R/S advice, BPD style

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Wow Pecator, no apologies necessary.  We have very nearly the same stories. So mine just went over the deep end; it ended just a bit ago:

In an interesting twist of fate, a group of friends (guys) that were my best friends for years and that I had not seen for 6 years because of marriage, life, etc., reached out and contacted me out of the blue on facebook.  We chatted all day and one of the guys that I was really close friends with is single and trying to get back in to shape (we know how that is guys   So the point of this for me was there *will* be a life for me post pwBPDxgf.  I'm reconnecting with old friends and I won't be a loner sitting in my room broken hearted.  This gave me some strength today.

I'll try and be brief but I broke every taboo that there is for a pwBPD.  I basically laid out the ultimatum and of course it didn't go well at all.  But that's ok because she said the one thing that needed to be said when I told her that she has a very important decision to make; him or me "I'd have to want to be with you".  Boom, that says it all.  I said sorry that I put this pressure on you but I had to know and now I do. 

I came home and made dinner for me and my son.  Then a text "can you come outside to talk".  Damn, really?  So I go out and she hugs me, crying.  I again apologized and said but now I know and she shook her head and now suddenly she changes her tune, that is not all that she wants.  But, I pressed on because otherwise I'd be stuck in that holding pattern.  I said that there are ways out of being "stuck" like she feels that she is and I can tell her my ideas if she is interested.  She wasn't (of course).  So she's frustrated and now she turns it on me "this is what I was afraid of.  Why the 180?".  - Because I'm hurt.  I was hurt Sunday night.  Can you validate my emotions too, I am hurting!  "Well I'm hurt too".  Great, I validate that you are hurt by my 180 but I think that I've had more than a simple reasonable understanding and patience with all of this.  She's not budging and has the crossed arms while shaking her head.  Going downhill quickly.  I ask her to come closer and I put my arms around her.  Her arms are still crossed.  I uncross them and wrap them around me.  She's crying.  She says "you said that you would be my friend that I could go figure this out (meaning with <him> and if that didn't work out, who knows, maybe we would have a chance".  Uh no, I didn't say that but ok, let's play your game.  "Sure baby, go figure out what you need to figure out". 

So she got in her car and I said "see you around?".  Sure.  It's not a goodbye.  "Ok, coffee?  Walks around the square?".  Sure, but not for a few days.  "Ok then".  I rushed back inside to eat my dinner.

So that should get me painted black I would figure.  Now I just slip away.  I know, "block her!".  Yeah, I will.  Got to get that last bit of satisfaction with a wave of texts from her.  Sorry, I just need to do that.

Pecator, you're right.  This is a very serious disorder and there is no win-win situation in it at all.  Thanks for your story, it reinforces what I was feeling today.

[In_n_Out]

Wow Pecator, no apologies necessary.  We have very nearly the same stories. So mine just went over the deep end; it ended just a bit ago:

In an interesting twist of fate, a group of friends (guys) that were my best friends for years and that I had not seen for 6 years because of marriage, life, etc., reached out and contacted me out of the blue on facebook.  We chatted all day and one of the guys that I was really close friends with is single and trying to get back in to shape (we know how that is guys   So the point of this for me was there *will* be a life for me post pwBPDxgf.  I'm reconnecting with old friends and I won't be a loner sitting in my room broken hearted.  This gave me some strength today.

I'll try and be brief but I broke every taboo that there is for a pwBPD.  I basically laid out the ultimatum and of course it didn't go well at all.  But that's ok because she said the one thing that needed to be said when I told her that she has a very important decision to make; him or me "I'd have to want to be with you".  Boom, that says it all.  I said sorry that I put this pressure on you but I had to know and now I do. 

I came home and made dinner for me and my son.  Then a text "can you come outside to talk".  Damn, really?  So I go out and she hugs me, crying.  I again apologized and said but now I know and she shook her head and now suddenly she changes her tune, that is not all that she wants.  But, I pressed on because otherwise I'd be stuck in that holding pattern.  I said that there are ways out of being "stuck" like she feels that she is and I can tell her my ideas if she is interested.  She wasn't (of course).  So she's frustrated and now she turns it on me "this is what I was afraid of.  Why the 180?".  - Because I'm hurt.  I was hurt Sunday night.  Can you validate my emotions too, I am hurting!  "Well I'm hurt too".  Great, I validate that you are hurt by my 180 but I think that I've had more than a simple reasonable understanding and patience with all of this.  She's not budging and has the crossed arms while shaking her head.  Going downhill quickly.  I ask her to come closer and I put my arms around her.  Her arms are still crossed.  I uncross them and wrap them around me.  She's crying.  She says "you said that you would be my friend that I could go figure this out (meaning with <him> and if that didn't work out, who knows, maybe we would have a chance".  Uh no, I didn't say that but ok, let's play your game.  "Sure baby, go figure out what you need to figure out". 

So she got in her car and I said "see you around?".  Sure.  It's not a goodbye.  "Ok, coffee?  Walks around the square?".  Sure, but not for a few days.  "Ok then".  I rushed back inside to eat my dinner.

So that should get me painted black I would figure.  Now I just slip away.  I know, "block her!".  Yeah, I will.  Got to get that last bit of satisfaction with a wave of texts from her.  Sorry, I just need to do that.

Pecator, you're right.  This is a very serious disorder and there is no win-win situation in it at all.  Thanks for your story, it reinforces what I was feeling today.

[cosmonaut]

Hey, In_n_Out.  These posts of yours are fascinating, and I am reading all of them.  You have some keen insights and your writing displays a lot of introspection.  Keep posting.

That's great news about your reconnecting with old friends.  Having a support network will make this time much more bearable.  Do they know yet about the issues going on in your relationship with your ex?  I know it may not be something you feel comfortable bringing up yet with them.  Having someone to talk to about things is very helpful, though.  Of course, there is this board, but not quite the same as someone in person to talk with.

