Scratching my head again

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

The library says they have it but checked out.  I had been waiting for it to be returned, but so far, no dice (since I know how hard dealing with a pwBPD is, I won't fault someone for keeping it too long:) ).  I can afford the 10 bucks now - it's just a matter of going to the store to buy it (not sure if I want to order it, because that may get questions from her when she sees the package at the house).

[maxsterling]

The library says they have it but checked out.  I had been waiting for it to be returned, but so far, no dice (since I know how hard dealing with a pwBPD is, I won't fault someone for keeping it too long:) ).  I can afford the 10 bucks now - it's just a matter of going to the store to buy it (not sure if I want to order it, because that may get questions from her when she sees the package at the house).

[SweetCharlotte]

Watch what you are saying about maxsterling's wife. [... . ] And max, what helps here is if you accept that this is how your wife is right now.

[... . ]

Validate how she is feeling.

Unless I have missed something lately, max and his gf are not married. His gf pressures him daily for commitment and a baby (she is 38). He wanted to see her make progress before marrying her and starting a family. When she backslides, he feels that he should break up with her (or wishes that he could). This has been going on for over a year. Those are the facts as I've read them and I'll keep my (woman's) opinions and advice out of it because I can see that they would not be welcome.

[NickM]

SC,

Please don't shy away from contributing; would be very good to read a balanced perspective.

Look forward to reading your insights.

[In_n_Out]

SC: yes, PLEASE do post and give any input that you have!  A woman's perspective would be most welcomed as I'm following this thread closely since mine and Max's situations are quite similar.

Max: you can get the Kindle version of "Loving" for $10 and download it today.  There's a free Kindle reader that you can put on your PC, your phone or tablet:

www.amazon.com/Someone-Borderline-Personality-Disorder--Control-ebook/dp/B005JFB3OS/

The paperback version is $12 plus shipping.

I can lend you my copy if want bro.  Mine is dog eared and highlighted to death but still very readable. 

[maxsterling]

SC - yeah, that's a pretty good summary.  From my end, I feel like I get tense and pressured when she starts projecting to the future.  If she could just stay in the present for awhile, I feel better about things, and am happier.   But she is NEVER in the present, at least lately.  The feeling I can describe is a panic - heart racing, thoughts racing, feeling like I just want to escape.  Yesterday, she started off about money again, how she is always broke, will run out of money, how she hates living hand to mouth (I never lived like that before she moved in), how we will never have enough money to get married.  I put a stop to it.  I said "Please trust me.  We will be okay."  And she started up again.  I replied back "I need you to trust me, and do your best about worrying about things that need to be done today."  And she said, "okay, I will try." 

I think that is the approach I will use.  "I know sometimes it is important to plan for the future.  There will be other times to talk about those things. But I need you to focus on what needs to get done today.  It would help me out immensely."  The "I need" is important, I think.

Last night we went to a religious service and I finally met her AA sponsor.  I thought it was a very constructive evening.  Of course, we hadn't even closed the car door before she had something negative to say about the service.  I said that i liked it and felt inspired and moved.  We went to dinner afterwards with her AA sponsor, and at one point while my GF went to the restroom, the sponsor and other women there remarked how much they loved my GF.  I said, "yes, she is awesome, and I wished she would know how awesome she is."  The sponsor agreed, and said that we need to work with her on that.  I think the sponsor saw the exhaustion on my face, and said that if I ever get burnt out i should call her. 

This morning I have a couple of free hours.  Not nearly enough, but it helps.  I fear the normal weekend disregulation coming on. 

[Grey Kitty]

Whups, SC--I did lose track of max's current r/s status. And sorry about what I said--I wasn't trying to push you out of here at all. I was hoping to direct suggestions toward things that max could do (actions and changes he could make) and away from things max couldn't do (actions and changes his gf could make).

I replied back "I need you to trust me, and do your best about worrying about things that need to be done today."  And she said, "okay, I will try." 

I think that is the approach I will use.  "I know sometimes it is important to plan for the future.  There will be other times to talk about those things. But I need you to focus on what needs to get done today.  It would help me out immensely."  The "I need" is important, I think.

