. This loaded r/s was all that inspired me. Every smile or touch of the hand inspired me to continue on. After a year plus, it was not so easy to disentangle our lives. She agreed to attend a wedding with me that we had made confirmations months before. It was an amazing evening. I spun her around the dance floor like never before. She still says that was a life changing night. But she still ran off to the bathroom to appease my replacement with texts.

So be it. I became headstrong in winning her back. Even though a week later her proclamation that she needs to see where the relationship with my replacement was taking her almost killed me, I returned from the brink of death believing that this r/s was why I live.

Like you describe so well, every look from her eyes, every touch of her hand, every moment of being together (which came from my ability to give her space) fueled my desire to find a healthy way to be with her.

Yet it caused greater conflict in her life.

She began to feel the shame of having two men in her life, being less than honest with us both.

My T kept urging me to let her go. She would never let me go. I had to be the bigger person and give up. The current dynamic would hurt us both.

I gained the strength to accept that. I truly knew that if I did love her, this was the only path. I focussed on a casual statement that kept her engaged. She said that I was the warmest man she had ever met. I used this theme to make the hardest decision of my life. I decided to give up. But not without one last testament to my love and devotion to her.

By this point it was mid-December. I bought her a Christmas present. I gave her an electric blanket. I attached a note saying that I understood that she could not let go even if it was in her best interest. That I would have to be the one to do that. I hoped that the blanket would remind her of the warmth that she felt with me. That she know how much she was loved and every time she felt the warmth of that blanket she knew how deeply she was loved.

She called as soon as she found that gift.

She expressed emotions I never knew she had.

She told me how she knew my replacement was to build a wall against me, but that she could never face a Christmas without me.

This flipped my world. REALLY? I get my "lammy" back? I was at the top of my life. All of my patience, endurance, and devotion to our love was what it took.

We had an amazing holiday season. Love conquered the travesties of life. Our love grew deeper than I have ever known before.

But it was only a prelude to the absolute worst year of my life.

I am finding myself completely drained after writing this.

I have to break from this. I wanted to tell you the whole story. I will if you want to hear it. I am just exhausted now. Give a day or two.

If not, just know that after another year and a half, she bolted again.  After devaluing my replacement, she is again with him. Within a week of us taking space, she pursued him and made any contact with her a threat to her relationship with him. He has no idea that we were intimate through the whole time they were together before, nor that they became intimate while I still had clothes under the bed.

She bolted in a way that even her boys, who still text me ":)on't leave us" is confounded by the fact that they like my replacement.

I post this hoping that you don't want to be in my place. Hoping that you take Goldy's words seriously. It's not about just you and her. There is a third innocent part. She is devaluating you and him alternatively according to her needs.

If you think you hurt now, you have no idea what awaits.

[cosmonaut]

Pecator, I'm so sorry that you've been through such a difficult ordeal with your ex.  The roller coaster of highs and lows, I love you/I hate you, there and then gone (and on and on) with a pwBPD is just insane!  It will grind grown men into dust.  How are you managing with your breakup?  Are you working on detaching?  Are you trying to work things out with your ex?

I know how hard it is to be constantly reminded of an ex.  EVERYTHING reminds me of mine.  It's difficult to detach from that degree of closeness with someone.  Someone you truly loved and you expected to be with forever.

I'd be interested in hearing more of your story if you feel like sharing it.  This board has been very therapeutic and supportive for me during my own fairly recent breakup.

[In_n_Out]

Well I think that it's finally over now.  She had her day with my replacement and her mom (because we had it planned for some time and she gets along so well with his mom).  Yeah, ok, silly me was going to be "ok" with that as long as it went how I figured it would; a couple of hours over there and then she'd stroke my ego to tell me that they didn't get along and that it's not going to work.  I saw her in the morning before she went over there and that (of course) seemed to be the indication.  She said that her and her friend called him "Eeyore" after the donkey that was introverted and depressed.  We agreed that that kind of person wasn't healthy in her life.  "You're 'home' to me" she says as I left her house this morning.

Well, I went over to a friends for dinner and a movie and she was still over there (several hours later). She sent some "urgent" texts along with a picture of the Easter eggs that they made.  She said basically that she'll love me forever "no matter" and that she's having fun but it's a lot of pressure.  I replied that I was watching a movie with a friend and would text later.  Well, I had to drive by on my way home; I had to know and sure enough, she's still out.  I said "drive home safely.  Seems like you two worked things out.  I'm happy if you're happy".  She replied "I am only sure of the sound of my heart as the breath in me leaves and this day is done. And tomorrow I will try to remember to smile, even through the hidden tears".  Seems like sex that she didn't really want to have to me.

So I said that I hope that she's happy with her choices and that all that I wanted was her happiness and hope that she's found it.  No reply.  Time to block and move on.  You guys called it, she'll use whomever she can to get what she needs irregardless of the emotions of those that she tramples on.  What a lying b*****.  Should be of no surprise, I knew that she would do this.

Thanks all for your input.  Better that it happened now instead of later.

