Formation leader update

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Being a parent is hard work and takes lots of time.  I have four, but only two at home.  (The four span 20 years in age.)

If there are two parents, both mentally and physically healthy, and one works outside the home, so the other does more of the parenting, that can work very well.

But if the stay-at-home parent isn't mentally healthy, the risks for the kids get much higher.  Kids raised primarily by a parent who has BPD, but isn't in treatment, are at much, much higher risk for depression, substance abuse, etc. - basically everything that can go wrong is much more likely.

You can read about this in "Understanding The Borderline Mother".  It's super-detailed and well-researched.  I found it very depressing, because it reflects so well what my stepson went through - he could basically represent the risks - psychological abuse when he was little, plus just a little physical and sexual abuse, leading to drinking by 12, drugs in high school, and then prison.  How that happens is a long story, but it happens pretty often when kids are left in the care of someone whose thinking is twisted.

So... . you have your work cut out for you.  Even if you wife were diagnosed now, and treated effectively, it's likely that one or more of your kids have already been impacted in ways that may not be obvious til later.  You'll need to learn a lot and be a big part of all their lives to reduce the risks.

My older stepdaughter is doing well but I believe she was impacted negatively in more subtle ways.  D17 and S16 are doing well too, but it's work to help them work through many issues that they deal with resulting from their mom's psychological problems - BPD and others.  So I'm not saying it can't be done - I believe kids are resilient and can do well if one parent has BPD or another psychological disorder - but it puts a big burden on the healthier parent, to work on ourselves and make sure we stay healthy, and to learn how to help kids who are dealing with a parent who has a big problem.

Yep... . this is weighing on me very heavily.  And honestly... . is most of my motivation to help change the situation.

If the kids see mom getting help... . and dad is open about getting help for his issues... . then... . when issues come up for the kids... . hopefully they will see it as OK and normal to get help.

[formflier]

Being a parent is hard work and takes lots of time.  I have four, but only two at home.  (The four span 20 years in age.)

If there are two parents, both mentally and physically healthy, and one works outside the home, so the other does more of the parenting, that can work very well.

But if the stay-at-home parent isn't mentally healthy, the risks for the kids get much higher.  Kids raised primarily by a parent who has BPD, but isn't in treatment, are at much, much higher risk for depression, substance abuse, etc. - basically everything that can go wrong is much more likely.

You can read about this in "Understanding The Borderline Mother".  It's super-detailed and well-researched.  I found it very depressing, because it reflects so well what my stepson went through - he could basically represent the risks - psychological abuse when he was little, plus just a little physical and sexual abuse, leading to drinking by 12, drugs in high school, and then prison.  How that happens is a long story, but it happens pretty often when kids are left in the care of someone whose thinking is twisted.

So... . you have your work cut out for you.  Even if you wife were diagnosed now, and treated effectively, it's likely that one or more of your kids have already been impacted in ways that may not be obvious til later.  You'll need to learn a lot and be a big part of all their lives to reduce the risks.

My older stepdaughter is doing well but I believe she was impacted negatively in more subtle ways.  D17 and S16 are doing well too, but it's work to help them work through many issues that they deal with resulting from their mom's psychological problems - BPD and others.  So I'm not saying it can't be done - I believe kids are resilient and can do well if one parent has BPD or another psychological disorder - but it puts a big burden on the healthier parent, to work on ourselves and make sure we stay healthy, and to learn how to help kids who are dealing with a parent who has a big problem.

Yep... . this is weighing on me very heavily.  And honestly... . is most of my motivation to help change the situation.

If the kids see mom getting help... . and dad is open about getting help for his issues... . then... . when issues come up for the kids... . hopefully they will see it as OK and normal to get help.

[Matt]

Yep... . this is weighing on me very heavily.  And honestly... . is most of my motivation to help change the situation.

If the kids see mom getting help... . and dad is open about getting help for his issues... . then... . when issues come up for the kids... . hopefully they will see it as OK and normal to get help.

This is exactly my experience.

I just said D17 is doing very well, but she does experience a lot of stress - being around her mother is incredibly stressful, as I fully realized only when we separated, and I found I could breathe again.

Recently D17 told me she thinks she would benefit from counseling.  There's nothing "wrong" with her - she doesn't need to be "fixed" - but she thinks having someone she could talk with every other week would be helpful, and I think she's probably right.  So I helped her find someone and she'll start that next week.

Both my younger kids have seen a counselor before, and SS35 has had the benefit of a year in rehab, which basically 24/7 therapy, and it has helped him immensely.  And I saw a counselor for years, and talked about openly with the kids, which I think may have helped them to see it as a sensible thing to do when you're stressed.

The irony is that the person most in need of therapy - and who has been ordered by the court to get it - is the one person who refuses to see someone.  Oh well.

