Formation leader update

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Well... . we've done several things out in town as a family.  They all went fine.  School graduations/advancements and that kind of thing.  So far we are sticking to the admonition to "not talk about the case".  We also aren't bringing up anything controversial... just being together.  That's been nice.


Family T wants me to spend time with each kid.  Don't try to force anything... . let the talk about what they want.  I emailed out DSS person to confirm that this is ok and it appears that I'm good to go to go out individually and do things.  I sent a follow up confirmation email to DSS and I'm waiting on a response.  Then I will try to coordinate some stuff with uBPDw.

Speaking of doing things with uBPDw.  We ended up grabbing a quick bite of dinner together.  After S13 got advanced from 8th grade... . it was uBPDw and I and our son at the ceremony.  We took him to another school building for a school dance.  We took some pictures and then walked out and left him at dance.  At this point he needed to be picked up from dance in about an hour.  I suggested we run up the road grab a bite and talk through where kids were at on things. 

This was first time we had been alone together since the spanking incident.  It went fine.  I tried to be on guard... . but not be nervous.  We discussed several things about different kids... . nothing controversial.  Went back to dance, more pictures.  Walked out with s13.  I said goodbye and we drove off separately.

Today they had to bring me a replacement vehicle as the one I have been driving died and had to be towed.  It's now fixed... . and at some point tonight or tomorrow... . I plan on venting that entire story out.  I think I'd be too upset to do it now... if I started to write it all out.

Anyway... . DSS just got back to me.  I'm totally cleared for one on one time out in town.

Which brings up that I need to think about what to say if they start asking lots of questions.  I should probably focus on making sure I have the questions correct... . and answer them later.

uBPDw asked what I was doing Sunday afternoon.  I had been wondering how Father's day would be handled.  The basic plan is that we will walk to a local pizza place after church. 

This coming Thursday is our first MC since I made the DSS report.  If you remember... . I made the report after she refused to put in writing that corp punishment is off the table.  Then we delayed MC due to conflict with school events.  So... I'm going to need advice on how to handle myself there.  I would like to keep progress going... . there are so many issues built up... . and who knows what she will want to talk about.

OK... . BPD specific things I have noticed.

Several times at out in town things... . usually when we first got together or I first saw her... . her face looked strained... . not rage... . but like you would ask someone is things are ok.  After a few minutes together I wouldn't see that.

I don't think I handled a dent in the van properly.  Background:  as with most BPD... . they are responsible for nothing.  The van she drives has had many dings in it... . and we recently got it in the shop and got them all fixed up.  For about a week the van looked great.  When I got in the van after eating (while s13 was at dance)... I noticed a fresh dent.  Without thinking... I asked what happened.    Well... she sounded cross and said "at least it looked good for a week". 

Then she said something about d17 "showing mommy" how to drive around a brick wall without hitting it.

Her face looked a little tight... . some sighing.  I just rode in silence. 

At some point the "functional" part of me asked if the door operated ok still.  She said it did. 

Lots of history here... . about her driving habits... . accountability.  I was an instructor pilot for a long time... . so teaching proper, safe operation of machinery... is a big deal to me. 

I have told her... . and told her and kids together that events were fun or that I had a good time.

I've not said anything "relational" to her... . like "miss you" or "love you"... or any of that.  My thinking is that would create pressure for her to respond... . and our family T doesn't want that... . at this point.

Probably enough for now... .

Thoughts?  Questions? 

Oh yeah... . DSS is in process of talking to counselors from our past...

[formflier]

Well... . we've done several things out in town as a family.  They all went fine.  School graduations/advancements and that kind of thing.  So far we are sticking to the admonition to "not talk about the case".  We also aren't bringing up anything controversial... just being together.  That's been nice.


Family T wants me to spend time with each kid.  Don't try to force anything... . let the talk about what they want.  I emailed out DSS person to confirm that this is ok and it appears that I'm good to go to go out individually and do things.  I sent a follow up confirmation email to DSS and I'm waiting on a response.  Then I will try to coordinate some stuff with uBPDw.

