Update… Roller coaster relationship…

[Mr. Kelly]

Look at the prior note from Once Removed about your happiness being somewhat dependent on her actions, affection..attitude towards you and/or the r/s.

I think there is a LOT there...I would hope you would respond directly to that thought.

Plus..look at what I've highlighted above...

Words can be really important.  I believe you when you say you were not "forcing" intimacy.  I think that only scratches the surface.

I would bet a large amount of money that she gets the vibe loud and clear...LOOUUUUUUDDDDD and CLEAR...that you wish there were more.

What I think you are missing is not a rejection of intimacy...but her saying LOUD AND CLEAR...that she wants casual (or other relaxed description)...

No evaluations of where she is or isn't kissed...no evaluations of how quickly she calls, or doesn't...texts or doesn't..is online and ignoring you or isn't...

That part is clear to me...(what she is saying NO to)...chilled and relaxed is the way forward.

Send her a postcard from your trip...ENJOY the heck out of yourself and your trip...minimize the amount of "evaluation" you do about "status" of the r/s.

Best,

FF

Well, yes, I do believe that she hears me loudly and clearly… I’m not sure I am drooling all over her, so I don’t think she can think I’m coming on too strongly with, which I haven’t been.

If anything, it’s probably been way more me that’s holding the fort together, by being calm, and easy-going and rational, and NOT making her feel forced into anything.  I’ve probably done that better with her than I have with anyone in my life. I think I’ve been nothing but chill. And fun. As fun as I can possibly be, anyway.

As far as her making a statement that all she wants is chill, well… I think she would tell you that she probably wants the same thing that I do, and that is a committed and decent relationship with a nice guy. I think she knows that I can do that, from experience.

I think it comes back to the trust issue again, and I think she thinks that we are going to go down the same path way… She’s going to spew her reality, I’m going to say something that she will perceive as being contradicting, and she’s going to feel invalidated.  That’s mostly her perception of it, but I think that’s what she believes… That’s all it has almost ever taken.

One could have the debate as to whether or not what she’s experiencing right now it’s like being in a cult. I somewhat believe that that is what is happening with her. Her brain just doesn’t seem to be taking things in accurately (Whatever accurately means these days).  Maybe I could say the same about myself, who knows. It almost feels like she’s a little possessed, which would not be hugely unlikely with someone suffering that kind of difficulty.  Her eyes begin to look almost terrified, and her whole demeanor gets really paranoid. It’s like she goes into a trance.  I’m sure many folks on here have experienced that.

So… That’s a tough one

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[formflier]

 
  Zero real bonding, no intimacy, 

Hey...this is specific to these comments...and also generally applicable to your entire approach.

I would encourage you to research...read...do deep thinking over several days about what appears to be ...

Dichotomous thinking...(or more simply black or white)

"real" or "not real" (for bonding).  no intimacy or "yes" intimacy.

She is wanting to exist in "nuance"...(a little bit of intimacy...like a kiss on the cheek)

I bring this up because it's been a struggle (and likely will for my life)..for me, especially when my wife dysregulates. 

So when I "catch" myself thinking black and white...it's a marker for me to chill..relax..take deep breathing seriously and give things time for nuance to be observed.

It also affects my mood. 

Much different to ruminate over and try to problem solve...

1.  My wife hates me my r/s is not intimate at all

compared to

2.  I wish we had been closer this past weekend

(a very real...recent example in my life...the brew ha ha only lasted about a day and a half because I was deliberate about "not participating".

Please...we are not asking you to defend yourself or explain how you are NOT forcing intimacy or such things.

We are asking you to "for the sake of argument and the r/s"...try out a point of view for a while and deliberately alter your actions and though processes for a period of time...and then evaluate results.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Hey...this is specific to these comments...and also generally applicable to your entire approach.

I would encourage you to research...read...do deep thinking over several days about what appears to be ...

Dichotomous thinking...(or more simply black or white)

"real" or "not real" (for bonding).  no intimacy or "yes" intimacy.

She is wanting to exist in "nuance"...(a little bit of intimacy...like a kiss on the cheek)

I bring this up because it's been a struggle (and likely will for my life)..for me, especially when my wife dysregulates. 

