Parenting/BPD question...how much should I let their own "logic" teach them?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So...D15 has the most BPDish stuff of any child.  She has obviously seen and experienced my wife's methods when emotionally upset.


Here is the basic "logic".  D15 believes since she "mentioned" the possibility that a third person might go on a horse trip with her and D23 this summer and I didn't object to it in that moment, that I tacitly gave my blessing to an additional person going and therefore can not in anyway object to this person going now.  That "restricting" the trip to just D15 and D23 is "punishment".

Worthy of a pause to see if anyone else picks up on an issue here.  I'm curious about others thoughts on D15 and D23 going on a month long horse trip and feeling like such a trip is "punishment" and they wouldn't be "happy".

Moving right along...

Before I ended a very interesting conversation last night (where D15 used/revealed this logic) I asked if she was comfortable applying that standard (that by mentioning something and the other person NOT refuting it is tacit acceptance and there is no difference between tacit acceptance and explicit permission to do something.

(ugg..that's hard to even write)

My plan for later today is to give her a chance to reaffirm the values and logic she wishes to apply to everyone (but for these purposes..it's really me and her) and then let her wrestle with the "trap" that she has fallen into.

I completely remember the conversation she is speaking about and I remember exactly why I breezed over her "mentioning" other things.  

I was in complete shock that she just revealed she had not one but 3 or 4 Cs in school.  As a result I had cancelled her ability to do extra work for money around the house and restricted other activities..so she only had to focus on school work.

Relevant history and explanation of "the trap":  In a discussion with her school counselor it came out that she had a C in math (about a week or two) before "the conversation".  While I was surprised..I knew she had been struggling in math and had taken extra effort so my entire parenting approach was one of "consoling and encouraging" her that sometimes our best efforts don't get the result we desire.

I would say things like "since it's just one C and you are doing good in the rest of school..it's important to keep this in perspective"  She agreed with me I had a point about keeping it in perspective.

There is lots of history here...but I've made a deliberate decision to have my teens bring me their grades and report on their grades...vice me poking around to verify.  Obviously the younger kids...I root around often.

So..at no point in time did I ask "D15 is this your only C?"  I did make numerous statements that she agreed with sometimes or was silent about sometimes about how "just one C" and statements about "all your other grades being ok" (as she reported they were).  Yes..it's been a long time...but we have actually defined "grades being ok" as B or above...but it has been a long time.

So...in the middle of a discussion about her making her arguments that she deserves another horse (in addition to the one she has)..she said something to the effect of "only a few Cs".

That brought the conversation to an all stop and I clarified the number of Cs for the last semester (Fall through Christmas of 2020).  It was at least three and maybe 4.  I wondered aloud how this was not a deception on her part, given the conversations we had for the past week or two.  She asserted that she was in no way responsible for correcting misstatements that other people make...and that nobody should ever be put in that position.


So...heads she wins..tails Daddy looses...basically shift your stanards to suit the outcome you  desire.  Uggg.

Is there a teaching point here?...or is that me wresting in the mud with teenage logic?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

So...D15 has the most BPDish stuff of any child.  She has obviously seen and experienced my wife's methods when emotionally upset.


Here is the basic "logic".  D15 believes since she "mentioned" the possibility that a third person might go on a horse trip with her and D23 this summer and I didn't object to it in that moment, that I tacitly gave my blessing to an additional person going and therefore can not in anyway object to this person going now.  That "restricting" the trip to just D15 and D23 is "punishment".

Worthy of a pause to see if anyone else picks up on an issue here.  I'm curious about others thoughts on D15 and D23 going on a month long horse trip and feeling like such a trip is "punishment" and they wouldn't be "happy".

Moving right along...

Before I ended a very interesting conversation last night (where D15 used/revealed this logic) I asked if she was comfortable applying that standard (that by mentioning something and the other person NOT refuting it is tacit acceptance and there is no difference between tacit acceptance and explicit permission to do something.

(ugg..that's hard to even write)

My plan for later today is to give her a chance to reaffirm the values and logic she wishes to apply to everyone (but for these purposes..it's really me and her) and then let her wrestle with the "trap" that she has fallen into.