I believe you are on the right track here. Especially if it is working better.

One refinement I would suggest is to shift more to your own direct feelings and needs, and less about what you want her to do.

"I need to focus on X, Y, and Z today. I can't deal with the future right now."

Where you said "I need you to focus on... . " that could come off as controlling or invalidating, and pwBPD are often oversensitive to that sort of thing.

Good to hear about her AA sponsor--sounds like a good person and a supporter of both your GF and you.

[NickM]

Max,

No doubt you are a hard worker and a stable provider. You get the job done to ensure things will be okay and she can trust you for that as you have said.

But... .

Didn't she just turn down a job?

It doesn't sound like you're raising concerns into your relationship about financial stability. I wouldn't be surprised if you had those concerns but understand that that's not the biggest problem you need to resolve right now.

If it was, thinking about your shared resources, if money is really the only problem in your relationship... . Who is making the effort here to resolve this problem? Is there a fair balance?

From what we have read, she doesn't seem to be providing much financial support and more than this she is waiting for your direction to ask her to do things around the house. I faced similar things before and I would always imagine I was the party that was out of work and at home... . I'd spend my day ensuring the other party came home to a nice meal and a clean house and every once in a while a little treat for all the effort they are putting in to keep us afloat. Isn't this what you want?

The one thing I realised about my BPD relationship was I found it extremely difficult to relate to the attitudes and behaviours which not only made the actions difficult to tolerate over time but made me feel distant from my exBPD.

I agree with the previous commenter and we have mentioned it before; what do you want in a relationship? How does it feel? What can you bring to it and and what do you get from it?

Hope your weekend is okay Max.

[maxsterling]

One refinement I would suggest is to shift more to your own direct feelings and needs, and less about what you want her to do.

"I need to focus on X, Y, and Z today. I can't deal with the future right now."

Where you said "I need you to focus on... . " that could come off as controlling or invalidating, and pwBPD are often oversensitive to that sort of thing.

Good thought.  The problem is, if I say it like you mentioned, the response I fear (and have gotten) is "See!  you don't even care about our relationship!  It's all about what you and what you want!"  She's always asking me what I want her to do, so I think I am going to try a different approach.  The "focus on me" approach is good for me, but it leaves her really anxious.  An example would be her asking me on Saturday morning, "what are we going to do today?"  And my response, "I don't know, but I have xy and z to do this weekend."  And she responds sadly, "oh. You don't want to spend time with me.  I'm so lonely and have nothing to do.  I hate myself, I'm such a loser."  She seems to be in a better mood if I ask her to do things for me.  I don't like that role, but somehow I think I need to put it on her directly that I need her to change her behavior in order to have a functional r/s.   She really has no clue in this regard, and unless I bring something up, she either thinks things are fine, or thinks that I am hiding things from her.

Nick - those are all excellent points, and that is what is constantly running through my head.  My needs aren't getting met.  I'm still deciding what my needs are and whether I think they could be met in this r/s.  As for the financial stability thing - you are exactly right.  I'm the only person with an income. And she may see it another way, but objectively speaking I am the only one working towards financial stability.  I had it before I met her.  And you are also exactly right in that it seems like a secondary issue right now.  I can keep on the current path for awhile as long as she can accept the current reality.  First and foremost my issue is her extreme depression.  I really think she is teetering on the edge of suicide ideation right now.  She's desperately hurting.  I'm also realizing she is pretty much constantly disregulating now, even though it's not outwardly directed at me.  She describes her day as constant racing thoughts and an inability to focus on today.  The thoughts and emotions are out of control.  It's pretty obvious that I can't have a meaningful discussion about finances or household duties with her feeling so unstable.  I've tried.  And the most success I have had seems to be to simply say "trust me".  If I start to Explain with numbers, that seems to make her more confused (seems to be like a JADE process because I can't explain things in a way that will calm her down).

This weekend was interesting, and rough.  I'll post more when I have the energy.

[In_n_Out]

Max, have you tried this approach (something from the "Loving" book):

Her: "what are we going to do today?"