[cosmonaut]

I'm sorry, In_n_Out.   :'(  She's being so unfair to you (and the replacement).  You really do deserve better.  There's a woman out there waiting to meet a man as caring and thoughtful and loving as you.

I've decided to give up on my hopes of ever working things out with my ex, too.  The advice I've gotten from this forum, my therapist, and even my friends has been overwhelmingly to forget her and move on.  Despite that, I did call her last night and, predictably, got to answer.  I left a voicemail asking how she's been and saying that I missed her and think of her so often.  I said that I understood that she felt she needed to break things off, that I wanted things to be good between us, and I hoped that we could talk soon.  Absolutely no response.  I guess I got burned too.  I had to reach into the the fire to be sure it hurts.  She's got problems FAR bigger than I can ever hope to surmount.  I love her.  I do.  I think in some way I always will.  But it's just impossible to have a real relationship with her.  It's truly impossible.

I'm very sorry to hear that your ex was stringing you along.  It's a devastating effect of the disorder - the need to attach, but the inability to achieve true and lasting intimacy due to their engulfment fears.  It's tragic.  Your replacement will sooner or later come to the same fate as all the rest.  She's not going to live happily ever after with him.  She probably won't live happily ever after at all.  Not unless she's willing to deal with her disorder, and from all you've said, it doesn't sound like that will be happening.  You can have a happily ever after, though.  I can too.  We just need to focus on ourselves right now.  Detach.  Heal.  Grow.  Thrive.

[Pecator]

I too am sorry.

One thing though, if it is over, truly walk away and don't even glance back.

Your SO is manipulating you even more than mine did the first time and much more than now. She is giving you little signs of love in texts and such. Mine resented every time I tried to contact her. I am not sure which is worse.

And I totally get "driving by to see." But be careful, that can be crazy-making.

The first time she was with my replacement, I had just bought her an iPhone. She had neither the savvy nor decent computer so I set it up on mine. It didn't take long before I realized I could use the "Find my iPhone" app to know where she is. I justified it to myself and even my T as information helps me to heal. I told my T that it was like a painful procedure at the doctor. I am the type that always has to watch. Whether stitches or resetting a broken hand, I always prefer to see it coming than looking away and waiting for the pain.

I never stalked her with the app. Well, I suppose it was still cyber-stalking. But it was like a drug. That is the crazy-making part. "Oh, she is at her mom's" and I would remember how her family loved me and always wondered when I would marry her.

Even worse, ":)amn, she spent the night with him, things must be going well." Damn, she went home early, things must not be going well." This s**t will drive you mad! This is the crazy part of BPD. We as partners are trying to figure out thinks the the pwBPD doesn't even understand.

I will admit, this is a do as I say not as I do advice. I would give anything to be able to use that app again.  When I sit alone in my apartment for days, I really wish I could see what ever pain is coming. But that is the part of BPD than affects us as partners. This is where we need to focus on ourselves

[In_n_Out]

The thing that gets me is that I *knew* not to listen to what she says but instead observe what she does; her actions speak louder than her words and yet I got sucked in not once (initial r/s), not twice, but three times and each time it was because she has the rehearsed lines down pat and can play them as needed, when needed.  As long as someone is buying her groceries, helping her with bills AND being all googly eyed over her, she will toss out those lines as needed to keep you doing those things. 

Her last text to me last night is filled with guilt and shame.  She knows exactly what she's doing to people but she has absolutely no way to control herself.  She will prostitute herself in the name of "love" and material goods. 

When I was at her house in the morning (it was *my* turn in the morning, his later in the day), she was in the kitchen saying "all that I ever wanted was just to be loved and to love.  I have so much love to give".  Well, again, it's whatever it takes in the name of love and she will step all over somebody to get her needs filled and once they step back and say "something isn't right here" and she senses that, she begins to pull away and the search for the next victim begins.  A truly dreadful and evil disorder this BPD is.

[cosmonaut]

The thing that gets me is that I *knew* not to listen to what she says but instead observe what she does; her actions speak louder than her words and yet I got sucked in not once (initial r/s), not twice, but three times and each time it was because she has the rehearsed lines down pat and can play them as needed, when needed.  As long as someone is buying her groceries, helping her with bills AND being all googly eyed over her, she will toss out those lines as needed to keep you doing those things. 

Her last text to me last night is filled with guilt and shame.  She knows exactly what she's doing to people but she has absolutely no way to control herself.  She will prostitute herself in the name of "love" and material goods. 

You said it, man.  Finding attachments, no matter how interchangeable, are a matter of survival to pwBPD.  At least in their distorted thinking - but no matter, to them it is a very real need.  You're right, they truly can't help themselves.  It's like needing to eat to them.  Many pwBPD have become extremely practiced at manipulation to get what they need - it's how they survived childhood (and adulthood in many cases).  I have never met anyone more skilled at subtle manipulation than my ex.  She has perfected a way of pulling at your heart strings, being vulnerable and helpless, and guilting you into doing what she wants.  She is a grand master at it.  That is something I am starting to see now that the FOG is lifting a bit - the massive degree to which I was manipulated from the very start.  And how easily I fell into the role of the fixer and caretaker - the white knight.  My own codependent needs made me the perfect target for her.