You are taking the turn of events with your ex extremely well.  I don't know that I would be as calm and patient as you are being.  So, awesome job there.  While sad (I too was hoping it could work out with you two), it isn't that surprising that she is unwilling to end the triangulation.  She was obviously needing that situation to continue, despite her claims of being so "confused" (perhaps true).  However, her behavior didn't seem to be showing any indication she was willing to end the triangle any time soon.  Behavior, not words, are what matter in dealing with a pwBPD (and anyone else either, actually).  My ex also told me so many things that are completely irreconcilable with her behavior.  I kept hanging on the words, and ignoring the behavior.  I can't do that in the future.  I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, of course.  You've said as much yourself.  I suppose I'm reinforcing it for my own sake as much as yours.  It is very hard to accept that all these wonderful words are rather empty.  Perhaps our pwBPD mean it at the time, but they can't seem to find the ability to follow through.  Or maybe their emotions just change that quickly.  I'm not sure.  Much of what went on inside my ex's head is still a mystery to me, despite how well I came to know her.  There were some walls that I was never able to get through - never able to get to the core of her.  Into the inner sanctum of her mind.  Perhaps, that's because there isn't one.  Many experts in BPD claim that pwBPD don't have a fully formed sense of self.  That is something I can't fully envision, but perhaps that explains why we can't ever seem to fully understand and know our exes.  Just typing that makes me very sad.

Deciding to block your ex and go NC is a decision only you can make.  I apologize if you felt that I was pressuring you to do something you really don't want to do.  You have every right to decide what you feel is best for you.  I was encouraging you to go NC, because that is the overwhelming advice on this forum.  I know it is a brutal decision to have to make.  In all honestly, I am not sure I would be able to cut my ex completely off if she was still communicating with me.  My situation is considerably easier than yours.  I have clearly been split black and am receiving the total silence treatment.  I suppose that may last forever.  I don't know.  None of this makes a bit of sense, anyway, and I need to just accept it that way it is.  Radical acceptance.

Keep posting, In_n_Out.  I feel a certain bond with you and Pecator and others here who are going through very similar sorts of experiences.  It helps to know that I'm not alone.  It is crazy how similar some of our experiences have been.  What a vile disorder BPD is!  I can't hardly think of a more insidious disease.  So much pointless suffering.  If this experience has taught me anything about this world, it is how critical it is that every child feel safe and loved and validated.

[In_n_Out]

I'm actually really good with it and that's because we've done the dramatic "last goodbye" a half dozen times already.  That and I realize that the BPD notwithstanding, she has ONE main objective in life right now and that is to get married.  She's never been married and she has this dream of a wedding where her dad walks her down the aisle.  He's aging and she has the HUGE clock ticking.  She doesn't really care too much with whom it is; it would of been me but I burned my *opportunity* when I had invalidated her precious little emotions one too many times so she quickly jumped to the next guy.  The BPD in her has accelerated that r/s and she was ready, set, go to marry him when thoughts of me popped back in to her head.  Her actions though will never match her words.  She quit on our r/s and cheated on me because she felt that we would never get married (we had become unengaged when she demonstrated that she isn't stable enough to hold a job and be responsible).  But now she has doubts about this guy because he is already questioning her sanity so she's a lost little child.  However, at the moment, he's her best shot for getting married so she will sacrifice her body, her emotions and her love to keep him reeled in just to see if he will stick around long enough (or if she can stick around long enough) to get married. 

There is no rationalizing with her (them).  Try as hard as I did to convince her to take the time to date people and some day find the right guy, fall in love gently and then move towards wedding plans; all while working on herself to get the therapy that she knows she needs... . that all falls on deaf ears because she is a woman on a mission to secure a man.  He has a POS house in a crappy neighborhood that she will readily admit that she doesn't care for; BUT it's A house and so she pictures herself putting her special little touches on it and perhaps, just perhaps it would be an ok house.  AND maybe, despite being 43 with various "female" issues, just perhaps she could get pregnant and have a child; something that I'm beyond wanting to do (been there, done that as I approach 50).  So love me as she may (or says she does), I could not be the one that she marries because of those reasons.

So in her brilliant little mind, she actually thinks that she can date and probably marry my replacement and if/when it fails, she can say "well, I've been married so NOW I can go to the man that I love and he said that he'll be there waiting for me".  She actually tried to justify that last night.

So while I haven't blocked her text/phone as of yet; I am determined to read anything that she sends and filter out the "I will always love you's" and read past the BS and have a laugh- but I will refuse to respond.  Why?  Because I still do care for her very much and I don't want to see her get hurt, despite the fact that her actions have hurt me and if my replacement knew about the emotional cheating that she's been doing, it would hurt him as well.  I honestly don't think that she really realizes that.  It's all about the mission and the BPD in her has the blinders on and has her programmed to believe that it is all about, and only about her emotions and what she wants.

I'm actually very good with this all right now.  Yeah, I'll hurt at times, I know it. 

I'm hoping to get together with one of my buddies this weekend.  He's a single part-time dad.  His ex-wife had some serious addiction and personality issues herself that we had talked about years ago so while he knows generally that I'm going through a messy breakup, he doesn't know the behind the scenes stuff.  But we will talk about that and have a few laughs over it all. 

[In_n_Out]

So I didn't get the usual morning text so I figured that this was it (ok, I know, it's not, and it isn't).  Just got her lunch break text:

I'm sitting at my spot next to the tower... . trying to let go of the Coldplay song that played just before I left for lunch.  I don't know the name of it, but it cuts my heart every time it comes on. And I can't stop it... . I don't hate you.  I love you... . whether you believe that or not.  I pray you never hate me... . I couldn't bare it.