So when I "catch" myself thinking black and white...it's a marker for me to chill..relax..take deep breathing seriously and give things time for nuance to be observed.

It also affects my mood. 

Much different to ruminate over and try to problem solve...

1.  My wife hates me my r/s is not intimate at all

compared to

2.  I wish we had been closer this past weekend

(a very real...recent example in my life...the brew ha ha only lasted about a day and a half because I was deliberate about "not participating".

Please...we are not asking you to defend yourself or explain how you are NOT forcing intimacy or such things.

We are asking you to "for the sake of argument and the r/s"...try out a point of view for a while and deliberately alter your actions and though processes for a period of time...and then evaluate results.

Best,

FF

I appreciate your thoughts. But I’m not sure I follow.

It’s not me that’s black-and-white thinking, that’s for sure.

A week ago, she was all in, and her intimacy was all over the place… Something clearly happened, and things have changed. I can’t change her.

I have taken a different approach. I’m not forcing her. I’m not trying to convince her of anything. I haven’t even been the one reaching out most of the time.

I don’t really know what differently I could or could have done.  Here may actually lie the answer. I likely couldn’t have done anything differently.

If anything, I have gotten stronger in how I am in her presence. I have read recently that this is sometimes what can cause borderlines to discard… that’s pretty much what it feels like.  If they start to sense that their partner is becoming stronger and more independent. Maybe less codependent… that’s when the end may be near.

[formflier]

Please...we are not asking you to defend yourself or explain how you are NOT forcing intimacy or such things.

We are asking you to "for the sake of argument and the r/s"...try out a point of view for a while and deliberately alter your actions and though processes for a period of time...and then evaluate results.

It’s not me that’s black-and-white thinking, that’s for sure.
 

Are you able to set aside your judgment/opinion about your level of black and white thinking...and engage in a conversation about the possibility you do this, but are not yet aware.

Hint...I see black and white thinking...in your denial of black and white thinking.  Do you see it?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Well, it depends what you are referring to in regards to black-and-white thinking.

Do I sometimes fear that the bottom is falling out of this relationship? Often times I do. That’s not black-and-white thinking. I think that’s reality.

But reality doesn’t apply when dealing with a BPD partner.

And if you are referring to whether or not there is intimacy or no intimacy, well, it’s a pretty stark contrast to when she’s doing OK to when she is not. That’s reality as well. Whether she comes and sleeps in my bed or not is reality. That’s not black-and-white thinking.

Whether I believe her political stance or not. I try to understand what she is talking about, and I get her points, and I go with those. But for the most part, I think she’s in mental trouble. That’s not black-and-white thinking, although that’s a judgment.

I’m still not really sure where you are trying to go with this, FF. 

I think that you are suggesting that I may be going from pole to pole with this… That I swing one way or the other. That may be true, but what’s in front of me Steers that.  Am I always correct in thinking that she will be gone before too long, no, I’m not always correct. That’s reality, also, I’m not always correct. Borderlines defy typical thinking patterns. 

Most of the time, I think my assessment of what’s going on with her is  fairly accurate. I haven’t been wrong that many times, other than the fact that she usually comes back after splitting.  I’ve been wrong every time with that.

[formflier]

I’m still not really sure where you are trying to go with this, FF. 
 

Yep...so let's evaluate "reality".  As you present it, where is the middle ground?   Do you allow for 1/2 reality to be ok?

Might take a couple back and forths...but I think your may "see" black and white in a more nuanced perspective.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Well…

I was out playing music last night and my lady friend texted me out of the blue and said she wanted to talk to me later.  It sounded serious. I tried to encourage her to tell me what was going on before that time, but she seemed rather curt and disinterested.

When I got home, I called her, and for two hours, I was subjected to what was likely the worst emotional and verbal abuse that I have ever encountered in my entire life.  She was entirely hostile, mean, condescending and nasty pretty much the whole two hours. There was virtually zero that I could say that wasn’t thrown back as a weapon of condescension, hatred and meanness.

I couldn’t figure out how to defuse it. What to say. Zero I said did anything but made her angry and worse.