I completely remember the conversation she is speaking about and I remember exactly why I breezed over her "mentioning" other things.  

I was in complete shock that she just revealed she had not one but 3 or 4 Cs in school.  As a result I had cancelled her ability to do extra work for money around the house and restricted other activities..so she only had to focus on school work.

Relevant history and explanation of "the trap":  In a discussion with her school counselor it came out that she had a C in math (about a week or two) before "the conversation".  While I was surprised..I knew she had been struggling in math and had taken extra effort so my entire parenting approach was one of "consoling and encouraging" her that sometimes our best efforts don't get the result we desire.

I would say things like "since it's just one C and you are doing good in the rest of school..it's important to keep this in perspective"  She agreed with me I had a point about keeping it in perspective.

There is lots of history here...but I've made a deliberate decision to have my teens bring me their grades and report on their grades...vice me poking around to verify.  Obviously the younger kids...I root around often.

So..at no point in time did I ask "D15 is this your only C?"  I did make numerous statements that she agreed with sometimes or was silent about sometimes about how "just one C" and statements about "all your other grades being ok" (as she reported they were).  Yes..it's been a long time...but we have actually defined "grades being ok" as B or above...but it has been a long time.

So...in the middle of a discussion about her making her arguments that she deserves another horse (in addition to the one she has)..she said something to the effect of "only a few Cs".

That brought the conversation to an all stop and I clarified the number of Cs for the last semester (Fall through Christmas of 2020).  It was at least three and maybe 4.  I wondered aloud how this was not a deception on her part, given the conversations we had for the past week or two.  She asserted that she was in no way responsible for correcting misstatements that other people make...and that nobody should ever be put in that position.


So...heads she wins..tails Daddy looses...basically shift your stanards to suit the outcome you  desire.  Uggg.

Is there a teaching point here?...or is that me wresting in the mud with teenage logic?

Best,

FF

[Fian]

I would stick to the rules and judge her accordingly.  It doesn't matter if she agrees with your rules.

"You are responsible to keep me informed on your grades.  You did not inform me you were getting 4 C's."
"You need my explicit permission for x, y, and z.  You never got it, and I am not giving it to you now."

It doesn't matter if her logic is consistent.  As her father you determine what is allowed, not her.  With a BPD type person, I think the last thing you want is to give them the idea that they can use creative logic to get what they want.

[worriedStepmom]

That's teenage logic, and you don't want to wrestle with that!

If it makes you feel better, I could have had similar conversations with my 15 year old, who has zero BPD characteristics.

15 year old teenage girls are ... difficult.

[formflier]

 That "restricting" the trip to just D15 and D23 is "punishment".

Anyone have any thoughts on this part of the story?

Best,

FF

[kells76]

Our 13 year old has similar traits -- though for her, the vibe I get is more "I don't want to feel shamed, so I don't exactly say if I didn't do the HW"

She also has strong motivation to "be treated like she's more grown up" -- that is currency for her.

After multiple tries of handing her responsibility for doing math HW and turning it in on time, it became clear that she wasn't ready for that level of responsibility, even though with her words she said she wanted "to be treated like she's mature".

I suspect some difference between her idea of "being treated as mature" (i.e. "I can stay at home alone unsupervised with technology for hours!") versus our idea of it ("You did your HW without prompting and turned it in early!")

When her mom reached out to say she'd had issues with SD13 not doing math, and after multiple instances of SD13 finding creative ways to sound like she was working on stuff when she wasn't, we just stopped letting SD13 have that grown up responsibility. She was going to get supervised "6 ways till Sunday" with lots of immediate and direct communication between "homework team members" (me, DH, Mom, Teacher, Teacher's Assistant, SPED professional 1, and SPED professional 2).

With everyone on the same page, and with the new expectation of "math HW gets done on time, and not doing it is not an option", SD13 has been more successful.