It doesn't address the discussion last night or the past few weeks.  Doesn't validate me or my emotions or even recognize my thoughts on the matter.  So I got to thinking; discussions with her are always like this and you know what, her freakin' dad *warned* me when we first were dating that she was like that.  Of course I could tell right away that she was a "heads in the cloud" type of girl so I brushed off his comment but in really analyzing any discussions with her, I was always the "lead" and any response that she gave was in hyperbole or almost as if she were giving a soliloquy and I'm not even in the room; just like that text, as if she's reminding herself or convincing herself or what... . I'm not sure.  I asked her recently if she feels like she sees herself outside of her body and the reply was "no, I don't sense myself outside of my body like your BPD books say".  heh, oops! 

Anyhow, I didn't reply and won't.  I'll see how "intense" her messaging gets tonight, tomorrow and perhaps the next day.  I'm going to go back and analyze past text messages and emails and see if she ever actually addresses anything (besides pointing out fault with *my* behavior).  Actually, I will give her some credit; she does say of herself that she's a "pain in the a$$" and "difficult", "emotional" and a few other things so as we've established, she's very aware but just can't do anything about it.

Saga continues for a bit longer folks, grab some popcorn... . I'll keep you all posted. 

[maxsterling]

Interesting message from her.  Typical of what I see with my BPDgf.  Totally black/white (love/hate). See, she doesn't understand that you distancing yourself means you hate her.  And she doesn't understand that you can love her but not want to be with her.  There is absolutely no in-between in her mind - one either is completely infatuated, or completely hates.  I think your ex's text illustrates the error completely - you aren't responding, so that must mean you hate her. 

I've known my GF for just over a year.  And from what I have observed and what I know about her past, it seems your ex and my GF (and probably most BPD) have the same issue regarding doing things for themselves.  The healthy way to go about life is to do things to better yourself, and let other things fall in place around that.  For example, my ideas on dating have always been to be happy with myself first, be comfortable with me, love me, and then when things happen romantically, they happen.  I'm not dependent on those romantic things for my ultimate happiness.  My GF seems to have other approaches - men (and at times women) were a means to get what she wanted to make her happy (really less unhappy).  To this point in her life, it sounds like she's never been able to take more than a few months to herself to just work on herself.  She even told me the other day that her life has been chasing one thing after another, always to be disappointed.  Her long time friends think she is doing that now.  Your ex has the same issue - she wants marriage, possibly a child, feels time is running out, and her method of chasing hasn't paid off. So rather than solve her issue, she just decides to chase in a different direction.  But really, if she could learn to soothe herself, none of those other things would matter too much, and eventually the marriage/house thing could come for her. 

It's just so sad.  BPDs just seem to dig their own grave over and over.  They may realize they are in a hole, but the BPD in them tells them to dig the hole deeper in order to find their way out. 

[In_n_Out]

I think that you're absolutely correct in your assessment Max.  My ex's *only* ambition is to find a man that will take care of her.  The job that she has is only a job to pay bills as best she can (and she still needs help with those) so she has no career ambitions and never has (she admits to wanting to be a stay at home mommy and barring having a child, a part time worker at most while being supported by a husband), only a few friends, a cat (our cat), and her hobbies (gardening, photography when her camera isn't in hawk and writing (on facebook)).  

The kicker and what really ramps up my "rescue her" mode is her saying things like "you've taught me so much" and "I thank God for you" yet I turn blue in the face trying to "help" her to be more ambitious and to *date* properly and that there is no ticking time clock over her head and so on and so on but yes, I finally realize that it's not for me to *fix* her and even my *advice* will go mostly unheeded because that's just the way she's wired.

I mean it really is a full time job trying to care for these people; dancing around their emotions, having to self-filter everything you say and how you say it, trying to motivate them to stop posting selfies on facebook and perhaps do something for career enhancement.  It is really like watching an adult 5 yr old, isn't it?

[maxsterling]

The job that she has is only a job to pay bills as best she can (and she still needs help with those) so she has no career ambitions and never has (she admits to wanting to be a stay at home mommy and barring having a child, a part time worker at most while being supported by a husband), only a few friends, a cat (our cat), and her hobbies (gardening, photography when her camera isn't in hawk and writing (on facebook)).  

 

Well, at least she has hobbies.  Does she do these on her own, or are these hobbies she only does to pass the time or for the means of being social?  If I asked my girlfriend what she does for fun - it's an empty list.  Or, if I asked her what she wanted to do with her life career wise, also an empty list.  Of course, this wasn't the case when I met her.  A year ago, she was a teacher wanting to re-locate to my city and teach children.  it was her passion!  Of course, her previous job overseas was prestigious and rewarding (in reality, she hated it and was about to be fired).  She also liked to scuba dive (but that was just a means for her to chase men and give her something to do).  Same goes with the collage art she did, and her interest in films.  All in relation to the people she surrounded herself with.  Since she has been with me, she has shown no interest in any of the above, and only wants to spend time with me.

The kicker and what really ramps up my "rescue her" mode is her saying things like "you've taught me so much" and "I thank God for you" yet I turn blue in the face trying to "help" her to be more ambitious and to *date* properly and that there is no ticking time clock over her head and so on and so on but yes, I finally realize that it's not for me to *fix* her and even my *advice* will go mostly unheeded because that's just the way she's wired.

 

My guess is that you aren't the type of person that really wants to rescue her, or anyone else.  It's not like you seek out people to rescue because it gives you some kind of pleasure.  Am I right?  That's the way I am.  I'd prefer she take care of herself, and learn to take care of herself on her own.  I don't mind supporting her, but I don't want to do it for her.  I'm not a true codependent in that I don't want to be in this arrangement, I just don't know how to extract myself.  I also get moved by her statements, "You are my favorite;"  "I don't know what would happen if I didn't have you;"  "you saved my life."  That all sounds sweet, but add the BPD knowledge, and that's all very troubling.  I'm already trying to extract myself from feeling that her life is my responsibility, and these types of statements only send me backwards.  [/quote]

 It is really like watching an adult 5 yr old, isn't it?