Most of it stemmed from the conversation we had 10 days ago, when I told her that I felt out of sorts here, and that I didn’t feel like I had a sense of family or connection here. I even thought later that she may have thought I meant with her, So I told her that I wasn’t referring to her, and I was referring to my feeling connected to my environment socially and communally.

She said that if I was feeling that way, it must mean that I didn’t feel that with her. She’s right, but likely not for the reasons she thinks. It’s because her and I have broken up about 15 times, and I have endured similar wraths almost as many times. That doesn’t make one feel a huge sense of potential connectedness.  But as I’ve heard many times, borderlines are often smart enough to be able to figure out connections to things that may not be obvious. She knows I hold back, and she knows that I walk on eggshells with her. She senses it. This is what it looks like to her.

The other item that came up from that conversation is the fact that I said to her that I wanted to go back to Europe and visit the country and place at which my 13-year-old daughter came into the world as the result of in vitro fertilization. She went on and on during the conversation how inappropriate it was that I would even suggest that she would go somewhere that had that kind of connection with my ex-wife. And how could I possibly even bring that up?  To her, That was a huge insult, and she went on and on about how she would never ever go anywhere that had that kind of connection with my ex-wife, and how can I possibly ever believe that she would want to do something like that?  In truth, it was a fantastic place that holds and important part of my heart… And I don’t really even think of my ex-wife when I think about going back there. She can’t trust that. She can’t hear that. She wouldn’t. I was an a*hole  for even bringing it up.  I apparently should have known better.

As usual, every single infraction came up, and it led her to this notion that I have done nothing in the two years I have known her to make her feel truly loved… I have never done any of the things that I said that I would do with her and I, and she even went as far to say name one thing that I’ve done to make her feel truly loved.

She said I was an awful boyfriend, incapable of understanding her feelings, negligent in giving her what she needs, and most importantly, failing to move forward and always living in my past. They are all familiar themes. This was the worst, I think maybe even by far.

Of course, everything was my fault, anything I said was allegedly my attempt not to take responsibility for my own poor behavior.  Most of this stuff for said with a raised and nasty voice, and it went on, and on, and on.

I went in the house quite late, probably 1 AM, and really wasn’t certain that I could ever speak to this girl again. Ironically, she didn’t actually break up with me. She said many things in the past tense, as if she had no choice to break up with me, which is what she said numerous times… Because of my behavior. I was giving her no choice, apparently. I’ve been that bad.

She said my demeanor was cold and calculated and dispassionate, even though I repeatedly asked her what I could do to help. She couldn’t hear it.

I guess I will spend a lengthy time trying to understand if there’s any grain of truth to any of the vile bile that came out of that girl’s mouth last night.

I continue to get caught in the trap of believing that the better I get at handling her triggers, maybe the less She will go into these evil nasty places.

So, for those of you that have encountered stuff like this, how do you get past someone trashing you so venomously and so deeply, and how do you prevent yourself from feeling completely abused and tortured?

Part of me doesn’t really know what to think, other than to eradicate this girl completely from my life.  On the other hand, ironically,  there’s a part of me that doesn’t think she deserves this. As much as I endured two hours of an absolutely distasteful despicable human being, there’s part of me that wants to understand and help. But I can’t. There is a decent girl in there somewhere.  I guess you could say that about an axe murderer, as well.

[formflier]

So, for those of you that have encountered stuff like this, how do you get past someone trashing you so venomously and so deeply, and how do you prevent yourself from feeling completely abused and tortured?


Part of me doesn’t really know what to think, other than to eradicate this girl completely from my life.  

Don't participate in it.  Instead of 2 hours...2 minutes.  "Oh my babe..I'm not able to have this conversations now.  I'm going to brunch tomorrow and I can talk more then."  (be relaxed about this)

Please stop figuring out how to diffuse it.  It simply doesn't work that way.


Last:  The bolded piece is an example of "dichotomous thinking" (she is either in or out).  Would you rather use the term "dichotomous" instead of "black and white"?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Don't participate in it.  Instead of 2 hours...2 minutes.  "Oh my babe..I'm not able to have this conversations now.  I'm going to brunch tomorrow and I can talk more then."  (be relaxed about this)

Please stop figuring out how to diffuse it.  It simply doesn't work that way.