While your D15 is older, I wonder if losing the privilege of managing her HW life by herself, and entering a new world of "Dad, Mom, Teachers, and Assistants are all on an email thread discussing D15's HW" would do anything. Maybe even include D15 on the email chain? Something where it's clear that "all the adults are on the same page". If her currency is about "I can run my own life", then perhaps being included on that would give her that feeling of "I'm grown up enough to be in this discussion", which could be positive, but also it would shine a lot of light on the HW situation. And, if "everything is fine" with HW, then she should have nothing to worry about with seeing what all the adults discuss.

Food for thought...

kells76

[kells76]

D15 believes since she "mentioned" the possibility that a third person might go on a horse trip with her and D23 this summer

Well, my first thought here was she wanted a boy along.

[kells76]

That "restricting" the trip to just D15 and D23 is "punishment".

I sense a potential jiu jitsu move in here somewhere.

If going is punishment...

Then not going... would not be punishment?

Not sure the right time to use that one... but it's baked into her assertion.

[stolencrumbs]

Anyone have any thoughts on this part of the story?

Best,

FF

Might you be reading too much into this? I take it that the "punishment" here is not being able to do something she wants to do (bring along a friend.) I don't think it follows that she views going with just her sister as a bad thing. If you made her a nice meal and then told her she couldn't have dessert, she might call that punishment, but it wouldn't mean she thought the meal was bad, or that it was punishment to eat the meal without dessert.

[kells76]

Am I tracking correctly that the connection is:

Because of two issues related to HW (1, the actual grades, and 2, not being exactly forthcoming about them), she may lose the opportunity to have a friend go on the horse trip.

Is that it?

Or, is there some issue about the friend going, that is unrelated to HW (i.e., who the friend would be)?

[Cat Familiar]

Thinking back to my youth, I’m with kells; I think her plan is to sneak a boy along for the trip. How that would play out with her older sister is interesting. Have you spoken to your oldest daughter?

I did sneaky things like sending myself a letter from a “friend” (who was imaginary), inviting me to visit her at her house at the beach where she allegedly lived with her parents.

In truth, I was going van camping with my boyfriend.

[formflier]

Some history and the potential issue.


A couple of years ago D23..wait she is 24 now..good grief.  D24 graduated with a horse degree out in Montana.  D15 (12 or 13...I think 13) at the time was flown out there solo (FFw and I took the exact route by air earlier) and inquired along the way exactly how a minor travelling alone would be handled.  

D15 flew out and over about a month they brought the horses back, staying several days to a week at each location.  So when this trip came up my "model" for the trip was the same thing and when I expressed that "just like the other trip", D24 didn't exactly see it the same way.

Here is the exact issue that is now a "possibility".  There might be another horse available and D24 wants her boyfriend to come.

Somehow..everyone is shocked that I'm reluctant to send my 15 year old on a month long "date" with D24 and her boyfriend.

And honestly...if I had to decide right now.  I would say it would be good for D15 to stay home and experience consequences for deception an disrespect of authority.  Let D24 and her boyfriend go on the trip with the two horses we have and be done with it.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

So was D15 wanting to add a fourth person too, so she’d have a friend on this trip?

[formflier]

So was D15 wanting to add a fourth person too, so she’d have a friend on this trip?

No..my issue was adding D24 boyfriend to the trip. 

I should back up a bit.

My purpose in sending D15 out to Montana for the first trip was I thought it was a risk...but a risk worth taking for the purpose of helping mature both of them and having them realize through experience that girls can do hard things...without a man.

I'm speaking for myself here...not judging how others raise their girls or boys. 

From the get go I've done a bunch of very specific things with my girls for the purpose of showing them through experience that they are every bit as capable as a man.  Changing oil, fixing tractors and all that.

Frankly  D24 wasn't much of a fan of it and didn't like doing it...but she acknowledges it was valuable to her.  She doesn't change her own oil now..but could if needed.

My goal is to build capable and resilient young ladies.

So..when hearing that "the trip would be easier" with a man around..well..that defeats one of my purposes for the trip.

Adding another person (boyfriend or not) further complicates two sisters being able to "bond" over the trip.  Someone is going to be the third wheel...given that this is a boyfriend (I actually like the guy)...it's even more "natural" that D15 is the odd person out.