Yep.  I tend to think the behavior is more of an early teenager mentality because she is so combative and because she expects everyone around her to simply make the world the way she wants it.  I would feel so much more secure about the future of this r/s if she could just find one thing she likes to do without me, and pursue it and stick with it for no other reason than it makes her happy.  I don't care if it is a job, a hobby, a friendship, or a TV show.  Just something that tells me who she is and what she likes.  How do I build a future with her when it seems like she changes what she likes to do every few months?

[In_n_Out]

Ok, this is just going to blow your all's mind.  Am I boring you with all this drama yet?  Sorry if I am and I'm sorry for you guys that didn't get closure with your expwBPD but this is as close to closure as one can get tonight.  Not trying to rub it in any of your all's faces... .

So I had a good day.  Sure, she would cross my mind but no sadness.  Just a shake of the head and a mumble of "my God what a mess she is!".  I came home, napped and then went to the gym as I do every night.  The workout was going good - chest and triceps night.  I was feeling strong and put up 385 on the bench and even snapped a pic for my son who was AWOL from the gym tonight:



I think that I mentioned that I'm in to bodybuilding and all that went to the wayside with this r/s and so it's good to be getting back to the levels that I was at previously.  Still a long ways to go but the improvements have been tremendous.  It's amazing how the body 'remembers' previous fitness levels so it's not like I'm starting brand new.  Anyways... .

So I'm over doing some flat bench fly's.  I have my headphones on and I'm rockin' a good workout when suddenly I smell *her* perfume that she always wears.  I sat up, dropped the dumbbells and instinctively muttered "f***!".  I turned around and my ex was standing there, 10 ft away.  She *never* works out in the gym and she wasn't there to do so tonight.  She was in her street clothes.  She often would just show up at the gym while I was working out because, well you all know how they fear that you're leaving them if gone too long. 

So I walk over to her and she has the sad puppy dog look on her face.  I'm in a great mood though; hell, a nearly 50 yr old just put up 385 on the bench so I'm feeling good.  She says "I'm sorry to bother you at the gym.  This is all very impressive (touching my arm).  I sat in my car for 15 minutes debating on whether I should reach out to you.  Whether I should come in or just text you but I didn't think that you would respond" (she's right).  I told her how just smelling her perfume freaked me out and I laughed to reassure her that it was "ok".  Very weird to just be standing there like that but it's ok.  I don't hate the woman.  So we have some small talk and I'm getting in my sets in between.  She says "I have two problems (only two?).  One is a small one and the other is bigger".  Ok, what's the small problem?  "I heard my Christmas ornaments fall over in the attic and I'm afraid that they're on the stair thing (attic access) and they'll all fall and break.  I can't reach them.".  Ok, so are you asking me if I will help you get those down for you?  "Yes, if it's not an inconvenience".  I see.  What's the 'big' problem?  "Everything else".  That I can't help you with.  "I know".

So I say that I'll be done working out at 8:30 and I can come over and help with that little problem.  I'm texting my buddy that I recently connected with (who just so happens to have an ex-wife that is bipolar) and he's warning me "don't do it, you need to go NC, you just need to take 6 mos of you time, no dating, etc, etc".  I think about it and I'm thinking he's absolutely right.  I can't be her rescuer any longer.  So I text her and say "I'm sorry but I don't think that it's appropriate that I go over to your house.  I am and will be a friend for you, but I don't feel comfortable going over to your house any longer.  <He/replacement> is taller than me, surly he can help you with this problem.  You chose him to be in your life and to have a r/s with so he needs to be the one to come help you from now on, ok?".  She replied "but I have something else that I want to tell you".  I told her that she can meet in the parking lot at the gym and we can talk.

So she shows up and walks towards my car and just stands in the middle of the parking.  Time to validate her so I walk over and hug her and tell her that it's ok.  She gets in my car and then she starts the waif version of emotionally dysregulating.  She says "remember how you said that you liked to text me during the day to tell me little things that you see or do?".  Yes.  "well today I felt that void of not hearing from you".  (good, worked as intended).  "I have to say this and I don't want it to come out wrong."  Ok, I'm listening to you.  "See, there, you're starting it already".  See, you're starting it already.  You feel my wall go up because now I am immediately going on the defense with your warning and that trips you and your wall goes up and this is how we used to always have arguments.  I want you to know that I am listening to you because I want to hear what you have to say but yes, I am guarded right now.  That is *my* emotion and I hope that you can validate that.  "yes, I can validate that.  What I wanted to say was that I was always afraid that you might go off on me.  You're such a calm person and you have that calm way about you and even though you never raised a hand to me, never grabbed me nor pushed me, I just always felt that you could explode one day".  (ok, this is really a test to see my response because she knows that I would never do any such thing to hurt her.  I never raised my voice to the woman).  "I understand that you have a fear of that.  I'm a big guy and I look intimidating.  I get that.  It's understandable that you would feel afraid should I somehow come at you".  (validate, validate, validate but this time it's not working).  "See, you're boxing me in and you're using your tactics that you've read about.  Did you have a therapy session today?".  (wow, throwing out all of the personal attacks just trying her damndest to set me off but inside I'm actually laughing... . this is really comical to me!).  "I'm not boxing, analyzing or doing anything but listening to you and understanding your emotions".  I reached out for her hand and she pulls it away but then relents.  She's crying.  I continue "I understand if you need to justify a reason why you must leave me.  Go ahead and get out all of these fears and emotions that you have if you must, I'm ok with that.  I'm not going to enter an argument with you over it because to be honest, all that I hear is the hurtful words that you said to me last night and that was when I asked if we could work things out you said 'I'd have to want to do that'.  So you see, you can say whatever it is that you like right now because I couldn't be hurt any more than those words that you spoke and the actions that you have taken since towards the end of our r/s".  (BOOM!). 