Don't beat yourself up about things, In_n_Out.  All of us here have fallen for the same sort of routine.  I certainly did.  Your story could easily be my story.  The important thing is we now realize how much we were manipulated and used.  The next step seems to be detaching and working on analyzing how we became such willing victims.

I agree with you: BPD is one of the most dreadful and evil disorders I know.  It causes incredible suffering for everyone involved.

[In_n_Out]

And as much as my intellect tells me that it was all lies and manipulation, I know that if at this very moment she sent a text saying that it was a horrible day/night for her and that they fought and that she's "confused" about everything but "knows only one thing, that I love you", I would swallow that fishhook again just like that.  It really is an effect on our brains that they have; the same part of the brain that deals with addiction.  I know that it will kill me but I'll take that chance just for another "dance with the dragon".  Wow. 

[cosmonaut]

I am the same way.  If my ex called and said that she was so sorry, and she knows she hurt me so much, and she was so confused, and she misses me, and she loves me, and she's realized that she made a terrible mistake - yeah, I would probably take her back too.  Even though I know that it will almost certainly end in tears.  Even though my head knows she's just manipulating me again.  My heart would probably overrule my head and I'd be back in the dance too.

We have to work on detaching.  That is how we can break the cycle.  There are many posts here from others than have managed to do this and when they have been contacted by their exes, realized that they sincerely don't want to be with them anymore.  We can get there too.

Can block her texts/calls?  Or at least ignore them?  I expect she's going to be going all out now that she knows she's been caught and the triangulation is ending.  Don't let her reel you back in.  Stay strong.  NO CONTACT.  That's the overwhelming recommendation of those who have successfully recovered.  It may not have to be NC forever, but is does while we detach.

[In_n_Out]

Yes, I have an app that will block her texts and put any calls from her straight to VM.  I just need to find the strength to pull the trigger and do the blocking; but I'm fighting the "need" to want to hear from her one more time about what happened last night.  My heart says "you're making assumptions" and that *I* should feel guilty because I was over at a female friends house last night having dinner and watching movies - something that she no doubt would argue that she was simply doing the same thing.  Of course the difference is my friend is strictly plutonic where as her r/s is not.  And yes, it is absolutely the FOG that I'm in.  I know that.  I'll find that strength though and your post will help.  I'll keep reading it and hope that I can convince myself that I need to do what I need to do to protect myself - NOW.

[cosmonaut]

Yes, do it NOW.  Do it while you are angry and motivated.  Don't wait until tonight when you have cooled and miss her and she starts with her empty, sweet nothings again.  Block her calls, block her texts, add her to your email block list, and de-friend her on Facebook.  This board is very clear that this is the easiest route for BOTH of you.  She's never going to face her disorder while she's being catered to either.  You have to take care of you and your son.  She is not your responsibility anymore.  She can take care of herself.  She's a survivor.  She's shown that time and again.

Seriously, block her NOW.  If you have an iPhone, you can use the block feature to not receive any calls or texts from her.  Don't let her pull you back in.  You know she can't be trusted.

[Pecator]

God, I need to be on these boards more and more. Hope I am not switching addictions.

What cosmo says is so scary. I don't know what I would do if were in your shoes I/O. Mine has blocked me so she is in NC. I need to do that as well, but we are still a bit entangled. I still have a few things in her place. Then there are the kids. Not surprising, neither their father nor her last relationship will even speak to her (after seven and five years respectively). Unfortunately the kids suffered as well. I so do not want to be that person. She has acknowledged that they miss me very much. I took the 15 year-old out for dinner last week. It was very nice. In the only phone call I had with her, she said she was going to have to sit down and talk to him. It was very uncomfortable for her. I am sure it also threatens the lies she has told to my replacement.

But I/O follow cosmos advice. It was the most beautiful, romantic, and hopeful time when she came back to me the first time. It only lasted a month until things went bad again. She is devaluing him to you and you to him. I cannot tell you how much it hurt when she did it a second time.


Yet like you both, I don't know what I would do if she called me

[maxsterling]

Wow. You know, I've been following your saga because I think it was giving me hope.  I thought your ex might be one who finally started to "get it" and grow and be able to take some control over her life.  But, it sounds like she's still just a "glimmer" and probably just still in the cycle, and still incapable of being what you need.  It sounds like she is really confused, and I feel bad for her.  I feel bad because she obviously needs something, but I don't even think she knows what it is, and even if she had what she thinks she needs, she would still not be satisfied.

If you are strong enough to accept her as a friend and accept the push-pull for what it is, by all means let the communication lines be open.  If you are expecting more, perhaps best to shut things down as you know you will be led down the path of hurt.   