[formflier]

The irony is that the person most in need of therapy - and who has been ordered by the court to get it - is the one person who refuses to see someone.  Oh well.

Any idea if you forced that issue in court... . if it would work or happen... . at least to get her in the door

[formflier]

 

Also... in my case... .

I don't think visits would be "stressful"... . if uBPDw and I broke up... . but I still don't think healthy.  Or more accurately stress would be different from what I think you are writing about.

My SIL (BPD traits) and uBPDw have fallen into the camp of being a "buddy" to the kids.  Let kids make all the decisions... . etc etc.

Then... . on the off chance when they (adults) want to make a decision... . all are shocked when kids buck up

[empath]

My SIL (BPD traits) and uBPDw have fallen into the camp of being a "buddy" to the kids.  Let kids make all the decisions... . etc etc.

Then... . on the off chance when they (adults) want to make a decision... . all are shocked when kids buck up

That kind of situation is stressful for kids as well because they don't have a consistent way of relating to their adults. The kids don't know what is coming next -- if the adults decide that the adults are suddenly in charge or not. It is stressful because of the confusion as the adults are inconsistent.

[formflier]

My SIL (BPD traits) and uBPDw have fallen into the camp of being a "buddy" to the kids.  Let kids make all the decisions... . etc etc.

Then... . on the off chance when they (adults) want to make a decision... . all are shocked when kids buck up

That kind of situation is stressful for kids as well because they don't have a consistent way of relating to their adults. The kids don't know what is coming next -- if the adults decide that the adults are suddenly in charge or not. It is stressful because of the confusion as the adults are inconsistent.

I have tried... unsuccessfully... . to make that point several times... .     about exactly the way you said it...

[Matt]

The irony is that the person most in need of therapy - and who has been ordered by the court to get it - is the one person who refuses to see someone.  Oh well.

Any idea if you forced that issue in court... . if it would work or happen... . at least to get her in the door

What would happen is I would be perceived as a troublemaker;  the court might order her (again) to get therapy;  I might have to pay for it;  my wife might actually go, and sit behind closed doors with somebody she picks, and lie to her for an hour at my expense.  And nothing would be accomplished.

The real issue is, does an individual accept that she has a problem and get the help she needs, or not?  If the answer to that is no, you're wasting your time.

An analogy which might help is if you have an alcoholic or addict in your family.  In most cases, family members would vote unanimously that he should get help.  We could even demand that he go to AA, therapy, or whatever, and the addict might pretend to go along with it.  But til he accepts that he has a problem - and that may not happen even when there is ample evidence that he does - he will continue to drink or whatever.

Same thing for someone with a personality disorder.  We are asking them to accept that there is something fundamentally wrong with their personality - which means with who they are.  They need to accept that, and commit to working hard to change it, or nothing will get better.  And no court can force someone to do that;  courts can impose consequences, but they're reluctant to do that.  They absolutely cannot make someone accept that she has a problem and needs help.

[formflier]

 

MC went OK today... . while not as great as I hoped... . I think some steps were taken.  Running short on time.

Family T guy is later this afternoon. 

I'll try to get a good update later this evening... . and then we can start working through that.

I appreciate all you guys and gals... . has been incredibly helpful.

[formflier]

 

MC and family t appointments went well.

We continue into the uncharted waters of where in past counseling she has bolted.

MC clearly said to her today that she needed individual therapy.

uBPDw claimed to "not care" if she "had something"... . as in a mental illness or diagnosis.  Then she tried to run through the litany of people that have told her she if just fine... . or that didn't tell her she needed individual work.

She "misremembered" many of those conversations with prior Ts and that point was discussed. 

She was trying to say that she was doing the individual T work with family guy "to be nice" to me... . or "fair"... .

This exchange was not argumentative... . no hint of dysregulation or all of that... .

In the end... . what she heard and acknowledged was that the MC was saying that individual T was a really good idea and was the MC recommendation.  That figuring out if "something" was going on with her... . anxiety, depression... . etc etc would be a good thing so it could be treated. 

Talk about diagnosis was had... . for her and for me... . and there was discussion about diagnosing issues... . and "ruling out" things.

So... . it wasn't a strong reaction from her (uBPDw) that I was hoping for... . acknowledgement that she may have a problem... . or does... . she committed to continuing it... . the individual work.

More later... .

Please let me know thoughts and questions.

[Matt]

What about... .

"I am concerned that there could be some issues that will keep us from having a better relationship, so I think we should look for some objective means of diagnosis.

"I've read about the MMPI-2 and I think that might be good information.

"Why don't we both take that and see where it leads?".

It would be interesting to hear both your wife's and the therapist's responses... .

Another take on it could be... .

"I remember that you did X, and Y, and Z.  I'm not pointing fingers or trying to make you feel bad about it, but those things happened, and I think there is something causing those kinds of behaviors.