She paused, started bawling.  I lean over and hug her.  She grabs me tightly.  "I want to be a friend for you.  You must be very confused over your feelings but do you perhaps agree that your sole ambition right now is finding someone that will take care of you instead of working to become self-sufficient?".  Silence but still hugging me.  "I do love you and that will not fade.  You'll always have a piece of my heart but it's friends for us and that's all."  She's crying and some other validating points were made and I concluded it with "see, we can talk and come to some resolution now without it blowing up in to a big argument.  So the books have helped.  I have learned to be a better communicator for you.  Now let's go fix that little mess that you have in your attic".

So I followed her over to her house and sure enough, she had all of her totes of decorations fallen over on to the stairway access.  A couple of pieces fell and broke but I was able to get the rest down and then I told her that it's not good to stack things next to the stairway like that.  I retrieved an old piece of my plywood from woodworking projects out of her garage and put it down away from the stairs and relocating all of the stuff.  I then said that I need to go, it's late.  She ran up and give me a hug, sobbing again.  I told her that it's ok, that she'll be ok.  I'm ok.  Everything will be ok.  I walked out to my car with her standing on her porch.  I started my engine and said "I'll see you around".  She ran over to the car, reached in for another hug and said "thank you".  I said it's ok, glad that nothing more got broken and she said "no, I mean 'thank you!'".  Sure, that's what friends are for, right?  I drove off and surprisingly no string of texts from her about "love you this, love you that".  She knows that I'm moving on. 

I'll remain silent on the texting again tomorrow.  If she does start with the "I love you's" my response is going to be "I'm sorry but all that I hear is 'I'd have to want to do that'.  I won't hear anything else unless you say that you're sorry and want to get help for yourself and want to work on yourself and you prove to me that you will do that.  Otherwise, that is all that I'm hearing from you now". 

I feel great, that was perfect closure.  Sure, I'll be sad when the day comes that she is out of my life completely and for good but for now, if she wants to say 'hello' and (even as eerie as it is) wants to come stare at me during a workout, then hey, I'm cool with that.  No way I could want to enter a r/s with her again.  I was drained just going through that little emotional dysregulation episode and I now see how draining the years of that crap was for me.  No wonder all that I could do was eat, sleep and go to work with no time for friends, working out, my kids... . that is a full time caretakers position and honestly, it doesn't even pay that well. 

[goldylamont]

wow, that was a great post I/O! Loved it! I'm always wondering what my response will be when I run into my ex (she moved in a few houses down from me... . oddly, a year after we broke up and NC). Each day I'm pulling away from the issue and becoming more confident. But I really love how you handled this situation. Cool like tha Fonz!

[In_n_Out]

Thanks. 

What made it comical, but still difficult to deal with, was the very predictability of it.  When she said that she had something to tell me, my optimism went up but then she went on the attack with her emotional dysregulation.  I broke down what went on though as it was happening and was able to laugh inside (seriously!) while trying to bring her back down to her baseline:

1. The night before I admit it but I was basically begging her to reconsider for the last time.  She denied me that opportunity.

2. So I pulled away.  No texting during the day like she's been used to.

3. She feels me pulling away so she shows up at the gym.  In her mind, the sparks will fly and we'll go right back to this mode where she feels loved and needed by me on the in-between breaks with my replacement (triangulation).

4. I think about it and tell her, "no, you need to have your bf do that for you.  I am not comfortable going to your house to do it".  I'm pulling away again.  She feels that big ole' abandonment thing and because she's the waif type, she's got inward anger (depression) and it needs to release.

5.  We have the talk in the car and that anger comes out in the form of a personal attack "well I always felt that you could of gone off on me at any time".  No she didn't but she had just witnessed me working out and yes, I was lifting some fairly heavy weights and yes, I'm a pretty big guy so an on the spur attack was easy to predict... . "this guy could lift me with one hand and what he could do with me in that case is painful to think about"... . so that was her anger release.

If I was a street corner performer that made those little balloon animals and she had come to witness me doing those, her attack very well would of been "I was always afraid that you would pop a balloon next to my ear and I would go deaf forever". 

I mean the emotional level of that thought process is that of a young child.  It really is.  I see that now.  Her ability to handle and accept emotions have only developed to a certain point; that of a young girl. 

So I'm going to modify my response to her via text should she text me and that will be something along the lines of "<name>, I believe you when you say that you love me, and I have love for you as well but honestly, a friendship is all that we can have because of some choices that have been made.  As a friend, the best thing that I can offer you is if you were to say to me 'I know that there is something emotionally that needs work.  I understand that I have difficulties in controlling those emotions and that because of my emotions, my thought process and judgement becomes affected.  I know that I need help and I would like for you to help me because I'm afraid that I won't commit to doing it myself'.  You would then need to prove to me with your actions that you are committed to working with someone that is trained to help people get a better handle on their emotional responses.  Unless or until you say that, all that I will hear from you is 'I'd have to want to do that' and thus I will say to you again, <he> is the one that you need to turn to now as that is your choice that you've made."

[cosmonaut]

Way to go on setting and enforcing your boundaries, In_n_Out.     I think you've been handling the situation very well.  You've been gentle and validating, but also firm.  I'm realizing that this is how one has to deal with a pwBPD.  I've been reading that pwBPD need firm boundaries and actually respect you for it.  My T, who has experience in working with pwBPD, told me that pwBPD know you really love them when you can do that.  They need a parent - something they were denied in childhood.