Personally, I'd be so bitter at a woman who cheated on me to so much as even want to talk to her ever again.  So I admire your strength here for even considering her again.  I can't tell you what path to take, but I can say that from what you have shared about her she sounds more functional than the significant others of the rest of us.  Unfortunately, she still falls short of someone you can have a healthy relationship with. 

I guess I am going through similar with my GF.  I sometimes think she is right on the brink of a breakthrough, then I get reminders that this is all part of her decades long cycle.  she gets it, but then she doesn't.  And then I realize it's the same thing - she can't really say what makes her happy, what she wants out of life or why (other than to be married and have a child), she can't make decisions about anything. 

I'm sure if your ex would make a decision and say "I want this!" and go for it, it would make you feel a whole lot better.  Same goes with me.  She doesn't seem like she feels very strongly about anything she wants - so how do I know she really feels that strongly about me as opposed to me being the vehicle that meets her needs?

[goldylamont]

really good advice and convo from everyone.

In-n-Out, i wanted to thank you actually for being kind when interpreting my posts. I realize that much of what i say sometimes may be very direct and not what people want to hear. I try and speak my truth and I have a protective streak (don't we all, hah! ) but sometimes after I click the "Post" button here I wonder if I may be saying too much or perhaps not being gentle enough in my delivery. I was worried and you were understanding with your responses so thank you for this.

The other people posting are really giving good insights--I will perhaps throw in my 2 cents about No Contact. And that is that you don't necessarily have to look at it only as if you will never ever ever ever have any contact whatsoever with this person. This can be an overall goal, but I don't want you beating yourself up like you broke some rule if you get weak or if the initiates and you get weak. Try setting realistic goals for going NC and know it is a process.

Also, as cosmo stated use your HEALTHY ANGER to assist you in blocking her on facebook, etc. This is what I did the *last* time my ex pissed me off. Immediately deleted all forms of communication and FB friendship--this was symbolic as I had her phone # memorized, but this ritual/symbolism is an important step to take to reclaim your healthy independence. Honor your anger by protecting yourself the next time you feel it surge up! Then it's easier for your anger to pass since it's done it's job.

Also also, regarding NC... . if you can don't contact her at all. In your situation I say it's *highly* likely she will contact you because, well you know how a shark can smell a drop of blood in like 1 cubic mile of seawater--ya mon she can tell that she still has some power over you. I think a good line to say in response to her, if you have to buckle and communicate is this:

"Hi ex. I appreciate you contacting me. I hope you know I will always care for you. However I need time to allow myself to heal and move on. Best of luck to you whatever path you choose." << short, sweet, non-provoking. and you can give the finger to her in the privacy of your own home after you send it 

[In_n_Out]

Wow. You know, I've been following your saga because I think it was giving me hope.  I thought your ex might be one who finally started to "get it" and grow and be able to take some control over her life.  But, it sounds like she's still just a "glimmer" and probably just still in the cycle, and still incapable of being what you need.  It sounds like she is really confused, and I feel bad for her.  I feel bad because she obviously needs something, but I don't even think she knows what it is, and even if she had what she thinks she needs, she would still not be satisfied.

If you are strong enough to accept her as a friend and accept the push-pull for what it is, by all means let the communication lines be open.  If you are expecting more, perhaps best to shut things down as you know you will be led down the path of hurt.   

Personally, I'd be so bitter at a woman who cheated on me to so much as even want to talk to her ever again.  So I admire your strength here for even considering her again.  I can't tell you what path to take, but I can say that from what you have shared about her she sounds more functional than the significant others of the rest of us.  Unfortunately, she still falls short of someone you can have a healthy relationship with. 

I guess I am going through similar with my GF.  I sometimes think she is right on the brink of a breakthrough, then I get reminders that this is all part of her decades long cycle.  she gets it, but then she doesn't.  And then I realize it's the same thing - she can't really say what makes her happy, what she wants out of life or why (other than to be married and have a child), she can't make decisions about anything. 

I'm sure if your ex would make a decision and say "I want this!" and go for it, it would make you feel a whole lot better.  Same goes with me.  She doesn't seem like she feels very strongly about anything she wants - so how do I know she really feels that strongly about me as opposed to me being the vehicle that meets her needs?

Well we met again last night after my workout.  I pulled away a little bit and she sensed that "now you're pulling away, I can understand why" and silly me agreed to meet with her for a walk.  She told me about Sunday night; how she spent the day with my replacements mom and then he called her crying so she agreed to go over and talk to him.  According to her, he was crying saying that he'd change whatever he needs to change in order to be with her.  That he doesn't understand her mood swings and said "I thought maybe bipolar but they change so quickly".  According to her, she let him know about BPD.  I don't think that she did; I know that he's questioning what is going on but I don't think that she spilled the beans to him.  I replied "well, now he's joined the dance".  The dance? She asked.  "Yes, the push/pull dance that I've been in with you.  He's developed a co-dependence as I have and now you have both of us as dance partners".  She commented that she's worried that I'll always "box her in to a category" meaning that I'll always be "psycho-analyzing" her.  I told her that as much as I may think that it is a mistake being with this guy, that is not my mistake to make but something for her to discover and learn from.  That I am a friend if she wants to talk but that I have my life to work on. 