"Why don't we both go for some testing that might identify whatever problems there might be, so that we can understand them and get whatever treatment is needed?"

[formflier]

What about... .

"I am concerned that there could be some issues that will keep us from having a better relationship, so I think we should look for some objective means of diagnosis.

"I've read about the MMPI-2 and I think that might be good information.

"Why don't we both take that and see where it leads?".

It would be interesting to hear both your wife's and the therapist's responses... .

Another take on it could be... .

"I remember that you did X, and Y, and Z.  I'm not pointing fingers or trying to make you feel bad about it, but those things happened, and I think there is something causing those kinds of behaviors.

"Why don't we both go for some testing that might identify whatever problems there might be, so that we can understand them and get whatever treatment is needed?"

A bit pressed for time... . more later.

But... . yes... . the black vs white versions of events was talked about.  MC referred to "lots of missing pieces"... . Individual T can fill those in... . MC made point that those need to be filled in.

I am trying to assume a non-adversarial role... . so I will not let alternate reality versions go by unchallenged... . but not trying to use past events to "push" for tests and such.

More of a baby steps approach.

I wish we had spent more time on MMPI... . or any time... we just didn't get to it.

Same with my discussion with family t guy.  Very productive but we didn't get to that.

I'm not dropping that... . but it's still on the list to even discuss.

[ForeverDad]

Just a reminder... . When will you have the discussion that nothing major has been shown to give basis to your recently reduced contact with the children and therefore you should be more involved in the children's lives and not just a 'visitor' with 'visitation'.  The longer this takes, the harder it will be to get back to where you were before with parenting.

Which department handles this or is it a consensus?  A "wait and see" attitude puts you at a time disadvantage.

[Grey Kitty]

I agree with ForeverDad--time out of the house is a bad precedent, and not something to accept.

It is an action by DSS; It was done before DSS even talked to either the Family T or MC. It is something to address with DSS.  Probably address it agressively with DSS; the "wait and see" version with you is going on for too long... . talk to your lawyer about it, perhaps?

I think strategy/tactics with MC and family T should not be the same as with DSS.

In that situation, it sounds like the various T are starting to get your wife's number. You don't need to push them to see it. There isn't an upside to being the "bad guy" in your wife's eyes in that context.

I suspect that your pushing the T's for MMPI-2 evaluations won't help reconciling with your wife or making therapy more effective. If your lawyer thinks it will help your case with DSS, that would be a better reason to do it.

[Matt]

Just a reminder... . When will you have the discussion that nothing major has been shown to give basis to your recently reduced contact with the children and therefore you should be more involved in the children's lives and not just a 'visitor' with 'visitation'.  The longer this takes, the harder it will be to get back to where you were before with parenting.

Which department handles this or is it a consensus?  A "wait and see" attitude puts you at a time disadvantage.

Good point.

If your wife wants to make the relationship work, she should cooperate 100% with your choice to see the kids at least half the time.  If she blocks that, without a good reason, that will show you her true intentions.

[formflier]

 

Oh yeah... . forgot to mention family situation.

There have been no restrictions on me doing things with kids individually and as a group.

Anytime I have asked uBPDw... she has agreed. 

We talked about it in MC and all agreed that I get what i ask for.

There was some talk in MC about me not hurrying back to house (whever DSS clears) to restart the relationship.  I initiated that talk.  I want to maintain a clear head about all of this... . and protect myself easier.

Trying to take long view here... . rather than a short term "victory".

Family T does not want me to hurry to restart in the house relationship either.

He wants me to establish my own r/s with each child without uBPDw around to filter.

More later... . keep pushing me!

[Matt]

I suspect that your pushing the T's for MMPI-2 evaluations won't help reconciling with your wife or making therapy more effective.

Here's the reasoning... .

* It probably isn't possible to have a healthy relationship with someone who has a personality disorder and is not getting the treatment she needs.

* There is good reason, based on her patterns of behavior, to believe that she may have a PD and/or some other psychological disorder(s).  Extreme, destructive behaviors, like false accusations, don't happen because somebody had a bad day.  They indicate problems.

* PDs and other psych disorders don't fix themselves.  If they are not treated the destructive behaviors tend to get worse;  if making small accusations doesn't relieve her bad feelings, she is likely to make more serious accusations, and the impact on the other party in the relationship, and on the kids, could be very serious and not easily undone.

* So the path to a healthy relationship and a healthy family probably requires a diagnosis and treatment.

* And an accurate, complete diagnosis - it's probably 50/50 there may be more than one disorder - isn't likely without an objective psych eval.  Maybe there are psychologists out there who are consistently able to diagnose multiple problems without testing but I've never heard of that happening.