You: "well there's x, y and z that I thought that we could do together. Do you think that you would prefer to do z (the one you want her to pick) first, or would doing y or x be a better choice to do first you think?".

This way, you're letting her decide but helping her by leading with suggestion.  Instead of saying "pick x, y or z" because we know how hard decisions are for them to make.  The hopes are that *eventually*, you can just say, "pick one" as she begins to learn to make her own decisions.

[seeking balance]

I think the sponsor saw the exhaustion on my face, and said that if I ever get burnt out i should call her. 

This is a glaring boundary violation that I am surprised her sponsor would offer.

Max - I don't remember, but are you in Alanon and do you have a sponsor with that program?

[SweetCharlotte]

My needs aren't getting met.  I'm still deciding what my needs are and whether I think they could be met in this r/s.

In the meantime, you are living with her and getting your sexual needs met. She wants marriage but can't give you an ultimatum and follow through with it like a healthy woman would in this situation. Not that it always works, but when it doesn't work it allows a healthy woman to move on and find a man who may commit to her. In addition, I'm concerned that she is in a cycle of learned helplessness and now refuses to work despite the opportunity because she fears losing her guy if she gains some independence. This is where validation can turn into enablement, and becomes exploitation of a mentally-ill young woman.

My woman's perspective is (first of all, better not to live together without marriage plans in the first place): sometimes, you have to be cruel to be kind. Set her free and get your sexual needs met by someone to whom you feel you can commit. She has a Dad in her life (at first you maintained she had nobody). Release her into his care, or the care of some other family member. Then, if she is able to live independently and you are still unattached, see if you two can have a relationship without co-habitation. Then don't live together until you are ready to marry her.

[maxsterling]

Good advice, I/o.  I've got the book on order  I need to write out all the weird things that happened this weekend, but fist was an instance where I thing the "radical acceptance" thing may have backfired.  All weekend she seemed to sense something was wrong with me.  So she brought it up, "I know you are mad at me and just not telling me!"  Not true.  Sure, I was feeling down, about all kinds of things (her being one of them), but not mad.  I saw it as my thing to deal with and nothing that she could change or do differently except give me space.  But I have been down that "you are mad at me, I know it" accusation many times before.  Now I mostly shrug it off.  

At one point she was telling me something about a friend of hers.  This friend happens to be an ex.  No, I am not completely comfortable with that arrangement, but he isn't a good friend and he doesn't live near here, so I don't have to see him or know him.  But I also know that she needs to be free to choose her own friends and boundaries in relationships, because I need that same freedom.  If I have a jealousy issue, that's my issue.  But I don't think it is jealousy.  I think my issue is more of the double standard, that if the situation were reversed, she would be furious.  Also is that I know she has told me about an incident or two in that relationship where she raged at him and he enforced a boundary, and she still feels hurt by that.  So, I think for me my uncomfortable feeling is not really jealousy or feeling threatened, but that this just illustrates that our relationship is unbalance or unhealthy.  

During the conversation the other night, she stopped herself, said she shouldn't be talking about him.  Then she asked if I wanted her to quit talking to him.  I told her she can be friends with whoever she wants to be friends with.  She then said, "yeah, but it may be inappropriate, but I don't know."  I replied, "what would concern me is if there is a double standard here, because I don't think that is good for a relationship."  She then said that if the situation were reversed, she would be extremely jealous and angry, but may be more okay with it if my ex lived out of state.  Then she remarked about how she should talk to her AA sponsor about this.  

I'm glad I was able to converse and communicate with her over this without a complete breakdown (although it may have contributed to the next day's disregulation).

In possibly a related conversation, she was telling me last night about a friend who is getting divorced and has a crush on some guy.  My GF was telling me this as an illustration of how close she and this woman are getting, almost as "look at me, I have a close friend now! we are talking about her live life!"  My GF told me how she advised her friend to just go out and sleep with some guy to get it over with, but to chose a more stable guy than the guy she has a crush on.  I don't know why this bothered me.  I told my GF that it may be better for her friend to get her own house in order first, because she may wind up hurting someone else by only wanting sex while her partner was hoping for more.  I guess it bothers me because my GF has complained of men doing that to her before, yet doesn't make the connection here, and is advising her friend to do exactly what men have done to her and left her feeling hurt.  

