Divorcing my ex and have 4 little kids

[Ilovemylife]

Hi there.  I realize now more than ever that I need support  divorce is no it's way a little over 1 year and I have 4 little kids.  My ex has BPS   And she is trying to turn the kids against me . It's been painful as I've always been the "fixer" and I've realized I can't fix her . I'm trying to anger her and comply but she keeps asking for more and calling me a loser to our children.  Kids love me non the less.  But I'm afraid.  I'm a great father.  In fact my kids and coworkers and family always call me "super dad". I'm getting tired of dealing with her ups and downs and her campaign to turn the kids against me.  I've taken the high road and have not bashed their mom but I don't know if I should.  Even telling my kids that she is angry hurts me. I'm trying to be strong and I have some good days. But I cry a lot because I don't k i.e. how rue kids will look at me. I have 40 percent custody now.  Going to trial next month.  For 5050. In court once I cried and she looked at me and laughed in front of her lawyer and mine.  The other day my daughter was crying not wanting to come to me and as I was trying to reason with my daughter my ex was laughing.   I can't understand any mother that can laugh when her child is crying.   I'm hurting emotionally.  And I need to know that at the end it will all be ok.

[Sluggo]

Ilovemylife,

Welcome to the Board.  How did you hear about it. 

I am so sorry to hear what you are going through.  It is soo painful.  I am going through the same thing... .  Very similair story (as most are here)... .  was admired by others as a great dad, 7 kids - 17years old to 3 years old- , trying to keep things together, crying at night, not wanting a divorce.  People thought we had the marriage to be envied (it was all different behind closed doors).  I filed, it was death of a 1000 cuts.  I do feel better and able to think so much better.  However the pain of the alienation of the kids is so difficult. 

I was married 17 years and now 18 months in divorce process and waiting for the judge final ruling.  Parental alienation has been severe in my situation.  The oldest 4 kids have been turned.  It is so sad.  It makes me so angry.  What has helped me... .  sharing my story here, sharing with a couple of trusted friends, Sharing with a couple of family members, prayer, exercise, and seeing a therapist weekly.   

How old are your kids?  How long were your married?  When did you notice the breakdown in the marriage?  Share your story as you will get invaluable feedback.   

[ForeverDad]

Eventually... .it will be better than it is now.  How long that will take, no one can say for sure.  Things are bad now because (1) she has had time in the past to sabotage your parenting and (2) she is determined to keep sabotaging you (search "extinction burst" here) in expectation that you will be cowed into acquiescing and returning to ineffective passive attempts of the past to 'fix' things.

What you've done is set some firm boundaries such as ending a dysfunctional marriage and stepping up to parent as much as the court will allow you.  She's unhappy about that feeling she's the Authority but the Real Authority is domestic court.  Sadly, court may not discern that your parenting is so much better than hers, positive rather than oppressive and manipulating, but at least it will probably be "less unfair" than her.

While I realize you're seeking 50/50 because that may be the most you can practically get, be aware that the odds are she won't feel any less enabled and entitled.  When I sought full custody and majority time, our son's Guardian ad Litem (GAL - child's lawyer) wanted the least change possible.  She said judge will side with her recommendation so we settled for that, I would get full custody but keep the equal time.  She thought that would reduce the entitlement.  Of course, it didn't.  A year later I was back in court seeking the majority time I was denied.  This time the decision castigated my ex for 'disparaging' father even in our son's presence.  Finally, after some 8 years in and out of court, her bubble was burst.

So I worry that if/when you do get equal time that you will still face obstruction, sabotage and inconsistent cooperation (only when it's to ex's benefit).  In my case, which started in 2005 when we separated, I did get equal time in 2008 in the Final Decree.  But it didn't lessen her entitlement or obstructions.  In 2011 I became Custodial Parent.  No change.  In early 2014 I got majority time during the school year, I was able to demonstrate her raging at teachers and obstructing a school sponsored field trip.  Finally, the obstruction subsided.  For that reason I suggest you try to get some words into the court record, more than just seeking 50/50.  That a better outcome would include:

• Your joint custody to be adjusted to Decision Making or Tie Breaker status for the major custody decisions.  This way when you're sabotaged by her refusing to agree to common sense solutions, you're not the one waiting for months for court to render decisions, you're able to proceed with your judgment and it will be her who will have to challenge them afterward.
• You having majority time would be the best for the children.  It's already been documented that mother will unreasonably obstruct father's parenting but you can assure the court that you would not unreasonably or without basis obstruct mother.