Speaking of doing things with uBPDw.  We ended up grabbing a quick bite of dinner together.  After S13 got advanced from 8th grade... . it was uBPDw and I and our son at the ceremony.  We took him to another school building for a school dance.  We took some pictures and then walked out and left him at dance.  At this point he needed to be picked up from dance in about an hour.  I suggested we run up the road grab a bite and talk through where kids were at on things. 

This was first time we had been alone together since the spanking incident.  It went fine.  I tried to be on guard... . but not be nervous.  We discussed several things about different kids... . nothing controversial.  Went back to dance, more pictures.  Walked out with s13.  I said goodbye and we drove off separately.

Today they had to bring me a replacement vehicle as the one I have been driving died and had to be towed.  It's now fixed... . and at some point tonight or tomorrow... . I plan on venting that entire story out.  I think I'd be too upset to do it now... if I started to write it all out.

Anyway... . DSS just got back to me.  I'm totally cleared for one on one time out in town.

Which brings up that I need to think about what to say if they start asking lots of questions.  I should probably focus on making sure I have the questions correct... . and answer them later.

uBPDw asked what I was doing Sunday afternoon.  I had been wondering how Father's day would be handled.  The basic plan is that we will walk to a local pizza place after church. 

This coming Thursday is our first MC since I made the DSS report.  If you remember... . I made the report after she refused to put in writing that corp punishment is off the table.  Then we delayed MC due to conflict with school events.  So... I'm going to need advice on how to handle myself there.  I would like to keep progress going... . there are so many issues built up... . and who knows what she will want to talk about.

OK... . BPD specific things I have noticed.

Several times at out in town things... . usually when we first got together or I first saw her... . her face looked strained... . not rage... . but like you would ask someone is things are ok.  After a few minutes together I wouldn't see that.

I don't think I handled a dent in the van properly.  Background:  as with most BPD... . they are responsible for nothing.  The van she drives has had many dings in it... . and we recently got it in the shop and got them all fixed up.  For about a week the van looked great.  When I got in the van after eating (while s13 was at dance)... I noticed a fresh dent.  Without thinking... I asked what happened.    Well... she sounded cross and said "at least it looked good for a week". 

Then she said something about d17 "showing mommy" how to drive around a brick wall without hitting it.

Her face looked a little tight... . some sighing.  I just rode in silence. 

At some point the "functional" part of me asked if the door operated ok still.  She said it did. 

Lots of history here... . about her driving habits... . accountability.  I was an instructor pilot for a long time... . so teaching proper, safe operation of machinery... is a big deal to me. 

I have told her... . and told her and kids together that events were fun or that I had a good time.

I've not said anything "relational" to her... . like "miss you" or "love you"... or any of that.  My thinking is that would create pressure for her to respond... . and our family T doesn't want that... . at this point.

Probably enough for now... .

Thoughts?  Questions? 

Oh yeah... . DSS is in process of talking to counselors from our past...

[Matt]

I think it's good that you are having some positive time as a family, and I agree with your counselor that spending time listening to each kid is super-important, even though they may not open up right away.

Spending time alone with your wife at this point is risky, but it sounds like you were in a more-or-less public place and the talk was all about the kids, so the risk of her melting down was low.  Just be careful!

"... . if they start asking lots of questions" - you mean if they ask you questions in writing, like e-mail, or if they want to interview you?

Have you talked with an attorney who is experienced with DSS to find out the risks?  Is DSS where you live very biased against fathers, so they might be looking to trap you?  Or can they be trusted?  Could it lead to criminal risk?  I think you need to understand DSS's process very well before answering any questions.

I would also challenge whether you need to continue to ask their permission to do normal father things like spending time with your kids.  Do you have anything in writing that says you need DSS's permission to see your kids?  Careful not to buy into any bullying - you're the kids' father and that gives both you and them rights, and those rights can't be taken away without due process (I think).

Don't get too hung up on Father's Day.  Look for signals from the kids.  Lots of conflict between parents happens because we think there's something magic about certain days, and we get inflexible.  If they kids want to see you that day, great, or you can say "Let's have Father's Day Tuesday when you're here" - minimize the drama.