Her tone changed as she felt me pulling away.  "I'm so proud of you.  You've gotten back in shape in an incredible fashion and you're moving ahead and I'm stuck".  She went on about how she is "trouble" and that I should move on.  I validated her emotions and tried to show her that she was not "worthless".  She said "I thank God for you" and that nobody has ever fought so hard for her, ever.  Sure; all the things that she knows that I want to hear to boost my ego.

I sent her an email with the problem solving suggestions as outlined in the book "Loving Someone with BPD" (www.amazon.com/Someone-Borderline-Personality-Disorder--Control-ebook/).  I suggested to her (after validation) that if she feels confused, stuck and lost that she apply these steps to solve the "problem". 

She at least took a look at the ebook that I "lent" her.  The title is "Stop Sabotaging your relationships, a 30-day DBT challenge for those with BPD".  She said "yes, that's what I've always done".  I asked her to share with me any other books that she's currently reading and she showed me a book about "Setting Boundaries" and she commented that she's never set healthy boundaries in her r/s's and I praised her for doing some work to identify those issues and to change them. 

After I got home, I received a flood of texts that basically validated my emotions and praised me for my recent achievements and thanking me for the "so many things you have taught me" and that she loves me, "always".

So now I do start to pull away.  No more running to her every time she calls (I did last night but that was to reinforce some points that I made earlier).  I need to see if she will actually begin doing some "work"; work on herself and the BPD (DBT's/therapy) and if she will resolve this triangulation by either setting me free or setting him free.  I'm not hugely optimistic that any of those things will happen and so I will gradually pull further and further away if they don't start to happen - and soon.  I will reward her with any progress that she does make however.  So we will see. 

I can type this with some strength (at the moment) but thanks to your guys' replies yesterday, I feel that I do have the strength to finally walk away should that need be the case.  Yes, I'll have the withdrawal depression that '2010' talks about (re-reading his posts too btw) but I'm at a point that there has got to be signs of progress going forward and if not, then I just need to throw up my hands, knowing that I did my very best; and call it a 'day'.

[In_n_Out]

goldylamont, I posted my reply before reading your post and no need to thank me for taking your advice.  I appreciate your advice and I know that you give it from the experience that you have with this and so it is very important advice for me, so thank you!

As I just posted, I'm not going to go straight to NC at this point.  I will become less and less involved however and as indicated by last night, the shark already sensed the blood in the water and pulled closer.  She about tackled me on her sofa last night before I left; with tears in her eyes, thanking me for "being me".  I want her to hit rock bottom; either she will feel that she's screwing things up and I'm starting to walk or she will sense that I'm abandoning her and she will walk from me (very likely).  I want her to identify the pattern that has always been in her life (we talked about that) and apply HER solution to this triangulation; either she leaves this other guy (and I need very sound proof that she has) or she leaves me.  She can't have both. 

Thanks again - keep any advice coming with no regard for what you may say - give it to me straight; I appreciate that.

[In_n_Out]

By the way, I do have a timeline for when I will pull away for good; mid April.  For months now, she has been planning on going on a cruise with my replacement and his family.  This has been a source of contention for a while now.  She says to me that she's never been on a cruise and just wants to have the opportunity to do that.  When pressed how she feels about going on a cruise with him and she's less than enthusiastic about that; but of course what she shows/tells me and what she shows/tells him is another thing.  She says that she's "stuck", that they can't get a refund and that she *has* to go.  Of course she doesn't *have* to do anything and we've talked about that.  She will go though, I'm 99% sure of that and once she does, that will get my ire to the point that I will block and wash my hands of it all. 

So, I guess I need some advice here.  How do I tell her that this will be a boundary that I will enforce; if she goes, then I walk.  Or do I?  Or do I say that if she goes, we will never be more than just friends - and say it in a very serious way.  Of course, that will tell her that she can go and that the door would still be open.  This is a tricky one.  If I do say (in effect) go and I'm gone, that will be perceived as an ultimatum and it will backfire.  Do I just sit back and see what her move is?  No need, I already know that she's going to go.  Guess I'm answering my own question   But, I'll take any and all advice that you all may have on this one.

[In_n_Out]

How about this exchange?

H: You seem like you're pulling away again

Me: I'm here as a friend for you <name>.  I'm not "pulling away" from anything because there is nothing for me to pull away from at this point.  I offer you my friendship but I'm telling you that when you go on that cruise with <him>, that will tell me that the value of the cruise is more important to you than anything that we may ever have beyond only friendship.  That throwing away any chance for us to work out things together is easier than telling the family of <him> that you are uncomfortable going on a cruise when you are unsure of things at this time, well that is very revealing to me and I will be sad but that will of been the choice that you have made and it will then leave me with no other choice but to say "good luck to you".

Something like that.

Or maybe something simpler:

Me: I'm sad.

Her: Why?