Last:  The bolded piece is an example of "dichotomous thinking" (she is either in or out).  Would you rather use the term "dichotomous" instead of "black and white"?

Best,

FF

You are exactly right. On every account. I knew I shouldn’t try to defuse it or validate my behavior, and I did both. I did a lot of validating of her behavior, which I’m getting better at, as well, but not sure how effective it was, since it was likely drowned out by my own attempted rationale.

I also knew that I shouldn’t keep her on the phone like that. About 20 minutes in, when I could tell it was going to be long and painful, I said this to her very calmly… “You know, I don’t think we’re going to be able to come to any solutions tonight, so here’s what I’d like to do… I’m going on vacation on Saturday, and that will give us both a chance to think about what we are saying here. IF, at some point, you’d like to reach out and continue this conversation, I would be more than happy to hear from you.”

Her response to that was something like this… in a very agitated and angry way… “Seriously? That’s so typically you, you’re just going to shirk responsibility and avoid the consequences of your own behavior. Rich.”..

I think there was zero that I could say over that two hours that made any difference.

How does one navigate away from something like this? She can’t be thinking anything proactively at this point.

The one thing that I did think seemed to begin to work was I asked her “why don’t we ask each other three questions that we would like answered, and perhaps something we would like from each other that might be helpful to make us feel like We are in a better space”. That seemed to calm her a bit, but her first question, and it’s the only one that we got through, was “what does it mean to me to be a good friend”.  I think that came from me, over time, telling her that she was my best friend. I tried to answer the question, but she literally laughed in my face because she said that I wasn’t capable of doing any of the things that I was talking about.  She insulted my memory, she insulted my character, there was very little that she didn’t dig into in a hugely antagonizing and destructive way. Can you tell how triggered I feel?

How do I come back from that kind of hatred?

[formflier]

How does one navigate away from something like this? She can’t be thinking anything proactively at this point.
 

Please read my prior post...how do you think I would answer this question?  I agree she isn't thinking proactively.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Please read my prior post...how do you think I would answer this question?  I agree she isn't thinking proactively.

Best,

FF

Well, I get it. She’s not thinking clearly. Well, right now, I am. She is likely an undiagnosed and unwilling BPD sufferer.  If this is true, she can’t help what she’s thinking and feeling and doing. That doesn’t change what’s best for me, though.

I guess I have known all along with this is what could happen, and has happened over and over and over for the last two years. Maybe, naïvely, I have believed that perhaps with love and kindness, her and I could overcome this tendency of hers turn into the vicious beast.

At this point, I have probably gone from the search and rescue stage to the recovery stage. No it’s not a matter of understanding as much as it is a matter of if and what I should do about it. I have kind of resigned myself to bowing out, unless I hear back from her, and I suspect it could be a while.

The telephone call didn’t end with a clear break up.  I don’t know if I can or should put myself back into that kind of potential situation. I need to be able to function, and being super sensitive and easily triggered myself, each and every one of these episodes of hers has sent me into my own tailspin. Granted, each one has been getting easier to manage, but this one seems like it may be hard to overcome. She said so many destructive things that hit my core, and they seemed so premeditated and targeted.

I guess I get it. That’s the goal, in her moment, to send the penetrating missiles and the heat sinking rockets into my soul to drive me away.

I guess my wonder at this point would be… should I be moving on or even be thinking about any of this anymore?  Can couples get past this kind of damage and function properly? Can she get past something like this?

And lastly, can she fully appreciate what she has done, at this point?  Will she be waking up in the next day or two putting together the reality that she self-destructive in a major way? Or will she continue to see her reality and she presented it?

I guess there’s a possibility that she has seen the writing on the wall from her own vantage point and instead of being able to find the strength to break up peacefully, this is what has come out of her… Rage and nastiness rather than a peaceful parting?  Do borderlines ever resort to this when they know it’s not right for them?  Does there ever come a time when a borderline is so stricken with torment that they just come can’t come back from their own self deception?

I just don’t know what to do anymore. I’ve told myself several times over the last few break ups that I can’t continue to do this. At what point does someone throw in the towel?

