The email I just received. I'm in shock.

[Sunfl0wer]

Just to bring up a diff perspective here...

I like where FF is going with this.  I like the idea of agreeing to his requests... .IF XYZ.  And leave the ownership on him to walk away from the deal or not.

However, I am concerned as I do not know the parties involved... .who will know of this mediation?  Is doesn't sound official.  Can it be thrown in your face by his lawyer?  I guess my concern is if a judge was ordering parenting time to  be shared equally... .he would not base it on DV unless the DV was harmful to the children.  I worry that a judge will see that you actually WERE willing to give equal parenting time... .and your basis for allowing it... .would be dismissed and seen as personal.  :)V is not in itself a reason to limit parenting time.  So the idea that you would... .may appear spiteful by you for demanding something "irrelevant" to the child's relationship with dad.

Depending on your circumstances... .this could come back to bite you in the bum?

Maybe also post in legal board?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

Ok, so one thing I am unclear about. I just spoke to the DV program director in our county. She said that the program is 48 weeks and usually court mandated.

How is me asking him to do this an "equal" request?

And how can I carefully ask him to do this?

I'm sorry if I seem foggy and naive, I'm just... .cautious.

It's not an equal request... .but it is a pathway to two equal partners being in a r/s.


Equal partners share children... .50/50.   Do you agree to this?  He obviously does... .I do.

Equal partners do not intimidate... .hit... threaten... etc etc each other.  :)o you agree with this... .I do.  If he does not agree with this... .don't react  But... .let MC clarify his position.  :)on't make any decisions tomorrow.  :)on't change any childcare tomorrow.  Wait for him to start the program.

Take copies of the police report and sentencing with you.  I'd be reluctant to bring them out... .but if there is complete denial.  Ask him to help you understand the police report... .hand him and the MC copies...  Sit... listen.

48 weeks is quite a program.  That is good... .

Might not be reasonable to hold all changes until graduation.  I'll have to think about that... others can weigh in.  Maybe a change or two at 1/3 of program (with good reports)... .another at 2/3rds (with good reports)... .and then equal at graduation.

How does this sound to you?  

What questions do you have?

How did you feel about your discussion with the DV people?

FF

[Butterfly12]

He would FLIP if I made him wait. Completely flip. Go file for divorce. Because he is prepared to "get his kids anyway he can."

If I bring up the DV and tell him if x then y, He will loose it.

[formflier]

Also, he denies it all. Even to the counselor. He says it's all me. How can I do this?

I almost feel like I should just go and listen tomorrow... .and save this for the next time. Refuse to sign a thing and change a thing until I DO get what I need as well. But tomorrow just Listen. Show up.

I think you need to lay out your side tomorrow.  Most of the time will be spent listening... and understanding... .focus on the email.  :)O NOT add extra issues.  No rabbit trails.

Once you are able to express the email to him in your words... .and he agrees you have it... .you understand it... .and that you have the entire thing (nothing else)... .it's showtime for you.

Boil that down to one or two sentences... .practice them tonight.  You need to be able to get them out of your mouth on autopilot.  Maybe write them down... .try to avoid reading them... .but do that if you need.

FF attempt 1

"Honey, I'm so glad you are seeking a solution that results in an equal relationship in all facets of our life.  That is what I want as well.  I am able to agree to ALL of your proposed solutions after you complete (name the program).  Are we in agreement on the solution to an equal relationship." (hush... .relax... .listen... .slow down... .don't jump on an agreement... or disagreement... .slow down)

note... .focus on using the word solution.  Remember... .you "agree" to his proposal... .you don't "grant" him things.

Agreement is from an equal.  Granting things comes from a person of power.

I wrote and rewrote it a few times... .please put your words in there... .or see if you can use what I put down.

It should take you about 30 seconds to say it.

FF

[formflier]

He would FLIP if I made him wait. Completely flip. Go file for divorce. Because he is prepared to "get his kids anyway he can."

If I bring up the DV and tell him if x then y, He will loose it.

That is his choice... .he very well may loose it.  Don't make decisions based on him loosing it... .

If he starts to loose it... it is MCs role to keep things calm... not yours... .focus on listening and not arguing... .let MC calm the situation.  

FF

[Butterfly12]

Isn't bringing up the past a rabbit tail?

[Cat Familiar]

I think in your posts that you mentioned that he at one point was physically abusive to your oldest child. Correct me if this is wrong.

If so, it is materially relevant to custody arrangements.

Please don't fall for the "it will never happen again" or the "you made me do it" or "if you weren't so [fill in the blank] I wouldn't get so angry" or whatever excuse he can come up for his behavior to try to pin the responsibility on you.

It's not your fault. He did it. He needs to take responsibility for his behavior and anger.

[Butterfly12]

My oldest child is not his. Although he is what she knows as a parent, he's been there her whole life.

He does not have custody rights to her though.