Me: Because you will be going on a cruise soon with a man that has taken my place and that will mean that we will never be a couple again.

Gauge her response and then take it from there... .

[In_n_Out]

Actually, reflecting on this all day today (and *that* needs to stop finally because it is affecting my work and other social activities) I don't know what the heck I'm thinking with this talk of us somehow getting back together.  Here's how things look from *her* perspective, and I'm afraid that I can see where she's coming from:

1. She would have to break up (for good) with <him> meaning that she pisses off his family, of whom his mother she is close to and *works with* so that will put a serious strain on her job.  Now granted, she's been there less than a year so we aren't talking a "career" job here, but seeing as how she cannot handle stress in the least, that is stress that she will not want to undertake.

2. She would have to explain to friends and family that a) she broke up with this guy (which may not be too difficult if I am to believe the things that she has said that her friend has said about him and knowing that she tells her mom *most* everything) but b) that not only did she break up with <him> but is now seeing <me> again.  She has indicated that her brother has already thrown out the remark "you aren't talking to *him* (me) again are you?".  So yes, I was in their graces at one point but after she painted me black her family did what they probably do with all of her r/s ex's; paint them black as well so that there's no conflict of interests.  So I'd have to somehow get painted "white" again.

3. This damn cruise thing that she would have to cancel out of, despite (she says) that <his> family can't get a refund at this point and given as mentioned that she can't "do" stress, that would be stress that she would not want to take on.

4. Um, BPD.  Let's not forget that she is dBPD and those traits would have to be addressed.  They can't be "cured" or stopped but perhaps learned to be dealt with better via DBT/CBT but that would mean her taking the initiative to start those steps (again) and so far she has not really done so aside from inquiring if she can obtain insurance to cover all/some of those costs.  I haven't asked or followed up on this in a couple of weeks so may ask just to get a gauge of how serious she is about doing this - which my guess is nothing has been done.

5-50. BPD deserves to fill up all of those rankings in and of itself.

So can I really be *just* her friend?  I'm mixed.  If I could really detach emotionally and just enjoy any time that we do spend together without finding myself wanting to reattach, then sure.  I have other female friends and there's no looming "will we date or not date" hanging over us.  Can I do that for this woman, a woman that I loved, lived with and was engaged to for nearly 4 years?  :)o I really need to answer that?  

So what do I do?  :)o I say "sorry, but I can't even be your friend because it's too difficult" and thus confirm her 'abandonment' fears and she slips completely backwards and I feel like crap for it.  And yes, I know, *I* can't "fix" her but I do feel that we've made some progress in this.  Maybe this is familiar territory for her and she's had the rescuing bf before and has been in this same position so she really has made *no* new self discoveries or perhaps she is really finding out things about herself via me and so there has been at least that progress.  Again though, I have to remind myself that if that is the case, then you would think that she would want to seek out a T and try and get this thing corrected once and for all (or at least dealt with).  Yet again, as "2010" would say, this has been her defense mechanism all of her life and is the way that she is programmed.  She may realize that things are different about her; she even thinks that she's 'broken', but she can't conceive of a scenario that has her acting in any different way.

I guess that I'm just going to stick to the original plan and slowly but surely slip away and let her make her own choices.  It's all that I can do really.  She will probably wind up resenting me or hating me for "abandoning" her but that will be the final chapter in which we can part ways for... . ever?  a while?  Hell if I know.  Now I sound as confused as she is about all of this... . um, FOG ya think?    At least I'm no longer a bawling, crying, sobbing mess just thinking of the prospect of her not being in my life and being with another man.  I've become a bit numbed to it all at this point because we've done the "final farewell" scene 4 or 5 times now.  But alas, I'm sure that once it *really* is down to that final farewell (yet again!), I will be a wreck.  That's when I'll lean even more on you guys, k?  

Edited for typo's and grammar. 

[maxsterling]

Interesting.  Personally, I think this should be one of those "secret" boundaries.  I say "secret" because if you tell her that she needs to choose the cruise or you, and she chooses to stay, how do you know she isn't just doing it for you and not doing it for herself or her future?  later, she may use this against you -"I cancelled this cruise just for you, and now I want xyz out of you!".

this is the same issue I face with boundaries.  I want evidence that she is doing things for own happiness and not just something to please me or motivate me to do something.  So if I was to tell my GF "I don't want to talk about marriage with you until you are able to take care of yourself and contribute to the household responsibilities" (a boundary).  If she heard that, she may then motivate to shower every day, take out the trash, clean, cook, and do dishes.  And she may continue on that path for a few months.  And then she will come back at me and say "see, I am doing this now, why won't you propose to me?"  But should she get what she wants (a marriage proposal) she very well may go back to her old ways.  I don't want to be in a relationship where she only does things to please or get what she wants out of me.  I want to be in a relationship with someone who sees they are doing those things for their own happiness.  And if I am open about my boundary, I will not know her motivation for change.  