How hard to push... . how fast or slow to take the process... . I can't say.  For me it took nearly a year, with two different MCs, to get to the point that it was clear my wife had a serious problem but was not going to accept treatment.  Maybe if I had pushed harder it would have worked out better, or maybe if I had pushed less it would have gone better - who knows.  I'm fairly certain that nothing would have worked but I can't say what might work for someone else... .

[Matt]

Oh yeah... . forgot to mention family situation.

There have been no restrictions on me doing things with kids individually and as a group.

Anytime I have asked uBPDw... she has agreed. 

We talked about it in MC and all agreed that I get what i ask for.

There was some talk in MC about me not hurrying back to house (whever DSS clears) to restart the relationship.  I initiated that talk.  I want to maintain a clear head about all of this... . and protect myself easier.

Trying to take long view here... . rather than a short term "victory".

Family T does not want me to hurry to restart in the house relationship either.

He wants me to establish my own r/s with each child without uBPDw around to filter.

More later... . keep pushing me!

So is there a practical way to have all the kids with you at least half the time - at least half the nights - at least half the non-school waking hours?

Those metrics can be important, if the marriage ends.  I was able to show a carefully kept spreadsheet - which hours each kid was with me - how many nights at each home - how many "non-school waking hours" - so when my wife said "I have been their primary parent" I could show that wasn't true.  Without that, she would have been presumed to be the primary parent, and it would have been harder for me to get primary custody or 50/50.

[formflier]

 

It has been a little weird to drop kids off at "my" house and drive away... .

But... . I'm working through it.

[formflier]

So is there a practical way to have all the kids with you at least half the time - at least half the nights - at least half the non-school waking hours?

Possible... . but not practical.

My #1 goal right now is to take PTSD and my kids "fear"... . off the table.  Current tactic for that is unfiltered 1 on 1 time.

So... running the numbers game on that... . is tough. 

I do see the point though.

Even from the point of view of preparing for a divorce... . I think my number 1 priority is to objectively and subjectively make sure that PTSD and fear are off the table.

This developed with input from T and L... .

Not saying the other issues aren't important... but... . when setting priorities.

[Matt]

So is there a practical way to have all the kids with you at least half the time - at least half the nights - at least half the non-school waking hours?

Possible... . but not practical.

My #1 goal right now is to take PTSD and my kids "fear"... . off the table.  Current tactic for that is unfiltered 1 on 1 time.

So... running the numbers game on that... . is tough. 

I do see the point though.

Even from the point of view of preparing for a divorce... . I think my number 1 priority is to objectively and subjectively make sure that PTSD and fear are off the table.

This developed with input from T and L... .

Not saying the other issues aren't important... but... . when setting priorities.

That makes sense.

I think a judge, a year or two from now, is likely to say, "There may have been an issue with that, but Mr. Flier has done what he could and it seems to have worked very well, so I don't see that as a factor now."

[ForeverDad]

Family T does not want me to hurry to restart in the house relationship either.

He wants me to establish my own r/s with each child without uBPDw around to filter.

And I suspect too to avoid a resumption of conflict once you're back and the doors are closed, things risk going back to the prior 'normal'.

I think my number 1 priority is to objectively and subjectively make sure that PTSD and fear are off the table.

This developed with input from T and L... .

Not saying the other issues aren't important... but... . when setting priorities.

This makes sense, get any potential negatives resolved promptly.  Likely your case is not going to be similar to (read: as bad as) those we often deal with here.  You've got multiple professionals involved, you're on your home turf, so to speak, two counties involved probably trying not to mishandle anything and you're in a responsible position.

Even if you can't have all the kids over regularly during the summer, have frequent overnights with rotating groups of them.  I'm sure your parents would like that, too often during high conflict the in-laws find themselves on the periphery wistfully looking in from a distance.

[formflier]

Family T does not want me to hurry to restart in the house relationship either.

He wants me to establish my own r/s with each child without uBPDw around to filter.

And I suspect too to avoid a resumption of conflict once you're back and the doors are closed, things risk going back to the prior 'normal'.

I think my number 1 priority is to objectively and subjectively make sure that PTSD and fear are off the table.

This developed with input from T and L... .

Not saying the other issues aren't important... but... . when setting priorities.

This makes sense, get any potential negatives resolved promptly.  Likely your case is not going to be similar to (read: as bad as) those we often deal with here.  You've got multiple professionals involved, you're on your home turf, so to speak, two counties involved probably trying not to mishandle anything and you're in a responsible position.

Even if you can't have all the kids over regularly during the summer, have frequent overnights with rotating groups of them.  I'm sure your parents would like that, too often during high conflict the in-laws find themselves on the periphery wistfully looking in from a distance.

Yep... . the overnight stay has not been done yet.  Thinking about trying to set one up for this weekend.  Just need to figure out logistics of who is doing what... and what makes most sense to do.

[Rapt Reader]

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