On that same note, I understand your frustration about feeling like you are often babysitting a child in the relationship.  In retrospect, I can see that so much in my own relationship with my ex.  I didn't see it in those terms at the time, but I often was beside myself with frustration at how every little thing had to be such an ordeal.  Little things like making phone calls, paying bills, going to the store.  It's exhausting.  It was a full-time job taking care of her, as you said.  Her physical, and especially her emotional needs, were endless.  Like your ex, my ex was also very much a waif.  I didn't understand at the time that she really needed a parent figure to direct her and motivate her - I knew nothing about BPD.  I kept trying to get her to be more independent and pull herself up, and that, as you can imagine, went nowhere (yes, I wanted to "fix" her).  It just made things worse.  Despite all that, I still miss her terribly.  I do love her, and I can't deny that a part of me really needed to be needed.  Some of my core needs were definitely being met in our relationship.

Anyway, congrats again on achieving a degree of closure from your ex.  That is indeed a rare prize from a pwBPD.  You seem to be handling things very well.  Keep checking in a letting us know how you're doing.

[maxsterling]

In_n_out - today, you are my hero.  Seriously.  I'm glad you stood firm to this madness.  You will be better off in the long run, and she will be better off in the long run.  I can only hope to have the same clarity and strength with my GF some day to enforce needed boundaries.

Part of me just feel sad for your ex, though.  I really hope she can pull herself together, get the help she needs, and see the ways her behavior is standing in the way of healthy relationships.

[In_n_Out]

Yeah, this does suck for her and I feel so bad for her. I mean, read this lunchtime text that she sent:

I'm sorry... . so sorry for everything. For not being who and what I should have for u and for us and for me. Very sad, too.  Sick to my stomach sad. I will get professional help to brake (sic) the patterns... . I'm a big ball of hurt and anxiety... . I feel trapped... . in myself, circumstances, choices made. I tell you this not for you to fix it ... but so you know this is very hard for me. And I want to run. But I would only be running from myself. All the more reason to sell (? - typo, perhaps should be 'get' counseling asap.  That's all for now. You are on a good path. Let nothing or no one stop you. Love always, too"

Ugh, I mean pull on the heart strings!  I really feel for her and I know inside that she feels like crap for it all.  There's just no way to convince her that she's not as "stuck" as she thinks that she is.  She mentioned last night that she has not confided any of this to anybody and that she has nobody to talk to, so it's a pwBPD trying to solve the mess that she's gotten in all by herself.  I tried to tell her that <him> and his family are going to be hurt a lot more the longer the charade goes on before she does burst the bubble... . if that should happen (validation)... . and best to just be open up front.  Let <him> know that you're questioning yourself, the r/s and that you know that you need to get some help getting over your past r/s.  Something like that, anything, but what all that she can see is how stressful it would be to walk away now and so she is going to "punish" herself and just stay the course, wherever or whatever that course will be (married to 'Eeyore' as she calls him). 

Now, the other side of me has to pick all of this apart and she could be blowing smoke and playing me the fool all awhile she's got him hoisted on the pedestal and that very well could be but I'm going to go on instinct and say no, she really is hurting and she knows that she screwed up by bailing on us much too soon.

I did let her know however that it had to happen.  This was before I knew about BPD and maybe I would of figured it all out while still together but if not, we would of just "stayed the course" and things would of gotten miserable to the point that I'd be seeking a divorce (had we gotten married as planned). It took us breaking up for me to discover many new things about myself and I pray that she uses this as her "rock bottom" moment and does get that help.  I'm moving on.  I can't sit and wait to see if she gets the courage to worry about herself by unraveling the mess that she's in AND at the same time getting therapy.  I would be a fool to do so.  I'll keep on her though about the therapy.  Otherwise, she'll get in a "comfort zone", especially if <he> releases all of his boundaries to try and keep her happy and she won't do anything to get help.  We shall see, right? 

[maxsterling]

Seems the most frustrating and heartbreaking pwBPD is the one who knows they have work to do, but it's clear he/she lacks the tools or the foundation from where to start.  It's like they live in a universe where the laws of physics don't add up the same way, and 2+2 does not equal 4.  They know something is wrong, they know they want to fix it, but the solutions that are obvious to you and me just may not be physically possible in their brain.  It's just so heartbreaking to see, because you know their pattern will repeat, and they know it on some level, but still do it. 

If you can, perhaps the best role is as a supportive friend, with contact every few weeks.  That assumes you are strong enough to keep distance boundaries, and that assumes she is comfortable enough with that to not pine for more and not paint you black.  I bet she feels like she has nobody consistent now, and is reaching out to you.  And maybe you can keep the friendship conversations about how she is doing, her goals in life, how you are doing, etc, and avoid topics relating to relationships.  Let her find her own solutions to these issues, because you very well know the more she leans on you, the less she will take care of herself.  Giving her any kind of ear to her relationship problems only makes her core problem worse. 

And by all means, detach, and move on yourself.  Go on with your life, and try to avoid even having her in a "maybe someday" category.  If she is ever in that "maybe someday" category, that's unhealthy for you, and unhealthy for any future relationships you find yourself in.  If you have hopes or expectations that she changes and come back to you - probably best to go the NC route.   Just my opinion, of course.  Any path seems like it would take tremendous strength. 

[In_n_Out]

Thanks again Max,

I had a good workout last night with no odd visits.  No texts, no phone calls, no emails.  Thursday is her Friday from work so she probably spent the night with my replacement and you know what?  I'm good with that.  Coming out of the FOG this morning and I said to myself, "I/O, she isn't 'stuck' doing something that she doesn't want to do with a guy that she doesn't want to be with because she's still in love with you... . no, she's doing *exactly* what she *wants* to do because she has shown no sign of wanting to do something differently".  And that's true.  She's a professional at playing the victim card... . "I can't love him because I still love you... . ".  Well B/S because you have made zero attempt at working on herself.  She talks the game of doing so but until or unless I have proof that she's doing one single thing for herself other than finding the next source of financial/emotional/sexual "income" then why waste my effort?  