[Mr. Kelly]

Ouch… blocked on Facebook.   It’s been a long while since that’s happened.  

I wasn’t sure what to think after this split.  I guess I was expecting to check back in after awhile, since there was no formal real breakup.  Or, I was really hoping she would reach out after the dust settled.  It’s only been 3 days.

She never said anything about us breaking up. Maybe since I haven’t reached out, she’s thinking I am being a PLEASE READ.   It seemed  that she was trying to force me to change my behavior to her favor, but I wasn’t really giving he much to go on, and she constantly was saying, “so… this is just more of you avoiding taking responsibility for any of the things you’ve done to me.  That’s your typical response.”  There seemed to be zero that could settle her unrest.  

Maybe I pushed too hard this time around.

I was pretty aggressive with her on our final phone conversation… I repeatedly said… “if you really believe all of these terrible things you are saying to me, then you know what you have do, and maybe I’m not the right one for you”.  She was silent each time after that…and said something like… “I don’t want to do this, but you are giving me no choice, because of your repeated behavior.”

I just don’t know what, if anything, to do.  Part of me thinks this is just another split, and once she settles, she may swing back around.  Could this be the final discard?  Would be so sad, and so unnecessary.  

How do I handle this?  I kind of feel that if I reach out to her this time around, it will enable the same repeated cycles.  

Given that this is the first time she has blocked during a split in months, I can assume she’s still splitting, so reaching out now may not be a good thing.  I hate to think of her suffering right now like she may be.

What would a reasonable move be for me to make to at least lower the likelihood of continued abuse?

What do you think could be going on with her?

I’m torn.

[Skip]

What would a reasonable move be for me to make to at least lower the likelihood of continued abuse?

Kelly, you are dipping into co-dependency in this relationship and she has her own issues and its not working. There can't be two emotional and needy people in a relationship otherwise they will be constantly in conflict over not getting their needs met.

Does that seem like what is happening?

For example, you two have political differences. She wants you to validate hers (needy) and you want her to validate yours (needy). She is not going to change her views. Neither are you. There is no point in having this tug of war. Can you just unilaterally let it go? If she want to rant about the pandemic or the Rose Garden flowers - just go with the flow. Don't try to police her thinking or ask her to change it to protect your feelings.  Just go with the flow.

As you know, I suspect with good evidence, that I have annoyed my lady friend… By offering my own perspective, albeit gently, which contradicted her worldview. Guilty as charged.

So, I gave her until mid afternoon yesterday to see if she would reach out on her own, which she often does. No go. So, I finally took the bull by the horns and texted her… And it took her an hour and a half to respond, even though I could see that she had been on Facebook messenger for a good chunk of that time. That means there was likely not a great reason to not respond for that period of time, which was quite unusual, other than she was being passive aggressive.

Next time she is upset, be patient and allow her time to come back when she is ready. If she wants to pout, that is her prerogative. Give her space - you will be surprised how well that works.

It's childish that she blocked you. But she knows it sends a message and you flip out. It's kinda "high school."  The best thing you could do is to never say anything about after she unblocks you.

[Mr. Kelly]

Kelly, you are dipping into co-dependency in this relationship and she has her own issues and its not working. There can't be two emotional and needy people in a relationship otherwise they will be constantly in conflict over not getting their needs met.

Does that seem like what is happening?

For example, you two have political differences. She wants you to validate hers (needy) and you want her to validate yours (needy). She is not going to change her views. Neither are you. There is no point in having this tug of war. Can you just unilaterally let it go? If she want to rant about the pandemic or the Rose Garden flowers - just go with the flow. Don't try to police her thinking or ask her to change it to protect your feelings.  Just go with the flow.

Next time she is upset, be patient and allow her time to come back when she is ready. If she wants to pout, that is her prerogative. Give her space - you will be surprised how well that works.

It's childish that she blocked you. But she knows it sends a message and you flip out. It's kinda "high school."  The best thing you could do is to never say anything about after she unblocks you.

Thank you skip.  I appreciate and value your input.  It’s much needed.

Yes, I’m needy, and maybe she senses it, but I’ve been pretty good at being independent, so I can’t say.