Plus..add in that she has issues with authority and that's a big ask of D24 to be in a parental role for a month.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Definitely not a sister bonding activity with the older daughter’s boyfriend along for the ride. Why do you suppose D15 is advocating so strongly for his presence?

I know of your family’s religious background and excuse me if this is too graphic, but I just don’t see that it’s a good idea if D15  is there while the couple is hooking up in a neighboring tent.

[kells76]

Maybe I missed something, but...

Do we know for sure that D24's boyfriend is, in fact, the "third person" that D15 hinted at being on the trip?

So, trying to put this together...

Any way to know if D24 and D15 both knew about the boyfriend coming along, before D15 asked "hey can I do this horse trip"?

D24 is an adult and runs her own life, and you know that the time has passed where you could "lay down the law", as it were, for D24's choices.

But do one or the other, or both of them, have this sense that "Dad wouldn't want D15 to go if Dad knew that Boyfriend were there"?

Wrapping my head around this...

[worriedStepmom]

With that information, I can see how D15 thinks she is being punished for choices her sister made.  Essentially, she is - she will lose out on something she really wanted to do because her sister decided to bring the boyfriend.

To me, this seems like a conversation to be had with D24 - you can go with D15 or you can go with bf, not with both.

If D24 prioritizes boyfriend over sister, that's on her, not on you.  I would likely look for something else that D15 could do that was fun to make up for her losing that opportunity.

[kells76]

With that information, I can see how D15 thinks she is being punished for choices her sister made.  Essentially, she is - she will lose out on something she really wanted to do because her sister decided to bring the boyfriend.

To me, this seems like a conversation to be had with D24 - you can go with D15 or you can go with bf, not with both.

If D24 prioritizes boyfriend over sister, that's on her, not on you.  I would likely look for something else that D15 could do that was fun to make up for her losing that opportunity.

Yeah, that makes sense to me.

Otherwise, you'll go down the rabbit hole of "it's not my fault that I can't go on the trip, it's D24's fault", and then trying to tie together that (A) you can't go on the trip because I don't want you on their date, and (B) you also can't go on the trip because of HW issues -- gets complicated.

Separate the things out.

If she needs some "outcomes" or "consequences" because of grades... don't make it the trip.

[formflier]

Definitely not a sister bonding activity with the older daughter’s boyfriend along for the ride. Why do you suppose D15 is advocating so strongly for his presence?

I know of your family’s religious background and excuse me if this is too graphic, but I just don’t see that it’s a good idea if D15  is there while the couple is hooking up in a neighboring tent.

Yep..even if they didn't touch each other for the entire trip...there is still someone "in the way" of sister bonding.

And here is the thing, this is the part of "planning" that drives me bonkers...perhaps you guys can help me express it better

Back in January or even maybe before that I gave an enthusiastic YES! to these two girls going on the trip.  I put some money towards it...went out of my way to buy a water tank...etc etc etc.

We had two girls that could go, a truck that could go, trailer that could go, two horses...just pack and go.

So all this angst about D24 boyfriend wanting to go and I asked again...so if I said yes tonight...could he go.  Que the tap dancing...well...the other horses didn't work out, we are going to look at another one this weekend that hasn't been ridden in years but we could probably get in shape in a couple of weeks and if that one doesn't work out we have another lead or two and we'll keep looking... (They leave in approximately 30 days)

So..it is entirely possible and I actually think likely that even if I said yes, there would be no third horse or even the ability to go.

Every bone in my body says this is a horrible way to plan and execute a trip of this magnitude and distance.

I'll look at other posts and make sure I'm answering all of this.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I'll weigh in on the horse angle. A horse that hasn't been ridden in years!    Get that horse in condition in 30 days.  

Your older daughter might be a good trainer, but even a very experienced trainer can work with a horse that seems like it has potential, only to discover "quirks" that render it unsuitable for a particular cause. The idea that taking a horse who hasn't been ridden for years on a month long camping expedition borders on animal abuse in my thinking.

And how good a rider/handler is the boyfriend?