I'm at a point at this moment that I don't need NC.  Again, I don't hate the woman and I have some pity that she has the disorder but *at the moment* I'm strong enough to realize that anything beyond a friendship with her is a big drain on ME.  Now if I start to get the twinge of "I miss her.  She used to do this... . and she's done that... . and she said this... . " then I will need to block her for my own protection.

I have a great support system now.  If you're not religious, then count it up to "fate" but I truly believe that God put a good friend of mine back in to my life; a buddy that divorced 7 years ago from a pwBipolar and he hasn't had a serious gf since because he was so devastated from the ordeal.  Now I'm not looking to go in to "hermit mode" but he's got a great point in being firm that I work on ME for a good while before throwing it out there on the line again.  If someone comes along per chance and there's a SLOW dating cycle that ensues, great.  Otherwise, it's work on ME time fellas.  

Edit:  Somebody just posted something on facebook that I will adopt as my motto:

"Never push a loyal person to the point where they no longer care".  Very nice.

[In_n_Out]

Well put my nose in the corner because I was a bad boy.

I had a date tonight.  Kind of a spur of the moment thing.  An attractive girl that is 15 yrs my junior messaged me and we wound up on a date.  Went out to a nice dinner.  She's a pretty girl but I guess the age or something wasn't working for her about me.  Got the "oh, that's my friend texting.  She said that she may need a ride and would text only if she couldn't find another".  You know the routine.  I've used it myself actually.  So the date ended after only a couple of hours and it was only 10 p.m.

Came home and that triggered thoughts of the ex.  Oh yes, trying to date much too soon.  She had come over last night (the ex that is) and she was an emotional mess.  She had been at her girlfriends house (she says) watching sad movies drinking wine.  She wasn't drunk but she's started to drink wine every night to numb the pain and her drinking is not good (we know why). Things started out ok, hugging in my driveway but then she started to dysregulate emotionally.  I couldn't take it so I told her a semi-truth about me and one of my good friends who happens to be an attractive female that my ex is quite jealous of.  Something that involved me and her doing something together. That set her off and she left with the fake smile that she wears when she's hurting inside but doesn't want others to know (but I know).  She was crying inside.  I know, you're asking "why are you doing this again after what you just posted?".  You're asking me?   

So I sent her a text this morning seeing if she wanted to meet me at the park for a walk.  She replied that she can't do this any more and to go have a good time with <friend> and that she's a hypocrit for even getting jealous and she knows that.  "Go have fun and be free".  Sort of a farewell text.  I sent a couple of replies but she didn't respond.  My jog in the park was full of "what a screwed up chick!".  You know the routine.

So, busted date and I'm sitting home and now I'm suddenly sad.  I shouldn't of done it but I sent the ex a text; something to the effect of "I'm feeling lost, numb.  Like I've lost my best friend".  Well two texts later the third one says "I'm here.  At your door".  Well, a couple of hours in the bedroom and I just followed her to make sure that she made it.  She had just poured a glass of wine when my text came (so she says).

She had the pendulum swinging in full effect tonight.  She'd go from me to him, him to me.  "I wished that would of done more of this (foreplay)".  Won't go in to details obviously but the chat afterwards was about her being "f'd up" (emotionally).  "I blew it".  "I'm no good".   All the stuff that I've read about where they feel like they are broken.  You can't say "you're not broken"; that invalidates their feeling. Silly stuff that you have to actually think so hard for the proper response.  "Seems that you feel like things are a mess for you." 

She talked about this damn cruise and how she and <his> family all got together to go over the itinerary, and how she was had all these mixed feelings between that and me.  She said that they all got in his truck (the 4 of them) to see if they'll be able to make the long drive to the port of departure.  She said that she freaked out (clostrophobia) and panicked and so now they're going to rent a car because of it (and she feels bad for that).  You can't reason with them though "we're going through all of this; you're numbing your pain with alcohol and crying yourself to sleep every night thinking of me and 'what if we could be back together' because you're afraid of letting them down if you back out of a damn cruise?".  "What will they think when you leave him some time after the cruise (like I know that she will)... . that you used them to get a cruise".  No reply.  She knows I'm right but it doesn't quite "register". 

So part of me says, if she wants to come over for a roll... . works perfectly for me.  Let him handle the financial burdon and let him babysit her emotions.  But I'm not that kind of guy so yeah, I feel bad for it.  He's probably a nice guy but he just has no idea.  Well, according to her, he knows *something* is amiss with her but he's sucked in like we all were/are.  Like I still am.  I'm as bad as she is though.  As much as I know the right thing to do... . go NC and RUN... . it won't "register" with me.  Just like it all won't register with her though she knows the right answer as well (RUN from both of us and to nobody would be her best solution).  I thought earlier today when I was ticked about not getting a reply; "she is toxic for me.  She's not healthy physically (doesn't work out, doesn't eat), emotionally (duh), mentally, spiritually.  There's nothing 'healthy' about her".  Yet it won't "register" with me.  Or I can't go.  Co-dependence.  FOG.  FOO.  Whatever you want to say about it. 

Round and round it goes, where it stops... . nobody knows.

[In_n_Out]

Well, I had been holding on.  We have spent time together each night and all of last weekend.  Yesterday though, her "mood" changed.  She was work and her text messages went from being very loving to being very cordial so it was obvious that she had spoken to my replacement recently.  The change is so obvious when she's done that.  When I first see her each night, she won't let me kiss her nor hold hands with her.  By the end of the night, we're making out.  So she's coming from just having had a talk with him (and sure, she feels guilt) to then not giving a damn about him and just living in the moment.