[Ilovemylife]

I appreciate the comments.  I found out about this site by just wanting to educate myself.  Sadly I'm a physician and saw this coming when I first met my ex. We met when I was a resident. Got married after a couple of years is dating. And constant fighting.  Everyone asks me why did I marry her. People that met her usually say for a smart guy you really are stupid. So we got married.  There was always fighting.  Even before marriage.  And on the wedding night. It saddens my sisters and parents that they didn't help me call it quits early on.  I guess the kids were meant to be born.  I'm blessed with 4. 8 yo 6 yo.  And twins are 4. The twins were girls and because my ex didn't want girls she wanted to get an abortion.  I cried the entire pregnancy. We taught all the time.  For the first five years I would just bite my tongue and I thought that's what couples do.  Then the last 3 years I would get upset and yell back. She called the police once.  She said at first I hit her and they put me in handcuffs. Thank gd the two kids at the time were sleeping.  Then she changed her story and said I didn't hit her.  Should have left then.   But stayed for the kids.  She became rude to the kids and started calling them the f word when she would get mad.   And one day I told her I'm leavong her. Because to be rife to me is one thing.  But she can't be like that with the kids. I filed and it's been crazy since.  She has turned my oldest against my Fany but my oldest is confused and she comes around when she is with me. Just takes a while.  The twins were at first affected but now they are better.  One of my twins at 3 and a half would say mommy told me to punch grandpa in the face . It has been very hard. I've changed my schedule and drop off and pick up kids when with me.  The days not with me I'm on call. So I'm tired.  But do it because I can't live without my kids.  It's been a year now. And trial is next month.  I feel all she wants is money and she is using kids to get it.  She gets 13k a month and she won't spend a fine on kids.  Her family that use to be on my side when we were married now egg her on to ring my neck. They are very Wealthy so she doesn't need the money.  I don't talk to her anymore but once I asked her what do u do with 13k a month. She said I buy condoms.  It's sad but after 8 years of marriage I felt nothing when she said that. Tonight my oldest was having a hard time and she said she missed mommy on my custody time.  So when I went to pick her up I told my daughter I love you very much. It's my birthdau I want to celebrate with you.  My ex said you are a looser, you want to celibate your 40th with your family.  I don't know why but these stupid comments get to me.  I've been reading a lot about divorcing a BPD and now I know this is lifelong just have to develop thick skin.  And I know they kids will one day see it because no one can stand my ex. Not even her own Family except now they stand by her cuz I'm the enemy. I just don't know how to stop feeling ashamed for marrying her.   The other day I was apologizing to my family and friends for making such a poor life choice and ruining so many lives. She keeps telling the community that I'm a Chester and I've been with so many nurses and my family is poor so I would support them and take money out of the marriage. It's hard because sometimes people call me to tell me what she is saying. And I'm sure there are lots of people that don't call. 
People that know me usually side with me because they know my character. 
So that's my sorry. 

Just to give an example.  After several months of a patients battle in the Icu he finally passed.  So I went home and told my wife at the time my patient died  And I was so emotional that I cried as I was hugging his wife and son.  She turned to me and said did the nurses see you because you don't want to look like a pussy. 

Ughhhh   What a life. 

[Sluggo]

Ilovemywife,

To be called names is so very hard to hear.  I do laugh about it now, but my wife would do everything she could to cut me down when she was raging.  One time, I was calling the dog and the dog didn't come, she said you see... .  Even the dog doesn't respect you.  You are a loser. That hit me to the core.  Opened up a lot of unresolved issues. 

My brother in law- who I was friends with first= told me not to marry his sister.  He said she had a lot of anger issues.  My sister, just recently, sent me a copy of a letter I sent her when we were dating with me saying that we do fight a lot in the letter.  On our honeymoon, she gave me the silent treatment for something I did.  It crushed me.  So if it is any consulation, I was warned by her brother but I still married her. 

Where does the money go... .  one never knows but I did see just today that my wife (I had vistiation at her house today becuase of a special needs child on a vent)  had 15 tubes of toothpaste (13 new and 2 used), 17 sticks of deodorant (all new), 8 nasal sprays. 

Also my wife is using out 2 special need kids as a way to take control of parenting.  It worked at the initial prelim hearing.    I am hoping that the custody eval will do something different.

One thing I can stay in hindsite... .  I stayed to long.  My older (17,16,13,10 )kids treat me like I allowed my wife to treat me.  My younger kids (8, 6, 3) have not been exposed to that and my relationship is like much more normal (despite the things they have already been exposed to).   I believe my older kids would see me a different way if I would have pulled the trigger sooner.  I think your timing is still good at least as I saw it play out in my marriage. 

One thing I read... .   a man's reputation is like a mans beard.  It may get cut short by slanderous words by others.  But if the man is a person of moral integrity, the beard will grow back over time and people will see the person for who he is.  (For women it was presented as her hair)  It was a book written about 400 years ago but still holds truth today. 