When they were younger and had no money, a big issue for my kids was the last-minute realization that they didn't get Mom anything for Mother's Day or her birthday or whatever.  That meant I had to take them somewhere to shop, and give them money, and sometimes suggest ideas too;  I basically had to buy gifts for someone who had put me in jail.

But I did it, and she did the same, because it's about the kids, and it worked out fine.  And sometimes Father's Day came on a Tuesday for us... .

[Matt]

MC:  Is your goal to fix the relationship, or to end it peacefully, or what?

It seems like a critical issue right now is setting your own objective.  If it's to fix the marriage, that's one thing - might take a while and might require some really frank talks with your wife and the MC about your expectations.

If your goal is to end the marriage peacefully, that will be hard too, but it will require different approaches;  for example, a lot of disengagement.

You may be in limbo right now - not sure which way you really want things to go.  Maybe still thinking the best thing would be for your wife to get diagnosed.  Is that right?

[formflier]

 

Spending time alone with your wife at this point is risky, but it sounds like you were in a more-or-less public place and the talk was all about the kids, so the risk of her melting down was low.  Just be careful

Yeah... . and in this case I felt a bit better about it... . because it was not planned.  Not saying she plots things... . but I could see negative things getting going in there head from over thinking... . or making stuff up.

"... . if they start asking lots of questions" - you mean if they ask you questions in writing, like e-mail, or if they want to interview you?

I was thinking about if my kids start asking me questions about what is going on.

Have you talked with an attorney who is experienced with DSS to find out the risks?  Is DSS where you live very biased against fathers, so they might be looking to trap you?  Or can they be trusted?  Could it lead to criminal risk?  I think you need to understand DSS's process very well before answering any questions.

Yeah... . they are ok to deal with... . the recommendation is to make sure and follow process.  For instance, I made sure and got email saying me going out with one of my kids and nobody else was fine.  That was the recommendation of my family T... . and so I made sure to cover myself, made sure dss knows I am following directions... . etc etc

 

I would also challenge whether you need to continue to ask their permission to do normal father things like spending time with your kids.  Do you have anything in writing that says you need DSS's permission to see your kids?  Careful not to buy into any bullying - you're the kids' father and that gives both you and them rights, and those rights can't be taken away without due process (I think).

Technically it is a mutually agreed on safety plan.  DSS, uBPDw and I all signed.  I could have bucked up... . but that would have been much more adversarial... . and could have ended up in same situation.  Also thinking about the future... . if uBPDw bolts from counseling.  I want to make sure I can honestly prove that I have complied with all requests... . and then can say... . I wonder why Mrs Flier won't agree to stay in counseling... . hmmmm

[Matt]

I was thinking about if my kids start asking me questions about what is going on.

I'm sorry but I forget how old they are... . ?

Usually what you want to do is listen carefully to what they are asking, and answer it, as simply and as age-appropriate as possible.  Tell the truth but don't assume they want to know everything you are thinking about.

When I told me S(then)8 we were getting divorced, after several months of separation, you know what he asked?  "Will we take the same bus to school?"  The reason was that he didn't want it to be obvious to other kids and teachers that something had changed.  He had some shame about the divorce and didn't want anybody to know about it.  My answer was, "Yes."  There was a lot more going on - his shame, for starters - but I had time to think about how to deal with that.  At the moment, I was able to make him feel OK just by answering the bus question.

[formflier]

 

MC:  Is your goal to fix the relationship, or to end it peacefully, or what?

I'm going to say that I want to leave the door open to fixing relationship.  I need to be detached enough to make sure I understand if she is actually making progress.  I am clear in my mind that I'm not just going to shrug my shoulders and get back on the crazy train.

It seems like a critical issue right now is setting your own objective.  If it's to fix the marriage, that's one thing - might take a while and might require some really frank talks with your wife and the MC about your expectations.

I think the most important thing is to honor that she is attending T and give that the best chance to take hold.

You may be in limbo right now - not sure which way you really want things to go.  Maybe still thinking the best thing would be for your wife to get diagnosed.  Is that right?