You might have a horse that behaves really well in the arena, but goes psycho on a trail. The horses you have, you know what to expect, yet anything can happen with horses. 

[formflier]

Maybe I missed something, but...

Do we know for sure that D24's boyfriend is, in fact, the "third person" that D15 hinted at being on the trip?
 

For sure his name was mentioned.

In this context and that particular conversation she is referencing D15 wanted to go "look" at a horse..for educational purposes.

Smelling a pile of bull shizer...FF sat her down for a talk.

"Baby girl...I love your to gettem attitude and trying to better yourself as a horse person.  I agree this is a fine looking young Appy."

pause

"Here is the thing babe...one of my jobs as a Dad is to protect you from being in situations where you get your heart broken.  So we need to have extreme clarity about whether or not you are even considering the possibility of offering to buy or wanting to buy this horse.  Because I don't want you to fall in love with an animal and get your heart broken."  (pretty sure that's word for word what I said..I had written it out prior to the talk)

wait for it...

Sniffle...snort...few tears

"Ok babe...is the purpose of this "looking" for you go buy a horse.  Because if that is what you have in mind...that's a separate conversation about if Mommy and Daddy are ok with you buying an additional horse."

SNIFFLE...SNOORT...

"It's important in life to clarify with yourself first what you want...and then ask for what you want...things just go smoother when that happens."

wash rinse repeat on the sniffle and snort

Essentially she realized she had been busted.  The apparent plan was that if she had purchase the horse, got it to the barn then there would be no way for her parents (or just me) to undo it.)

She gets really emotional and in arguing her case/demanding another horse she utters the words "only a few Cs"

Which shifted me to a completely different conversation that I have already recounted.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

"Only a few Cs"? 

I don't know about your part of the country, but here, right now, the price of horses is so inflated. A few Cs sounds like a heap of trouble, and danger to me.

[formflier]

I'll weigh in on the horse angle. A horse that hasn't been ridden in years!    Get that horse in condition in 30 days. 

Your older daughter might be a good trainer, but even a very experienced trainer can work with a horse that seems like it has potential, only to discover "quirks" that render it unsuitable for a particular cause. The idea that taking a horse who hasn't been ridden for years on a month long camping expedition borders on animal abuse in my thinking.

And I agree...yet didn't even go down that line of thinking..because there was already so much more wrong with the entire presentation.

And..because that wasn't my primary focus..there is the possibility I didn't hear it correctly...or didn't get all the details right...but something along the lines of it is so cheap because...

And here is the thing..right now we have an Appy and a thoroughbred.  They are good horses...but could be challenging to even an average horse person because they have their quirks.

The Appy from time to time just doesn't want to load.  But she knows us..we know her and we have two options in the toolkit.

1.  We have time to move away from the trailer and "talk" to the horse about who is in charge.

2.  We don't have time and need to get loaded quickly..we have some tried and true methods to get this done...but we try to stay away from this.

The Thoroughbred is weird about who is around when he eats.  OK..really strong horse but I've heard that most of those type of horses are "different".  I mean..he refuses treats...

Anyway...I'm 100% confident the horses would serve my girls well (should they go)..but even introducing a new...well trained horse to a group with only a short time to get ready...well...you have to be on your toes.

Add in that the horse isn't well trained...

Best,

FF  

[formflier]

"Only a few Cs"? 

I don't know about your part of the country, but here, right now, the price of horses is so inflated. A few Cs sounds like a heap of trouble, and danger to me.

The "few Cs" was about D15 grades..."Cs" in the grade book, nothing to do with price of horse.

But it was confirmation to me that a girl that is earning Cs and hiding those from her Dad...doesn't need to be thinking about new horses.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I think I've addressed or clarified everything.  If not..let me know.

I appreciate you guys.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

The "few Cs" was about D15 grades..."Cs" in the grade book, nothing to do with price of horse.

    I wasn't thinking about grades, but it did occur to me that it would be odd that a 15 year old would know that slang for hundred dollar bills. But IDK teenage lingo.