Frustrating, but I think underlying all of this was just a busy weekend and really needing time to myself to think.

[Grey Kitty]

I dunno how to deal with somebody who expects you to try to control them and feels like you don't love them if you don't try. 

I do agree with one suggestion: Yes/No or questions with fewer options are better than wide open questions for times like this.  For example:

"Would you like bacon and eggs this morning" or even

"I'm going to cook myself bacon and eggs, would you like some?" instead of

"What do you want for breakfast?"

Remember... . if she *really* wants yogurt and granola for breakfast, and knows it, she can say something directly about it.

[seeking balance]

She wants marriage but can't give you an ultimatum and follow through with it like a healthy woman would in this situation.

Wow - that is direct and accurate... . she is not a healthy woman and you are totally right, a healthy woman who wants a kid wouldn't be in this situation... .

I honestly had not looked at it from that lens - thank you for sharing.

[NickM]

Max,

I still think you need to front up to your side of this relationship.

Yes, she is the one causing the drama. Yes, she is unstable and unreasonable.

BUT... .

You've let this go on and on. You support this behaviour, even though you wish you didn't have to.

Her: "Are you mad at me?"

Max: "I wouldn't say that I feel mad, however I do feel exhausted in this relationship at times. I don't feel as though my needs are always important in this relationship. It doesn't make me mad though, but thankyou for noticing that I seemed a little different."

If you can't have a mature and honest conversation then where are you heading with this r/s?

I agree with SC, if you love her and want the best for her maybe that now the best for her is to find a new caretaker (father, friend). You can warn whoever that is that you are contemplating ending the relationship and she will need their support and that you worry she might commit suicide etc. So long as she has you then I see no reason for her to change her ways. If you think back over the course of your r/a and plotted her 'happiness' on a trend graph... . I wonder what slope you'd see. You can't blame yourself or external factors. She has to do the work and nothing you can do until that time will ever result in a change of her behaviour. At least that's my feeling.

Max, I want you to try and balance your posts to 50/50. 50% of what she is doing to upset you etc and 50% about what you did or should have done to protect that boundary?

Is this something you're willing to try? I want to really understand what boundary does she cross (yours), how she did it (her behaviour) and ultimately how you dealt with it (you). If you follow this we should be hearing more about Max and less about her. It's Max we want to help right now.

Sincere good wishes to you Max. Sorry if I seem a little harsh on you today.

[maxsterling]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.  I know I have mentioned her dad before.  She's seen him once in 6 months, and only because I agreed to go with her.  I wished he would step in and help.  But, he's actually the reason she moved in with me in the first place.  Well, it's not him, but the dynamic between him and his daughter.  My impression of him is that he is exhausted, and tired of dealing with an unstable daughter for 20 years.  So he's put up his boundaries, and refused to help her.  Actually, I'm not sure if he has refused, she has refused to ask clearly, or he has tried to help but she was unable to abide by boundaries, or what.  So if I was to tell her that I can't live with her anymore, she wouldn't go to him, because he wouldn't take her in, and she wouldn't ask out of a rejection fear.  I'm 99.9% certain of that.   She has a friend in another state a few thousand miles away that has taken her in before when her dad wouldn't help.  And an aunt and uncle who may take her in for awhile, but they are also out of state and a few thousand miles away.  In the past (especially when she was in the hospital) I thought about reaching out to one of them to let them know things weren't good with her living with me, to try and see what else we could do. 

As for me protecting boundaries and taking care of my half of the relationship, and not enabling her behaviors - I've been doing better at that, but know I need to do much more work in this area.  Telling her that I am not going to worry about or fix things I can't control.  Being less protective of her.  Telling her to focus on today and that I can't deal with all the future projection.  And that all goes well and I start feeling better and more confident - and then the suicide ideation again.  Something about the really negative self talk completely changes my thought process and I go into this automatic "protection" mode.  I guess that's similar to what a pwBPD would get into - overwhelmed by a stimulus and long-term logic no longer applies.  It's like if you saw a car crash and ran to drag a person out of a burning car, not caring that the car may blow up at any second. 