Yes... . I would love a diagnosis... . but I think an effective T relationship is more important. 

[formflier]

 

I'm sorry but I forget how old they are... . ?

18, 17, 13, 11, 8, 6, 3, 1

that's a lot of numbers.

Funny story:  I met S18, S13 and D1 for dinner this evening.  They drove and met me.  I got asked if D1 is my grandbaby... .    

They got to restaurant just before me.  Several people commented to me how well the boys took care of the baby.  Nice to hear things like that... . when lots of other stuff is screwed up.

[Matt]

When my youngest two were little, SD was 8 and SS was 20.  And we're different races - their mom and SS are one race, I'm another, and the younger three are bi-racial.  So when we went out together we got lots of looks - a big range in ages and there's no way we could all be related by blood.  But who cares... .

It might be best to start with the older kids, and talk one-on-one with each of them, and just be completely open, except careful about characterizing their mom.  But don't hide her behaviors either;  if one of the older kids asks about something she did, tell the truth and tell how you are dealing with it.

For the middle kids, you won't want to talk about divorce or the conflict between you and their mom, but about the situation - the living arrangements and why.  "Your mom and I are having problems so we need to be apart most of the time now, til we get things figured out." - or whatever is your truth.  As simple as possible.

The three-year-old and one-year-old probably only think in terms of where you are and why you aren't where they are, and maybe not even that.  Maybe just focus on how they are doing, and the right amount of physical touch to confirm your feelings toward them are still the same.

[GaGrl]

Ha!  Similar situation here... . DH's ex is Asian, so his children are obviously bi-racial. Once DH and I married and started socializing with his adult children and the grandchild, here we were with Scot-Irish, red-haired DH and blonde Gagrl with these gorgeous Thai-American kids. Once DH and I were asked if we adopted GD5 from China, and we had to explain that, no... . She is DH's bio granddaughter, not adopted.

We have found, that over the years, we just have to discuss and respond to what comes up with the adult children and the grandchild at the level they present at any given time. They are all in different places with the uND/BPD according to their own development. The son is the GC36,  but the scapegoat D33 takes the brunt because The Dark Princess insists on access to the granddaughter.

It's absolutely exhausting to keep up and support each one in where they are with their mother on any Monday. And we just have 4adult children between us and 1 grandchild!

[ForeverDad]

I would also challenge whether you need to continue to ask their permission to do normal father things like spending time with your kids.  Do you have anything in writing that says you need DSS's permission to see your kids?  Careful not to buy into any bullying - you're the kids' father and that gives both you and them rights, and those rights can't be taken away without due process (I think).

Technically it is a mutually agreed on safety plan.  DSS, uBPDw and I all signed.  I could have bucked up... . but that would have been much more adversarial... . and could have ended up in same situation.  Also thinking about the future... . if uBPDw bolts from counseling.  I want to make sure I can honestly prove that I have complied with all requests... . and then can say... . I wonder why Mrs Flier won't agree to stay in counseling... . hmmmm

While I can understand you can't do anything you want right now, I also see Matt's point that you may not have to be too timid.  For example, on Father's Day are you 'limited' to seeing the children singly?  Can't you offer to see them all together?  Maybe take over a few tables in a restaurant?

[PinkieV]

It's very interesting to see the kids' reactions to their BPD parent. My SS14 will not admit yet that there is a problem. We were at SS18's graduation earlier this week and one of his good friends came that my younger SS has known for years. The friend hugged him and asked "is your mom getting better"? SS14 looked absolutely shocked that anyone else even guessed there were issues. There was so much more to that moment than DH and I could contribute. I could have kissed that kid! I did give him a big hug later. My point being, they know things, but sometimes it has to be put in perspective for them.

[formflier]

It's very interesting to see the kids' reactions to their BPD parent. My SS14 will not admit yet that there is a problem. We were at SS18's graduation earlier this week and one of his good friends came that my younger SS has known for years. The friend hugged him and asked "is your mom getting better"? SS14 looked absolutely shocked that anyone else even guessed there were issues. There was so much more to that moment than DH and I could contribute. I could have kissed that kid! I did give him a big hug later. My point being, they know things, but sometimes it has to be put in perspective for them.