Well after work yesterday she stopped by. We spent 40 minutes together at a store and she was "too tired" from work.  So she went home but text and called because the cat was stuck in the tree.  I thought that she was wanting me to come over, but again "too tired".  That was about 11:00 and so I told her that I was a bit disappointed because Thursday is her Friday night and I'm on vacation so we could of done something together but that I understood.

I sent her a text last night while she slept; "As you awake to this beautiful day, feel that you are loved because I do love you so dearly". 

I was at the gym this morning and she sent a text "Thank you I/O.  Do something special for you today and I will do the same. Always, no matter. Very much."

So that tells me that she's got plans to not see me today and that hurts because we could share the day together.  Long story short, I told her that she "emptied my love bucket and to go have a good day".  I stopped responding to her "how did I empty your love bucket?".  She showed up at the gym with tears in her eyes.  I was distant.  I don't remember what I said exactly but I do recall saying that I just can't do the "push-pull" thing any more.  She kissed me and left.

She sent a text later "I'm so sorry... . for everything. You deserve a whole healed heart... . I love you so much. I know my actions may not seem to reflect this... but I do. I'm so weary... . just trying to keep on keeping on.  I have to go. Please... . please have a good day... . and know that I carry you in my heart. I have to honor a commitment I made for today... . and won't be home til tonight. I will look up at the stars and smile for u.".

I haven't heard from her since.

So after a month of seeing her every night/day but one; all the "I love you so much".  The other night her reading the book on "Loving Someone with BPD" and asking for me to order her a copy.  Her asking what she could do to get out of her "situation" (with him) and now she's spent the day/evening with him.  Sure, she's telling him all the same stuff that she's been telling me and he's up on that pedestal tonight. 

I keep the texting line of communication open only until I hear from her again (tonight, probably tomorrow, maybe never) so that I can say simply that there's nothing to discuss really.  Her decision is clear and for my healing to begin I would like to have a few items back and I'll return hers and then I will need to move on; without any further communication.

A real pisser.  We were "that" close... . or so she made it seem.  But as we know, it's all about her having her emotions feed and what she will sacrifice in order for that to happen.  That's not the type of person that I need in my life- I need to recover my sense of worth and the little bit of pride that I can scrape up off the floor and then go through the ultimate heartache but eventual healing.

Thanks to all that participated in this thread.  I'll hang around over in the "Leaving" board mostly but will be curious to see how others are fairing here in this board. 

I think that the most telling thing about the "success" rate with pwBPD is the "success" stories thread... . all of 5 pages while there's 1000's of other pages about the headache, heartache and hurt that a pwBPD has caused them.  Not a very good ratio for those still hoping.

[cosmonaut]

I've been following your story, I/O, and I'm actually very sad that it has concluded this way.  I was hoping that things would somehow work out.  You certainly made every effort to accomplish that.  I'm sorry, man.  I know you tried.  She's just able to have a healthy, mature relationship.  She's just not ready to face her demons.  You gave it your all and there's no shame in that.

I think you are so correct that the odds of having a successful relationship with a pwBPD are quite poor.  Ultimately, it's something that we, as nons, have no real control over.  It takes a very special pwBPD to be able to put in the work necessary to achieve the stability for a relationship to be sustained.  It's hard going, and my hat's off to any pwBPD that can take that road.

Keep posting and let us know how you're doing.  I'm trying to detach myself.  It's very hard.  Maybe the hardest thing I've ever done.  Hang in there, man.  Lots of stories here of people that are much happier on the other side of this.  We'll get there too.

[In_n_Out]

They just don't consider others feelings at all, do they?

Text just came in:

"Baby?"  no reply

"Where are you?"  no reply

"You're probably out. I hope you're smiling... . "  This I had to reply to "I am neither".

"I'm headed home and promise to look up at the stars and smile for you."

Are you kidding me?  My replies:

There's no need, please don't.  I mean really.  You spend the day with my replacement and a text is supposed to make it OK for me?  I've been in agony all day.

"No... . I understand.  I'll leave you alone... . I'm sorry"

Me:

Is it wrong for me to be upset after the incredible month that we've spent together and all that was said and done?  And you're telling me one thing and no doubt him another.  Let's just make arrangements (so swap possessions held).  You didn't think that this would happen or you just didn't care? Didn't care at all what I would be going through.  What a let down!

----

Am I totally over-reacting here?  If you've read all the other messages, you know what's been said and done.  I don't think that I'm over-reacting.  Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Pecator]

Damn I/O,

I shared cosmo's hope following your story. I have a special akin to you both as I think we share similar situations.

I have begun copying and pasting things I find helpful here into a document so I can refer to them quickly when I am down. You have many quotes there.

While similar, we are not exact. I would love if my ex would allow even a single conversation. As messed up as it all is, I would rather have false platitudes than silence. What a messed up disorder this is.

You are most definitely not overreacting. In a normal relationship, you would most definitely be under-reacting! However, BPD is so F'ed.

I humbly remind you of something you already know. She will not hear what you said the way you are saying it.

"baby" and "I hope you are smiling" She just doesn't get it. In her world that somehow makes sense.

Even if your words do get through and touches some real part of her, it won't last long and her coping mechanisms will take over. She will detach from your feelings and rationalize it irrationally.

"I understand. I'll leave you alone…I'm sorry." Lots of "I" statements here. If she meant it, there would be more focus on your feelings and "we" statements.

pwBPD just don't seem to be able to connect in emotionally difficult ways. They seem to have walls to guard them from uneasy emotions. So your last text, most definitely not overreacting. But my guess is that it won't be heard.

If that is where you are at, head over to the "leaving" side. I have been dipping my toe there as well. It would be nice to be able to follow a trail blazer like you!

Peace in wherever your path takes you

[an0ught]

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