[formflier]

Isn't bringing up the past a rabbit tail?

No... it's not.

There is nuance here... .

Rabbit trail:  Last year my husband thought xyz... . (I've had this said to me in MC... .just let it go)

Critical issue:  Two summers ago I stood between my wife and D7 (I think that was her age then) to stop a beating, CPS got involved, family counseling was mandated and our family improved dramatically.

This actually happened in my life... .not exactly same as your DV... .but an issue that can't be "forgotten".  

From time to time my wife will rewrite history some... but she doesn't deny the event... .her role is sometimes fuzzy.  

Focus on the behavior... .not what they say.  She completed the counseling/treatment with me... and she no longer uses corporal punishment  Neither do I.

There is about zero chance a professional child counselor will ever recommend we start using corporal punishment again (given our history).  That is the only way I would ever go along with that coming back into our house.  

So, I "won" in that I got rid of the "beatings" or corporal punishment... .by sort of a flanking thing.

I never made her say she was wrong and should never do that (which would be a "direct assault" and be argumentative.

Even the family therapist guy focused on "a better way"... .rather than saying her was was "wrong".

I hope this gives some perspective on my history... .and again... it's not the same as your situation... .

CPS rulings are not as clear cut as a guilty verdict.

FF

[formflier]

I think in your posts that you mentioned that he at one point was physically abusive to your oldest child. Correct me if this is wrong.

Yes or no... .?  

FF

[Butterfly12]

Yes, he has been verbally abusive to her her entire life.

So in this I don't try and get him to admit anything, simply say, if you do THIS, I will do THAT. No blaming, no push/pull... .

Sorry... .is that what you are saying?

[formflier]

Yes, he has been verbally abusive to her her entire life.

So in this I don't try and get him to admit anything, simply say, if you do THIS, I will do THAT. No blaming, no push/pull... .

Sorry... .is that what you are saying?

Yes... .solutions that are based on action.

Solution... .solution... solution... .

take my few sentences I proposed... .read them aloud... .then try to say them without reading.  How does that seem.  How long did it take to get that out?  Seriously... time it...

FF

FF

[Butterfly12]

He's going to wig out.

He doesn't believe he is a "batterer" therefore should not be "forced" to take a batterers intervention course. He said this to his lawyer when the court suggested it.

[formflier]

He's going to wig out.

He doesn't believe he is a "batterer" therefore should not be "forced" to take a batterers intervention course. He said this to his lawyer when the court suggested it.

He is not being forced... he has a choice.

You are not being force... .you have a choice.

Very likely he will wig out.

If he wigs out tomorrow... .that is not a defeat.  Defeat (IMO) is letting the DV go.  Perhaps that would better be called surrender. 

Listen... .   you didn't choose this fight.  But I assure you that you are in it.  Big breath... you can do this!

FF

[Butterfly12]

Thank you so much. My mom thinks your advice is amazing... .You really saved my tail today. I'll rehearse, and let you know how it goes... .

IF I sleep... .

[Cat Familiar]

My experience is that through not holding my husband accountable for DV, it happened again and again and again.

You don't want your children to be affected by this, I'm sure.

The arrest should have been a wake up call for him, but instead he chooses to blame you.

My concern is that it could happen again if he doesn't get treatment for his anger issues.

[Butterfly12]

My experience is that through not holding my husband accountable for DV, it happened again and again and again.

You don't want your children to be affected by this, I'm sure.

The arrest should have been a wake up call for him, but instead he chooses to blame you.

My concern is that it could happen again if he doesn't get treatment for his anger issues.

That's my concern too. It's so amazing to talk to someone who has been there. Thank you. Your being here is so valuable... .Thank you.

[formflier]

Thank you so much. My mom thinks your advice is amazing... .You really saved my tail today. I'll rehearse, and let you know how it goes... .

IF I sleep... .

Do the best you can... .sleeping... .rehearsing... .actually saying it.  

You will do great... .

This is high stakes stuff... .it's normal to be nervous... .to be anxious... .

Remember... .you have... .and are making the choices to have a healthy family that is free of DV and the abusive behavior that goes with it (a nod to the older child and his verbal behavior towards you).  :)on't hide that choice... .don't blame him for his choices.  It will be very tempting to do that... .it would be very satisfying to do that... .

Very few solutions come from blame... .

Solutions... .solutions... .solutions... .(focus on that)



You shine the light on your choice... .

Let him shine the light on his choice... .

FF

[Butterfly12]

Sorry, one more thing... .

How can I word "batterers intervention" in a way that won't instantly trigger him?

Because it will. And he will shut down then and there.

[Sunfl0wer]

Thank you for clarifying some details.

Srry... .i didn not read the back story.

[formflier]

Sorry, one more thing... .

How can I word "batterers intervention" in a way that won't instantly trigger him?

Because it will. And he will shut down then and there.