Can you give more details on what behaviors the ss14 was ignoring... . or not attributing to the mom?

[Grey Kitty]

MC:  Is your goal to fix the relationship, or to end it peacefully, or what?

I'm going to say that I want to leave the door open to fixing relationship.  I need to be detached enough to make sure I understand if she is actually making progress.  I am clear in my mind that I'm not just going to shrug my shoulders and get back on the crazy train.

I don't think "leaving your options open" is a good choice right now. I'd recommend you either plan on ending it OR on repairing it. You are the mentally healthy one. If you aren't committed to improving it, it is NOT going to get better.

[formflier]

 

  For example, on Father's Day are you 'limited' to seeing the children singly?  Can't you offer to see them all together?  Maybe take over a few tables in a restaurant?

I probably didn't explain or quote the "safety plan" well enough.  My impression was that it did not mention seeing the kids singly.  After the family T wanted me to start doing that... . to be on the safe side I clarified that with the DSS case worker.  uBPDw was on that email chain.

Before I had clarified that it was clear that I could do things in groups out in town.

For instance.  This morning me and several kiddos are going to McDs for breakfast... . they are running some kind of special.  Then after church we are going to go to a local pizza place... . something we can walk to from church.

Thanks for asking the questions... . pointing out issues... . it helps me think things through and stay off landmines

[formflier]

I don't think "leaving your options open" is a good choice right now. I'd recommend you either plan on ending it OR on repairing it. You are the mentally healthy one. If you aren't committed to improving it, it is NOT going to get better.

Interesting... . let me rephrase my thinking... . and explain why I said it that way.

I am painfully aware that the status of the r/s is not up to me... . it's up to a pwBPD.  So... in theory... . I could do the best job I could in MC, using tools etc etc... . I could get painted black and get the boot. 

So... . it's with that thinking that I sort of hedged.

 

If I am the decider... . we fix the r/s.

Even more important is that "fixing" the r/s involves me avoiding the bad patterns of the past. 

The hopeful and uncharted waters that we are in is that uBPDw has had a couple T appointments that are just about her.  She is the focus.

The T has been very clear that the sessions are not to whine about the other person... . they are to look at what the person in T needs to change... . to "take off the table" as a reason that the family r/s is having issues.

So... final attempt at rephrase.  I want to fix the r/s... . however... . I need to be prepared for some sort of acting out or attempt on her part to end it.  Being prepared is important so that my reaction is helpful... and does not further drive her away.

Thoughts?

[KateCat]

Are you contemplating moving back home soon? Or are you thinking of getting an apartment for yourself for the immediate future? or continuing to stay with your parents? I guess I'm having trouble seeing how your family unit moves forward in a way that minimizes stress for all (ten!) family members.

[Matt]

What path do you see for the marriage to be healed?

What steps do you need to take, and what steps does your wife need to take?

Have you discussed this path with her, so she knows what you believe needs to be done?

[KateCat]

There you go. Excellent summary from Matt.

(I was thinking that maybe expecting something concrete from your wife--like a commitment to one year's worth of weekly visits to the counselor she has begun seeing--might be much more productive than expecting that she will be able to simply stop certain chronic behaviors and accusations toward you, for instance.)

[formflier]

Are you contemplating moving back home soon? Or are you thinking of getting an apartment for yourself for the immediate future? or continuing to stay with your parents? I guess I'm having trouble seeing how your family unit moves forward in a way that minimizes stress for all (ten!) family members.

Excellent questions... . keep them coming.

No... I don't see myself moving back soon. 

Couple things:

1.  The DSS process needs to move forward... and right now that process has me out of the house.  DSS and Family T will be speaking this week.  I also learned that the only way DSS gives up the written reports is via court order.  The family T asked to see them and DSS said no to handing over copies of the reports.  However... . they are more than fine to discuss the contents of the reports (at length)... . with the family T so that will help him guide his T with us.

I'm a govt guy and my interpretation is that this is how the DSS people deal with the rule (no copies) and do the right thing (they know the information needs to be shared with the family T).