I don’t really pressure her in any way about her politics and pandemic.  I used to.  I think she just wants to vent, and as FF says, maybe test whether I can respect her perspectives.  I think I’ve done really well with it in the last 8 months, and only occasionally gently offered my perspective on anything, so I don’t think my pressuring or policing her ideology=gird has been much of an issue, as of late.

I think she just can’t get over my previous “infractions” and differences, as a whole, even if mostly created in her head.

Last time I saw her, she said she’d talk to me before I left for vacation yesterday, but I stopped reaching out to her with my usual daily hellos, so I suspect she felt I was distancing, which I was.  I think that likely exacerbated her unrest, until her nasty split call on Thursday night.   

She didn’t indicate a true break up, I think she was trying to rebalance the power structure, but when that didn’t seem to be working, and my not reaching back out after that call may likely make her think I’m distancing more.

I did say to her that she was making it hard for me to want to continue trying with all the things she as saying to me.  Can’t reason with her, though.

So, my usual strategy has been to wait indefinitely until she reaches out, which is usually by means of her sending a nasty final breakup text to end it. 

So… is it likely she’ll reach back out? 

This is probably the 15th breakup in 2 years.  Maybe enough is enough.

[Mr. Kelly]

It's childish that she blocked you. But she knows it sends a message and you flip out. It's kinda "high school."  The best thing you could do is to never say anything about after she unblocks you.

Interestingly, I’ve never admitted to her, ever, that I’ve noticed that she blocked me.

Once, she told me she did it in an effort to forget me for awhile and not keep seeing my profile icon come up on her screen… I’m sure it’s painful, since I haven’t contacted her, she may even think I’m done with her… or she’s pissed that I stood up to her fairly firmly during that last call.  I can’t even imagine what’s going on in her head.  There’s a huge chance that she actually believes the ridiculous drivel that came out of her mouth that night. 

Do you think she’s capable of actually believing the awful stuff she said to me?  It’s hard to imagine.

[once removed]

There’s a huge chance that she actually believes the ridiculous drivel that came out of her mouth that night.

Do you think she’s capable of actually believing the awful stuff she said to me?  

we all had/have girlfriends/wives that said/say mean, nasty things. brutal things.

we all responded to them by getting caught up in them, being hurt, and reacting from that position.

i dont mean to minimize it. what she said is hurtful, and youre entitled to that hurt. this is a great place to vent it. we get it. i said my own share of hurtful things back. awful things.

if you want this relationship to work you are caught up in things and responding to them in a way, every one of which is fueling the conflict, rather than shifting your approach to resolving it. whether its politics, whether its who contacts who when, whether its who makes/keeps plans, whether its who hurt whom more. its that opposing need Skip talked about.

I can’t even imagine what’s going on in her head.

youre stuck in a mindset that is self defeating. see past it, and whats going on in her head will seem to simpler to read. 

[Mr. Kelly]

we all had/have girlfriends/wives that said/say mean, nasty things. brutal things.

we all responded to them by getting caught up in them, being hurt, and reacting from that position.

i dont mean to minimize it. what she said is hurtful, and youre entitled to that hurt. this is a great place to vent it. we get it. i said my own share of hurtful things back. awful things.

if you want this relationship to work you are caught up in things and responding to them in a way, every one of which is fueling the conflict, rather than shifting your approach to resolving it. whether its politics, whether its who contacts who when, whether its who makes/keeps plans, whether its who hurt whom more. its that opposing need Skip talked about.

youre stuck in a mindset that is self defeating. see past it, and whats going on in her head will seem to simpler to read. 

As usual OR, I appreciate your thoughts.

That’s just the thing… I’ve never said a mean thing or a hostile thing to her since I’ve known her.  I do try to convince her that what she is accusing me of is untrue, but not by arguing or accusing her of falsehoods, but by gently confirming my real motivations for my thoughts or actions.  I’ve tried really hard not to do that, but she sucks me in each and every time.  It feels that if I stop she’ll be proven correct.

So… I’m not entirely sure how to change my mindset and look at things from another perspective… what does that look like?

I do feel like I am considerably better at depersonalizing her accusations , although I keep getting sucked into her splits. 