I see this "cruise" as a similar trap.  It's reasonable to say "poop or get off the pot", but remember, you are dealing with a pwBPD who tends to use manipulation as a tool to get her needs met.  She already knows she needs to choose you or him, so if you force her to choose, she's probably going to come back and say "see, I chose you, now give me what I want."  And she won't get better.  Her problem is indecisiveness.  She wants someone to make the decision for her.  And you giving such a boundary, she sees an ultimatum, and now you have played into her game - she now sees you as making the decision for her.  

Believe me, I'm stuck in the same thing - I want to see evidence that she is capable for making decisions for her own life, because that shows me she is changing.  But she wants me to propose in order to lay down her life plan for her.  So, me proposing to her right now would only feed her indecisiveness.  

My advice is to bring up the cruise a few times, just to ask her if she is still going.  But don't tell her you will walk if she decides to go.  Maybe float the idea that you would be interested in taking a cruise someday. But leave the decision up to her.  And if she decides to go with her replacement, then tell her afterwards that it's clear she is not ready to make up her mind about her future, and you can't sit by and wait, and that you have chosen another path.  That's when you move on.

[In_n_Out]

My advice is to bring up the cruise a few times, just to ask her if she is still going.  But don't tell her you will walk if she decides to go.  Maybe float the idea that you would be interested in taking a cruise someday. But leave the decision up to her.  And if she decides to go with her replacement, then tell her afterwards that it's clear she is not ready to make up her mind about her future, and you can't sit by and wait, and that you have chosen another path.  That's when you move on.

Thanks Max, that's perfect.  As "pro-active" as I want to be to get her to realize the 'consequences' of her going, I cannot do that.  She has to make that choice and depending on her choice, I then react to that decision.  She's going to go, I have no doubt about that; she's always wanted to go on a cruise and she would go if Attila the Hun asked her.  The interesting twist is that <his> parents will be on the cruise as well so I don't know what their beliefs or morals are but does she room with him on the cruise or do they all room together?  How would that work?  She rooms with him, huh?  Ugh, ok, now I'm cringing.  So yeah, I let her make her choice and then walk once she's made it.  I have mentioned the cruise a few times and said "hell, you want to go on a cruise, I have a client that can get us a good rate on one" (we had even looked in to that at one point).  She gave that smile like "nice try".  She's stuck, she *has* to go in her mind and she will pony up the goods to keep the r/s with <him> secured.  I must remind myself of that when it is time to walk.

Thanks for the input Max. 

[Pecator]

oh I/O, I love you man. I totally took this walk your taking.

I will be direct, but is is out of concern and a warning from someone who is at the end of that path

My cautions are many.

First you are putting hope in the fact that she is listening to a friend with insight (you) and glanced through some books. Glean the articles here and remind yourself how complex and difficult treatment is for BPD. The only possible positive sign is if she was motivated enough to seek the right T and devote as much energy as she can into the difficult recovery before her. Even then you should be cautious about the success rate.

I would not put any "sign" terminology to the cruise issue. If she doesn't go, I think you know that it will most definitely come back on you. You know that will not be the end. My uBPDex raged a few times. She said regretful things. I blocked them out cause I knew they weren't real. However, the most hurtful attack still rings in my ears, "You took my (my replacement) away from me!" Yes she did say "my(name)."

Perhaps she does go and in BPD fashion, the trip doesn't meet her needs. She could come back from the trip having had a horrible time. The trip could very easily become a disaster showing her that she and your replacement could never be! She will come running back to you free of triangulation! How beautiful would that be?

I have read enough of your posts to see how clear and intelligently you are able to help others. So I have to believe you also know "Happily ever after" does not begin there.

Here is how my triangulation situation worked out.

According to my ex we were broken up when she decided to start hitting bars. “I wanted to see what it was like to go on a normal date again without all the pressure.” Now one look at email from those dates show a couple struggling through uncertain change with promises that we would get through it. No break up

Even though I knew nothing of BPD at the time, I already learned that facts would not help right then. I accepted the false pretense.

I wrote elsewhere about the stoplight where this happened. I pushed her to talk about what was bothering her. "I went out for coffee with someone else" Ever strong, ever compassionate, ever forgiving, loving unconditional, and a bit of self confidence, I asked, "How did it go?"

"Well, I really liked him. I never expected some random guy I met in a bar would actually be so nice. I wish he was a jerk. It would be so easy."

I didn't see it then, but note how to her, it was his fault for being nice not hers for being in a bar, giving her card, accepting and showing up for a date.

At this point I had some self-esteem left and could take a bit of competition. It couldn't possibly last given the depth of our love (wish I had the clarity of this board back then)

Soon, it was my fault for trying to compete. She painted me black and blocked me. Any expression of my love and devotion to her became a threat. You can't imagine how awful the email was in response to one with a very romantic description of her eyes.

She did however agree to attend two functions we were already committed to.

The first was a wedding with family very close to me. They loved my ex. I still clearly see her walking across the parking lot, she was amazing and gleaming. We had a wonderful night. I spun her around the dance floor like a queen. She counts this as one of the best nights of our history. Probably because she still texted my replacement from the bathroom every 15 mins.