[Cat Familiar]

One of my best friends is the premier horse trainer in this area. People come from miles around to bring her problem horses, usually ones that are very pretty or that they've acquired on the cheap. She regularly has to tell people that their horses are too dangerous for them to ride. I'm always suspicious of a bargain horse.

[Notwendy]

I'm confused because there are several issues bound together.

Personally, I would unpack them and have strong boundaries with them.

1) Grades, expect a certain dedication to grades. I agree that perfectionism isn't a good thing but if your D is not a C student then there's a difference between one C and several. You are the parent, you get to see the grades- if they are slipping then the #1 priority is bring grades up before anything else.

2) Horse trip. I would be concerned about 2 young women alone on a horse trip, one of them 15. They may be good riders but what if there's an injury, or the horse is injured, and general safety issues. Only one is an adult.  The 15 year old seems like a handful. I doubt the 24 year old has any real authority over her, and yes, some boy may show up.

3) Whatever the 24 year old and her BF are doing, it may not be appropriate for a 15 year old to accompany them.

4) She wants to buy a horse? She's 15 and making C's. You already know that horses are a lot of work. No horse till you see she can manage the time for grades and the time for horse.

This 15 year old is a feisty one when it comes to pushing your boundaries. I wouldn't be horsing around with boundaries with her. ( bad pun intended)

[formflier]

   I wasn't thinking about grades, but it did occur to me that it would be odd that a 15 year old would know that slang for hundred dollar bills. But IDK teenage lingo.

I chuckled when I realized where you were headed with that...

I love this place...

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I wouldn't be horsing around with boundaries with her. ( bad pun intended)

Notwendy goes gangsta with bad pun!

OK...I wish I were smarter and knew how to make it so that the video started at 1:29...but replace "that guy" with Notwendy...  

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

I'm curious about others thoughts on D15 and D23 going on a month long horse trip and feeling like such a trip is "punishment" and they wouldn't be "happy"

She may not even care if someone else comes along ... it could be as simple as testing FF.

This is coming on the heels of another test (D15 gets to picks her T, she doesn't feel safe, friend can't come over for the whole weekend, etc.)

She appears to be on a roll 

My plan for later today is to give her a chance to reaffirm the values and logic she wishes to apply to everyone (but for these purposes..it's really me and her) and then let her wrestle with the "trap" that she has fallen into.

You mention D15 could be BPD-in-training. And you've learned a lot about BPD logic. Do you expect that setting traps will lead to improved behavior?

If you apply love and logic approach, then that means clarifying what she (or you) did wrong.

It could be as simple as "I wasn't clear so I'm going to think on this up here (points to head) and when mom + I are ready to roll out the plan, we will. Maybe even get it written down so everyone understands. You made me aware that I need to be more explicit, thanks. This is a good lesson here about why contracts exist."

That seems more like a natural consequence to her claim that you misled her.

The other plan seems more likely to engage the BPD aspects of her personality. It's not right or wrong, good or bad per se. It's a little more dad-up, D15 down which could launch more testing since she'll be driven to get herself into a one-up position.

As a result I had cancelled her ability to do extra work for money around the house and restricted other activities..so she only had to focus on school work.

That seems like a natural consequence.

I would say things like "since it's just one C and you are doing good in the rest of school..it's important to keep this in perspective"  She agreed with me I had a point about keeping it in perspective.

This suggests ... you might be getting lured down into the weeds at D15's level, which is a win for her. What would the 30,000 foot view look like?

S19 did something similar with online classes at community college. He was not forthcoming about failing classes when things went online. When bad grades came to light, I acknowledged how hard it is to admit stuff, and now that it was out there, it made it easer for us to come up with a plan to clean things up.

He may be different than D15, but he does have a shaky sense of self and *omits* things he's not proud of. The thing that works for us is me rewarding good behavior (him fessing up) followed by joint planning on how to clean up the mess. It's taken years to get there with 80 percent success rate on him coming clean pretty quick. The other 20 can take some sleuthing on my part, and he's starting to trust that when he comes clean we just get down to business.

It might be different for someone with BPD traits, but S19 can even come forward with a plan now when he messes up because he knows this is what's expected.