2.  While I would "like" to move back home... . I want to be wise about this.  We have done lots of good things out in town as a family.  Just got back from an awesome Father's Day lunch... . uBPDw was on top of her game to keep kids in line.  We really had a nice time.

Anyway... . my opinion is that if we can build up a good memory bank of good times, while at the same time doing family T, and individual T... . that will set us up for long term success.

However... . I need to discuss this with our family T... . and make sure we are following his direction. 

I'm also interested in what you guys think of this plan... . please try to poke holes in it... . bring up glaring things I've forgotten... . etc etc.

The plan for immediate future is to stay with parents.  So far seems to be good with them... . maybe I'll say more about living arrangements for me in another post.

[formflier]

What path do you see for the marriage to be healed?

Well... . step 1 is not necessarily to "heal" my uBPDw... . but to make sure that she is doing well in T... . and that she acknowledges that she has a part to play in healing the relationship.  I see no reason that she will not do that... or acknowledge that... . but that conversation hasn't happened yet.  It may come up Tuesday morning in MC... . we'll see.

Maybe we have a dating relationship for a while.  Maybe weekends away.  Who knows if things in house are triggering... .

So... yeah... I'd love to get back home... . that is goal... I see lots of baby steps from here to now.  And if we get stuck on one of those steps... . rather than forcing it... . most likely course of action is to wait, observe... . and discuss that a lot here and in T.

What steps do you need to take, and what steps does your wife need to take?

I need to make sure that PTSD is "off the table" as an issue.  Talking with individual T about that... . have had return visits with psychologist at VA. 

I also need to make sure that I am more practices with the tools.  She will get triggered... . so will I... that is not a failure... . however... . if we fall back into old pattern and a full scale dysregulation happens... not good.

I'm sure I need to fill up "my" list more... . I'll keep working on this.

Have you discussed this path with her, so she knows what you believe needs to be done?

No... . we have had zero relationship discussion.  Family T guy wanted me to lay off... . let him work the program some.  I will bring it up this week to see if I should "push" relationship talk or stick with parenting.

We've hugged once.  This morning I think I woke her up when I was coordinating who I would take to breakfast.    She said love you when hanging up... . but I'm pretty sure she was on "just woke up automatic mode"... .

Sometimes when doing things with kids we sit next to each other... . touching is not weird... . we seem comfortable around each other.

[Matt]

I think these are very good steps.

I would suggest that you keep in mind the worst of her behaviors, not because you should dwell on the worst - I think it's wise to focus on baby-steps and keeping things positive - enhancing the good stuff and each of you working on your own issues for a while before re-starting a very intimate relationship.

But keeping in mind the worst of her behaviors can remind you what will happen if you re-start the relationship without dealing with the root causes of those behaviors.  Stuff you do that might be "triggering" could be a part of the issue, but you could do that same stuff to a healthy person, and she wouldn't react the way your wife did.

So don't lose track of what needs to happen at some point - your wife needs to accept responsibility for all her behaviors and get the help she needs.

[formflier]

So don't lose track of what needs to happen at some point - your wife needs to accept responsibility for all her behaviors and get the help she needs.

Absolutely... . I have no illusion that we will have exactly the same version of "the truth"... or what happened.

However... . it's all your fault... . ain't going to work. 

[ForeverDad]

As you've noticed, I've commented before about having substantial contact with the children during this time of upheaval.  How about inviting some of the kids over for overnights with you and grandparents, perhaps taking turns a few at a time?  The longer you are away from them, the longer they're not in your care, the more likely you'll become a non-custodial (minority time) parent.

And you may say, "but her behaviors have been so bad... . ", well consider that if you don't reconcile then the agency and court may conclude, "Well, it's working so far, let's not change what works."  That is the risk.

[Matt]

As you've noticed, I've commented before about having substantial contact with the children during this time of upheaval.  How about inviting some of the kids over for overnights with you and grandparents, perhaps taking turns a few at a time?  The longer you are away from them, the longer they're not in your care, the more likely you'll become a non-custodial (minority time) parent.