The second was my going away party at my job. She grew very close to my people and a rare expression of emotion was shown. It was a very sweet afternoon. Very intimate and close.

Three hours later she called to tell me that very day that she couldn't do this anymore. She was going to follow the path of my replacement. I had been suffering from anxiety from a past trauma from before I met her, plus the anxiety of no job, no direction, no certainty now…two hours later I collapsed and was hospitalized. What was thought to be a heart issue was determined to be a nerve issue on the level of PTSD. She never came to the hospital.

When I went home, she did come by. I didn't move out of the bed. I asked if she would lay with me for just a second. I needed some peace and rest. Reluctantly she sat on the bed. I asked her to tell me she thought I could make it through this. That I wasn’t crazy. That what we HAD (not have) was good. She was so cold. Finally she, again reluctantly, gave me a hug and left within an hour.

Soon my therapist called. My ex called her and said she should deal with me and let me know that she (ex) was blocking me again and never wanted to hear from me.

I am a survivor. And this set me on an incredible path of healing. That path would have been a hell of a easier if I had known about BPD then and began to detach instead of doing this:

I knew any emotional intensity threatened her terribly. So after a while she began to respond to some sweet engaging but not intense notes. Soon we were back in phone contact.

Sorry, didn’t mean to make this my thread, but boy it is therapeutic to write this stuff down.

I/O this is where I so identify with your dance. I knew cracks in the replacement were emerging. She was opening up emotionally to me. We spoke daily on the phone. I became more like her friend helping her make an intelligent decisions (fully aware I wasn’t being completely objective). We went for walks, wine and an occasional lunch. It was fantastic every time I saw her. And it was leading to a very hard decision for her. To her credit, she recognized herself that talking to me every night before she fell asleep meant there was something wanting in the r/s with my replacement. I had him on the ropes.

She said she could not make an objective decision about my replacement, if I didn’t give her space. (looking back, she always gave him higher concern than me, because she new I would be less likely to leave her). I made a deal I would go NC for two weeks If she would then let me present her with my final argument for her to make a choice.

This was great fun, I brought flowers and chocolates (things the replacement hadn’t caught onto yet) a beautiful letter, and hear-tugging video with family pictures up to that point. We began sleeping together again. It was magical, beautiful, and amazing time

Great fun... . but can you see traits of three people suffering from the effects of BPD?

Now she was cheating on me with him, him with me, and I was party to the hurt because unlike my replacement, I knew everything that was going on. He had many advantages over me, novelty, stability, no baggage. I had one. I knew her deeply, good and bad, strengths and weaknesses. Again I knew nothing of BPD, but I was in my own intense therapy. I began to see my ex had no ability to make the choice. Even then, I knew her abandonment fears were strong. She had to chose between someone stable who could have the ability to leave her. Or someone who she knew would never leave her though his current instability could force him to. She would have liked it to last longer until she new my replacement would commit to her, but she was becoming overwhelmed by the shame this triangulation caused.

I too had to take responsibility for being an active player in this mess. It was one of the hardest decisions I had ever had to make, being I was still so wrapped in the trauma bond. I decided that if I truly loved her, I needed to end something she couldn’t.It was the best way out of a bad situation. I told her about it and asked if I could leave her with an early Christmas gift.

She called the night within hours of dropping it off. “No, this is the wrong choice. I could never imagine a Christmas without you.” And so on. This was the only time in our relationship she asked me to come back.

Wonderful, we made it. A week later we were at an exclusive Christmas Dinner and Dance (with tickets she bought for my replacement). I turned down a position offered in the States and we put our sights on building a life together here. I was on top of the world again.

But again, there were many lessons unlearned.

First, she crushed my replacement. I tried to reason with her. Let her know I have patience... . lets figure out how to let him down gently. She would not listen. The next day she went to him and broke it off clearly. He never saw it coming. He bought tickets to meet his parents over the holidays. I was shocked at how abrupt she was.

This part I have a question. She did grieve my replacement. Her boys said she cried and cried. I gave her a few days to do that. Is this seen in pwBPD? She has never grieved any of our break-ups.

Second, My replacement hung over our relationship in bad times. I mentioned above the hurtful statement. Every time she ran from me she wrote letters to my replacement trying to get him back.

Third, this last break-up was the most cruel and hurtful of all (and I was hospitalized after one). She justifies it by saying I am too manipulative. I illustrated this one in hope that you can see, even though I simply expressed my deep love for her, there was unintentional manipulation. Still, as I got healthier, I simply gave her space and she returned on her own. This claim of manipulation frees her from the responsibilities of the choices she made.

Last, she pursued the one man that could hurt me the most. She is aware that I know how much lying she had to do to get him back so fast and furious after crushing him so completely. She knows this is the last man I would ever try the triangulation thing again.

She also knows her kids will grow to love him and that is the final piece to push me out of the puzzle.


Again, sorry I spilled on your thread. But I wanted to tell the story of one person who took this path, and where it lead me.

I hope you stay safe.