   

[Ilovemylife]

I'm sorry to hear that.  Your story sounds pinful as well. I guess my biggest concern are the kids. My question to you is ... .if your wife is borderline then she is intolerable.  That means the kids especially the older ones ones should rebel against her. Why don't they see that?  Why don't they see that she was so mean and rude and desrespectful that you left her.   I'm so kind to my kids and I talk to them calmly and tell them I love them every 5 mins and kiss them. I know they will fear her just as I did and quite frankly still do. But we all just want to leave that energy behind and gravitate toward the light ,, no?

[Ilovemylife]

well today was a disaster.
it was back to school and I took my two older kids to meet kindergarten and 2nd grade teachers. lots of people at the school. my ex came to me and started yelling and screaming and using f words and cursing at my parents and ranting and causing a scene. i had read here that the best response is "if, then"  so i said if you act like this i will walk away. and i did. it was interesting because i was anticipating crazy and i think the reading is paying off.
my two kids were shocked. especially my 8 year old. 10 mins later i walked back and she turned and said be a good dog and go fetch some water. i looked at her and said don't talk to me like that and i walked away.
she kept walking with the kids holding their hands. 10 mins later i walked up to them and called to my son and i said go play little man  he just bolted. looked at my 8 yo and she was sitting there with her head down. i said princess go play she said no.  i walked up to her 9 year old cousin and said go get her and play, she replied no she is really sad.
about 30 min later she walked up to the playground and started yelling again. her sister in law went to stop her and she started yelling at her too. then she throng my 8 year old at me and said here take her to your fking prostitutes and she left. my daughter was crying in my arms and kept saying why doesn't mommy love me. i just kept telling her she does my love, sometimes adults say things they don't mean when they are angry.

i realize now that her main goal in this world is to hurt me and destroy me and she will hurt the kids to do it. she said to me today that my daughter will be a pregnant teen because of me.
my daughter son and I went shopping and the day went by fine and my 8 yo was a happy little kid again. at night before bed we meditated a little and i talked to her about being strong and how we can't discuss adult problems in front of children.
she agreed and went to bed.


this type of behaviors is unacceptable. she is not fit to be a mother and she is blessed with 4 beautiful kids.
i asked my lawyer and he says see if anyone will testify. I think i don't want to get people involved with this crazy person.
i don't know if thats the right thing to do
imagine if i walk up to a random person and say would you testify in court for me?

i'm actually proud of myself that i kept it together.

tomorrow is the first day of school. she will be there as well to take over custody and greet the kids.  hoping it goes well... .

[ForeverDad]

Did you have a voice recorder in your pocket?  If not, why not?  It is predictable that a mentally unbalanced person would more likely act out when there is no concern of consequences.  Think, of all her rages, aren't the worst rants and rages in relative privacy (her and you and kids) behind closed doors at home, while traveling in vehicles, or less overtly in public?  That's a pattern most here have seen over and over.  After 2 years of divorce process and nearly 6 years of post-divorce actions, my court finally addressed it and in a court decision bluntly referenced her behaviors as Mother disparaging to Father even in the presence of the child.

Courts usually don't listen to recordings.  They might not have the time, hearings are often a half hour or maybe an hour.  There might be some  on proving they were genuine and not edited in your favor.  And especially court assumes that the high emotions in divorce will give way to cooler heads in time, most divorces do but then they're not dealing with acting out PDs.

However police, custody evaluators and other associated professionals might listen and make decisions or recommendations factoring in the other parent's poor or horrible behaviors.

Regarding these latest events, you probably ought to have sought out the principal, school counselor or other school official.  They definitely do not tolerate scenes at school with other families around.  They probably would have done something to defuse or end the confrontations.

This reminds me of my case.  During the temp order my ex had temp custody so she enrolled our son in her school district.  In the final decree I became Residential Parent. There was only a couple months left of the kindergarten school year so I filed for Open Enrollment for him to stay  to finish the year.  They said No Problem.  But my ex was very controlling and created scenes at school on pick ups, On my days I had asked daycare to pick up our son.  One day my ex really raged at the principal or vice principal.  I got a call that the school board had decided to reject my application and with just 5 weeks left of the school year I was given ONE DAY to register him in my school district.  Of course, my ex never apologized for getting our son kicked out of kindergarten, after all, she was Mother and what she demanded meant more than other professionals following Father's legal instructions.

[Sluggo]

That means the kids especially the older ones ones should rebel against her. Why don't they see that?  Why don't they see that she was so mean and rude and desrespectful that you left her.   I'm so kind to my kids and I talk to them calmly and tell them I love them every 5 mins and kiss them. I know they will fear her just as I did and quite frankly still do. But we all just want to leave that energy behind and gravitate toward the light ,, no?