I’ve gotten so much better at simply listening to her political challenges, and I pretty much never argue with her, and I always try to validate common ground.  I do sometimes offer a gentle alternative perspective, but our political and COVID conversations seem to not be as contentious any more.  There have been times during the last month she has said she appreciated me letting her vent..

I just don’t know what else to do.  She finds one thing after another to use as bait and tools to push me away.

I think she may have expected me to reach out to her after her splitting call, since there was no real breakup this time around, and her demeanor was mostly her hostile attempt to say “I need you to not be doing these things anymore because you are proving my points when you do” or something to that effect.

I just didn’t have it in me to respond for the next few days… first because I was hugely busy, and second, because I pretty much told her I was going on vacation the day after next, and if she wanted to call me up and talk more about it, she was welcome to do so.  She said i seemed cold and calculated and disconnected… that seems strange to me, because that’s not how I felt in my heart.  It was hard to say really gushy things to someone who is basically yelling at you with vile accusations.

I just don’t know what more to do or say to her that I haven’t already.  I’m actually afraid to contact her on fear of more abuse.  That is hard to manage.

So, I guess my main wonder now is… should I just wait this out?  Some of my friends think she’ll be reaching back out again soon, likely with more hostility, just like every other time.  But also just like every other time, Im not convinced she will.  Should I be expecting that she’ll get by this, like she always does, or should I expect that she’ll finally reach her permanent breaking point?

[formflier]

  I’ve never said a mean thing or a hostile thing to her since I’ve known her.

I do try to convince her that what she is accusing me of is untrue

Do you understand that the experiences what I bolded as "mean and hostile"?

We are not asking your to defend you actions, we are asking you to take a fresh look at your actions and understand how they are fueling MORE CONFLICT.

Best,

FF

, but not by arguing or accusing her of falsehoods, but by gently confirming my real motivations for my thoughts or actions.  I’ve tried really hard not to do that, but she sucks me in each and every time.  It feels that if I stop she’ll be proven correct.

So… I’m not entirely sure how to change my mindset and look at things from another perspective… what does that look like?

I do feel like I am considerably better at depersonalizing her accusations , although I keep getting sucked into her splits. 

I’ve gotten so much better at simply listening to her political challenges, and I pretty much never argue with her, and I always try to validate common ground.  I do sometimes offer a gentle alternative perspective, but our political and COVID conversations seem to not be as contentious any more.  There have been times during the last month she has said she appreciated me letting her vent..

I just don’t know what else to do.  She finds one thing after another to use as bait and tools to push me away.

I think she may have expected me to reach out to her after her splitting call, since there was no real breakup this time around, and her demeanor was mostly her hostile attempt to say “I need you to not be doing these things anymore because you are proving my points when you do” or something to that effect.

I just didn’t have it in me to respond for the next few days… first because I was hugely busy, and second, because I pretty much told her I was going on vacation the day after next, and if she wanted to call me up and talk more about it, she was welcome to do so.  She said i seemed cold and calculated and disconnected… that seems strange to me, because that’s not how I felt in my heart.  It was hard to say really gushy things to someone who is basically yelling at you with vile accusations.

I just don’t know what more to do or say to her that I haven’t already.  I’m actually afraid to contact her on fear of more abuse.  That is hard to manage.

So, I guess my main wonder now is… should I just wait this out?  Some of my friends think she’ll be reaching back out again soon, likely with more hostility, just like every other time.  But also just like every other time, Im not convinced she will.  Should I be expecting that she’ll get by this, like she always does, or should I expect that she’ll finally reach her permanent breaking point?


[/quote]

[Mr. Kelly]

Do you understand that the experiences what I bolded as "mean and hostile"?

I do… she perceives my explanations as hostile.  She asks me, I answer, and she doesn’t believe my answers.  Counterproductive.

Where do I go from here?  Give her time to chill or reach out?  I get contrasting opinions.

[formflier]

  She asks me, I answer, and she doesn’t believe my answers.  Counterproductive.

https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

Chill for a bit and consider this article. 

Look at your answer..."doesn't believe" and compare to invalidation...where I assure you that she heard and believed (on an emotional level)..your answer.

After reading the article, how does do you compare these concepts?

Best,

FF