And suicide ideation is what I have been dealing with the last two weeks.  She's told me twice in the past week or two that had she moved out last summer she would have killed herself.  She's constantly telling me she hates herself, her life, her body, that she is a loser, and wants to blow her brains out.  Last night she got on the marriage topic again, which normally would have been a good time for me to try and test my skills regarding boundaries and wants and needs, but interlaced with the marriage talk was her saying she sees no reason to live anymore.  Simple manipulation or serious?  Probably some of both.  So instead, I probably made the problem worse by instinctively and without clear thinking doing/saying whatever it took to make her feel hopeful about herself and break her mind from her obsessive thoughts.  When she is talking about some other issue, it's easier for me to use SET and try and step away from the conversation, but so hard to do that when her talking about harming herself is the subject.   So once again it feel like I am putting me aside.  The conversation I think I need to have now is about whether or not I can trust her to go to the hospital again if she is feeling suicidal.  She's told me before that I should trust her on this, but I think it needs to be brought up again, and for me to let her know that now I am extremely worried. 

As I mentioned - with the other stuff I am doing better at regarding boundaries.  But when it comes to this extreme self loathing and suicidal talk, it's like everything just falls away.  I think I probably need to step away from posting about my r/s for awhile, and spend time just thinking about it on my own, or working with my T or our couples T. 

[seeking balance]

What does your couples T say about her suicide talk when you talked about it?

[NickM]

Max,

How are you Mate?

[maxsterling]

Nick - I'm hanging in there.  I got the "loving someone... . "  book and have been reading it.   Good stuff, but sobering.  Last week was particularly bad.  She was blowing up my phone with text messages while I was at work about how lonely she felt, how worthless, how she felt like she was rotting, how ugly she felt, how she wished someone would shoot her in the face, how she saw no reason to live anymore.  I tried to just ignore them and not respond immediately, validate when appropriate, and remind myself this is all just part of the BPD.  But then I noticed she was starting to isolate - cancel plans with friends, not respond to friends' calls, etc.  And I am told that seriously suicidal people will do that.  One day last week she sounded so bad that I came home from work at lunch time because I was scared.  Of course, when I got home she said "I feel bad that you came home, you shouldn't have done that."  Uggh.  Complete invalidation of my emotions, and notice once again it's made to be about her - that *she* feels bad, not that she is sorry for worrying me.  Anyway, I don't second guess coming home.  She was bad.  The next day, her AA sponsor suggested she check herself back into the hospital, and I asked her what she thought about that.  My GF replied that she feels worthless and hopeless and things the hospital will make her feel more worthless.  I agreed, and told her that in my opinion she would do better with an intensive outpatient program (DBT).  I told her that I trust her to do what is best for her. 

And after that - Friday and through the weekend, she was more social than I have seen her in almost a year.  Every day she was with someone, and I got some time for me.  I'm glad and relieved to see it, but the complete flip has me exhausted and confused.  I wonder if it was just someone else putting the thought of hospitalization in her head that made her realize she needs to help herself.  So is she still feeling quite low and self-destructive now and just masking that for me and others?  Or was she really not feeling suicidal before (all just manipulation/venting), and when she was called out on it decided to change her tune?

Couples T is today, and I really need to stress in front of the T how exhausted last weeks events made me, and how I feel like I can't take much more of that.  I really can't   Just be honest about how exhausted I feel.  After a period of this heightened worry, I tend to slip into a "recovery" phase where I just feel down and confused, while she will act like it's no big deal. And each time this happens, my recovery time is longer.  Next week we are scheduled to take a little camping trip for a week.  I've got my fingers crossed for a great time, but if it doesn't go great - I just don't know anymore. 

[Grey Kitty]

Next week we are scheduled to take a little camping trip for a week.  I've got my fingers crossed for a great time, but if it doesn't go great - I just don't know anymore. 

Prepare ahead--Make a backup plan for yourself. Figure out an "escape plan" or "Plan B" for the camping trip--if she starts to dysregulate, how can you bail out and take care of yourself w/o her (and her drama)?