It sounds so familiar your story... .   I felt like I over compensated by always telling the kids how much I loved them so they would not feel the hurt that my wife would do. 

Why don't they rebel... .  It took me 16 years of marriage to.  I was scared.  I was scared of her.  I also longed for the good times... .always waiting.  I have described it like the waves (her rages) were very severe but the time between the waves (when she was peaceful and times fun) were great.  Over the years, the time between the waves got shorter and shorter.  the waves came one after another in the end.  I just broke and felt like I was drowning.  I could not do it again. 

Maybe the kids will have that same experience.  They also long for that time when she if nice to them and feel if they can just act a certain way, then she will treat them well.   They have become her emotional caretaker. 

[ForeverDad]

It is known that children who are raised in high conflict homes themselves are likely to repeat that same pattern in the future in their own homes.  I think a term for it is generational patterns.  Yes, the children will say they don't want the bickering and fighting but then they grow up and that's the examples they drift into, their comfort zone.

That is why providing a stable and loving home for the children is so important.  Staying in the conflict and sharing in the conflict just isn't a good example.

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Staying together would mean that's the only example of home life they would have known — discord, conflict, invalidation, alienation attempts, overall craziness, etc.  Over 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives going forward, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.  And some of the flying monkeys too.

[GaGrl]

My DH's children spent their teens with DH and his then-wife (uNPD/BPD) at the most contentious point in the marriage. The children do see it for what it is, eventually. All three  of DH's children asked why he didn't divorce their mother... .she eventually left to live with her current boyfriend.

It's much more difficult for the children to see if for what it is when they are younger. They have a limited frame of reference as to what a healthy marriage and family look like, and the fear factor and intimidation from the PD parent is overwhelming.

[livednlearned]

Hi Ilovemylife,

Welcome to the site 

I'm sorry you're going through this, and that your kids are so painfully in the middle.

Good for you that you walked away! Standing up to a bully (unfortunately the kids' own mother) will be a good role model for your children. You showed self-respect and self-control, and were assertive without hurting anyone. They need to see that from you, and it will give them hope that, eventually, they can do that too.

Have you read anything by Dr. Craig Childress about parental alienation? This is what your wife is doing to the kids, and it's insidious. Fortunately, you are here reading and learning, and there are skills that can really help.

Another book that may be useful is Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison.

You'll need the communication skills and specific phrases to offset the worst of the alienation.

One thing, if I can make a suggestion (learned this one the hard way... .)

my daughter was crying in my arms and kept saying why doesn't mommy love me. i just kept telling her she does my love

It's best to let your daughter decide if she feels loved by her mom. That truth will be between your daughter, and her mom.

Your instinct is to comfort her, I know. The best way is to validate how she feels. "I understand, honey. When someone I love yells at me and is mean to me, it's so confusing. Why don't you come here and let me hug you, and if you want to tell me how you feel, I'm here to listen."

She desperately needs to know that her feelings are real and accurate. Her mom probably doesn't allow her to have her own feelings, and if you want to nip parental alienation, it's going to be critical that your daughter has her own emotional reality separate from what mom says is true.

[ForeverDad]

LnL is so right, saying nice things about a person who can throw hurt and pain around like candy, and has just done so, is not Validating, confusing as LnL wrote, however well-intentioned it was meant to be.  Be the island in the storm, a place of refuge, comfort and guidance on how to deal with it all.

Of course you don't paint the other parent black, that's what the disordered parent does, all good or all bad, little gray area in between.  Think of how you would correct a child, you wouldn't say the child is bad, it's the actions that were bad.  Still, it is bad behavior after all and that means something.  If the bad actions continued then that's where you carefully adjust how you describe the person.

Also, validation needs to be age appropriate.  What you would say to a young child would be a bit different and at a different level than to an older teen.

[takingandsending]

my daughter was crying in my arms and kept saying why doesn't mommy love me. i just kept telling her she does my love, sometimes adults say things they don't mean when they are angry.

This is brutally hard ... .for you, for your daughter, for anyone with an ounce of compassion reading this. And believe me, I have told my sons the same lies. But I don't anymore. It actually invalidates your D8's experience. She is in pain, scared, sad and blaming herself. Validate that. Try not to make excuses for your wife's behavior to your kids. That just adds to the confusion they already feel. I did it to gain some relief from the amount of guilt I felt for bringing my kids into the world in this f----d up situation. Now, I say things like, "It hurts when someone we love does ____. If you were angry at a friend, how would you talk to them/what would you do?"

Are your children in counseling? They really need support that is neutral and just for them to help sort out their feelings.