And you may say, "but her behaviors have been so bad... . ", well consider that if you don't reconcile then the agency and court may conclude, "Well, it's working so far, let's not change what works."  That is the risk.

Good point.  Maybe you can aim to have the kids with you at least half the time - and at least half the nights - before the legal process begins, if it does.  Otherwise it will be hard to get majority time, or maybe even 50/50.

[formflier]

 

Good idea.  I had been thinking about maybe trying to do something like that.  Now that school is out... that opens up schedules. 

That would be a natural progression of what has been going on so far.

Gradually stepping activities up.

[Matt]

What is the process for ending DSS's involvement in a positive way?

[formflier]

What is the process for ending DSS's involvement in a positive way?

It seems to be to play along with them happily... .

The next big step with them is to establish a link between the Family T and the DSS caseworker.  I can see a handoff being from them to him.  With some kind of finding that there are "fears"... but no danger.

Some of this has been gleaned from talks with my L who is familiar with DSS in both counties... . and how they are different.

At this point the strategy does not involve... . "fighting" dss over anything.

That being said... . so far I'm not seeing DSS as a negative influence.  Even though some of the stuff didn't go exactly as I had hoped.  It still forced several issues.

And... . uBPDw is in uncharted waters... . going to a T.  If nothing else... . at least we are NOT repeating failed behavior patterns of the past.

My next planned DSS communication is later in the week... . after I verify that family T has been in contact.

At that point I'm going to raise the question of how we wrap this up... .

[Grey Kitty]

My point was not to suggest that you can single-handedly save your marriage, or to suggest that your wife couldn't single-handedly destroy it. I am aware of that.

My point was that if you aren't committed to repairing your r/s with your wife... . still with limits, to protect yourself and your children... . I don't see much chance of it working out.

The serious question for you is do you want to move back in with your wife or not? You have very real concerns and limits that would delay a move back... . or need to be dealt with first... . but what is YOUR choice--given how your wife is, not how you wish she would be, are you willing to move back in and try to make the best of it?

Or would you rather aim for a therapeutic separation as your "best case" goal? Or simply divorce and the best custody you can get?

[formflier]

The serious question for you is do you want to move back in with your wife or not?

Yes... I want to move back in with my wife... . but... .

You have very real concerns and limits that would delay a move back... . or need to be dealt with first... . but what is YOUR choice--given how your wife is, not how you wish she would be, are you willing to move back in and try to make the best of it?

If it turns out that this is all a sham... . that there is no real change... . then I have no interest in moving back in.  Note:  I don't think that is the case... but I think it is wise to let time "test" this... . to make sure it sticks. 

After 5 years of drama and ups and downs... . this is something new.  I want to think about this and act in a wise manner to have the best chance of long term change... . not a short term flash in the pan... . and then back to same old grind.

Plus... . I need to give myself time to keep learning... grounding myself in knowledge.

Or would you rather aim for a therapeutic separation as your "best case" goal?

I am thinking about moving to a period of TS.  Need to discuss that with MC and the Family T... . I'm open to this.  I think this could be a good way to work on our skills... . and still have some away time so that pressure doesn't build up too much. 

Maybe we can have some successes... . and can build some good momentum.

Or simply divorce and the best custody you can get?

Not really in my thinking at all.  However... . I have a general plan ready to go if in fact she files.  That would include moving quickly for a custody evaluation that includes in depth assessments.

Keep the questions/issues coming!

Also... . please comment on my use of quotes... . spacing out answers and all that.  I'm still struggling a bit with learning how to use the board... but to me... . the way I'm answering this one... seems a bit better.

Thoughts?

[KateCat]

If you don't have a therapist-assisted period of controlled contact before moving back home, how will you be able to assess your wife's state of mind and reaction to recent events?

The therapist could also assist both of you in formulating new terms of engagement. (Like maybe some agreements about letting formflier sleep peacefully through each night. )

I fear if you jump right back in, you're possibly going to have to jump right back out, disrupting everyone's lives further. So if you are going to make one good shot, making it in a reasoned way and with the help of a professional seems the most powerful method to me.