Why would those words need to be used?  Is that the name of the course? 

I'm assuming that is a name of the course... .so... you would want to say "complete 48 week course for domestic violence put on by (name the agency)"

I'm ok with dropping "batterer"... .I'm a bit reluctant to drop the dv term... .but I'm open

The key is that he attends an participates in the course... .not that he gets the words right tomorrow.

FF

[GaGrl]

Anger Management or Domestic Violence, at a minimum description.

[formflier]

 

If I don't get to post again or respond to you before you go... .

You can do this!   

You know your message... .keep practicing... .keep it short... .to the point. 

FF

[Butterfly12]

well.

The session happened.

And I was steamrolled.

I cried. And although I said I agreed with wanting equal parenting, I couldn't bring up the DV course. I feel defeated.

And the counselor told him he needed to be more empathetic with me.

The bizarre thing that happened was as soon as we got there- and then at the end of the session- he was being all "buddy/buddy" with me. He even asked m if I wanted to go have a cup of coffee with him after the session. I feel like it's all part of the trip... .I can't believe it, right... .? No hope in that, right?

[formflier]

 

Please tell me that you agreed with his wants and desires... .and didn't actually agree to change the parenting?

Can you give some details of how you were steamrolled?  He said this, you said this... .counselor said this.

 

FF

[GaGrl]

If you didn't sign a mediation agreement in a state that holds you to that signed document, you can simply say that upon more thought, you have changed your mind and require completion of a DV program prior to moving to a equal parenting agreement.

If you are steamrolled, this really indicates you need a lawyer with you during conversations like this.  I know he doesn't want lawyers involved -- can you see why?

[Cat Familiar]

I'm sorry you were steamrolled.   

These patterns between the two of you have had years to become habit. Reading his email, I'm not surprised that he was able to overwhelm you.

I sense that you play fair and try to give him the benefit of doubt.

Whereas if he's like my ex-husband, he pulls out all the stops and turns everything to his advantage. Plus, if you're anything like me, I run at a much slower pace so when people talk fast and try to divert my attention, they're able to manipulate me easier than I'd like.

I have to slow things down so as to not feel like I'm dodging speeding cars on a freeway as a pedestrian. (I need to keep this in mind as I have to give a deposition in a civil lawsuit, where I'm expecting that the defense counsel might try a fishing expedition to somehow implicate me. My strategy is to put on my Asperger's personality and speak slowly, not be helpful at all and just answer the questions they ask. I'm not looking forward to it.)

Anyway, I'm so sorry about your experience with your husband. I have a sense that you're seeing a side of him that may not have been as clear previously.

[Butterfly12]

well, FF, what happened was we went in and I handed the counselor a copy of the email to read. He did, and then asked me how it made me feel. The session then turned into the thing I thought it would- I agree to his terms or he goes about "getting what he wants another way." I voiced that I was afraid that he would try and take my children away from me, simply because that is what he had said the day he was arrested. Which was denied.

He stood up, took my hand, looked me in the eyes, with tears rolling down his cheeks, said he would never ever take our children away. When i called the counselor after the session, the counselor said this was the first session that he has seen between my husband and I that held even an ounce of good possible outcome. The counselor said that his main concern at this point is my husband's blaming and inability to see any piece of where I am coming from.

From our counselor's view, overcoming this piece is what needs to happen to progress in any capacity. Any at all. And what I agreed to, effective soon, is to allow our two year old to spend one night with him and see how it goes. She has never been away from me for a night. Ever. And she still is breastfeeding. The longest she has been away from me ever is 10 hours. This Friday will be 34 hours. We'll see how that goes.

In any case, it is my hope that he takes my agreement to try this- attempt his desire of "equal parenting." When in the session I voiced that all I have ever hoped for is an equal coparent. Who would ever want to parent three children alone? Ever?

Sigh. And that's it.

[formflier]

 

OK... so the "entirety" of the email was not agreed to.

I think this will be ok.  DV still needs to be addressed... .and I would ask you to consider something.

No more moving things "in his direction", without some things moving in yours.

You can say no.

Please don't take this as me saying you did anything wrong... .I don't think you did.

These things are messy... .you have a long standing pattern with him (I would guess)... .and that will take a while to change.

He has things to do to change that.

More importantly... .you have things to do (and mindsets to change) in order to change that

 

This will be ok... .

How often do you see your counselor?

Tell me about "I agree to his terms or he gets what he wants another way"

I need details about that to understand it.  Did he say that?

FF

[Butterfly12]

When we were in the session, what he said was that if I don't agree to his mediation terms, he will take it to court (ie: divorce) and make it happen in another way. All the while I am saying that I don't think divorce is the answer for us, and that I believe we can get to a better place within our family and make it through. He alludes to a belief it this, but then always backs it with- "but just in case this gets taken to divorce court."

We see our counselor biweekly.